Conquering the Nine Hells

[Effero]

So I was trying to think of the best way to take over the Nine Hells, and I keep coming up short. Any ideas? Level drain, magic (damage, mind affecting, ect), brute force? Currently looking for ideas for a gestalt build.

[Vedhin]

First question: Why isn't Asmodeus just going to curmbstomp you?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

First question: Why isn't Asmodeus just going to curmbstomp you?

Perhaps high level optimization of T1 classes? :smallbiggrin:

[Effero]

First question: Why isn't Asmodeus just going to curmbstomp you?

That's the question isn't it. What is the best way to deal with him? Every time I look at BoVD and see the stats (that aura is a killer) I shutter. Is there a way to dethrone the guy?

[atemu1234]

Step One: Get portable hole.
Step Two: Gate in Asmodeus near to a Sphere of Annihilation.
Step Three: ???
Step Four: Profit.

[Red Fel]

First question: Why isn't Asmodeus just going to curmbstomp you?

A world of this. Asmodeus is one of the oldest, most powerful non-deities in the cosmology. Despite not actually being a deity, he is able to deal with them on a level playing field; he is, for all intends and purposes, a god of LE.

More than that, the Nine Hells are his. They are an extension of his will, his body beyond his body. You're not just gearing up to fight the ultimate Archdevil; you're gearing up to fight an entire plane.

More than that, he is the ultimate schemer. He plots, plans and manipulates. He has plans within plans, constantly developing, each more elaborate than the next. He prepares for everything. You think he hasn't prepared for you?

More than that, he already has tons of enemies. Every single Devil and Archdevil wants his throne, and he has continuously thwarted their attempts. He makes an artform of paranoia. Any one of these enemies could ally with you, or against you, or betray you for a scintilla of his favor.

More than that, Asmodeus is only a single obstacle. If you want total domination of the Nine Hells, you have to beat him, along with every Archdevil, every Greater Devil who claims right to their leaders' authority, every Lesser Devil who rises up to take their place - you have to basically commit a total genocide of Lawful Evil Outsiders.

And when you do? That's the end of the Blood War, and Demons will either descend upon your newly-hollowed empire, or crash into the gates of Celestia with all of their Abyssal forces. Either you become Lord of Hell for a few hours before it is overrun with Demons, or for a few months while they conquer the Heavens and then come for you. And on the off chance you can destroy both the Devils and the Demons? You are now ruler of one of the most Evil places in the cosmology. The place itself is a source of anguish and misery. You won't enjoy it. It will warp you, alter you, make you monstrous. And even if it doesn't, the forces of cosmic Good - assuming they weren't routed by Demons - will assume it does. They will assume that the new Lord of Hell is a stronger, more violent version of the old one - and they'll want to test their mettle, on the off chance that they could destroy cosmic Evil once and for all.

Short version? You're facing one of the most powerful and prepared LE beings alive, and every last one of his minions, and his home plane, and each of his enemies in turn.

You'd better have an army.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Perhaps high level optimization of T1 classes? :smallbiggrin:

You mean the same T1 spell-casting that Asmodeus himself has access to but infinitely more experience in using? :smalltongue: This is, of course, in addition to his literal reset button aka his scepter.


Step One: Get portable hole.
Step Two: Gate in Asmodeus near to a Sphere of Annihilation.
Step Three: ???
Step Four: Profit.

Asmodeus, unless it's an aspect, would have a choice in answering the Gate. And why would he want to meet some worthless mortal?

You don't conquer the Nine Hells, not by yourself. It's the equivalent of attacking a numerous gods inside their own domains and about as suicidal.

Strike that, you will be attacking numerous gods inside of their own domains and it is suicide.

[Vedhin]

That's the question isn't it. What is the best way to deal with him? Every time I look at BoVD and see the stats (that aura is a killer) I shutter. Is there a way to dethrone the guy?

First, I'd like to make the point that, per the lore, that's not Asmodeus. It's effectively an Aspect.


A world of this. Asmodeus is one of the oldest, most powerful non-deities in the cosmology. Despite not actually being a deity, he is able to deal with them on a level playing field; he is, for all intends and purposes, a god of LE.

More than that, the Nine Hells are his. They are an extension of his will, his body beyond his body. You're not just gearing up to fight the ultimate Archdevil; you're gearing up to fight an entire plane.

More than that, he is the ultimate schemer. He plots, plans and manipulates. He has plans within plans, constantly developing, each more elaborate than the next. He prepares for everything. You think he hasn't prepared for you?

More than that, he already has tons of enemies. Every single Devil and Archdevil wants his throne, and he has continuously thwarted their attempts. He makes an artform of paranoia. Any one of these enemies could ally with you, or against you, or betray you for a scintilla of his favor.

More than that, Asmodeus is only a single obstacle. If you want total domination of the Nine Hells, you have to beat him, along with every Archdevil, every Greater Devil who claims right to their leaders' authority, every Lesser Devil who rises up to take their place - you have to basically commit a total genocide of Lawful Evil Outsiders.

Second, that. Note that somehow becoming the lawful ruler of the Nine Hells would bypass the genocide, but Asmodeus will have plugged any loopholes that could be used against him. Against you, it's more like holes connected by loops.




And when you do? That's the end of the Blood War, and Demons will either descend upon your newly-hollowed empire, or crash into the gates of Celestia with all of their Abyssal forces. Either you become Lord of Hell for a few hours before it is overrun with Demons, or for a few months while they conquer the Heavens and then come for you. And on the off chance you can destroy both the Devils and the Demons? You are now ruler of one of the most Evil places in the cosmology. The place itself is a source of anguish and misery. You won't enjoy it. It will warp you, alter you, make you monstrous. And even if it doesn't, the forces of cosmic Good - assuming they weren't routed by Demons - will assume it does. They will assume that the new Lord of Hell is a stronger, more violent version of the old one - and they'll want to test their mettle, on the off chance that they could destroy cosmic Evil once and for all.

You forgot the Yugoloths, who were secretly manipulating everyone the whole time!



Short version? You're facing one of the most powerful and prepared LE beings alive, and every last one of his minions, and his home plane, and each of his enemies in turn.

You'd better have an army.

The army would be slaughtered.

[ArqArturo]

A world of this. Asmodeus is one of the oldest, most powerful non-deities in the cosmology. Despite not actually being a deity, he is able to deal with them on a level playing field; he is, for all intends and purposes, a god of LE.

More than that, the Nine Hells are his. They are an extension of his will, his body beyond his body. You're not just gearing up to fight the ultimate Archdevil; you're gearing up to fight an entire plane.

More than that, he is the ultimate schemer. He plots, plans and manipulates. He has plans within plans, constantly developing, each more elaborate than the next. He prepares for everything. You think he hasn't prepared for you?

More than that, he already has tons of enemies. Every single Devil and Archdevil wants his throne, and he has continuously thwarted their attempts. He makes an artform of paranoia. Any one of these enemies could ally with you, or against you, or betray you for a scintilla of his favor.

More than that, Asmodeus is only a single obstacle. If you want total domination of the Nine Hells, you have to beat him, along with every Archdevil, every Greater Devil who claims right to their leaders' authority, every Lesser Devil who rises up to take their place - you have to basically commit a total genocide of Lawful Evil Outsiders.

And when you do? That's the end of the Blood War, and Demons will either descend upon your newly-hollowed empire, or crash into the gates of Celestia with all of their Abyssal forces. Either you become Lord of Hell for a few hours before it is overrun with Demons, or for a few months while they conquer the Heavens and then come for you. And on the off chance you can destroy both the Devils and the Demons? You are now ruler of one of the most Evil places in the cosmology. The place itself is a source of anguish and misery. You won't enjoy it. It will warp you, alter you, make you monstrous. And even if it doesn't, the forces of cosmic Good - assuming they weren't routed by Demons - will assume it does. They will assume that the new Lord of Hell is a stronger, more violent version of the old one - and they'll want to test their mettle, on the off chance that they could destroy cosmic Evil once and for all.

Short version? You're facing one of the most powerful and prepared LE beings alive, and every last one of his minions, and his home plane, and each of his enemies in turn.

You'd better have an army.

This.

I did a one-week campaign of high-leveled characters (twelve people) that were gearing up towards Asmodeus himself. The players ended up recruiting every single LG-NG-CG major NPC characters from different realms, even suggesting the possibility of jumping into Midnight and get help from the Witch Queen (They had a ship second-best to The Spelljammer).

Long story short, the wizard fought against Asmoedus in a game of chess (had to bring a friend who used to be in the college chess team as a 2nd DM), while the rest of the players/army of good fought against his humanoid look, and then his serpent form. Only the wizard survived and had to face his daughter, whom he told her he was willing to letting her live if she bound her service to him, and bounded the devil's own soul to the bargain, to avoid any betrayals.

Had to make him roll a few Will saves (we were using the critical successes and fumbles rule), and he rolled poorly, plus a 1. The wizard did in fact had her as her servant, but little by little she began influencing him, turning him from jailer of devils into a devil himself... And into Asmodeus reborn, now with Wizard Abjuration magic, as well as Asmodeus' own tricks.

The players hated me for this.

[atemu1234]

Maybe you could try to get a deal with lawful good outsiders. If you get equally powerful good beings on your side, you'd at least stand a chance. But don't just rush in half-cocked and expect the big A to fight you on a level playing field. That isn't just suicidal, it's stupid. I'd recommend making deals with the other up-and-comers of the nine hells as well. If you get the other lords of the nine to team up on their ruler along with however many good beings you can wrangle, you stand half a chance. Other than that, there's only one piece I can give you about trying to overthrow Asmodeus. Don't.

