Druid//swordsage: Embracing the Inner Kung Fu Bear. How do I make it work?

[Agamemmnoth]

So part of my gestalt build will be going into sword sage.

Druid 5/planar shepherd10/druid 5//factotum 8/ swordsage something/ something

I'm about to hit lv 9 looking at some of these maneuvers and I'm a little underwhelmed. For instance

Ruby Nightmare Blade is a standard action that doubles one attack with a successful concentration attack. why would I use that vs. a normal full round action as a fleshraker or a bear? Divine surge looks better with 8d8, but even then it's a standard action and I can get higher using a full attack easily. I can see using those if I do a move action and then use one or if I burn enough inspiration points to get another standard action. So what am I missing here? I'll admit I'm not a great min/maxer yet but why are all of these standard action? Either I'm looking at the wrong maneuvers or I'm missing something. If they could be used in addition to my full round action then hell yeah they'd be nice. I just don't see any of these competing with a venomfired fleshraker or dire polar bear who is using his iterative attacks (with a fanged ring and monks belt) as unarmed strikes and then using the natural attacks as secondary attacks. (these are just a few examples.)

So tldr what am I missing?

[thedmring]

So part of my gestalt build will be going into sword sage.

Druid 5/planar shepherd10/druid 5



You're playing a planar shepherd and you're worried about levels of sword sage? :smallsigh:

[eggynack]

You're playing a planar shepherd and you're worried about levels of sword sage? :smallsigh:
So... you're saying that you don't have an answer to the problem posed. This was truly a useful and productive post.

In any case, given that you're in a gestalt, and that druid should be providing most of your active junk, you should be looking to swordsage to give you passive benefits, as well as the rare pieces of utility not provided by druid. Thus, important benefits of swordsage include the initiative bonus, which is helpfully untyped, the AC bonus based on wis mod, which tends to be pretty useful, along with stances, which are just always on. From maneuvers, you should be looking for stuff like the shadow jaunt line, which helps the druid out with tactical teleportation (druids do get some, but not all that much, unless you take exalted wild shape), and the save replacers, which are just amazing. You want things that don't eat up too many actions, because druids can already fill up all of their actions with stuff, even when they get a lot of actions. If you keep that stuff in mind, then you should do fine.

[Agamemmnoth]

So... you're saying that you don't have an answer to the problem posed. This was truly a useful and productive post.

In any case, given that you're in a gestalt, and that druid should be providing most of your active junk, you should be looking to swordsage to give you passive benefits, as well as the rare pieces of utility not provided by druid. Thus, important benefits of swordsage include the initiative bonus, which is helpfully untyped, the AC bonus based on wis mod, which tends to be pretty useful, along with stances, which are just always on. From maneuvers, you should be looking for stuff like the shadow jaunt line, which helps the druid out with tactical teleportation (druids do get some, but not all that much, unless you take exalted wild shape), and the save replacers, which are just amazing. You want things that don't eat up too many actions, because druids can already fill up all of their actions with stuff, even when they get a lot of actions. If you keep that stuff in mind, then you should do fine.

Shadow jaunt line looks great. Any advice on stances I should look out for? I don't suppose the monks belt stacks with the sword sages ac bonus. should I ride factotum 8/sword sage 12? or ditch sword sage at some point for warshaper or Master of Many forms.

Thanks for butting in eggy.

[thedmring]

So... you're saying that you don't have an answer to the problem posed. This was truly a useful and productive post.

In any case, given that you're in a gestalt, and that druid should be providing most of your active junk, you should be looking to swordsage to give you passive benefits, as well as the rare pieces of utility not provided by druid. Thus, important benefits of swordsage include the initiative bonus, which is helpfully untyped, the AC bonus based on wis mod, which tends to be pretty useful, along with stances, which are just always on. From maneuvers, you should be looking for stuff like the shadow jaunt line, which helps the druid out with tactical teleportation (druids do get some, but not all that much, unless you take exalted wild shape), and the save replacers, which are just amazing. You want things that don't eat up too many actions, because druids can already fill up all of their actions with stuff, even when they get a lot of actions. If you keep that stuff in mind, then you should do fine.
I don't see the point in people asking all of these questions instead of serious research. Some of the guys playing druids follow you like a mother hen. I simply tell life as it is.

[eggynack]

Shadow jaunt line looks great. Any advice on stances I should look out for? I don't suppose the monks belt stacks with the sword sages ac bonus. should I ride factotum 8/sword sage 12? or ditch sword sage at some point for warshaper or Master of Many forms.

