View Full Version : Banned Schools

2007-02-21, 01:04 AM
I'm building two different specialist wizards (one an evoker and the other an enchanter) for two different games for two different people and I need an opinion on what schools to ban. Any suggestions? I'm already banning necromancy for both (looked over spell list, nothing of note to waste spell slots on)

Jack Mann
2007-02-21, 01:12 AM
Generally, evocation's the best to ban, but that obviously doesn't work for the first one. Generally enchantment's the other, which doesn't work for your second. Illusion's the third choice, which will probably be a good idea for your evoker.

Necromancy's actually got some of the better spells in the game, such as ray of enfeeblement, finger of death, and enervation. Both conjuration and transmutation have way too many good spells to consider banning (indeed, they have the largest spell lists of any of the schools). Abjuration's got things like your prismatics, protection from X, dispel magic... Don't ban abjuration. Divination obviously you can't ban. Illusion and enchantment have useful things, and it hurts to ban 'em, but you can live without them. Evocation is by far the weakest of the schools, with the fewest number of truly useful spells (and most of them can be faked using shadow evocation; hence why most people who ban evocation also ban enchantment).

2007-02-21, 01:15 AM
Evocation isn't all that versatile, Conjuration can pull off a lot of the same stuff. I suppose Necromancy could go out for one of them, and Illusion if that's your thing. Honestly it's about personal taste. If you don't see yourself spending a full round action summoning a creature, then ban conjuration, if you don't see yourself creating illusions, ban illusion, if you like everything the way it is and don't like messing with the fundamental molecular clarity of things, then Transmutation is not for you. Just think of the character...

Jacob Orlove
2007-02-21, 01:44 AM
Ban Evocation for your Enchanter, and Enchantment for your Evoker. Both are reasonable schools to drop, and it'll give a nice distinctive feel to each one--they won't be stepping on each other's toes as much, which should make things more fun for you.

2007-02-21, 01:52 AM
Heres my take, take it or leave it

Abjuration: I would never, ever take Abjuration as a banned school. The dispel magic spells alone are reason not to lose access to this school as they are some of the most powerful and genericly useful spells in existance. In addition Abjuration contains many of the better defensive utilitys in the game, and since wizards need to focus on their defense so much it behooves them to have access to this school.

Conjuration: In 3.0 this school wasn't as important as it is now. Conjuration is an amazingly versitile school, containing defensive measures, temporary allies, offensive manuvers, utility spells, and the allmighty teleport spells(which might be worth keeping the school alone). You arn't crippling yourself by losing conjuration, but you are sacrificing much of your utility and control by doing so.

Divination: You can't prohibit this school, no point in talking about it.

Enchantment: Enchantment is powerful, really powerful. Very few schools can do as much with a single spell as this school can, especially when you get access to the allmighty dominate spells. While not the most efficient combat school, the enchantment school is great for all your out of combat needs. However, this school has a lot of overlap with illusion, so you can live without it, as long as you don't also give up illusion.

Evocation: Evocation is a one-trick pony, sure it has the best damage spells in the game, but damage isn't that useful to a wizard, and conjuration and necromancy both are pretty good at damage as is. There are a few winners here (wall of force, contignancy), but nothing I find making me want to keep this school for except for roleplay reasons.

Necromancy: Necromancy has a lot of power behind it offensively, both in terms of damage/kill spells and debuffs. Not taking necromancy will greatly reduce your offensive ability, but it's not too big a problum if you keep conjuration around. You can definatly give this school up, but I'd rather drop evocation and either enchantment or illusion.

Transmutation: Theres a heck of a lot of transmutation spells, and many of them I couldn't live without (fly, telekinesis, ect). Don't give it up.

2007-02-21, 02:00 AM
Evoker? I really liked it when evokers had to drop three schools. Then it became painfully obvious how sad and weak evokers were. I have no suggestions for evokers other than going Warmage instead.

I suggest Evoc and Illus as banned schools for your enchanter since many Illus schools are Similar to Encha. Since I suppose you will be putting feats on Spell Focus Encha your illus save or dies won't be as powerful so you can opt to drop that. Necro 's twin is Conju So if yer going Encha, it will hurt you to drop Necro.

2007-02-21, 03:48 AM
I'd make the characters ban different schools if I were you - it'll mean you'll get to use all the spells in total, which'll make the games more fun.

With that in mind, I'd ban Evocation and Necromancy for the enchanter, and Enchantment and Illusion for the evoker. This'll give you two very different flavours of wizard - one with great utility/flexibility but no damage, and one with great damage but not much subtle stuff.

- Saph

2007-02-21, 04:02 AM
The only schools that I'd ever take as prohibited schools are Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion and Necromancy.

All Enchantment spells are mindaffecting, that's a severe limitation.
Evocation has few good spells, but it gets better with splatbooks (maximized Moonbow, anyone ?)
Illusion has also many mindaffecting spells but it is also very versatile and has some useful buffs.
Yes, Necromancy has some strong no-save-just-suck / save-or-suck / save-or-die spells, but you won't be crippled without them.