[Grollub]

since someone mentioned the blood war...

you are assuming that DURING your "conquering" of the nine hells.. the demonic army/ angelic army/ both/ all armies don't descent on the new power vacuum you are creating, to take control before you do.


Congrats you are now in the middle of a multi-pronged assault from at least 3-4 armies all vying for control/ power.


In short, the only way to take control is:

1 ) if Asmodeus wants you to , as part of some nefarious scheme
2) your gm is kind/stupid/ etc

[Effero]

since someone mentioned the blood war...

you are assuming that DURING your "conquering" of the nine hells.. the demonic army/ angelic army/ both/ all armies don't descent on the new power vacuum you are creating, to take control before you do.


Congrats you are now in the middle of a multi-pronged assault from at least 3-4 armies all vying for control/ power.

I like this, as long as I am still standing after.

[Gildedragon]

A start could be had by taking over the material planes and mindraping/helmet of opposite alignment all beings on them. Without evil you begin to cut souls and worship to the lower planes.

[kardar233]

Search for the Iron Siege to get a sense of what you're going to end up dealing with. You will die. And that's just Dispater's realm.

[Vedhin]

I like this, as long as I am still standing after.

You won't be. Let's assume for a moment you somehow beat Asmodeus, and took over with the other denizens of the Nine Hells accepting you.

Now, a look at what other places would do:

Acheron would see that you're vulnerable, and the denizens might attack now while you still are consolidating power.

Mechanus would be displeased with the change in the status quo, and an implacable juggernaut of modrons and inevitables might turn up to pulverize you.

Arcadia would be angry and see a chance to strike, much like Mechanus and Archeron

Celestia would recognize this as a prime opportunity to take the fight to the Nine Hells, given the instability.

Bytopia would likely chip in with the war effort.

Elysium would seize the chance to strike a great blow against Evil.

The Beastlands wouldn't be likely to do much. Some of the more druidy types might like the chance to fight against the general destructiveness of the Hells

Arborea would have the chance to possible eliminate it's diametric opposite in the alignment spectrum. Don't expect them to neglect it.

Ysgard likes fighting anyway, and this is a great excuse.

Limbo is unpredictable, but some would enjoy taking Law down a peg.

Pandemonium is too crazy to care much.

The Abyss would press the Blood War like there's no tomorrow.

Carceri keeps to itself.

Hades doesn't care.

Gehenna, or rather the Yugoloths, would manipulate everyone into doing what they want (business as usual).


And then there's the question of the Pact Primeval, and what this big a change might do to its validity. If your takeover annuls t, the cosmological order starts going wrong, souls end up all over the place, and pretty much everybody will hate your guts with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns.



No matter what happens, you will lose one way or another.

[Fable Wright]

Step 1: Don't try to do it in the Great Wheel cosmology. It's possible to do it in Eberron, where the Devils are extremely finite, Baator is a demiplane that has nearly no significance in the great scheme of things (so no blood war/angelic invasion if you succeed), and Asmodeus, though he's an extremely clever manipulative bastard who has had millennia to prepare for contingencies, doesn't have an iron-clad grip on his position. You're still taking on an entire demiplane of trapped immortals who embody the essence of corruption and are ruled by devils strong enough to enforce a heirarchy on an entire level of hell in addition to taking on the big A, but it's possible to come out on top in Eberron.

In the Great Wheel? Not a bloody chance.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You mean the same T1 spell-casting that Asmodeus himself has access to but infinitely more experience in using? :smalltongue: This is, of course, in addition to his literal reset button aka his scepter.



Asmodeus, unless it's an aspect, would have a choice in answering the Gate. And why would he want to meet some worthless mortal?

You don't conquer the Nine Hells, not by yourself. It's the equivalent of attacking a numerous gods inside their own domains and about as suicidal.

Strike that, you will be attacking numerous gods inside of their own domains and it is suicide.


I was thinking of Tippy level optimization. I actually don't think it would be suicide at that level :smallbiggrin:

Of course that may not be playing fair...

[Fable Wright]

I was thinking of Tippy level optimization. I actually don't think it would be suicide at that level :smallbiggrin:

Of course that may not be playing fair...

The thing to remember is that while you may be using Tippy-level optimization is that, even with a party of full-casters, stopping one 20th level wizard is a campaign in and of itself.

In the Great Wheel, Asmodeus owns the souls of many Epic-leveled Tippy-optimized wizards, in addition to using their resources more intelligently than you ever could. It's part of the job description. And he's had millennia to set up his defenses with access to all of those resources.

You think you're not playing fair? Asmodeus was in that game before the first of your Wizard's race took its first step onto the planet. You really think you can beat him by 'not playing fair'?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

The thing to remember is that while you may be using Tippy-level optimization is that, even with a party of full-casters, stopping one 20th level wizard is a campaign in and of itself.

In the Great Wheel, Asmodeus owns the souls of many Epic-leveled Tippy-optimized wizards, in addition to using their resources more intelligently than you ever could. It's part of the job description. And he's had millennia to set up his defenses with access to all of those resources.

You think you're not playing fair? Asmodeus was in that game before the first of your Wizard's race took its first step onto the planet. You really think you can beat him by 'not playing fair'?

Actually you don't have to defeat Asmodeous, you have to defeat the DM on this one.

If no fiat is involved, I would put my money on the high (tippy) optimized party versus stock and file Asmodeus. If for no other reason than parties tend to think of one little thing that the DM didn't plan for. One little thing that grabs victory for the PCs.

If the DM wants to optimize asmodeus beyond what WotC planed for then things will get ugly but a properly planed party should still have a chance of winning.

Heck, someone used a single monk build tobkill archfiends, if that is possible then anything is possible.

[Vedhin]

If no fiat is involved

Asmodeus is basically DM fiat incarnate. If he isn't, he is not being played properly.

[Effero]

In all of the 'How do you become a god' threads one of the first things on the list is kill a god. Is everyone here saying that that is not possible or just Asmodeus and the Nine Hells are impossible? I would be okay with conquering the Abyss but from what I read the same issues come up.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

In all of the 'How do you become a god' threads one of the first things on the list is kill a god. Is everyone here saying that that is not possible or just Asmodeus and the Nine Hells are impossible? I would be okay with conquering the Abyss but from what I read the same issues come up.

The fluff pretty much makes Asmodeus pretty damn immune to anything a PC would want to do to him.

[Raven777]

Well, the thing with the Abyss is that it's kind of infinite.

[Vedhin]

In all of the 'How do you become a god' threads one of the first things on the list is kill a god. Is everyone here saying that that is not possible or just Asmodeus and the Nine Hells are impossible? I would be okay with conquering the Abyss but from what I read the same issues come up.

Beating Asmodeus is effectively impossible, yes. Pun-Pun could pull it off, but he doesn't really count. Beyond that, you'd be long at a concerted effort by a coalition of gods, and the result conflict would have bad ramifications for the rest of the planes.

The Abyss is arguably harder. The Nine Hells have a defined power structure, but the Abyss doesn't. In any given area, the "ruler" is basically whoever is scariest to the inhabitants. Essentially, you can't take over an anarchy.

[Coidzor]

There are two things you must fear. Asmodeus and what Asmodeus fears.

For if, in your war in Hell, you allow the return of the Ancient Baatorians, you will find yourself in a very unenviable position.

Also, there will be negative repercussions if, in conquering Hell, you end up having the Abyss win the Blood War.

[Emperor Tippy]

Conquering the Nine Hells only using the published, baseline, stats for the various devils and Lords isn't that hard. You just build your infinite army of Ice Assassins and go to town.

Conquering the Nine Hells when the devils and lords actually have sane and reasonable stat blocks is not really possible, especially when you get into fluff.

The Big A got the Pact backed by all of the non demonic deities, and you can be sure that said Pact includes provisions for his own personal survival. This is a Pact that literally rewrote the rules for the entire cosmology and it is enforced and backed by all of that power. You aren't just fighting Big A but putting yourself against all the deities.

[Vedhin]

There are two things you must fear. Asmodeus and what Asmodeus fears.

For if, in your war in Hell, you allow the return of the Ancient Baatorians, you will find yourself in a very unenviable position.

For the record, there isn't much "allow" going on where Ancient Baatorians are concerned. Asmodeus didn't even beat them-- they had ascended to some sort of incorporeal mental being state of pure Evil by then, and didn't much care. They likely thought it was cute how the baatezu acted like they were in charge.
There's also the theory that Baalphegor is an Ancient Baatorian, which make far too much sense if you look into things.

Oh, and the Ancient Baatorians are actually still in charge, though they don't choose to do anything. That's why Nupperibos (their young) are naturally formed from souls sent to the Nine Hells, and baatezu are formed through artificial means. It's also why any Nupperibo with any sort of advanced capabilities is slaughtered or used to make baatezu.


Conquering the Nine Hells only using the published, baseline, stats for the various devils and Lords isn't that hard. You just build your infinite army of Ice Assassins and go to town.

Conquering the Nine Hells when the devils and lords actually have sane and reasonable stat blocks is not really possible, especially when you get into fluff.

