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Kol Korran
2014-06-08, 12:42 PM
Hi there, I'm worried about a situation which cropped up in my gaming group.

Our group has played together through several years now, and has built some dynamic. We played some campaigns, tried a few systems here and there, and generally have a good time.

As we decided to try Fate Core, one of the players suggested bringing his girlfriend into the group, since this was a light-rules game, and might be easy for her to try. She never played a roleplay game before, but watched us for one session, and was greatly intrigued. We of course agreed, and she proved quit a roleplayer, funny, and a new spirit to our group.

The Fate experience lasted for 9 sessions, after which the group decided that they prefer the more crunchy D&D game. The new player didn't know what it was about, so decided to try. Long story short, we chose to run one of the PF adventure paths, mostly due to lack of time for me to prepare.

This proved problematic however. She was struggling with some of the fate mechanics, and D&D like games proved much more of a hassle. We helped her, but also didn't want to make the decisions for her (Though regrettably sometimes we were a bit pushy in our advice). Non the less she seemed to enjoy, but frustrated at not quite understanding how this all worked out. She plays a fairly simple character mechanically- a ranger with no animal companion, and oddly enough proves to be one of the most effective characters none the less.

But she didn't seem to make progress learning the rules much. I think this is mostly due to the fact that we meet only once a month or so, so what she learned at one session gets forgotten till the next. I tried to help her and made two "mini teaching sessions" with her to get comfortable with the numbers on the sheet, her possibilities, actions, powers and such. This seemed to work so far. Still some things she didn't understand, but far fewer. We made a rule at our table that when she seeks to understand how something works the game stops, no pressure, and we explain, but she makes the decision. Seemed ok.

So why all this long story? mainly to understand the people involved I guess. But here is my real problem. The other players chose this adventure path in a large part also due to touching on new things and new rule system they didn't do before. This is a big part of what draws them. In the last session however, due to the timing of the adventure two new rule systems were brought forth at once: Mythic rules (Which are like taking a second class on top of yours) and mass combat rules (Homebrew based on the PF rules). This seemed to overwhelm her and she seemed a bit distressed, and quite frustrated. The rules are something to digest even to the new players, but I fear this may be a breaking point for her.

Measures I've taken so far to reduce problems:
1. her boyfriend and another player have been helping her with the mythic rules.
2. I made the rules quite simplistic on purpose, with making each army unit somewhat like a character.
3. I intend to run a practice mock battle with the armies, just to get people comfy, to understand the basics.
4. I've written them a word document that explains things in a less-mechanical way (There is another doc for that for those who wish to read), with focus on roleplay aspects, which I hope will appeal to her as to the rest of my players.

But I'd like to hear if you guys have another idea. One the one hand I don't want to complicate her gaming experience. She's an excellent roleplayer and great fun, and I don't want to see her fun lessened. On the other hand the players have been etching for something new, for a new experience, and have been waiting for this quite a bit.

Do you have any suggestions or ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Kol.

HammeredWharf
2014-06-09, 02:36 AM
Sounds difficult. You cornered yourself by starting to play a rules-heavy system and introducing extra homebrew into the mix. Is there a way she could avoid those mass combat rules altogether and control only her character? For example, in my games I usually take a more narrativist approach to mass combat by letting the players come up with a battleplan and letting them control their characters while it's on. Does your homebrew allow that sort of thing or does every player have to control some units directly like in a wargame?

I don't think Mythic rules should pose a huge problem, but then again, I've only skimmed through them.

avr
2014-06-09, 03:53 AM
Is there any way to run a side quest for a smaller group or just for her at a different time of the month for a few sessions to familiarise her with the rules? Alternately, could you put off the mass combat for a few sessions to give her a chance to learn the rest?

Kol Korran
2014-06-09, 04:12 AM
Sounds difficult. You cornered yourself by starting to play a rules-heavy system and introducing extra homebrew into the mix. Is there a way she could avoid those mass combat rules altogether and control only her character? For example, in my games I usually take a more narrativist approach to mass combat by letting the players come up with a battleplan and letting them control their characters while it's on. Does your homebrew allow that sort of thing or does every player have to control some units directly like in a wargame?

I don't think Mythic rules should pose a huge problem, but then again, I've only skimmed through them.
The players can act as their characters alone, if they wish to. I integrated this option mainly because I wanted them to be able to do stuff "not army bound" while in the army. So that may be a good way to do stuff. Good point. Though the other players sought out the large scale mass combat specifically, so that will be played. I just hope she doesn't feel left out. I want her to be brought in, not feel left out.Not sure how much I can work on it, but I'll see.

