Jowgen
2014-06-08, 06:57 PM
From what I've seen, the question when and on what skills one can (or should be able to) take 10 on seems to be a bit of a grey area. The rules give a good explanation for how taking 20 works (try and try again), but little as to how to explain a character taking 10.
I've heard explanations that taking 10 is "a single careful attempt", and that the general rule of being able to Take 10 on a check always applies unless specified otherwise; but neither of these resolves the issue reliably. "It's up to your DM" seems the be the general answer when it comes to the question whether a player can take a 10 on a skill where it isn't entirely clear if it makes sense for them to be able to do so, but I personally think it best when players have something on hand to argue their case.
So I've decided to scour the books for pieces of "supporting evidence" regarding the use of Take 10 on selected skills outside of combat and thought I'd make a thread about it, to make the collected information available. Ideally I'd like to compile a comprehensive list by having kind people contribute what they know on the matter.
I know there is a relevant Crystal Keep list, but it provides no references for its Take 10 info. For now, the table below will only have information regarding PHB skills, as I'm not to familiar with Truenaming, Lucid Dreaming and whatnots. Any feedback on my "supporting evidence" or just this idea in general is obviously very welcome.
SKILL
TEXT
REFERENCE
EXPLANATION
Appraise
N/A
Balance
Delzome's Iceforge [Adventure Description]: "More importantly, the floor’s icy coating requires constant DC 15 Balance checks to avoid slipping and falling. This assumes characters are taking care and moving no faster than half their speed. Let the PCs take 10 on these Balance checks; a character with a 16 Dexterity wearing crampons with no ranks in Balance (for example) can move about at half speed in these chambers with ease."
Frostburn p. 169
Self-explanatory
Bluff
Ritual of Theft Truebond Benefit [Item sorta-Template]: "You gain a +2 bonus on any Open Lock or Search check on which you take 20, and on any Bluff, Disable Device, or Sleight of Hand check on which you take 10."
Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Climb
Taking 10 example: "Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help (such as using Climb to ascend a knotted rope, or using Heal to give a wounded PC long-term care)"
Player's Handbook p. 65
Speaks for itself.
Concentration
Rituals of the Eldeen Druids: "When the ritual is completed, each participant who meets the prerequisite must attempt a DC 15 Concentration check (you can't take 10 on this roll)."
Player's Guide to Eberron p. 60
If you couldn't take 10 on Concentration checks this ritual description wouldn't need to specify that you couldn't do so to gain the ritual benefit. However, Concentration is a skill that is usually done to shut out distractions, so it might be tough to find a situation where taking 10 would be both useful and permissible...
Craft
Skill description: "You can’t take 10 on a Craft (alchemy) check made to create a ditherbomb"
Races of the Dragon p. 97
If you couldn't take 10 on Craft (alchemy) checks (which follows all the general crafting rules) this skill description wouldn't need to specify that you couldn't do so when crafting Ditherbombs
Decipher Script
Creating a personal cipher: "The DC for such a decoding attempt is 10 + your total skill modifier at the time that you create the cipher. (In effect, you “take 10” on a skill check to create the cipher, and those attempting to decode it make a Decipher Script check opposed by your take 10 result.) -Usually Secret Roll-
Complete Adventurer p. 98
This is a weird piece of RAW where you are forced to take 10 on a skill check, may require further discussion.
Diplomacy
N/A
One might extrapolate from Bluff, but that's about it as far as I know. Also, this skill is broken
Disable Device
Ritual of Theft Truebond Benefit [Item sorta-Template]: "You gain a +2 bonus on any Open Lock or Search check on which you take 20, and on any Bluff, Disable Device, or Sleight of Hand check on which you take 10."
-Usually Secret Roll-
Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Disguise
N/A
As it is a charisma based, Bluff-synergetic skill you may argue based on bluff, but that is it.
Escape Artist
N/A
It is sometimes opposed by Use Rope, which has an example below, so you may based argue on that.
Forgery
Border Guard Squads: "Border guards (and their companions, when applicable) always take 10 on their Spot and Forgery checks."-Usually Secret Roll-
Explorer's Handbook, p. 44
In context, this refers to Forgery as used as an opposed check to detect a Forged document. To my knowledge, this should not represent a problem.