The Big A got the Pact backed by all of the non demonic deities, and you can be sure that said Pact includes provisions for his own personal survival. This is a Pact that literally rewrote the rules for the entire cosmology and it is enforced and backed by all of that power. You aren't just fighting Big A but putting yourself against all the deities.

Note that even Tippy is telling you that, provided the DM uses intelligent stats for the relevant, this is a lost cause. The bit about the Pact Primeval is right-- messing with the status quo like this would make the Powers That Be very angry. And possibly willing to set aside their differences in order to prevent the cosmological disaster you might cause.

[Coidzor]

Which is why you start an Ocean's X style plot to simultaneously steal all copies of the Pact Primeval at the same time and pull a Vecna.


For the record, there isn't much "allow" going on where Ancient Baatorians are concerned. Asmodeus didn't even beat them-- they had ascended to some sort of incorporeal mental being state of pure Evil by then, and didn't much care. They likely thought it was cute how the baatezu acted like they were in charge.
There's also the theory that Baalphegor is an Ancient Baatorian, which make far too much sense if you look into things.

Oh, and the Ancient Baatorians are actually still in charge, though they don't choose to do anything. That's why Nupperibos (their young) are naturally formed from souls sent to the Nine Hells, and baatezu are formed through artificial means. It's also why any Nupperibo with any sort of advanced capabilities is slaughtered or used to make baatezu.

Exactly. You don't want to find out what happens if those Nupperibo are allowed to evolve into their next state.

[Vedhin]

Which is why you start an Ocean's X style plot to simultaneously steal all copies of the Pact Primeval at the same time and pull a Vecna.

Somewhere, I read an excellent story from a campaign where someone tried to steal Asmodeus's copy. The adventurers went through various harrowing tasks, and eventually got to the room where the copy was purportedly stored. The found a note, informing them that Asmodeus was currently busy, but there was wine over in the corner, and they should feel free to start without him.


Really though, you aren't going to outwit the baatezu, the modrons, and the archons. The Pact Primeval copies might well be the best protected items in the multiverse.

[Effero]

Okay, too much ambition then. What about taking a single layer? Or would the Abyss be a better place to play warlord?

[Vedhin]

Okay, too much ambition then. What about taking a single layer? Or would the Abyss be a better place to play warlord?

A single layer of the Abyss is a much better idea. Those are small enough that you won't light up a giant neon "potential threat here" sign on the radar of everyone important.

[Red Fel]

Okay, too much ambition then. What about taking a single layer? Or would the Abyss be a better place to play warlord?

The thing to remember is that, when tinkering with the cosmology, it boils down to DM fiat. You're taking over a plane, or a portion thereof, with the knowledge that if the DM wants you to succeed, you have a chance to succeed, but if he doesn't want you to win, there is simply no way to do so. This is generally true, but particularly so when dealing with powers on a cosmic level. In an ordinary encounter, if the DM fudges things so that the bad guy wins, you can call him out on it; when dealing with the cosmology, if the DM fudges things, he's doing it right.

Success in the Nine Hells ultimately means dealing with Asmodeus. Each Archdevil reigns only because Asmodeus wills it to be so; any that he want eliminated are eliminated, or worse. Thus, securing even a single layer would require, directly or indirectly, persuading Asmodeus that he'd be better off with you in charge. It also means that you are subjecting yourself to his rule - despite their best efforts and intents, each and every Devil works for Asmodeus, knowingly or unknowingly advancing his aims. You would ultimately be no different.

The Abyss is both easier and harder. On the one hand, it's less organized, so you wouldn't be facing the combined forces of Hell, nor would you be forced to contend with any particular hierarchy. On the other, the Abyss is alive, even moreso than the Hells. It simply won't accept you if you're not a proper Demon, and even if you are, it resists control. That's its nature. Even the current rulers of the various layers do so by sheer force; the Abyss won't simply yield, even to an Archdemon.

Afro would be a better person to ask - and has likely addressed this point in his threads - but it really boils down to this. Conquering any part of the Hells does not rely just on your ability to conquer, but your ability to operate within the rules - you have to do what Asmodeus wants, as he wants it, to get anything. Conquering any part of the Abyss requires not just a singular military victory, but an ongoing struggle against a world that rejects your authority actively and constantly.

Have you considered conquering Celestia? It's just a mountain. I hear it's quite scenic in springtime.

[facelessminion]

Okay, too much ambition then. What about taking a single layer? Or would the Abyss be a better place to play warlord?

The Abyss would be a GREAT place to play warlord. And if you were willing to settle for just one or two layers, you would even win.

[Phelix-Mu]

Skysaber had a thread about using cost-reduced giant constructs to fill the Abyss with self-replicating kaijuu bunny monsters. Great thread. I think it may have involved a tuppence of 3rd party material, though. Or maybe some PF.

A single layer of either the Abyss or the Nine Hells is probably more likely to be plausible (or to at least be conceivable in the planning). Anyone high-tier and with good access to some kind of free crafting, wish traps, or recursive looping stuff can probably get away with it, because even a layer spawning NI demons can eventually be churned into just so much mulch with the application of enough magic and force. The key is applying power in the right manner so as to end up with something left over that is sustainable.

Accordingly, the normal problem with doing any of this (in addition to the DM basically needing to be onboard with allowing you to succeed) is that, should you succeed in conquest, you are now eternally vulnerable to pretty much the rest of everything. The new guy in town always has a bullseye painted on his back, and whether it's Glasya, Demogorgon, or someone more obscure, these are the kind of "welcoming parties" that few survive. And the list of new rivals and opportunistic bastards goes on and on and on. Really, most mortals aren't particularly cut out for an eternity of endless struggle and warfare.

So, in this respect, Hell might be a better choice. In Hell, if you can secure the appropriate alliances and acceptance by the other Archdukes, then you have a chance to consolidate a sustainable position (but this is extremely unlikely to happen). In the Abyss, no matter how superior your power, no matter how scary you are, there is a horde of raving demons that will come your way every week or so, for no other reason than they are looking for something flammable to burn to the ground, and they haven't tried your place yet. Even thoroughly suicidal and hopeless attacks go on all of the time in the Abyss; in fact, the demons really like that kind of warfare, because if there was a point to what they were doing, that kind of reduces the chaotic factor.

In short, if I were the OP, I'd take a solid look at any of the other planes, with the possible exception of Hades and Gehenna. There are a couple where you could set up a nice, remote empire of something or other, and be far enough away from most of everything to not ruffle any feathers; the Deep Ethereal (if the DM is into that variant), the Astral, and the void surrounding the gears of Mechanus are all infinite in size and stretch on and on and on, with little stopping you from setting up some kind of shop except for anyone that knows what you are up to (hint: don't let anyone know). Or befriend a god and set up in their area. Really, if you really, really want to rule something, just make a demiplane. Bam, done.

[Werephilosopher]

A start could be had by taking over the material planes and mindraping/helmet of opposite alignment all beings on them. Without evil you begin to cut souls and worship to the lower planes.

Mindrape and fancy hats aren't enough to undo a lifetime of evil. Their souls would still be bound for the Lower Planes.

[Gildedragon]

Mindrape and fancy hats aren't enough to undo a lifetime of evil. Their souls would still be bound for the Lower Planes.

You catch the yung'uns and set them on the path of goodness and contrition. the doomed ones you stick in vats of quintessence

or insert a sliver of thianum into them that cannot be removed.

Point is: starve the lower-planes of souls and worship (ideally while channeling it all to the upper ones)

[Alleran]

The Abyss is both easier and harder. On the one hand, it's less organized, so you wouldn't be facing the combined forces of Hell, nor would you be forced to contend with any particular hierarchy. On the other, the Abyss is alive, even moreso than the Hells. It simply won't accept you if you're not a proper Demon, and even if you are, it resists control. That's its nature. Even the current rulers of the various layers do so by sheer force; the Abyss won't simply yield, even to an Archdemon.
It is possible to ascend to rulership of an Abyssal layer - however, it's basically the capstone of two adventure paths in Dungeon (Shackled City can get you rulership of Occipitus, and Savage Tide can leave you in Demogorgon's spot as the Prince of Demons). So if your DM is doing it right, don't expect it to be easy.

[Angelalex242]

You'd have a better shot at taking down Sauron and taking over Mordor really.

Conquering one plane of Hell, however...that just involves proving to Asmodeus you'd be better then the current guy in charge of that layer, and that you're willing to play by his rules, and bam, out with the old, in with you. The lords of the other 8 have been known to get deposed on occasion.

Conquering one layer of the Abyss is a constant battle but doable. Note, however, that you cannot conquer it and make it a realm of good. It's still a realm of Chaotic Evil, it's just now YOUR realm of Chaotic Evil.

Trying to take over the good aligned planes is even worse. Unlike the lower planes, the upper planes will close ranks if any of them are threatened, and send Solars and Ice Assassins of Solars enough to encourage you to drop the idea. With extreme prejudice. Good is good. They work together. You can count on Ysgard to back up Arcadia, and Arcadia to back up Ysgard, even though they're both not perfectly good and on the other side of the aisle. And the alliances are even stronger between the fully good planes.

[RedMage125]

Well, as has been mentioned, the Asmodeus that anyone sees may or may not be the true form of him. That tat block from the BoVD? That may very well just be an "avatar" of sorts that he projects, his true form being miles long and residing at the bottom of The Serpent's Coil in Nessus.

