In a world of TOB what can an Incarnate do?

[Giddonihah]

I am currently trying to make an Incarnate character for a setting that allows and encourages Tome of battle classes. When I came across a question.. is their anything that an Incarnate can do that I couldn't build a ToB class to do better?

Like I know both are around the same Tier, and both give melees great flexibility, but manuevers seem to be better than soulmelds. Though I suspect Totemists don't have this issue.

[Eldariel]

Tons. Honestly, Incarnates are more versatile than ToB classes simply by virtue of having actual magic. They are less amazing in combat though, but still plenty strong. Incarnate has great skill-boosting soulbinds for one, and magic. You can animate dead stuff, you can fly, you can teleport, etc. It all depends on your soulmelds and alignment, but you can do basically anything.

EDIT: Have a Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.0).

[PsyBomb]

Incarnates make superior skill-monkeys, even judging against other skillful classes. You will not be nearly as powerful in direct combat, just accept that, but there is flat nothing any ToB-focused character can outdo you when it comes to Face, Sneak, and Scouting roles.

What alignments were you looking at? This will change a lot about what you are capable of.

[Jeff the Green]

Incarnates make superior skill-monkeys, even judging against other skillful classes.

Depends. While they can get better bonuses and have a wider number of skills, within a given day it's less versatile. While a Factotum can usually max out 11 skills and have ranks in several more, and Incarnate can max out 2 (from a crappy list) and have a soulmeld to boost two or three per soulmeld, of which they get roughly (level - 1)/3. Plus you'll usually want at least a couple soulmelds for combat since without them you're basically a Wizard without a spellbook.

This in no way makes them bad; they just play differently and require more planning and foreknowledge.

Edit:
Oh, duh. I was going to answer the OP too. They, particularly chaotic ones, are by default the ranged combatants. Only Crusader gets bow proficiency, and there aren't a lot of strikes that work with ranged weapons. Incarnates can get stupid damage with their acid spit, particularly if they have a familiar, animal companion, or mount to share it with.

They'll also likely be dipped into by the ToB classes. All of them will like the advantages of a Lawful or (to a lesser extent) Evil Incarnate's melds, Crusaders will like the Good one's, and a Swordsage will like being able to boost his skills.

[PsyBomb]

Depends. While they can get better bonuses and have a wider number of skills, within a given day it's less versatile. While a Factotum can usually max out 11 skills and have ranks in several more, and Incarnate can max out 2 (from a crappy list) and have a soulmeld to boost two or three per soulmeld, of which they get roughly (level - 1)/3. Plus you'll usually want at least a couple soulmelds for combat since without them you're basically a Wizard without a spellbook.

This in no way makes them bad; they just play differently and require more planning and foreknowledge.

In-combat, if your DM rules that Soulspark Familiar counts as a Familiar, then Dissolving Spittle and the Share Soulmeld feat are plenty to at least keep in shouting distance of most damage benchmarks against anything that isn't acid-immune. Especially when all of your allies are TOB, he will likely do so.

You are right about having less versatility on any given day, and about their crappy base list. Thing is, that list includes Spellcraft, Know (Arc), and Know(Rel). If the Incarnate gets a night's rest to prepare (or has a use of Rapid Meldshaping left) then there is very, very little they can't accomplish assuming it is level-appropriate. Plus Mage's Spectacles, but that feels like cheating.

[Lonely Tylenol]

In response to the OP's title: multiclass freely into ToB classes.

Both Incarnum and ToB are very multiclass-friendly. There is no reason you can't use this to your advantage if you don't want to; you may even be able to ask your DM for an incarnum-specific adaptation of Jade Phoenix Mage, if you want to further marry the two. :smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

In terms of pure melee ability, ToB is better. ToB is Melee Done RightTM, and it shows.

That said, one of the big criticisms of ToB - and what keeps it in its mid-level tier - is the fact that while it does melee right, that's all it does.

Incarnum, specifically the Incarnate, has the opposite problem. Incarnates can do just about anything, and if they can't do it today they can do it tomorrow. Fly? Check. Prevent ability damage? Sure. Generic bonuses to attacks? Why not? Disrupt undead? Got that. Boost spell damage? Duh. The list goes on. Incarnates are extraordinarily versatile.