Gather Information
N/A
It is a Charisma based skill with a knowledge Synergy, so you could potentially argue off Bluff or any given Knowledge
Handle Animal
N/A
You could argue it to be the Animal Equivalent of Diplomacy, which you can argue via Bluff; but may feel threatened by that bear you're talking down from eating you.
Heal
Taking 10 example: "Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help (such as using Climb to ascend a knotted rope, or using Heal to give a wounded PC long-term care)"
Player's Handbook p. 65
Only mentions long-term care in this instance, doesn't cover other out-of-combat uses of heal, such as treating poisons.
Hide
Infiltration teamwork benefit Tips: "If you’re part of an infiltration team, keep in mind that you can take 10 on your Hide and Move Silently checks whenever you aren’t being threatened or distracted."
Dungeon Master's Guide II p. 192
The Infiltration Teamwork benefit provides no special benefit as to being able to take 10, meaning one can do so normally.
Intimidate
N/A
Again a social skill you can make an argument for based on bluff
Jump
N/A
It is a movement based skill like climb or swim, so you could argue based on that.
Knowledge
Magic of the Land [Feat]: "To use the feat, you must succeed on a Knowledge (nature) check (DC 15 + spell level), made as a free action while casting a spell. You can't take 10 on this check."
Astral Caravan [Psionic Power]: For each 24 hours you travel, make a Knowledge (the planes) check against a DC set by the DM. Unless a location is particularly hard to find and well guarded, or conversely easy to find and well advertised, the average DC for an astral caravan journey should be set at 20. You cannot take 20 on this check, though you can take 10."
Marine Skills: "The DC of the Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check to oversee the successful construction of the ship in the normal build time. You can take 10 on this check."
Races of the Wild p. 152
Expanded Psionics Handbook p. 77
Stormwrack p. 86
If you couldn't take 10 on a Knowledge check, the Magic of the Land feat wouldn't have to specify that you couldn't do so on the check required for this feat. The Astral Caravan and Ship building examples are self-explanatory and given to demonstrate the applicability of take 10 to knowledge skills in different circumstances.
Listen
Phazeuroth's Lair [Adventure Description]: "If the trap is triggered, the noise alerts Phazeuroth, who is resting in area 2 and taking 10 on his Listen check."
-Usually Secret Roll-
Drow of the Underdark, p. 178
I just picked this example because I like Deep Dragons.
Move Silently
Infiltration Teamwork Benefit Tips: "If you’re part of an infiltration team, keep in mind that you can take 10 on your Hide and Move Silently checks whenever you aren’t being threatened or distracted."
Dungeon Master's Guide II p. 192
The Infiltration Teamwork benefit provides no special benefit as to being able to take 10, meaning one can do so normally.
Open Lock
Ritual of Theft [Item sorta-Template] "You gain a +1 bonus on any Open Lock check or Search check on which you take 10."
Dungeon Master's Guide II p.235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Perform
Heward's Hall [Magical Location]: "To gain the special ability conferred by a Heward’s hall, a character must possess at least 10 ranks in a Perform skill and must succeed on a DC 30 Perform check made as part of a public performance in the hall. The performer can’t take 10 on this check."
Complete Scoundrel p. 147
If you couldn't take 10 on a Perform check, this feat wouldn't have to specify that you couldn't do so on the check required for this magical location benefit. This has implications for other skills that can be used as a Perform equivalent (e.g. Tumble).
Profession
N/A
Not that anyone cares...
Ride
Influences, Taking 10 and a New Feat: " So, you can take 10 when riding down a road (on your Ride check, of course) and the ground suddenly becomes very uneven, but you can't take 10 in those same circumstances with goblins firing crossbows at you."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030225a
This is from way back in the day when 3.5 was in development and one of the game designers did Q&A's about the upcoming game.
Search
Ritual of Theft [Item sorta-Template]: "You gain a +1 bonus on any Open Lock check or Search check on which you take 10."
Dungeon Master's Guide II p. 235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Sense Motive
N/A
It is opposed by Bluff, which has an example, but that is it.
Sleight of Hand
Ritual of Theft Truebond Benefit [Item sorta-Template]: "You gain a +2 bonus on any Open Lock or Search check on which you take 20, and on any Bluff, Disable Device, or Sleight of Hand check on which you take 10."
Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Spellcraft
Magic Circle against Evil [Spell]: "You can add a special diagram (a twodimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. The DM makes this check secretly. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 (see page 65) when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes."
Player's Handbook p. 249
This explicitly allows for the taking of 10 on what is explicitly a secret roll, which is good to show that taking 10 is possible on secret rolls like Disguise.
Spot
Disguise Skill description: "Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and the check is opposed by observers’ Spot checks. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others don’t get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of observers who are suspicious, it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks."
Player's Handbook p. 62
It mentions taking 10 when doing a spot to oppose a Disguise check, but this application of Spot has no mechanical difference to most other spot applications. Read Lips is usually a Secret Roll.
Survival
N/A
I got nothing
Swim
Skill Description: "You can’t take 10 on a Swim check in stormy water, even if you aren’t otherwise being threatened or distracted."
Player's Handbook p. 84
If you couldn't take 10 on a regular Swim check, the skill description wouldn't have to make an exception for stormy water. No issue.
Tumble
N/A
It is a movement related skill synergistic with Balance, so you could argue of that (although falling from a roof seems rather threatening tbh), perhaps of the Perform example above.
Use Magic Device
Skill Description: "Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill."
Player's Handbook p. 86
Speaks for itself
Use Rope
Fun With Prestidigitation: "Tie: You magically tie a firm knot (as though taking 10 with the Use Rope skill) in a thread, string, cord, rope, or cable up to 10 feet long." -Usually Secret Roll-
Tome and Blood p. 80 3rd Edition
Quote is explicit but from a 3rd Edition book
SPECIAL: I'm thinking of including a list of ways to being able to Take 10 under stressfull situations (e.g. Skill Mastery gotten from various sources listed in the "List of Stuff", Warlock 4 or Magic Savant spell for UMD, Hardened Criminal Feat (City of Stormreach) and the Belt of Ultimate Athleticism from MIC).
Table for non-core skills, to be filled in as convenient.
SKILL
TEXT
REFERENCE
EXPLANATION
Truespeak
Because saying a truename is such an idiosyncratic, exacting task, you can't take 10 or take 20 on Truespeak checks.
Tome of Magic p. 195
Saying that, there are no penalties for retries so yeah... :smallannoyed:
I've heard explanations that taking 10 is "a single careful attempt", and that the general rule of being able to Take 10 on a check always applies unless specified otherwise; but neither of these resolves the issue reliably. "It's up to your DM" seems the be the general answer when it comes to the question whether a player can take a 10 on a skill where it isn't entirely clear if it makes sense for them to be able to do so, but I personally think it best when players have something on hand to argue their case.
So I've decided to scour the books for pieces of "supporting evidence" regarding the use of Take 10 on selected skills outside of combat and thought I'd make a thread about it, to make the collected information available. Ideally I'd like to compile a comprehensive list by having kind people contribute what they know on the matter.
I know there is a relevant Crystal Keep list, but it provides no references for its Take 10 info. For now, the table below will only have information regarding PHB skills, as I'm not to familiar with Truenaming, Lucid Dreaming and whatnots. Any feedback on my "supporting evidence" or just this idea in general is obviously very welcome.
SKILL
TEXT
REFERENCE
EXPLANATION
Appraise
N/A
Balance
Delzome's Iceforge [Adventure Description]: "More importantly, the floor’s icy coating requires constant DC 15 Balance checks to avoid slipping and falling. This assumes characters are taking care and moving no faster than half their speed. Let the PCs take 10 on these Balance checks; a character with a 16 Dexterity wearing crampons with no ranks in Balance (for example) can move about at half speed in these chambers with ease."
Frostburn p. 169
Self-explanatory
Bluff
Ritual of Theft Truebond Benefit [Item sorta-Template]: "You gain a +2 bonus on any Open Lock or Search check on which you take 20, and on any Bluff, Disable Device, or Sleight of Hand check on which you take 10."
Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Climb
Taking 10 example: "Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help (such as using Climb to ascend a knotted rope, or using Heal to give a wounded PC long-term care)"
Player's Handbook p. 65
Speaks for itself.
Concentration
Rituals of the Eldeen Druids: "When the ritual is completed, each participant who meets the prerequisite must attempt a DC 15 Concentration check (you can't take 10 on this roll)."