I think taking over a layer of Baator would be preferable to the Abyss, if one's intent it to rule. Demons are a savage, tricky, and untrustworthy lot. Devils, at the very least, respect power. If you were truly capable (in terms of power) of ousting a Lord of Hell, and enforcing your own rule with the same level of ruthlessness, the other devils of that layer would likely fall in line.

Assuming, of course, that your first act as one of the Nine was to make a suitable gift to Asmodeus to demonstrate that you are willing to bow to him. He could still oust you. Make Asmodeus want you in that throne instead of it's previous occupant, and you're pretty much set.

Your best bet would probably be to take out Bel, Lord of the First. But then you'd be the person in charge of the layer of Baator that's a constant battleground of the Blood War.

Your next best bet for a solid chance would be Belial/Fierna, and hope to catch them when they are occupied with their own perversions.

Red Fel had it right with what he said about trying to confront the big A. Someone else made the comment on his closer, the "you'd better have an army". That commenter dismissed that as "your army would be crushed".

I would like to point out that Red Fel very likely meant "You'd better have an army...of Tippy-level optimized PC-classed individuals of no less than level 18, with no one of a class below Tier 3".

And even then it would be dicey. But at least with that, you MIGHT stand a CHANCE of defeating Asmodeus in combat (until his true form shows itself and devours you anyway).

[weckar]

Even after infinity, Asmodeus' job can never really be boring, eh?

[Elana]

Conquering one layer of the Abyss is a constant battle but doable. Note, however, that you cannot conquer it and make it a realm of good.

Sure you can.
Of course if layers change alignment they tend to move.

But the actual problem is infinity.
Even if your army advances your realm with lightspeed your realm would never become more than a tiny fraction during the life time of even a god.
(Note that according to the planescape books only the first layer of baator is infinite..so taking layer 2 to 9 is doable, and just very very hard :) Really layer 9 is probably not much bigger than a galaxy :P)

[icefractal]

A single layer of either the Abyss or the Nine Hells is probably more likely to be plausible (or to at least be conceivable in the planning). Anyone high-tier and with good access to some kind of free crafting, wish traps, or recursive looping stuff can probably get away with it, because even a layer spawning NI demons can eventually be churned into just so much mulch with the application of enough magic and force. The key is applying power in the right manner so as to end up with something left over that is sustainable.The problem is that once you put infinite wish loops on the table ... the demons/devils have access to that too! And while for the things that are immediately NI you might be on even ground (insofar as arbitrating battle between NI-sized forces is kind of arbitrary), they will have a definite advantage in that they had more time to prepare, thus allowing for greater use of non-compressible powering-up such as Astral Seed.

Also that once you go down that road, it's not only the demons and archmages that will have NI power, it's everyone with enough cash to kickstart the loop (not that difficult).

[Coidzor]

As far as moving planar layers, the only example we really have of that is what the Harmonium did when they crashed part of Arcadia into Mechanus. IIRC, it was not particularly pleasant for those in that layer, but the Formians survived to cause trouble for the Modrons.

The Abyss is inbeween Pandemonium and Carceri. You don't want to have your layer become part of Carceri. Pandemonium may be more tolerable, however.

[Gemini476]

Well, at least there's one good thing with going after something like Celestia - you don't need Wish to get the part of an Aleax of yourself that Ice Assassin needs.

Also, there's less support out there for the good planes so you don't need to fight as many statted-out enemies.

You're still pretty screwed, though. I'd suggest binding some Elder Evils and having their Signs screw up your enemies, as well as getting a copy of every avatar/real body of a Demon Lord/Archdevil that you can get a hold of and also Wishing the complete Pandorym onto one of the outer planes to get around his sign.

I'm pretty sure that you'd still lose, though. Gods will die and whatever five planes you sent the Hulks to will fall into infighting while wherever you sent Father Llymic will slowly become a frozen wasteland, but I'd be surprised if you manage to secure a piece of one of the big planes for a long time.

You'll need armies, of course. Armies of people of equivalent power to yourself, preferably loyal to a fault just so you don't get overthrown.

And then, once you've carved out a piece of the Abyss or Hell or Celestia or whatever to call your own? Then you need to start fighting to keep it. That's the real problem.

[Twilightwyrm]

The only additional suggestion I would make here is be supremely prideful, arrogant, powerful and tragic while doing all of this. If you want to rule, and don't mind being eternally tormented while doing so (virtually guaranteed, even if you succeed), simply making yourself amusing enough for the dark powers of Ravenloft to take a liking to you can give you an additional opportunity. Accomplish this and boom, you get to rule if you succeed (the plane you were after), and you get to rule if you fail (the dark powers "give" you your own demiplane).

[atemu1234]

I think taking over a layer of Baator The Abyss would be preferable to the Abyss Baator, if one's intent it to rule. Demons Devils are a savage, tricky, and untrustworthy lot. Devils Demons, at the very least, respect power.

There. Fixed that for you. Seriously, the similarities are there and with good reason. Demons respect things that can destroy them. Devils are more bureaucratic, conniving and are worse rules-lawyers than even the most anal of PCs. You're better off with a couple layers of the Abyss, as it's a chaotic enough place you may be ignored. If you're chaotic evil, as DM I'd probably have you transform into a demon by ascending the throne. Odds are I'd make a layer just for this.

[RedMage125]

There. Fixed that for you. Seriously, the similarities are there and with good reason. Demons respect things that can destroy them. Devils are more bureaucratic, conniving and are worse rules-lawyers than even the most anal of PCs. You're better off with a couple layers of the Abyss, as it's a chaotic enough place you may be ignored. If you're chaotic evil, as DM I'd probably have you transform into a demon by ascending the throne. Odds are I'd make a layer just for this.

Umm, no, I did not have it backwards. You "fixed" nothing, you actually have it completely wrong. Devils respect power and authority, and if you take over a layer of Baator and get Asmodeus' approval to stay on that throne (which, as I said in my post, you would need anyway), then the devils of your new layer will fall in line.

With demons you get no such assurance. And appealing to another demon lord for help will just convince that demon lord that you're weak enough to be killed and your layer taken over. So taking that one paragraph of mine out of context and switching it to be completely backwards "fixes" nothing.

It's because devils are more bureocratic and rules-lawyers that Baator's a better idea. If you have Asmodeus' blessing to rule, then for every plot to overthrow you, one of the plotters will likely "betray" the others in an attempt to curry your favor.

[atemu1234]

Umm, no, I did not have it backwards. You "fixed" nothing, you actually have it completely wrong. Devils respect power and authority, and if you take over a layer of Baator and get Asmodeus' approval to stay on that throne (which, as I said in my post, you would need anyway), then the devils of your new layer will fall in line.

With demons you get no such assurance. And appealing to another demon lord for help will just convince that demon lord that you're weak enough to be killed and your layer taken over. So taking that one paragraph of mine out of context and switching it to be completely backwards "fixes" nothing.

It's because devils are more bureocratic and rules-lawyers that Baator's a better idea. If you have Asmodeus' blessing to rule, then for every plot to overthrow you, one of the plotters will likely "betray" the others in an attempt to curry your favor.

No, Devils will obey anyone who can rule them. They believe in exemptions from the rules for the powerful, and that includes you. Demons on the other hand are chaotic, unpredictable.

[Phelix-Mu]

No, Devils will obey anyone who can rule them. They believe in exemptions from the rules for the powerful, and that includes you. Demons on the other hand are chaotic, unpredictable.

The major problem with demons is that you really can only "impress" the ones at the top of the totem pole, and they probably will still toss armies your way just to blow off steam. There is no calm or detente in the Abyss. Expect your "rule" to consist of every day waking up to endless horrors ready to crucify themselves on your doorstep, their only hope to vaguely add to your stress level. Winning and losing aren't things to normal demons; only those at the top of the food chain have such well-formed thoughts. Most of everything else is just an endless churn of violence, violation, and absurdity.

This is why I suggested laying plans for elsewhere if your goal is to actually rule something. If all you want is a bloody, nigh-endless crusade, well, of course the Lower Planes are a good idea. Personally, I've always had a thing for Acheron, but that's probably because I just can't turn down a place with layers that have names like Tintinabulus, or the incredibly sexy nature of Ocanthus (the image of Wee Jas endlessly searching the black ice for hidden secrets is super win).

[RedMage125]

No, Devils will obey anyone who can rule them. They believe in exemptions from the rules for the powerful, and that includes you. Demons on the other hand are chaotic, unpredictable.

Yes, hence MY point that ruling devils would be a better idea than ruling demons. Which was YOUR point.

[atemu1234]

Yes, hence MY point that ruling devils would be a better idea than ruling demons. Which was YOUR point.

My point is the irony of it. Neither can be truly ruled. Look at it this way: Until you've proven yourself above either, you've got a problem. Demons respect power and Devils will give you a pass because of it. No matter how long they've been at war, they're still so much alike.

[icefractal]

I feel like conquering a layer of the Abyss would be much easier - there's more of them, not all of them have particularly awesome rulers, and the other demons are not going to all form an allied force to defeat you. (Conquering the whole Abyss is probably impossible though, because infinite layers). However, conquering a layer of the abyss doesn't particularly get you much, unless you just like the scenery.

No matter how powerful you are, not matter how many fools you have eviscerated, the most you're going to get from demons (in general) is for them to obey you while you're personally there threatening them. Because they're just crazy like that. Ironically, I'd say it's the more powerful demons that you might be able to keep in line, because they actually have something to lose if you smash them, and enough intelligence to realize that. But most of the hordes? They're like the scorpion from the fable - they'll turn around and bite you even if doing so is a horribly bad idea.