They're also underwhelming in melee. Incarnum functions extremely well as a supplement; it makes casters castier, melees melier, skill monkeys monkier. But on its own, it reads very much like a jack of all trades, master of none, and no area feels that as sorely as melee for the Incarnate.

You're right about the Totemist, though - it's a very comfortably-melee Incarnum class, and forms the cornerstone of some magnificent King of Smack builds.

But short version? Pure-ToB will almost always out-melee pure-Incarnate, and pure-Incarnate will almost always out-other-stuff pure-ToB.

[Giddonihah]

They're also underwhelming in melee. Incarnum functions extremely well as a supplement; it makes casters castier, melees melier, skill monkeys monkier. But on its own, it reads very much like a jack of all trades, master of none, and no area feels that as sorely as melee for the Incarnate.


Any ideas on how to go about this? The Incarnum handbook pretty much states 'Don't' when it comes to multiclassing. I mean.. I get how to do the casters stuff, but I never play true casters.

Are ranged Incarnates actually superior at being ranged? Cause I would think they get blown out of the water by that Throwing Prestige in TOB.

Anyways, so the Incarnate can't match Tob in melee. So I guess I should design more towards being a skill user in a realm of martial experts.

[Red Fel]

Any ideas on how to go about this? The Incarnum handbook pretty much states 'Don't' when it comes to multiclassing. I mean.. I get how to do the casters stuff, but I never play true casters.

Whaaaa? Incarnum classes are practically built for dipping. A couple of levels of Incarnate or Totemist can take any class and make it... classier.

Now, the opposite is a trickier proposal. If you're going with an Incarnate chassis, then yes, multiclassing will hinder your Incarnum-based abilities, because you're more dependent on those for effectiveness. For example, going primary Incarnate with a ToB dip may increase your melee capacity, but you'll need those Incarnate levels to get the extra essentia needed to optimally augment your soulmelds.

The question, then, is whether you're multiclassing out of Incarnate, or into Incarnate.


Are ranged Incarnates actually superior at being ranged? Cause I would think they get blown out of the water by that Throwing Prestige in TOB.

Distinguish "thrown melee" (Bloodstorm is crazy fun, no question) from "ranged." The fact is, ToB can do ranged - look up some of the Eternal Blade archer builds if you don't believe me - but Incarnates have more tools for ranged. Specifically, the Incarnate Avatar (for CN Incarnates) soulmeld is extremely useful as an inflatable source of ranged hit and damage.


Anyways, so the Incarnate can't match Tob in melee. So I guess I should design more towards being a skill user in a realm of martial experts.

Why choose? You mentioned multiclassing. There are some excellent synergies. For example, look at the Swordsage, with his tragically limited armor proficiencies (moreso if he takes the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation). Wouldn't it be nice to stick something in that armor slot, like a soulmeld? That Warblade is pretty awesome, with his Stormguard Warrior explosion of damage, but just imagine what a Totemist dip could do for his arsenal of attacks.

Sky's the limit, chief. Particularly if you take a soulmeld that grants flight.

[Jeff the Green]

Distinguish "thrown melee" (Bloodstorm is crazy fun, no question) from "ranged." The fact is, ToB can do ranged - look up some of the Eternal Blade archer builds if you don't believe me - but Incarnates have more tools for ranged. Specifically, the Incarnate Avatar (for CN Incarnates) soulmeld is extremely useful as an inflatable source of ranged hit and damage.

And don't forget having ranged touch attacks through Dissolving Spittle that a CN can piggyback Incarnate Avatar onto. Touch attacks are very, very good (though admittedly better if you can Power Attack with them).

Edit:
Dammit, I did it again.


Cause I would think they get blown out of the water by that Throwing Prestige in TOB.

Bloodstorm Blade's Throw Anything gives weapons a 10' increment, so a maximum range of 50'. An incarnate wielding a bow has a 110' increment. They also have a lot of good ways to increase archery damage.