Can't say I know all that much on the count of good stances. I should probably do more research into these gestalt questions at some point, because it seems like it's been coming up a lot lately. As for the AC bonus, the normal version would not stack, as monk's belt applies if you're unarmored, and the swordsage one applies with light armor. Technically speaking, this still applies if you go with unarmed swordsage, though it seems unlikely that any reasonable person would hold to that. In that case, they probably would not stack, as they're named the same, and do the same thing.

To the last question, I wouldn't ditch for warshaper, because that just feels like a waste of time. Master of many forms is better, but it's a bit feat intensive, and you'd only be picking it up for the last five levels, so this would be after your focus has already shifted towards outsider forms. MoMF might be of limited utility as a result, unless you're using a plane with weak offerings along those lines. Even in that case, you're not getting very far into the progression, only reaching fey (with vermin already available cheaply elsewhere). You might be better off just spending those two feats on aberration wild shape, as those forms are excellent.

Edit:
I don't see the point in people asking all of these questions instead of serious research. Some of the guys playing druids follow you like a mother hen. I simply tell life as it is.
The point in asking questions is because sometimes other people know more about a topic than you do. It's a highly likely outcome, given the fact that there's a ridiculous number of D&D books out there. If "telling life as it is," just means popping into random threads, and criticizing people in a completely arbitrary manner, then it's not a thing that I seek any part of. It just seems pointlessly mean spirited.

[Agamemmnoth]

So I assume getting rid of the monks belt and fanged ring would be a good idea and pick up some light armor. Would that be worth loosing the iterative unarmed attacks? You brought up a good point on the warshaper and master of many forms. Guess I need to dig in to tob more. Thanks so far.

Edit: realm is the dream realm. I couldn't resist the 10:1 ratio.

BTW I don't even pay attention to thedmring. She insulted shadowseve whom I chat with via pm every now and then.

[eggynack]

So I assume getting rid of the monks belt and fanged ring would be a good idea and pick up some light armor. Would that be worth loosing the iterative unarmed attacks?
I think that just going with unarmed swordsage instead has a chance of solving both problems. It provides the monk unarmed fighting progression, which is nifty, and it may just grant the monk AC bonus straight up.

[Agamemmnoth]

I think that just going with unarmed swordsage instead has a chance of solving both problems. It provides the monk unarmed fighting progression, which is nifty, and it may just grant the monk AC bonus straight up.
Really stupid question.
What's the difference between armed and unarmed progression? How does it provide the monks unarmed progression?

[eggynack]

Really stupid question.
What's the difference between armed and unarmed progression? How does it provide the monks unarmed progression?
I don't think there is such a thing as an armed progression. That's basically just having weapons. As for unarmed, it's a bit vague, but my suspicion is that it means everything in the unarmed strike ability of the monk. It could also feasibly mean just the damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Most strikes being standard actions means you can move and still do respectable damage without getting pounce. They don't really compete with a wildshaped druids full attack routine.

If you want to get more damage for that out of your swordsage levels Tiger Claw has the Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose maneuvers to add more attacks.
Diamond Mind's Time Stands Still does the same but it comes rather late. Desert Wind has the Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade line to add fire damage to all your attacks. Stone Dragon's Mountain Hammer is useful against high DR enemies and to destroy walls and other high hardness objects.

For utility the Shadow Hand teleports were already mentioned. The Diamond Mind save boosters likewise. There's also Leaping Flame, which has it's uses if you focus on melee, and the Searing Charge maneuver, both in Desert Wind. Setting Sun offers Counter Charge at level 1 which is good for almost everyone, because being charged sucks. Shadow Blade brings Cloak of Deception for swift invisibility to the table. Tiger Claw's Sudden Leap is pretty much pounce-lite, allowing you to move and still take a full round action.

For your first stance i'm a big fan of Step of the Wind, but it's usefulness depends a lot on your DM. Island of Blades is especially useful if you have more melee in the party but it also works with just your animal companion. Child of Shadow does not synergize well with wanting to make full attacks, at least at first. There's several options to later get the required movement without wasting your actions, and concealment is always good.

For the later stances, Assassins Stance is probably the one most people take. It doesn't add much by itself but qualifies you for all sorts of goodies that require sneak attack.
Leaping Dragon Stance is the stance of choice if you focus on Tiger Claw maneuvers. It's movement related benefits aren't worth much to someone who can wildshape, but it's still fun and thematic.
The other notable stances are Stance of Alacrity (action economy), Shifting Defense and Wolf Pack Tactics (free movement). The rest are either underwhelming (pretty much all of Stone Dragon) or already covered by your druid side (Hearing the Air, Flame's Blessing, most other utility stances).

Also, a single level dip of Warblade at level 9 or later gets you both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. If you can fit it into your build you should take it.

[shadowseve]

I don't think there is such a thing as an armed progression. That's basically just having weapons. As for unarmed, it's a bit vague, but my suspicion is that it means everything in the unarmed strike ability of the monk. It could also feasibly mean just the damage.

now here's an interesting question.
BAB wise if you took that the unarmed progression gave you flurry of blows, which is seems that it would since it literally states, "To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression", would your flurry of blows be +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 since your bab from being a druid would be the +15/+10/+5? I'm guessing that your unarmed damage would be 2d6 for medium if he went the factotum 8/sword sage 12 route.

[eggynack]

now here's an interesting question.
BAB wise if you took that the unarmed progression gave you flurry of blows, which is seems that it would since it literally states, "To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression", would your flurry of blows be +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 since your bab from being a druid would be the +15/+10/+5? I'm guessing that your unarmed damage would be 2d6 for medium if he went the factotum 8/sword sage 12 route.
I don't think the ability grants flurry at all. The line you've bolded has no real rules relevance, especially because the fantastic moves and strikes likely come from the swordsage, rather than the monk. Anything that is granted by a monk would probably fall under the monklike header, rather than the with section.

[shadowseve]

I don't think the ability grants flurry at all. The line you've bolded has no real rules relevance, especially because the fantastic moves and strikes likely come from the swordsage, rather than the monk. Anything that is granted by a monk would probably fall under the monklike header, rather than the with section.

So then your thinking it only gives the damage which would be the 2d6? Granted that would be more balanced.

[eggynack]

So then your thinking it only gives the damage which would be the 2d6? Granted that would be more balanced.
Seems probable, though you may also get the other odd aspects of the unarmed strike ability, like improved unarmed strike, and the choice of lethal and non-lethal damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So then your thinking it only gives the damage which would be the 2d6? Granted that would be more balanced.

I think the safest interpretation would be what's under "Unarmed Strike" in the monk class description. So, Improved Unarmed Strike, full strength bonus on all unarmed attacks and increased damage by class level. Flurry of Blows is a seperate class feature, so you wouldn't get that any more than you get monk bonus feats.

[shadowseve]

Seems probable, though you may also get the other odd aspects of the unarmed strike ability, like improved unarmed strike, and the choice of lethal and non-lethal damage.

now would your natural attacks count as unarmed as well? that would increase the damage from 2d4 for a dire brown bear's claw two 2d6. My guess is no.

[eggynack]

now would your natural attacks count as unarmed as well? that would increase the damage from 2d4 for a dire brown bear's claw two 2d6. My guess is no.
I'm doubtful, especially as having natural weapons explicitly makes you armed. Unarmed strikes may be natural attacks (sometimes, for some purposes anyway), but that doesn't make all natural attacks into unarmed strikes.

[shadowseve]

I'm doubtful, especially as having natural weapons explicitly makes you armed. Unarmed strikes may be natural attacks (sometimes, for some purposes anyway), but that doesn't make all natural attacks into unarmed strikes.

That was what I thought. Sword sage makes an interesting choice. I'm at a similar level in my campaign as Agamemmnoth. Might be worth my while to ditch factotum myself at 8 and go swordsadge 12 myself.

[Agamemmnoth]

This has been a lot of help. Thanks guys. so factotum 8/swordsage 12.

[Endarire]

Swordsage in this case is probably most useful for its swift actions, immediate actions, and stances (which are also swift actions to activate). I like Diamond Mind, Desert Wind, and Shadow Hand for a Swordsage. Shadow Blade may be a very useful feat for you since it gives you your DEX bonus to damage with select weapons in addition to STR (check the Tome of Battle full feat description).

How are you being challenged in this campaign as a Dal Quor Planar Shepherd? What are you facing? What's this campaign about?

[Agamemmnoth]

Swordsage in this case is probably most useful for its swift actions, immediate actions, and stances (which are also swift actions to activate). I like Diamond Mind, Desert Wind, and Shadow Hand for a Swordsage. Shadow Blade may be a very useful feat for you since it gives you your DEX bonus to damage with select weapons in addition to STR (check the Tome of Battle full feat description).

How are you being challenged in this campaign as a Dal Quor Planar Shepherd? What are you facing? What's this campaign about?

Well I don't have the bubble yet, not for one more level lol. I'm itching for it though. So far it's been pretty standard stuff though I imagine at lv 10 it's going to get crazy.

[Nightraiderx]

Also in a full attack action using pounce you can use your iterate unarmed strikes first and your natural weapons
as secondary natural weapons. So while you cannot replace your claws with unarmed strike damage you can however add those
unarmed strikes to your attack routine.

And then there's the dragon magazine feat beast strike which allows claw damage to be added to unarmed strike damage, so there's that.