So yeah - crappy minions you can't trust, neighbors who will tear into you at any opportunity, and landscape that's hostile to life. Do you really want to rule that?

[atemu1234]

I feel like conquering a layer of the Abyss would be much easier - there's more of them, not all of them have particularly awesome rulers, and the other demons are not going to all form an allied force to defeat you. (Conquering the whole Abyss is probably impossible though, because infinite layers). However, conquering a layer of the abyss doesn't particularly get you much, unless you just like the scenery.

No matter how powerful you are, not matter how many fools you have eviscerated, the most you're going to get from demons (in general) is for them to obey you while you're personally there threatening them. Because they're just crazy like that. Ironically, I'd say it's the more powerful demons that you might be able to keep in line, because they actually have something to lose if you smash them, and enough intelligence to realize that. But most of the hordes? They're like the scorpion from the fable - they'll turn around and bite you even if doing so is a horribly bad idea.

So yeah - crappy minions you can't trust, neighbors who will tear into you at any opportunity, and landscape that's hostile to life. Do you really want to rule that?

Yes. Because in a situation where I can get enough power, especially in the abyss, just keep your people fighting unwinable wars. Why, why you ask? Because the Abyss constantly produces more demons. So I can keep them distracted for an eternity with no downside.

[Captnq]

Simple.

Destroy the entire multiverse, down to every last particle and photon of light. Then start from scratch, making a plane called "the nine hells" and sit in it. Tah-Dah! Ruler of the nine hells.

I leave the details up to the apt pupil.

See, here's your problem...

You come up with the idea to rule the nine hells. Fluffmodeus has already seen you coming. Maybe he put the idea in your head. Now, Fluffy, not being one to waste perfectly good material starts dropping clues in your lap. Clues that will lead you on your quest to destroy him and rule the Nine Hells. The problem is, you are dealing with the master of the Xantos Gambit. Even if you win, you lose. Every clue you follow will serve his master plan. You will slay his enemies, or help his allies, or further the cause of evil.

Why? Because you have no idea what you are trying to do.

No, not what you are doing, what your GOAL is.

Your goal is: Rule Nine Hells.

That is so vague as to be meaningless. Fluffy doesn't rule the nine hells. He manages it. He directs it. He channels it, but he has no illusions about being the ruler. Even when he claims to be the ruler, he knows he isn't. But that's okay because his goals don't require him to rule. A light touch is far more conductive to his goals then an iron fist.

Why doesn't he rule? So nobody can take Hell away from him. You can't control it, because Hell cannot be controlled. Fluffy fosters the belief that you can rule hell so people waste time trying to do so. In the meantime, he furthers his own goals realizing that hell itself is nothing more then a tool. Even Hell is disposable.

[thethird]

So the objective is to rule the Nine Hells and keep them, i.e. kill as less people as possible... And try to keep the pact primeval working...

Be a psionic artificer

Create a plane that enhances spells, heightening them to YES lvl

Create a construct at that plane

Use planar bubble on the construct (outside the plane) so the spells you cast are heightened

Use the omniscifier trick for YES skill checks

Craft a contingent spell so you have a wish teleport to Asmodeus as you are under the effect of synchronicity

Use a staff of synchronicity with linked power to ritual of renaming, you are now by Asmodeus

With the action of the synchronicity activate a staff of unname on asmodeus (the save is YES because of the heighten effect and the truename check is also YES due to the infinite skills).

Enjoy as in the same round your linked power i.e. ritual of renaming comes in, use it to rename yourself with Asmodeus true name.

Use a staff of pact of return so you resucitate the moment you die from the damage you did to yourself to get infinite skills

Congrats you are now Asmodeus, conquered the Nine Hells, in fact you founded them.

[Melcar]

If you bring Larloch, Srinshee, Telemond, Ioulaum, Simbul, Elminster, Aumvor, Halaster Blackcloak and then 500.000 highly elite warrior you might have the slightest of chances... but I doubt that this is even enough. Oh yeah... bring some epic level clerics too.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Conquering the Nine Hells only using the published, baseline, stats for the various devils and Lords isn't that hard. You just build your infinite army of Ice Assassins and go to town.

'cept the problem with that is that they can do that too. And at that point a DM is well within his rights to pull off the most dickish tactics he can think of because devils (especially Asmodeus) do plan that far in the long-term and they've been doing it themselves for much longer than you have while having the exact same resources (if not more). The funny fact is that the same logic that leads to a Tippy-verse goes to a far more horrific place once you realize that the outsiders that exist are well within their power of doing the exact same thing but twisted towards their own spectrum of the alignment. And that applies to any super-being of the planes because all of them are extremely intelligent, extremely powerful, and all potent spellcasters. I'm not even talking fluff here where Asmodeus literally bleeds full hit-points/HD pit fiends.

Honestly, if you're dead set on becoming a god, slaying another god is probably the worst way to go about it because there is absolutely no guarantee that such a thing will actually work. It varies from setting to setting and DM to DM. If you just want to play warlord of the Outer Planes, you're best bet is either the Abyss (taking over individual layers would be much easier once you force the residents of that layer to bend the knee) or picking a fights with the yugoloths cause, honestly, I doubt very many people would care.

...Unless you're referring to a specific campaign setting, than you can probably get better advice. Cause it changes drastically between Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Golarion, Greyhawk, etc. etc.

[Khedrac]

Just to make conquering the 9 Hells harder...

If you are not a buddy of Asmodeus do not make the mistake of fully conquering any level before you off Asmodeus himself! This of course makes everything much, much harder as you cannot afford to manage a complete victory on any of the first 8 levels so you will always have enemies to your rear.

Why not? Well remember what happened to the Hag Countess, potentially if you become the ruler of a layer Asmodeus can just end you and remake the layer. Come to think of it he can do that to the current ruler of any layer you are crossing and destroy your forces that way. We know something about what is "outside" (poor choice of words) the layers of the Abyss, but what lies "beyond" (no better) the Hells? If you can find anyone who was on the 6th layer (if I have the right number) before the Hag Countess was physically turned into the new 6th layer you can ask them...

[Erik Vale]

-Snip-

... Wouldn't that cause your DM to take your sheet and say:
"What, your not (Name), your Asmodeus now. You just murdered yourself. Okay, Bobby, now that..." *Session continues normally*

[thethird]

You wouldn't be dead, that's for sure. You would have the true name that Asmodeus used to have, which might or might not make you Asmodeus. Still. Wouldn't you being Asmodeus make you rule the nine hells without disrupting the pact primeval, nor getting other parties to fight you for the spoils? I.e. what you wanted in the first place?

[weckar]

Essentially, the player character would stop existing as his name was erased. For Asmodeus, nothing would change, except he might wonder why his watch is a few seconds off.

[thethird]

Guys... changing your true name doesn't turn you into an NPC. You are basically applying DM fiat to TO.

[weckar]

Changing your true name to Asmodeus makes you for all intents and purposes, including mind and past and future actions, Asmodeus. You might as well be an NPC, because you can't change what Asmodeus would have done.

[thethird]

Where is that mentioned in the description of the spell or truenaming?

[weckar]

You implied it yourself when you declared that you, now Asmodeus, founded the nine hells. Either you are Asmodeus, or you're not. You can't pick and choose traits from both.

[thethird]

In hindsight I should have used blue. The thing is that Asmodeus stops existing, because you unname him, and at the next instant you rename yourself. If you want have a contingency to mindrape you with all your memories if you are ever renamed, that will ensure that you keep the memories, either way.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You implied it yourself when you declared that you, now Asmodeus, founded the nine hells. Either you are Asmodeus, or you're not. You can't pick and choose traits from both.

This is D&D 3.5, I damn well can have both!

:smallbiggrin:

[Vedhin]

Why not? Well remember what happened to the Hag Countess, potentially if you become the ruler of a layer Asmodeus can just end you and remake the layer. Come to think of it he can do that to the current ruler of any layer you are crossing and destroy your forces that way. We know something about what is "outside" (poor choice of words) the layers of the Abyss, but what lies "beyond" (no better) the Hells? If you can find anyone who was on the 6th layer (if I have the right number) before the Hag Countess was physically turned into the new 6th layer you can ask them...

I don't think the Ancient Baatorians are inclined to discuss things with mortals.

[weckar]

That's fair. But if it is really only the truename that changes, you've only taken care of two of the main obstacles: Dealing with Asmodeus (as I assume the unnaming would also unmake him? I don't actually own Tome of Magic so I'm going purely off your implications), and the superplanar legal aspect (presumably, although that's not guaranteed if there are other defining factors named beyond the truename). Big ones, sure, but not even close to all of em.

[Shining Wrath]

It would of course depend on the DM. Having said that:

Asmodeus is optimized to whatever level of optimization your table uses. And he's been that optimized since the start of time, more or less. His minions are likewise optimized. Many evil souls have descended to his realm, and those that had character class levels were likewise optimized at your table's level. He has been able to tap into the collective wisdom and knowledge and expertise of all those souls because when you're in the Nine Hells you answer any questions the Boss puts to you, and his sense motive check is higher than your bluff check with very high probability, and the consequences of being caught lying to him probably depend on how clever your lie was and whether he is amused by your cleverness.

To succeed, therefore, you must be capable of an attack that no one else has ever even imagined. Anything else, Asmodeus has anticipated and prepared for. He's probably got a special crafted device prepared by an damned epic-level artificer that automatically turns any Ice Assassins that come within 50 miles of him against their creator and teleports those IA directly to said creator, and so on for every other attack method someone has mentioned herein.

Are you not only powerful, but epically imaginative? Otherwise you are walking into a trap laid by a guy whose traps are legendary for being ... unpleasant.

Then there's the effect on the rest of the planes. Every deity has some sort of relationship with big A, and even if it's hostile it doesn't mean they don't prefer the devil (literally) they know.

In short, I don't see this working. Ever.

[Raven777]

Do you know what force could upend the entirety of the Hells and the Abyss? Germs (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5oh?Succubi-Energy-drain-is-the-least-of-your).

[Phelix-Mu]

Do you know what force could upend the entirety of the Hells and the Abyss? Germs (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5oh?Succubi-Energy-drain-is-the-least-of-your).

Suddenly makes the Tower of the Oinoloth seem much more relevant.:smallwink:

[afroakuma]

Am I needed in this one at this point, or no?

[ben-zayb]

If you are set on conquering a layer of the abyss, 471 (Androlynne) already has a colony of Eladrins waging war against the demons.

@Afro: feel free to chime in

[afroakuma]

@Afro: feel free to chime in

What's at issue at the moment? I'm a bit hazy on where we're at.

[ben-zayb]

What's at issue at the moment? I'm a bit hazy on where we're at.
Okay, too much ambition then. What about taking a single layer? Or would the Abyss be a better place to play warlord?Probably which layer (either in Abyss or in Hell) would be the easiest to conquer and maintain control. Not sure if Pale Night is just slacking or apathetic (or has her own ulterior motives), but if a bunch of eladrins can hold off the demons in Androlynne...

[afroakuma]

Probably which layer (either in Abyss or in Hell) would be the easiest to conquer and maintain control.

Oh there are endless Abyssal layers one could take over. Grab one of the uncharted ones.

Hell's a silly prospect. Asmodeus is a conniving sleaze.


Not sure if Pale Night is just slacking or apathetic (or has her own ulterior motives), but if a bunch of eladrins can hold off the demons in Androlynne...

You left out the relevant term: "playing."

Like a cat with a mouse. It's not about the control of the layer; it's about how many of the eladrin children they can murder, and at what rate. Pale Night uses Androlynne to blow off steam. She resides deep within Baphomet's Endless Maze.

[No brains]

Nanomachines, son, I am disappoint.

What is this? Somebody asks about a Gordian knot and none of you pull a knife? For shame. We're not even getting into why this is impossible. It's just DM fiat and they can do what we can do. If we take our time explaining why this is impossible, we're gradually figure out why we're wrong! Take it from an idiot who is literally wrong all the time. Cosmic science is never accomplished in one good guess and then done, it's about stretching our imaginations larger than the most infamous shock sites and killing as many money-nauts as we can pack into rockets! Don your Red Mage caps! Kegstand your thinking potions! Go into Hell and from it spit your last grody loogie of a breath into the eye of god! Who is with me!?

Here's my ideas.

One, win initiative. It usually helps.

Two, game the situation so that it is in Asmodeus' best interest to lose. If (even the small and seized chance of) winning something greater than possessing the Nine Hells comes along, count on an ancient, infinite intelligence to take it. It may destroy the rest of the cosmology, but we will fulfill out mission parameters.

Three, cheat the very idea of how you cheat. If the DM will match you on every level you abuse, then carefully pick what and how you abuse. If you abuse your abuses, the DM may get caught in a cage of dead-end rules. It's a cage you have built and have the advantage in the huge WWE fights that will happen within.

Four, wear combat boot Heelies. Seek you gnomes and shoot the ugly poodle.

Five, create the plan, but never speak of it. You can only be beaten when you actually attempt to do something. Do nothing, or do something "by accident" and you can secure number three.

Six, make failure boring and victory too much fun. D&D is about fun. If the DM needs to tediously strangle the fun out of all of the time spent with 4+ other people to win, their prize is a BK crown with 'Phyrrus' scribbled in the rim. If losing will be more fun than they could hope to spend money on, failure will be welcomes.

Seven, stop reading this. For the sake of your WIS score, turn back now!

Eight, serve Hell incompetently. D&D and capricious DMs can carry enormous penalties for failure and failure is easy. To defeat Hell most quickly, endeavor to serve it with no more than one-eighth your total ass. If every good campaign makes the PCs the only hope of heaven, then an evil one can make them the biggest liability of evil.

Nine, eh, I don't know. I'm not the one who can do this. I can sing my bardic music, but someone else must take that +1 and they must stick it into the blackest place where the sun doesn't shine. I'm talking about his heart. The first thing needed for this to get done is for another to take my inspiration. Even if it's less to really believe in their cause so much as to entertain it for the lulz, the first step is to just have the vague image of victory in their mind.

Ten, make some point about hope, dreams and get your ruby brooch. Post over. Gaiman=Very Yes.

I should have thought of this like a billion years ago!

[Phelix-Mu]

Nanomachines, son, I am disappoint.

What is this? Somebody asks about a Gordian knot and none of you pull a knife? For shame. We're not even getting into why this is impossible. It's just DM fiat and they can do what we can do. If we take our time explaining why this is impossible, we're gradually figure out why we're wrong! Take it from an idiot who is literally wrong all the time. Cosmic science is never accomplished in one good guess and then done, it's about stretching our imaginations larger than the most infamous shock sites and killing as many money-nauts as we can pack into rockets! Don your Red Mage caps! Kegstand your thinking potions! Go into Hell and from it spit your last grody loogie of a breath into the eye of god! Who is with me!?

Here's my ideas.

One, win initiative. It usually helps.

Two, game the situation so that it is in Asmodeus' best interest to lose. If (even the small and seized chance of) winning something greater than possessing the Nine Hells comes along, count on an ancient, infinite intelligence to take it. It may destroy the rest of the cosmology, but we will fulfill out mission parameters.

Three, cheat the very idea of how you cheat. If the DM will match you on every level you abuse, then carefully pick what and how you abuse. If you abuse your abuses, the DM may get caught in a cage of dead-end rules. It's a cage you have built and have the advantage in the huge WWE fights that will happen within.

Four, wear combat boot Heelies. Seek you gnomes and shoot the ugly poodle.

Five, create the plan, but never speak of it. You can only be beaten when you actually attempt to do something. Do nothing, or do something "by accident" and you can secure number three.

Six, make failure boring and victory too much fun. D&D is about fun. If the DM needs to tediously strangle the fun out of all of the time spent with 4+ other people to win, their prize is a BK crown with 'Phyrrus' scribbled in the rim. If losing will be more fun than they could hope to spend money on, failure will be welcomes.

Seven, stop reading this. For the sake of your WIS score, turn back now!

Eight, serve Hell incompetently. D&D and capricious DMs can carry enormous penalties for failure and failure is easy. To defeat Hell most quickly, endeavor to serve it with no more than one-eighth your total ass. If every good campaign makes the PCs the only hope of heaven, then an evil one can make them the biggest liability of evil.

Nine, eh, I don't know. I'm not the one who can do this. I can sing my bardic music, but someone else must take that +1 and they must stick it into the blackest place where the sun doesn't shine. I'm talking about his heart. The first thing needed for this to get done is for another to take my inspiration. Even if it's less to really believe in their cause so much as to entertain it for the lulz, the first step is to just have the vague image of victory in their mind.

Ten, make some point about hope, dreams and get your ruby brooch. Post over. Gaiman=Very Yes.

I should have thought of this like a billion years ago!

I really like where this is going. To our erudite forum expository, of course Asmodeus seems impossible to beat. He may very well be so on paper. But once he enters play around a given table, where the DM defines all the rules, it really becomes a matter not so much of what can theoretically be done against paper Asmodeus, as what can be done to defeat the DM's idea that Asmodeus as a being is invincible his/her campaign.

That's a solid place to start a strategy. Though, it might also well be pointed out that the only enemy more fearsome than Asmodeus is the DM. Don't make an enemy of your DM, kids. That's not how the game is played (unless it is, in which case, go for it).

[Effero]

Germs and tricking the DM, at least things are looking more in my favor... if not by more than an ant's stroll under Asmodeus's magnifying glass. Currently I'm thinking about going psion and fusing with a wyrmling time dragon and just waiting it out until great wyrm. But that is really up to the DM.

[icefractal]

(Stuff)There's some truth here ... which makes this an interesting situation. I think that it's possible to defeat Asmodeus - but impossible to write down how you'd do it.

When a trick is posted here, there are dozens of people who can figure it out and demonstrate who Asmodeus could do the same thing but better. But in the actual case of a single DM? It's not impossible; you could construct a situation where several previously established facts yielded an inescapable result of "Asmodeus is screwed." Not easy by any means, but not impossible.

Of course then you still have to rule hell, fight off the attacks from all the other devils who'll try to backstab you, deal with gods that don't like the new order of things, and avoid the many, many, doomsday scenarios that Asmodeus will have set up for the sake of spite. But hey, you'll still have done it.

[thethird]

I did post a trick to defeat Asmodeus, it wasn't countered (arguments against it where DM fiat and outside the rules, clearly missunderstanding one spell)

[Angelalex242]

The great truth of life is...Asmodeus in any given campaign is no smarter then the GM of that campaign. If you can defeat your GM's intelligence and planning, if you can back him into a corner and say gotcha, then you can beat Asmodeus, because his intelligence is essentially limited by what your GM can think of.