For your Evoker I'd say ban Enchantment and Necromancy.

For your Enchanter I'd say ban Evocation and Necromancy.

2007-02-22, 04:52 AM
Slightly different question. I'm assuming that a specialist diviner should probably drop Evocation (anyone that obsessed is not likely to want to blow things up, although the loss of magic missile is always a sting), but is it worth said specialist taking Spell Focus: Divination? It appears to be a dump feat except in literally one or two cases.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-22, 04:54 AM
SF: Divination probably isn't worth it--there are, however, several spells it comes in handy with. Scrying and Detect Thoughts are the only core ones, I think, but Unluck, from the SpC, is ridiculously good. There's a couple more spells with saves, I think. Overall, though, yeah; pretty poor feat.

2007-02-22, 05:00 AM
Related question. Said diviner must take SF Divination to go Master Specialist. I'm not sure it's worth it - would you take it?

I dislike familiars for wizards. I give them the UA variants for specialists or three spells a level from research (six at 1st) for generalists. Do you think the +1 boost to DCs from the diviner option counts as SF Divination for PrCs or does the diviner still need to take it?

Jack Mann
2007-02-22, 05:12 AM
The loss of magic missile is never a sting. It nigh-guaranteed damage, but it's not very good damage.

As for Master Specialist Diviner, it's not as good as some of the other master specialist paths. It can be useful, but not all that often. However, it brings up a point. Oftentimes, a prestige class his prerequisite feats that aren't very good. Abjurant Champion, for example, requires Combat Casting, an extremely poor feat choice. This is often on purpose. The intent is to give the class a cost to enter. In this case, you're looking at the benefits of the class vs. the cost of that feat. In the case of Abjurant Champion, it's probably well worth it. In the case of master diviner, I'd say no. There are better prestige classes to take, unless you want to dip a level to pick up free skill focus and qualify for archmage.

And no, the +1 boost to DCs is not Spell Focus, and does not say it replaces spell focus for prerequisites. Unless you can convince your DM to let you take it, then you still need Spell Focus.

2007-02-22, 05:33 AM
For me, personally, I may just be brain washed, if I'm going to speacialize I end up choosing Illusion and Enchantment. Why? My general mind set is if I'm going to use those two I may as well be a bard. I play a fair share MMO's and it has burned into my system that Wizards are damage dealers. So I'm usually an Evoker with strong secondary focus in Necromancy and Conjuration.

My friend also plays a bard and doesn't really enjoy me moving in on his usefulness.

2007-02-22, 05:38 AM
Well, don't play a Beguiler. It's more useful than an Enchanter on the basis that you have the social skills to back up the spells and he is even a substitute Rogue!

As for the Diviner, I didn't think the UA bonus counted, but it's worth a try :) After all, if you already have a +1, getting a +2 is as good as any and going Master Specialist does at least get you one of the Archmage feats.

Edit: I happen to like magic missile, if only for nostalgic reasons. All my Evocation-capable wizards have it!

2007-02-22, 05:45 AM
For me, personally, I may just be brain washed, if I'm going to speacialize I end up choosing Illusion and Enchantment. Why? My general mind set is if I'm going to use those two I may as well be a bard. I play a fair share MMO's and it has burned into my system that Wizards are damage dealers. So I'm usually an Evoker with strong secondary focus in Necromancy and Conjuration.

My friend also plays a bard and doesn't really enjoy me moving in on his usefulness.
While necromancy and conjuration are both pretty powerful, evocation is very weak. The strength of a (combat) wizard doesn't lie in damage, but in removal of threats. Evocation has almost no spells which aren't plain damage dealers. Illusion and enchantment are good ban schools though.

2007-02-22, 05:50 AM
I personally banned Conjuration and I'm not suffering from it as some people on that forum promised me... maybe because I don't use battlefield control spells and that campaign won't probably last long enough for me to cast Teleport. That, and it's funny to hear "OMGWTFBBQ! You banned Conjuration?".

Jack Mann
2007-02-22, 06:16 AM
Wizards are not good at dealing damage. Honest. A handful of d6s does not a powerhouse make. And most of the best damage dealing spells are not in evocation. Disintegrate, for example, or the various orb spells.

Yes, these don't do damage to a large number of targets, but if you're facing that many, you're much better off placing a wall or a solid fog to slow them down than you are chinking away at their hit points. Leave damage to the other classes. Wizards just aren't any good at it. They make up for that by being good at everything else.

2007-02-22, 06:31 AM
The Orb spells should be Evocation IMO, but that's another debate.

2007-02-22, 06:46 AM
Adding Orb of X ro Conjuration was unfair IMO. Damage maybe isn't the best what spellcaster can do, but it was an Evocation thing. Now with Orb spells in Conjuration-already strong if stupid school- Evocation is far less efficent.