I'm not sure about the mythic rules either. We just started with them and learning them as we go.


Is there any way to run a side quest for a smaller group or just for her at a different time of the month for a few sessions to familiarise her with the rules? Alternately, could you put off the mass combat for a few sessions to give her a chance to learn the rest? We play about once every 4-5 weeks. I don't have a time to run a full fledged side quest. But I may be able to run a short mini-session for her to get the know of the rules like I did before witthe basic rules. Hmmm... might be worth soem though.

HammeredWharf
2014-06-09, 04:19 AM
Though the other players sought out the large scale mass combat specifically, so that will be played. I just hope she doesn't feel left out. I want her to be brought in, not feel left out.Not sure how much I can work on it, but I'll see.

She a ranger, so she could plan some scouting/sabotage missions that occur simultaneously and interact with the big battles, but focus on smaller teams of specialists. For example, her team could have X rounds to sabotage the enemy artillery. The artillery units she successfully sabotaged don't come to reinforce the main army on the mass combat battlefield.

hymer
2014-06-09, 04:49 AM
Some random thoughts:
Is it too late to hold or scrap the current campaign and start one that will do better? Can you recruit the boyfriend to make a coaching session or two for her between regular sessions? Since there's homebrew involved, can you homebrew something that is more straightforward for her specifically? Could the other players agree to tone the mass combat down or leave it be entirely - at least until she's mastered one system and is ready to begin learning the next?

Kol Korran
2014-06-09, 06:12 AM
She a ranger, so she could plan some scouting/sabotage missions that occur simultaneously and interact with the big battles, but focus on smaller teams of specialists. For example, her team could have X rounds to sabotage the enemy artillery. The artillery units she successfully sabotaged don't come to reinforce the main army on the mass combat battlefield.
Her character nd her boyfriend's character are also playing a sort of advance scouting force, and may have small missions before battles, either to gather info, or sabotage, as you suggested.

But I didn't think of perhaps having such missions INSIDE big battles. Hmmm... this has some interesting potential! Thanks!


Some random thoughts:
Is it too late to hold or scrap the current campaign and start one that will do better?
Most likely it is. The party allready invested quite a bit in these characters and game, and they quite want to see how it goes on it seems... We play rarely, so we try to stick to a campaign if possible, too much switching might be difficult.

Can you recruit the boyfriend to make a coaching session or two for her between regular sessions? He allready helps her (Made most of her initial character, and he also advises her on further choices). But it's an interestign concept, perhaps between the two of us we can find a more focused approach.

Since there's homebrew involved, can you homebrew something that is more straightforward for her specifically? I've tried to make the homebrew fairly simplistic on the most part specifically for that. I don't think it's that complicated, I think it's more a matter of just having another load on her plate, that puts her off.
Could the other players agree to tone the mass combat down or leave it be entirely - at least until she's mastered one system and is ready to begin learning the next? Hmmmm, I will ask about that. Perhaps I can persuade them to let it go for awhile. One option will be to return to the fairly boring rules of the PF mass combat as presented in this module, which are, to be frank, quite crappy. Then we'll just focus on the parts of the PCs acting s a normal adventuring group. I just feels this will rob the party of the experience they have been waiting for- commanding armies and leading them to battle and such... Which is my problem. I think I will try to breach the subject again.

ElenionAncalima
2014-06-09, 07:23 AM
The only advice I can give is to make sure you have one person focusing on teaching her the rules...and make sure everyone else backs off unless they absolutely have to add something.

What I often find is that experienced players love jumping in and giving the new player advice. However this sometimes results in the player being overwhelmed with information, that half the time they didn't ask for or need to deal with what was in front of them. This can serve to make the game feel a lot harder than it actaully is.

Sometimes the best way to teach someone is to not tell them what to do, but let them make decisions and explain as they make them what rules will apply. Just make sure you give them a chance to back out if there was a big negative side-effect that they didn't understand. As they start to master the basics you can introduce more advanced ideas.

Another good way for her to learn is from the other PCs. Encourage your players to make full use of their skills and various rules. She may not remember the bullrushing rules...but she may ask "Can I do that thing that Joe did a few sessions ago where he pushed the guy off the tower?"

Garimeth
2014-06-09, 10:05 AM
Have her boyfriend run some pre-made stuff for her just to get her used to the rules.

I think the biggest thing is to let her and her BF do the specialized stuff IN the battle as well though. Long term, just try to give her ways and options to choose what aspects of the game she is engaging. This let's everybody else do what they want (mass battles) without forcing her to. I have a game I am currently running where the players are part of a mercenary company, and I told them to let me know if they wanted leadership roles or not, and that if they don't then I would find them specialized roles in the unit. We haven't had our first BIG battle yet, but its coming up. Some of my players were not interested in commanding troops, they just wanted to do small unit stuff.

draken50
2014-06-09, 10:15 AM
Generally with new players I try to ease them into the rules.

Often I use the enemies my characters are facing to demonstrate the value or even just the capability to do things in combat that the players hadn't seen yet. This has the added effect of giving them an encounter that they remember with it. The bull rush rule goes with the hobgoblins trying to shove the characters into a ravine. The trip and disarm rules came into play with a group of acrobatic performers. Aid another was shown with a bunch of goblins and some bugbears and the like.

I'll usually focus on rules that the players can make use of themselves the soonest. Some players can read the book, or be told about things they can do and will remember. My newer players always learn fastest when they see it themselves, and it can be helpful as well if you can have a rule or strategy you've shown them be useful in the next session. "Wait... so we need to capture him, but his weapon is literally locked into his gauntlet? So we can't disarm him.. Okay, I rage and try to Sunder his sword with my new greataxe." When in the last game the barbarian's prize weapon was broken by an enemy.

It sounds like you've got a very rules heavy game, and that your players are solid strategists. This player may not be picking things up as fast, but it sounds as though she's making an effort. You might look at showing rather than telling. A quick rules explanation during a combat round can be much less disheartening than the player feeling like she has to do "homework" just to carry her weight.

Kol Korran
2014-06-13, 03:24 PM
Thanks for the replies folks, and sorry for not responding so long. I've been busy with studying for finals, as well as trying to deal with this situations. I conversed with another player (The one who usually helps her and that she appreciate) as well as with her. And it seems I may have gotten the situation partly wrong. What frustrated her was not so much the extra rules, but the fact that some of the other players, the more tactics and rules savvy players, were constantly interfering with her play even though it was done with good intentions. She often asks if she can do this or that and some players try to teach her by saying that some other option is better, or why her options won't work or such. And sometimes it's more than 1 player at a time. This seemed to have over whelmed her and got her frustrated (As ElenionAncalima suggested).

I suggested that she airs this with the group, and that she will have the players' full support. But she seems somewhat hesitant. I think she still feels like she's the "new kid" on the block, and doesn't want to rock the bot. I think that she needs to do this if for no other reason than that- to ascertain her place (perhaps to herself as well) as a full member of the group. We certainly see her so.

I have left the option of me talking to the group instead of her, if she still doesn't feel comfortable. In any case we'll do as some suggested- let her make her own decisions on her own, and explain rules when she asks them, but not give an opinion on tactics or such unless she specifically requests it. And we'll try to be less pushy with trying to teach her. I'll appoint the player she trust in to be her more close adviser, since I can't deal with that fully in the game. He's good at that.

I hope that will work. Thanks for ll the advice!

ElenionAncalima
2014-06-16, 12:37 PM
I suggested that she airs this with the group, and that she will have the players' full support. But she seems somewhat hesitant. I think she still feels like she's the "new kid" on the block, and doesn't want to rock the bot. I think that she needs to do this if for no other reason than that- to ascertain her place (perhaps to herself as well) as a full member of the group. We certainly see her so.

I have left the option of me talking to the group instead of her, if she still doesn't feel comfortable.


I am not surprised she feels uncomfortable airing out her frustrations. I suspect that overall her desire is that her learning the game is not constantly in the spotlight. She probably feels bad about slowing the game down. Talking to everyone about this issue just makes her inexperience the center of attention in an even bigger way.

More importantly, I am not sure that some big conversation on her part is necessary. If I were handling the situation as the GM I would say something like this at the beginning of the next game:

"Before we start...I'd like it if we could just let [Mentor Player] help out [New Player] with the rules from now on. I think it will help keep the game moving faster and things were getting a little confusing with everyone jumping in to help.

Then when someone is giving her unnecessary advice, politely ask them to let her figure it out on her own or remind them that the mentoring player will explain it to her. They will get the idea eventually without it having to be a big deal.

Kol Korran
2014-06-17, 01:22 AM
I've talked with her and she voiced the xact concerns you posted upon. Your idea of how to do this sounds quite good. We'll try that. Thanks!:smallsmile:

Vinegar Tom
2014-06-20, 12:55 PM
To be brutally honest, a tabletop group which only meets about 10 times a year can only work if everybody is casually familiar with all the rules and know each other pretty well. It sounds to me as if this girl is trying to join in with some kind of ritual game that's for good buddies only because her boyfriend does it about once a month and she's trying to be closer to him. Her only other motivation is that she was sitting in the background one time when you were all playing a completely different game which she probably assumed was the same one, you all seemed to be having fun, from an outsider's point of view it looked pretty easy, and joining in was better than tagging along and getting bored.

I think you need to ask her straight up if she really wants to play, or if she's just trying to be her man's best buddy as well as his lover (though you might put it more tactfully than that). Getting interested through casually spectating and then becoming frustrated by the elaborate rules that everybody except her perfectly understands and constantly tells her about in confusing ways strongly suggests that this woman's commitment to the game is based on trying to like what her boyfriend likes, and she's sticking with it for no other reason. I'm not in any way demeaning her intelligence when I say that she ought to be in a beginner's game, because she is one and the rest of you aren't. If she's going with the basic assumption that the game is all about roleplaying and whatever seems reasonable is worth trying, and being constantly overruled by everybody else because they fully understand a rules system big and complex enough to make the Bible look like the safety instructions on your fusebox, she's not suited for your game and shouldn't be involved in it.

If you run more than one game in whatever system, you should obviously start her in the easiest one until she really gets the hang of it, because there is no way whatsoever that she'll appreciate the roleplaying experience unless she's allowed to find her way with other people at her own level, or who are giving her a lot of leeway because she's new. If you don't have such a game, and your 5-weekly game is such that the other players won't give her the help she needs, she shouldn't be there. Your players obviously have no consideration for her, and that should speak for itself. If you have a beginner's game available but she refuses to join it because her boyfriend isn't playing, that too should speak for itself. There's zero point in shoehorning somebody into a game they don't really want to play, especially if the other players don't really want them to play either.

OK, that was blunt, and if it's completely wrong, I apologize in advance. But come on, if she's trying to enjoy this but she can't because she can't assimilate all the rules instantly because she's slightly less intelligent than God, and nobody except you is making any effort to help her with this, I submit that somebody may be playing the game very badly, and it might not be her.

Jornophelanthas
2014-06-20, 01:09 PM
@Vinegar Tom:

Read the rest of the thread, not just the first post. The OP has posted additional information, including the fact that his first interpretation of the situation was wrong. In fact, it seems like they found the actual cause of the concerns and are currently working to address it.

So if you want to posit assumptions (especially those that could offend people if you put them so bluntly), make sure you have all relevant information first.

ElenionAncalima
2014-06-20, 01:59 PM
@Vinegar Tom

Can I be brutally honest back at you? I am guessing you had a really bad experience with someone's girlfriend joining a game and you are bringing that bias here...because I think your advice is way of base regarding this situation. Confronting her in the manner you suggest is at best rude and potentially very offensive if her interest is genuine.

The OP hasn't said anything to suggest that she doesn't have a genuine interest in his game...just that she is a little overwhelmed by the rules. Also, he has implied during their FATE game she was a good roleplayer and participant. That makes it sound like she is more than just a tag along and has a least a little enthusiasm.

Believe it or not it is possible for a girl to enjoy tabletop gaming for reasons other than trying to get closer to a man. Even if she is just doing it to spend more time with her boyfriend, taking an interest in your significant other's hobbies and getting to know their friends better is not exactly a cardinal sin. It doesn't sound like she has forced her way into a game where she is unwelcome. The DM clearly wants to make this work and the players sound like they are on board (if not overzealous) with teaching her the game. Not to mention, it sounds like a huge part of the OPs original problem was just a misunderstanding caused by them really wanting to help and her not wanting to burden their game. Overall it sound like a good group just trying to figure out how to adapt to new blood.

My advice to this situation continues to be to handle it in the most lowkey manner possible, while still teaching her. Causing a lot of drama like suggested above could not only make the game worse...it could really strain the OP's relationship with his friend.

Kol Korran
2014-06-20, 04:34 PM
Thanks for the replies. I will try to clear things up a bit:
Yes, she was originally interested in seeing what her boyfriend was all up about.
She didn't quite assume the game will be easy. Even at her first session, (We started her on FATE, which is a light rules system) she was actively trying to learn the rules and so on. While she doesn't spend as much as we do on the game, she did put quite an effort to learn the mechanics. She is however far more of a roleplayer than a numbers person. We find that quite cool, as she brings quite a fresh wind to our game, and tries out things that are cool, instead of simply effective.
No, she didn't put up a great effort to learn the new rules by herself. She is quite busy as we are, but she did her best to learn when her boyfriend had private tutoring sessions with her, as well as I did. She even made summaries over several pages (Which I think helped her a bit, but confused her as well)
Due to our recent talk however I feel she's ok with not knowing how everythign works, and will earn. She just feels her creativity suffocated by the (Well intentioned) help of the group. I'd liek to point that you can easily care and try to help someone, and still frustrate them or even hinder their learnign and experience. Many of us ere at that, this may have been the case.
Yes, she feels somewhat uncertain and unsure of her position within the group, as the beginner. She is afraid to do mistakes, or to delay the group. Though we tried to be tolerant and welcoming, there may have been instances that some may have tried to push her a bit too much.
We aim to fix those things though. One player will be more of her mentor (And not her boyfriend, no need to bring that into the relationship), and as DM I'll enable her more time to make decisions, explain consequences of actions, and let her do mistakes. Not to mention I will try to stem the overzealous players of the group.

In summary- yes, the player is partly here to learn what her boyfriend is all excited about. This is how it started. But now she is in it for her own reasons, she's enthusiastic about the plot, about her character, and the new experience. She's just not a numbers person, and feels at a disadvantage for being the new player. Hopefully we'll get through this. I expect some bumps, but on the whole I believe this will work out nicely.

Thank you again, this has been quite helpful! :smallsmile:

kyoryu
2014-06-20, 04:40 PM
Sounds like the mechanics are holding her back.

I normally try to run Fate in such a way that the mechanics aren't really interacted with directly by the players.

One thing that would probably work quite well is one of the Apocalypse-World engine games. In those, it is literally against the rules to use the mechanics to describe what you're doing - you define what you do in terms of the situation, and then apply mechanics as necessary.

This is probably the best way to bring new players into the hobby (and has a very long tradition). "There's a monster running at you - it looks kind of like a human, but far uglier. Almost as ugly as Bob here. It's got a big axe raised up above its head, and it's about to try to split you in two. What do you do?"

No numbers, no mechanics, just "here's the situation - what do you do?"

Ghost49X
2014-06-22, 11:54 AM
I agree with what kyoryu says. If you want her to play a complicated system it might be easier to get her comfortable with parts of the system and slowly add more rules. If you want to add a complicated system to the rules and you don't think she's there yet, let her focus on the RP and have her describe her actions rather than regurgitate crunch. Then you or another player like her boyfriend can crunch it up and give her the right dice to roll apply the math and give the result to the GM. While I wouldn't say that you want to keep her on a crutch like this always. This can allow her to focus on what is within reach as opposed to getting lost in the new mechanics that will only be around for a session a year. She can still do what she knows herself and maybe work on another small part of the system meanwhile.

Kol Korran
2014-06-23, 12:24 AM
We sort of intend to run things this way, just having her respond to the description of the situation, but then explaining the rules involved. after the action. But her main issue is being overridden by the advice of the others, as I mentioned in my 2 last posts. The rules she will learn I think.

It IS important that she learn the rules, since unlike a narrativistic system, this is a gamist system, and it IS about overcoming challenges and trying to be effective to do so. And she wants to learn the rules. She is at her core more of a story teller roleplayer kind of player, but she also likes the tactical aspect of it, even though she currently lacks the know how to be good at it.

Thanks for the advice!

elliott20
2014-06-25, 01:55 PM
Use flashcards.

Take all of her mechanical options, and turn each one of them into flash cards.

Don't give her a deck that is each thing individually, give her a deck where each option is ALREADY optimized and crunched out, with the numbers all added up for her and everything. Obviously, what exactly you put into it is going to depend greatly on her current level of system mastery. But I think this is probably one of the quicker fixes.

so basically, you would give her two sets of cards, one set for personal actions, and one other set for mass combat options.

the personal actions might be something like, "stand still, full attack". the description will have her bonuses to hit, her damage dice with all bonuses all already calculated for her. If you REALLY want to make it work for her, ask her to help rename the cards so instead of "full attack", give it a flourishing name like "Rage of the Storm (full attack)". Gives her actions a bit more fun to it and makes it easier to remember than dry mechanical rules.