Player's Guide to Eberron p. 60
If you couldn't take 10 on Concentration checks this ritual description wouldn't need to specify that you couldn't do so to gain the ritual benefit. However, Concentration is a skill that is usually done to shut out distractions, so it might be tough to find a situation where taking 10 would be both useful and permissible...
Craft
Skill description: "You can’t take 10 on a Craft (alchemy) check made to create a ditherbomb"
Races of the Dragon p. 97
If you couldn't take 10 on Craft (alchemy) checks (which follows all the general crafting rules) this skill description wouldn't need to specify that you couldn't do so when crafting Ditherbombs
Decipher Script
Creating a personal cipher: "The DC for such a decoding attempt is 10 + your total skill modifier at the time that you create the cipher. (In effect, you “take 10” on a skill check to create the cipher, and those attempting to decode it make a Decipher Script check opposed by your take 10 result.) -Usually Secret Roll-
Complete Adventurer p. 98
This is a weird piece of RAW where you are forced to take 10 on a skill check, may require further discussion.
Diplomacy
N/A
One might extrapolate from Bluff, but that's about it as far as I know. Also, this skill is broken
Disable Device
Ritual of Theft Truebond Benefit [Item sorta-Template]: "You gain a +2 bonus on any Open Lock or Search check on which you take 20, and on any Bluff, Disable Device, or Sleight of Hand check on which you take 10."
-Usually Secret Roll-
Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Disguise
N/A
As it is a charisma based, Bluff-synergetic skill you may argue based on bluff, but that is it.
Escape Artist
N/A
It is sometimes opposed by Use Rope, which has an example below, so you may based argue on that.
Forgery
Border Guard Squads: "Border guards (and their companions, when applicable) always take 10 on their Spot and Forgery checks."-Usually Secret Roll-
Explorer's Handbook, p. 44
In context, this refers to Forgery as used as an opposed check to detect a Forged document. To my knowledge, this should not represent a problem.
Gather Information
N/A
It is a Charisma based skill with a knowledge Synergy, so you could potentially argue off Bluff or any given Knowledge
Handle Animal
N/A
You could argue it to be the Animal Equivalent of Diplomacy, which you can argue via Bluff; but may feel threatened by that bear you're talking down from eating you.
Heal
Taking 10 example: "Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help (such as using Climb to ascend a knotted rope, or using Heal to give a wounded PC long-term care)"
Player's Handbook p. 65
Only mentions long-term care in this instance, doesn't cover other out-of-combat uses of heal, such as treating poisons.
Hide
Infiltration teamwork benefit Tips: "If you’re part of an infiltration team, keep in mind that you can take 10 on your Hide and Move Silently checks whenever you aren’t being threatened or distracted."
Dungeon Master's Guide II p. 192
The Infiltration Teamwork benefit provides no special benefit as to being able to take 10, meaning one can do so normally.
Intimidate
N/A
Again a social skill you can make an argument for based on bluff
Jump
N/A
It is a movement based skill like climb or swim, so you could argue based on that.
Knowledge
Magic of the Land [Feat]: "To use the feat, you must succeed on a Knowledge (nature) check (DC 15 + spell level), made as a free action while casting a spell. You can't take 10 on this check."
Astral Caravan [Psionic Power]: For each 24 hours you travel, make a Knowledge (the planes) check against a DC set by the DM. Unless a location is particularly hard to find and well guarded, or conversely easy to find and well advertised, the average DC for an astral caravan journey should be set at 20. You cannot take 20 on this check, though you can take 10."
Marine Skills: "The DC of the Knowledge (architecture and engineering) check to oversee the successful construction of the ship in the normal build time. You can take 10 on this check."
Races of the Wild p. 152
Expanded Psionics Handbook p. 77
Stormwrack p. 86
If you couldn't take 10 on a Knowledge check, the Magic of the Land feat wouldn't have to specify that you couldn't do so on the check required for this feat. The Astral Caravan and Ship building examples are self-explanatory and given to demonstrate the applicability of take 10 to knowledge skills in different circumstances.
Listen
Phazeuroth's Lair [Adventure Description]: "If the trap is triggered, the noise alerts Phazeuroth, who is resting in area 2 and taking 10 on his Listen check."
-Usually Secret Roll-
Drow of the Underdark, p. 178
I just picked this example because I like Deep Dragons.