A GM who's never heard of Pun Pun won't be prepared for Asmodeus to beat Pun Pun. He'll have only his own knowledge and experience, and they may prove insufficient.

[atemu1234]

Quite frankly I'll agree with Afro. It wouldn't be hard to grab one of the infinite planes of the abyss (read: "infinite") and rule it. But remember, demons are only loyal to the abyss. They'll respect you as long as you hold power. But once you show a bit of mortal weakness, well... It was fun while it lasted. I'd recommend to your DM to homebrew something to give you the Demon Lord template from Dragon Magazine #359. This'd make it so you're a sort of "naturalized" ruler.

[Effero]

I'd recommend to your DM to homebrew something to give you the Demon Lord template from Dragon Magazine #359. This'd make it so you're a sort of "naturalized" ruler.

Thanks, I've never seen that template before. It will help that there is a baseline to work from in Dragon Magazine. From what I read the Abyss itself can corrupt the creatures in it, turning them into demons/demon lords. In Savage Tide if you take the title of Prince of Demons the Abyss changes you and you can even grow another head... so I should have enough to present a case for becoming a Demon Lord simply by controlling a layer for a time (don't know how long though, so I have to become immortal or close to).

[Gildedragon]

Quite frankly I'll agree with Afro. It wouldn't be hard to grab one of the infinite planes of the abyss (read: "infinite") and rule it. But remember, demons are only loyal to the abyss. They'll respect you as long as you hold power. But once you show a bit of mortal weakness, well... It was fun while it lasted. I'd recommend to your DM to homebrew something to give you the Demon Lord template from Dragon Magazine #359. This'd make it so you're a sort of "naturalized" ruler.

You could also grab an infinite number of layers and not inconvenience anyone else. A couple infinities in fact, ten or more even.
You could start making those more lawful and pay obeisance to you alone. Put lieutenants there that are very powerful, start capturing demons and Wishing them into Lawfulness, and drift that corner of the Abyss to another point in the great wheel.

[Effero]

You could also grab an infinite number of layers and not inconvenience anyone else. A couple infinities in fact, ten or more even.
You could start making those more lawful and pay obeisance to you alone. Put lieutenants there that are very powerful, start capturing demons and Wishing them into Lawfulness, and drift that corner of the Abyss to another point in the great wheel.

This can be done? Are there examples of it happening before?

[atemu1234]

This can be done? Are there examples of it happening before?

I'd go with no. The abyss rules the abyss: this is why Demogorgon is called the prince instead of the king. The abyss is all-powerful and would resist lawful activity on such a scale you couldn't get out the front door with that idea.

[TheDarkDM]

However, you might be able to drift a single layer of the Abyss into another spoke of the Great Wheel. It is, at the very least, theoretically possible.

[Raven777]

However, you might be able to drift a single layer of the Abyss into another spoke of the Great Wheel. It is, at the very least, theoretically possible.

And if it is, why not kill two birds with one stone and crash it into Hell?

[Phelix-Mu]

And if it is, why not kill two birds with one stone and crash it into Hell?

Was under the impression that these "crashes," insofar as they have ever happened, are strictly between two adjacent spokes of the Great Wheel. Could be wrong, though, but I thought I read that on one of these threads.

If someone could somehow live long enough to engineer multiple crashes, though, one could eventually get from the Abyss to the Nine Hells. Isn't it Abyss->Carceri->Hades->Gehenna->Nine Hells?

[afroakuma]

And if it is, why not kill two birds with one stone and crash it into Hell?

1) The only documented instance of a layer shifting moved it one position on the Wheel. Going from the Abyss straight to Hell won't happen.

2) In that same instance it was shown that a layer which moves doesn't add a new layer to the plane it arrives on; it just becomes part of another infinity. Fly your Abyssal layer to Hell (for the sake of argument, not because it can be done) and you'll end up under the jurisdiction of the local Lord of the Nine.

[Phelix-Mu]

1) The only documented instance of a layer shifting moved it one position on the Wheel. Going from the Abyss straight to Hell won't happen.

2) In that same instance it was shown that a layer which moves doesn't add a new layer to the plane it arrives on; it just becomes part of another infinity. Fly your Abyssal layer to Hell (for the sake of argument, not because it can be done) and you'll end up under the jurisdiction of the local Lord of the Nine.

Well, there we have it.

I would also like to point out that this whole process likely took a very long time, making it slightly less practical, as it's way more likely that someone can undermine your plan if the crash takes decades/centuries/millennia to occur. Not that it is impossible to arrange for it to be inevitable, but that is yet another high bar to meet in creating such a crazy ambitious plan.

[TheDarkDM]

Well, if you were really bloody minded about it in theory you could force your layer into such complete apathy/balance that you shifted to become part of the Outlands*, then shift gears and begin changing the alignment of said slice of the Outlands so it's shifted to your plane of choice. If that's your plan, though, you'd better invest in immortality and hard core social engineering/mind control.

*I'm assuming you can shift to the Outlands. I know you can shift from the Outlands outwards, not sure about the other way around.

[Gemini476]

And if it is, why not kill two birds with one stone and crash it into Hell?

That's a couple planes away, though, and you'd need to crash it through Hades, Carceri and Gehenna first.
Unless you find some way to turn everyone Lawful Evil (and not slightly-Lawful Evil or slightly-less-Chaotic Evil or just Neutral Evil) and thus change the entire alignment of the place, you'll have some issues.

One plan that I can think of that is pretty foolproof is to become a [Lawful] [Good] outsider through whatever method, Teleport Through Time to waaaaaay long ago (using Eschew Material Components), take up the name of Asmodeus, rise throughout the celestial hierarchy, and lead Celestia's fight against Evil down in Baator.
This is kind of like the Ritual of Renaming thing except instead of making yourself into Asmodeus he was you all along.

[TheDarkDM]

That's a couple planes away, though, and you'd need to crash it through Hades, Carceri and Gehenna first.
Unless you find some way to turn everyone Lawful Evil (and not slightly-Lawful Evil or slightly-less-Chaotic Evil or just Neutral Evil) and thus change the entire alignment of the place, you'll have some issues.

One plan that I can think of that is pretty foolproof is to become a [Lawful] [Good] outsider through whatever method, Teleport Through Time to waaaaaay long ago (using Eschew Material Components), take up the name of Asmodeus, rise throughout the celestial hierarchy, and lead Celestia's fight against Evil down in Baator.
This is kind of like the Ritual of Renaming thing except instead of making yourself into Asmodeus he was you all along.

Unless he actually is The Serpent, and thus presumably immune to that kind of wibbly wobbly

[Effero]

That's a couple planes away, though, and you'd need to crash it through Hades, Carceri and Gehenna first.
Unless you find some way to turn everyone Lawful Evil (and not slightly-Lawful Evil or slightly-less-Chaotic Evil or just Neutral Evil) and thus change the entire alignment of the place, you'll have some issues.

One plan that I can think of that is pretty foolproof is to become a [Lawful] [Good] outsider through whatever method, Teleport Through Time to waaaaaay long ago (using Eschew Material Components), take up the name of Asmodeus, rise throughout the celestial hierarchy, and lead Celestia's fight against Evil down in Baator.
This is kind of like the Ritual of Renaming thing except instead of making yourself into Asmodeus he was you all along.

I like this, it fits really well with my plan to fuse with a time dragon. Oh the ambition, and ego of this character... that's the fun.

[afroakuma]

Except that you'd lack Asmodeus's capacity to rule the plane, which is not connected to his name, former or current cosmological locations. And so it would eat you.

[atemu1234]

Except that you'd lack Asmodeus's capacity to rule the plane, which is not connected to his name, former or current cosmological locations. And so it would eat you.

I was fairly certain his rule of the planes is due to his position as lord of the first; if you can supplant him, you'd control the planes. Of course, supplanting him is the problem, after all. Maybe you could use Baleful Teleport to send him into a Sphere of Annihilation? But odds are the terms of the Pact Primeval protect him in that situation. Odds are you're better off swearing loyalty to him, killing the lord of another of the planes and becoming lord there. At least then you aren't fighting a losing battle that you'll always lose.

[Phelix-Mu]

Sadly, once we introduce time travel, all bets on sane plot resolution go out the window.

The Rub:

- Asmodeus wants a vacation. He's all responsibility and stuff, but, honestly, these whiny Archdukes. So he decides to schedule a bit of a break.

- Oh, right. Pact Primordial. Damn, sounds like he won't be able to cash in on that sweet deal from Hotels.com at that nice B&B in the Beastlands.

- But wait. Teleport through time solves all of his problems. (Which is why this spell just shouldn't exist.)

- Goes back in time, gets a certain person pregnant, and subtly influences her child to grow up to be someone that will one day want to take over the Nine Hells.

- The child grows up and "comes up with" this crazy plan to go back in time and become Asmodeus before Asmodeus was Asmodeus. Ho ho, looks like vacation might be a go after all!

- What's even better is that Asmodeus the First can always just show up, toting his sun tan and new celestial crocodileskin shorts, and micromanage Asmodeus the Second from behind the scenes. Just like always, kids. Don't be the obvious power. Be the power that all the other powers turn to in a pinch. When Asmodeus the Second can't handle it, he asks his new majordomo to help out. Haha, how convenient for Asmodeus. *evil twinkly eyes*

[No brains]

Wow. I didn't expect my psychotic rant to go so well. Glad you liked it. :smallsmile:

But back to the rant, you guys are still thinking about it all wrong. You don't want to win by adding options, you want to win by taking them away. If you fight Hell with supplements that allow travelling through time, Hell will have it too and have it longer. Play with only Complete Warrior, and Hell is full of incompetent samurai.

To fight hell in an asymmetric way where they can't win, you need to limit and then optimize your options. If you use Chaotic and Good means to fight hell without any way of faking being Chaotic or Good, then you can guarantee Hell can't return fire better than you could. Similarly, if you stay far enough away from cheese that allow saves or bonuses of YES, then that too can be kept out of Hell's arsenal. Like Sun Tzu said: be formless.

There are limits to this. We need to use stuff from BoVD or some other book that gives us an Asmodeus to fight. This gives Hell some good guns to start with, but locks Asmodeus into a set state of being. If we don't have a well-defined Asmodeus, then he could be be anything by DM fiat. If he's in a book, he still might be, but it's much less likely as per the rule of DM intensity/fun.

Likely too, we need Core. While it could be great to omit the books that define the powers of the class that Asmodeus can mimic and that the DM can just flatly cheat when needed, it's pretty hard to play without it.

Just remember buddies: cheese and BS should be kept out of the equation. The enemy can use it more effectively than we can. We need to turn a game of -well D&D is probably the most complex game within itself, so D&D- into a game of tic tac toe. We can't rise to their level, so we have to bring them down to ours.

See here for tactical advice:

http://www.nuklearpower.com/2008/01/15/episode-942-cross-eyed-traffic/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Antonio_Inoki

[afroakuma]

I was fairly certain his rule of the planes is due to his position as lord of the first

Ninth, and his rule as Lord of the Ninth is due to his rule over the plane. When the Lords thought he'd vanished, none of them just marched down to claim the bottom job; instead, they engaged in massive duplicitous plots against each other and waged huge wars to prove their capacity to rule the plane by pure force, to supplant Asmodeus's terrible control. If it were just a matter of having the chair, there would have been a race Downward.

[Graypairofsocks]

Conquering one plane of Hell, however...that just involves proving to Asmodeus you'd be better then the current guy in charge of that layer, and that you're willing to play by his rules, and bam, out with the old, in with you. The lords of the other 8 have been known to get deposed on occasion.

The easiest one to depose would probably be Levistus, Bel might also be disliked, but he has the allegiance of the Dark Eight and plays a major part in the blood war.

Levistus has Glasya and Asmodeus as enemies, so you would have to get them to put you in charge there.


The Abyss is inbeween Pandemonium and Carceri. You don't want to have your layer become part of Carceri. Pandemonium may be more tolerable, however.

What is so bad about Carceri compared to Pandemonium, is it the Demodands?

I can't remember.

It is probably something really nasty, isn't it.

[Garktz]

And also, it.s said (i think in "Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants Of The Nine Hells") that the only thing stoping demons to over run every thing in the multiverse were the devils and their blood wars

So if devils are called to fight at asmodeus side, wont they loose the war and demons and chaos would "win" they multiverse only to self destruct later because thats their nature?

[Elderand]

And also, it.s said (i think in "Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants Of The Nine Hells") that the only thing stoping demons to over run every thing in the multiverse were the devils and their blood wars

Well that and infighting

[Svata]

What is so bad about Carceri compared to Pandemonium, is it the Demodands?

I can't remember.

It is probably something really nasty, isn't it.



IIRC, it's a prison plane.

[atemu1234]

And also, it.s said (i think in "Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants Of The Nine Hells") that the only thing stoping demons to over run every thing in the multiverse were the devils and their blood wars

So if devils are called to fight at asmodeus side, wont they loose the war and demons and chaos would "win" they multiverse only to self destruct later because thats their nature?

Unless I'm mistaken, the heavens are still a factor. They managed prior to the big A, and they will after. Even in the current situation, I'm fairly certain they're involved. This isn't a two sided war, there's good, chaos, evil and law all fighting. I'm fairly certain as well that if things got out of hand Mechanus as well as Limbo would get involved, simply out of principal.

[Graypairofsocks]

IIRC, it's a prison plane.

Yeah, but I can't remember who is imprisoned there other than the Titan Chronos, and Demodands who are really more like jail wardens obsessed with keeping other creatures there.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, but I can't remember who is imprisoned there other than the Titan Chronos, and Demodands who are really more like jail wardens obsessed with keeping other creatures there.

They're prisoners too, they just aren't fully aware of it or are in denial.

Willingly going to Carceri once marks you so that you keep coming back until you find that the plane has you and you can never leave as best I can recall. Being sent there marks you and makes you unable to leave until you've become more powerful than the creature that sent you there(or possibly more powerful than the creature that sent you there was when that creature sent you there). So moving there is all well and good if you never want to leave ever again, but it's generally less than desirable.

[Werephilosopher]

Unless I'm mistaken, the heavens are still a factor. They managed prior to the big A, and they will after. Even in the current situation, I'm fairly certain they're involved. This isn't a two sided war, there's good, chaos, evil and law all fighting. I'm fairly certain as well that if things got out of hand Mechanus as well as Limbo would get involved, simply out of principal.

Before Asmodeus, they weren't really "the heavens." It was Law v. Chaos, and Asmodeus played a big part on the side of Law. The rest was pretty much the Wind Dukes, and they're nearly extinct- so while the Upper Planes may be able to stave off the Demons for a while, without the Hells to occupy the Abyss they're pretty much screwed.


Yeah, but I can't remember who is imprisoned there other than the Titan Chronos, and Demodands who are really more like jail wardens obsessed with keeping other creatures there.

Cronus, not Chronos.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, but I can't remember who is imprisoned there other than the Titan Chronos, and Demodands who are really more like jail wardens obsessed with keeping other creatures there.

As I recall (and you may want to check with Afro about this) the problem with Carceri isn't just the fact that it's a prison plane. The problem is that it damages your soul in such a way that you can never truly leave. Everyone who arrives in Carceri will inevitably return. Unlike that other plane, that gives you strength and youth but then keeps you from leaving (it takes three visits), Carceri is a blasted hellhole that keeps you coming back.

At least people who find a way out of Pandemonium can stay gone. Carceri... Ew.

[Garktz]

Unless I'm mistaken, the heavens are still a factor. They managed prior to the big A, and they will after. Even in the current situation, I'm fairly certain they're involved. This isn't a two sided war, there's good, chaos, evil and law all fighting. I'm fairly certain as well that if things got out of hand Mechanus as well as Limbo would get involved, simply out of principal.

IIRC and understood it right, at the begging was only chaos and demons came out of it, this wasnt good for the "universe" and law and celestials apeared to fight chaos, Asmodeus was the best celestial, most brilliant and the strongest among them and him and his champions became tainted by fighting these demons so devils were "created".
After that, good vs evil apeared, but long after that....

Asmodeus being the best on the celestial side, as I understood it, Is older smarter and wiser (and way more evil and lawful) than most of the gods, as they were "created" (dont know why or how some gods started to exist but hey, lets just say Asmodeus is older than a lot of gods)
He is that smart and knows the rules (universal cosmic balance rules) that well that he outsmarted and outplayed the gods to have it his way and a piece of land (now baator) has his domains...




The war deity drew forth his longsword of crackling lightning.
“It is your job to punish transgressions, not to encourage them!”
he cried.
Asmodeus smiled, and a venomous moth fl ew out from between
his sharpened teeth. “Read the fine print,” he replied.


So well, If he is confident to say that to Heironeous and outsmart him alongside with St. Cuthbert, Moradin, Yondalla and pretty much a lot of Gods.... I wont even call it Dm fiat when someone try to take over the nin hells and fails because Asmodeus

Btw gods vs Asmodeus, thable for Asmodeus is an aspect of him (I would say its like an avatar) not Asmodeus himself so not going to defeat himself but stand a chance vs his "avatar"

[atemu1234]

IIRC and understood it right, at the begging was only chaos and demons came out of it, this wasnt good for the "universe" and law and celestials apeared to fight chaos, Asmodeus was the best celestial, most brilliant and the strongest among them and him and his champions became tainted by fighting these demons so devils were "created".
After that, good vs evil apeared, but long after that....

Asmodeus being the best on the celestial side, as I understood it, Is older smarter and wiser (and way more evil and lawful) than most of the gods, as they were "created" (dont know why or how some gods started to exist but hey, lets just say Asmodeus is older than a lot of gods)
He is that smart and knows the rules (universal cosmic balance rules) that well that he outsmarted and outplayed the gods to have it his way and a piece of land (now baator) has his domains...




So well, If he is confident to say that to Heironeous and outsmart him alongside with St. Cuthbert, Moradin, Yondalla and pretty much a lot of Gods.... I wont even call it Dm fiat when someone try to take over the nin hells and fails because Asmodeus

Btw gods vs Asmodeus, thable for Asmodeus is an aspect of him (I would say its like an avatar) not Asmodeus himself so not going to defeat himself but stand a chance vs his "avatar"

My point wasn't you can get help from the celestials to overthrow him, but that if you did and the devils died out, there would still be a fighting chance between not just good and evil but between law and chaos. Who sides with who is up to debate.