Move Silently
Infiltration Teamwork Benefit Tips: "If you’re part of an infiltration team, keep in mind that you can take 10 on your Hide and Move Silently checks whenever you aren’t being threatened or distracted."
Dungeon Master's Guide II p. 192
The Infiltration Teamwork benefit provides no special benefit as to being able to take 10, meaning one can do so normally.
Open Lock
Ritual of Theft [Item sorta-Template] "You gain a +1 bonus on any Open Lock check or Search check on which you take 10."
Dungeon Master's Guide II p.235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Perform
Heward's Hall [Magical Location]: "To gain the special ability conferred by a Heward’s hall, a character must possess at least 10 ranks in a Perform skill and must succeed on a DC 30 Perform check made as part of a public performance in the hall. The performer can’t take 10 on this check."
Complete Scoundrel p. 147
If you couldn't take 10 on a Perform check, this feat wouldn't have to specify that you couldn't do so on the check required for this magical location benefit. This has implications for other skills that can be used as a Perform equivalent (e.g. Tumble).
Profession
N/A
Not that anyone cares...
Ride
Influences, Taking 10 and a New Feat: " So, you can take 10 when riding down a road (on your Ride check, of course) and the ground suddenly becomes very uneven, but you can't take 10 in those same circumstances with goblins firing crossbows at you."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rs/20030225a
This is from way back in the day when 3.5 was in development and one of the game designers did Q&A's about the upcoming game.
Search
Ritual of Theft [Item sorta-Template]: "You gain a +1 bonus on any Open Lock check or Search check on which you take 10."
Dungeon Master's Guide II p. 235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Sense Motive
N/A
It is opposed by Bluff, which has an example, but that is it.
Sleight of Hand
Ritual of Theft Truebond Benefit [Item sorta-Template]: "You gain a +2 bonus on any Open Lock or Search check on which you take 20, and on any Bluff, Disable Device, or Sleight of Hand check on which you take 10."
Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 235
The Ritual of Theft provides no special benefit enabling one to take 10 on the related skills, meaning one can do so normally.
Spellcraft
Magic Circle against Evil [Spell]: "You can add a special diagram (a twodimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. The DM makes this check secretly. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 (see page 65) when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes."
Player's Handbook p. 249
This explicitly allows for the taking of 10 on what is explicitly a secret roll, which is good to show that taking 10 is possible on secret rolls like Disguise.
Spot
Disguise Skill description: "Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and the check is opposed by observers’ Spot checks. If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others don’t get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of observers who are suspicious, it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks."
Player's Handbook p. 62
It mentions taking 10 when doing a spot to oppose a Disguise check, but this application of Spot has no mechanical difference to most other spot applications. Read Lips is usually a Secret Roll.
Survival
N/A
I got nothing
Swim
Skill Description: "You can’t take 10 on a Swim check in stormy water, even if you aren’t otherwise being threatened or distracted."
Player's Handbook p. 84
If you couldn't take 10 on a regular Swim check, the skill description wouldn't have to make an exception for stormy water. No issue.
Tumble
N/A
It is a movement related skill synergistic with Balance, so you could argue of that (although falling from a roof seems rather threatening tbh), perhaps of the Perform example above.
Use Magic Device
Skill Description: "Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill."
Player's Handbook p. 86
Speaks for itself
Use Rope
Fun With Prestidigitation: "Tie: You magically tie a firm knot (as though taking 10 with the Use Rope skill) in a thread, string, cord, rope, or cable up to 10 feet long." -Usually Secret Roll-
Tome and Blood p. 80 3rd Edition
Quote is explicit but from a 3rd Edition book
SPECIAL: I'm thinking of including a list of ways to being able to Take 10 under stressfull situations (e.g. Skill Mastery gotten from various sources listed in the "List of Stuff", Warlock 4 or Magic Savant spell for UMD, Hardened Criminal Feat (City of Stormreach) and the Belt of Ultimate Athleticism from MIC).
Table for non-core skills, to be filled in as convenient.
SKILL
TEXT
REFERENCE
EXPLANATION
Truespeak
Because saying a truename is such an idiosyncratic, exacting task, you can't take 10 or take 20 on Truespeak checks.
Tome of Magic p. 195
Saying that, there are no penalties for retries so yeah... :smallannoyed: