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BlueWizard
2007-02-21, 03:53 AM
Alter Self seems waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too powerful when compared to the higher level spell of FLY. Alter Self even lasts longer. Is there some limitation I am missing. Here is Alter Self from d20's website:

Alter Self

Transmutation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#transmutation)

Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level): Brd 2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm#secondLevelBardSpells), Sor/Wiz 2 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#secondLevelSorcererWizard Spells) Components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components): V, S Casting Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime): 1 standard action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions) Range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range): Personal Target (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets): You Duration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration): 10 min./level (D) You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment), base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#breathWeapon) or eyes for a gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks)).
You keep all extraordinary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities) special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#naturalArmorBonus), natural weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities) special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision), low-light vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#lowLightVision), blindsense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense), blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense), fast healing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fastHealing), regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration), scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent), and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#templates), even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm) check.
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.









BlueWizard, again:
The one limit I do, is allowing players only to change into what their PC knows in the fantasy-magic world, but that can be incredible. A human could become a Sylph or Raptoran... or am I just confused on this one. Please help, my player in the post-it game: High Seas and I would love responses on this. Is there erratta I missed?

Saph
2007-02-21, 03:59 AM
You're right, Alter Self is more powerful than Fly . . . for its level. It's level 2 instead of 3, lasts ten times as long, and lets you do other things apart from fly.

However, if all you want to do is get airborne, Fly is better. Alter Self wings don't give you particularly good manoverability, so they're not much use indoors.

- Saph

BlueWizard
2007-02-21, 04:21 AM
All the high seas players need is to get out of the swamp water so my massive school of 4 foot-long electric eels don't eat them all.

Saph
2007-02-21, 04:24 AM
In that case, remember that Alter Self only works on yourself. So if the party needs to fly but not everyone is a wizard/sorcerer and no-one has the fly spell - they've got problems.

- Saph

BlueWizard
2007-02-21, 04:29 AM
I know, but still I think its a powerful spell.

Ramza00
2007-02-21, 05:01 AM
More or less yes, but I still like fly for its simplicity and the fact it doesn't have a 5 hd cap (but soon you can get polymorph and do so much more than fly)

BlueWizard
2007-02-21, 05:16 AM
It seems to me Alter Self should be 4th level.

Rigeld2
2007-02-21, 07:12 AM
It seems to me that you havnt seen the spell http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm

Yvian
2007-02-21, 07:15 AM
Is alter self better than fly?

It is like asking if a hammer is better then a screwdriver. The right tool for the right situation.

That being said, if you hit a screw with a hammer hard enough it will work. Yeah, alter self is better then fly most of the time.

Twili
2007-02-21, 07:18 AM
Alterself is by far better than fly...
there's no comparison with elf +otherworldy feat turned into dwarven ancestral.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-21, 07:34 AM
It is campaign dependent.

Assumption: Players are humanoid.

If flying humanoid races are common Alter Self can be quite useful as a spell for flying.

If flying humanoid races are rare and/or the players have no knowledge of such races they cannot use Alter Self for flying.

Allowing players to become anything they only have metagame knowledge about is not helping balancing spell such as Alter Self or Polymorph.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-21, 08:43 AM
Alter Self is of the polymorph line of spells. That whole line is made of brokenness. Alter Self is very powerful.

Lapak
2007-02-21, 09:13 AM
It is campaign dependent.

Assumption: Players are humanoid.

If flying humanoid races are common Alter Self can be quite useful as a spell for flying.

If flying humanoid races are rare and/or the players have no knowledge of such races they cannot use Alter Self for flying.

Allowing players to become anything they only have metagame knowledge about is not helping balancing spell such as Alter Self or Polymorph.This is the most important thing to keep in mind about the polymorph spells in general. A wizard who has been adventuring for years and encountered winged elves should be able to change into one. A wizard who has only read vague references to a creature called a Xorn in their early studies with their mentor, but never seen or scryed one, has no justification for turning into one even if they have Shapechange memorized.

Wolf53226
2007-02-21, 11:54 AM
So how familiar does one really have to be with a creature to be able to change into them with Polymorph or Alterself? If you have seen one, is that enough? Must you have fought one? Should you look into researching them after meeting them? Do you need to know the name of the creature?

As the above example used a Xorn, if you have met one, but don't know it is a Xorn per se, then can you turn into it, or must you research it to learn what it is?

Lapak
2007-02-21, 12:15 PM
So how familiar does one really have to be with a creature to be able to change into them with Polymorph or Alterself? If you have seen one, is that enough? Must you have fought one? Should you look into researching them after meeting them? Do you need to know the name of the creature?

As the above example used a Xorn, if you have met one, but don't know it is a Xorn per se, then can you turn into it, or must you research it to learn what it is?This is, of course, open to interpretation.

For my money? Having fought one is certainly enough to get a feel for it. Extensive research might probably also be sufficient; certainly research that included travel to its home territory for observation or scrying would be. You don't need to know what it was called, or even what it is, if you've seen Creature X with Features Y and Z in action.

It's a metagaming issue, and one of the most valid times for roleplaying to override non-specific mechanics; there just isn't any reason that a wizard who's never heard of, researched, or encountered a githyanki to turn into one. Heck, there's no reason for him to turn into a Dwarf if he's never heard of or encountered one of those. Knowing Alter Self or any polymorph spell doesn't imbue the caster with a magical knowledge of all existing creatures.

barawn
2007-02-21, 12:23 PM
So how familiar does one really have to be with a creature to be able to change into them with Polymorph or Alterself? If you have seen one, is that enough? Must you have fought one? Should you look into researching them after meeting them? Do you need to know the name of the creature?

As the above example used a Xorn, if you have met one, but don't know it is a Xorn per se, then can you turn into it, or must you research it to learn what it is?

Obviously, since it's not RAW, it depends. Personally I think Alter Self/Polymorph are ridicu-freakingly-ously broken, and so I'd put a heavy, heavy burden on it. Like you must research the creature for a minimum of 1 month per HD (dedicated research, no other tasks), divided by caster level, minimum 1 month, in order for it to be an acceptable Alter Self/Polymorph target, maybe giving transmuters a bonus as well, and maybe even capping the number of known targets for the spell.

Ticks me off that's not a RAW restriction on the Polymorph tree, though.

Starbuck_II
2007-02-21, 01:08 PM
So how familiar does one really have to be with a creature to be able to change into them with Polymorph or Alterself? If you have seen one, is that enough? Must you have fought one? Should you look into researching them after meeting them? Do you need to know the name of the creature?

As the above example used a Xorn, if you have met one, but don't know it is a Xorn per se, then can you turn into it, or must you research it to learn what it is?
Knowledge checks are enough for me. Remember you only get 1 piece pof info per amoint exceed the check (according to PHB) So to know Avariel (winged elf for example) can fly would be two over the check (1 for elf, 2 for fly). DC is pretty easy eventually though. Plus it makes knowledge checks used for their function, checking for knowledge. Obviously you should have heard/seen/read about one before a check.

Remenber: If human you lose the human racial feat (people deny this but come on; logically if your race gives you a feat than it is a racial bonus feat) while Alter Selfed so that is a con Fly does not have.

Subotei
2007-02-21, 01:16 PM
I'm all for reducing the advantage spellcasters get from such powerful spells. A possibility would be to request a Knowledge (Nature or whatever: Arcarna??) check to see if the Wizard knows enough about the creature to get the alteration right. Then you could assign DC depending on circumstances, whether he has done reaserch, knows the creature, is trying to cast while sinking in a swamp etc etc.

Doh - too slow posting

PinkysBrain
2007-02-21, 04:24 PM
Familiarity is not a balancing factor for polymorph type effects and never will be, since familiarity can, get this ... BE GAINED.

Either the spell is balanced for a given creature, or it isn't ... making people jump through hoops won't change anything about that simple fact. I can't quite fathom why people keep bringing up familiarity like it matters.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-21, 04:34 PM
While I agree with your point, PinkysBrain, I will say that the familiarity rule can be used to...err, dampen the damage from polymorph-like spells. Somewhat. Yes, familiarity can be gained, but only at the DMs discretion. If there are no Sarrukhs in the DMs world, you can't learn about them. If your DM says there's no way your character could know about Xorns, you can't polymorph into one.

Does this FIX those broken spells? No, you're quite right, it doesn't. But it does let you do some damage control, which is better than nothing.

Saph
2007-02-21, 04:36 PM
Either the spell is balanced for a given creature, or it isn't ... making people jump through hoops won't change anything about that simple fact.

Yes it will.


I can't quite fathom why people keep bringing up familiarity like it matters.

Because the more in-game work you have to do to make a spell function, the less powerful it is.

If familiarity requires a journey, skill checks, and days, months, or even years of work to acquire, then Alter Self is less useful. If familiarity is nigh-impossible to gain in-game (you have to have grown up around the species) then Alter Self is pretty close to worthless.

- Saph

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-21, 04:38 PM
Saph: it just means that the spell will be powerful *less often*. It's easy to write "grew up around X" into a backstory. "My daddy was a monster tamer," say.

Saph
2007-02-21, 04:41 PM
Saph: it just means that the spell will be powerful *less often*. It's easy to write "grew up around X" into a backstory. "My daddy was a monster tamer," say.

Agreed - but the GM is also free to say that winged elves, say, are not native to any of the neighbourhoods of the party and thus there's no plausible way you could have gotten familiar with one. This is actually pretty close to the truth in FR, if I'm remembering right - avariels are very rare, only existing in 3 or 4 colonies across the entire planet. The vast majority of people don't even know they exist.

- Saph

PinkysBrain
2007-02-21, 04:41 PM
You can make the hoops to jump so annoying noone wants to jump them at all, but if they are at all jumpeable they can be jumped for those creatures which work especially well with the spell ... and when they are jumped the spell is just as powerful as if they weren't jumped at all.

It's not even just about flying ... getting +5 to your armor, bite and claw attacks and the multiattack feat is even more overpowered really for a spell of that level.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-21, 04:43 PM
Agreed - but the GM is also free to say that winged elves, say, are not native to any of the neighbourhoods of the party and thus there's no plausible way you could have gotten familiar with one. This is actually pretty close to the truth in FR, if I'm remembering right - avariels are very rare, only existing in 3 or 4 colonies across the entire planet. The vast majority of people don't even know they exist.

- Saph

There are other flying creatures, like raptorans.

I also don't see why the GM would do that rather than just, y'know, nerfing the spell?

Saph
2007-02-21, 04:45 PM
Growing up around the species is but a note in your character background.

Which the DM is completely free to veto, especially if it's something that's obviously done for no reason other than to increase your character's power.

All the DM has to say is: "There are no avariels where you grew up. The species is incredibly rare and no-one even knows they exist." A player doesn't have the right to knowledge of an obscure race any more than they have the right to be best buddies with Elminster.

- Saph

Saph
2007-02-21, 04:46 PM
There are other flying creatures, like raptorans.

I also don't see why the GM would do that rather than just, y'know, nerfing the spell?

He doesn't want to use houserules? Same effect, anyway.

- Saph

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-21, 04:48 PM
He doesn't want to use houserules? Same effect, anyway.

- Saph

"No, you can't have known a raptoran" is functionally just as much a houserule as "Alter Self is nerfed". It's also easier to dance around. "Okay, then, I observed some troglodytes. +6 natural armor!" You'll wind up going "No! You can't have known anyone except dwarves, elves, and stuff!" in which case, well, why aren't you just banning the damn spell?

And let me assure you that plenty of powergamers could write a quality backstory that uses the Avariel or Raptorans as symbols as well as actual races, flight as a metaphor for ambition, et cetera, that a DM wouldn't want to turn down.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-21, 04:51 PM
"There are no monster X in this setting" is not a hoop that can be jumped.

Again, I'm not saying that this somehow "fixes" polymorph or makes it a non-broken spell. For one thing, theres waaaay too many monsters that are broken this way. But you can trim off some of the really sickening ones. Zodars or whatever those wish-using things are called, or the aformentioned Sarrukh.

Edit: it's also much more reasonable to do this for the obscure game-breaking high-level monsters than it is for things like winged elves, that make Alter Self a bit more powerful. So yeah, if it bugs you so much...change the spell.

Saph
2007-02-21, 04:52 PM
Disagree. "You can't have known X" is a background/RP ruling. "You may not use spell X" is a crunch/game mechanics ruling. The first allows you to get access to race X in-game if your character works at it, the second doesn't.

- Saph

Saph
2007-02-21, 04:54 PM
And let me assure you that plenty of powergamers could write a quality backstory that uses the Avariel or Raptorans as symbols as well as actual races, flight as a metaphor for ambition, et cetera, that a DM wouldn't want to turn down.

But in that case the player's actually putting in some work for it and making his character more interesting as a result. This doesn't strike me as a bad thing.

- Saph

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-21, 04:55 PM
But in that case the player's actually putting in some work for it and making his character more interesting as a result. This doesn't strike me as a bad thing.

- Saph

So... it's okay for a spell to be vastly overpowered if it's being used by interesting characters?

Saph
2007-02-21, 05:01 PM
So... it's okay for a spell to be vastly overpowered if it's being used by interesting characters?

Alter Self is not vastly overpowered. Polymorph is vastly overpowered. Honestly, I think you're just arguing for the sake of argument now. :P

- Saph

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-21, 05:03 PM
Alter self gives +6 or more Natural Armor, or solid flight capabilities, for 10 minutes per level. Coupled with an outsider race or Otherworldly, it can give +18 NA. It does this as early as level 3. It IS vastly overpowered--for its level.

The same reasoning and "familiartiy" stuff, however, applies to Polymorph, and was suggested for it, too.

barawn
2007-02-21, 05:08 PM
So... it's okay for a spell to be vastly overpowered if it's being used by interesting characters?

That's why I prefer the "must spend large amounts of study" houserule, rather than just "oh, if you grew up around them, it's fine."

Restricting the forms that you can Polymorph/AS into is nerfing the spell... somewhat, at least. If the DM says "no, you can only Alter Self into forms you've spent large study on", and then you have to devote large amounts of study to gain, like, 1 form, it's a much, much weaker spell, simply because in general you can't do that much study. You could even work up a mechanic to equate money with research time for beyond-level-1 characters (i.e. 1000 gp for each additional form, up to your level).

Of course, this would make a lot more sense if there was a mechanic in the SRD already for this, and Feats/PrCs which sped up learning about new forms while sacrificing other abilities, etc.

I think that actually makes the spell a lot more interesting.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-21, 05:08 PM
You could just give creatures you don't want them using the Archetypal Form ability.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-21, 05:20 PM
Restricting the forms that you can Polymorph/AS into is nerfing the spell
Restricting the actual forms yes, just restricting the number of forms no ... because it's not the flexibility of the spell which makes it overpowered, it's the very small list of creatures it works well with which makes it overpowered. You need only 1 of those forms to make it so.

So no matter what the hoops, either you make it so annoying to jump them that noone uses the spell at all (might as well houserule it away entirely) or they will jump it once (1000 gp for being able to alter self into a troglodyte, where do I sign?) and end up with an overpowered spell.

It won't make the spell interesting at all, because for non good creatures it will be too expensive to consider (except the "I take skill focus basket weaving" crowd) and everyone will choose pretty much the same creatures to use it with. Just as overpowered, even more one sided ...

Ramza00
2007-02-21, 05:46 PM
I find jumping through hoops to be annoying and sucking the fun from the game. You got an anal DM that is all. (note knowledge checks to see if you know the monster isn't anal for its a reality simple house rule) If you find alter self, polymorph, etc too powerful just say it. Don't make it into a cat and mouse game. Don't make the game into personal ego battles, D&D is a cooperative team game.

If the spell is too powerful houserule it. Only allow it to work from a list of predetermined forms similar to how Summon Monster/Nature Ally works. Allow the DM and the player to work together on creating an appropriate list. This is how you balance polymorph line of spells. Don't become an anal DM just because you can, become a smart DM that knows how to fight his battles and he prevents battles by being willing to work with his players.

Remember D&D is a cooperative team game.

BlueWizard
2007-02-21, 05:56 PM
Thank you all.

So it's not just me who thinks this spell is ridiculously powerful. As a DM for 20+ years, {and watched the game spiral out of control in favor of players... I'm of Gygax school of DMing, where death is very real in the game, and happens often!} I have long cracked down on metagamers and power-gamers, and I usually kill the PC or boot the player from my game.

The knowledge concepts above from some of you, work perfectly for my game's balance, since the spell is only 2nd level. I have long controlled polymorph in this way, by only allowing certain forms, but then I've had PCs play Druids, who want to bring past-life knowlege in. {One player wanted to be a megapede when he was Epic level.... that was just sick. Though he destroyed the tower he was in when he became one... and killed a lot of people.}

To not control this spell is to allow your game to be overrun by power-gaming. For me the fun is in the challenge, and I almost prefer flawed PCs when I play, because they are more interesting in the obstacles they must overcome. When one player does all from fighting, healing to divining, it becomes boring for other players, and the others often feel that person is just interested in a solo career; thus I boot them or kill the PC the moment they step out of line.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-21, 06:03 PM
If only mediocrity is allowed there is no challenge either.

BlueWizard
2007-02-21, 06:09 PM
I said nothing about mediocrity. I mostly run games, but DMs love it when I play, and always want me to bring what ever PC concept I have.

Mediocrity happens only if you allow it.

Kantolin
2007-02-21, 06:32 PM
thus I boot them or kill the PC the moment they step out of line.

"Hey, my transmuter just made it to level 3. Huh, what's an 'Alter Self'? Cool, so I can use it to transform myself into those troglodytes we fought not terribly long ago? I think that makes sense."

Not everyone who ends up doing so is carefully trying to break the game. Personally, I'm a fan of a nice aftergame, "Hey, that effect seems to be quite overpowered." Then either a "We need to take some steps to bring it back within reasonable power level for X" or "So I'm going to take steps to boost the general power level to even it out a bit".

Ramza00
2007-02-21, 06:35 PM
If only mediocrity is allowed there is no challenge either.

Its called creating an interesting (but reasonable and probable) weakness. Similar to how Durkon has an irrational fear of trees.

barawn
2007-02-21, 07:17 PM
So no matter what the hoops, either you make it so annoying to jump them that noone uses the spell at all (might as well houserule it away entirely) or they will jump it once (1000 gp for being able to alter self into a troglodyte, where do I sign?) and end up with an overpowered spell.

1000 gp is okay? Really? For a third level character, you've just spent a third of their wealth. Oh, and that third level character is a wizard, too, so it's not like they've got a ton of money to spend things on early on.

At higher levels, the spell gets less useful anyway.

But I do get your point.


It won't make the spell interesting at all, because for non good creatures it will be too expensive to consider (except the "I take skill focus basket weaving" crowd)

It's not a pure cost. It's a time requirement. The cost is just to equate time in campaign to time before campaign. If the party needs the form, they take the time and let the wizard learn it.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-21, 07:33 PM
It's not a pure cost. It's a time requirement. The cost is just to equate time in campaign to time before campaign. If the party needs the form, they take the time and let the wizard learn it.And he will learn the most overpowered form there is, because the hoops to jump are made so incredibly annoying.

PS. yes, I'd do it. Money's cheap, death is expensive.

Lapak
2007-02-21, 07:37 PM
"Hey, my transmuter just made it to level 3. Huh, what's an 'Alter Self'? Cool, so I can use it to transform myself into those troglodytes we fought not terribly long ago? I think that makes sense."This is the kind of thing which makes me like the spell.

And to answer the earlier question? Yes, I do find it more 'okay' for a spell to be more powerful in the hands of an interesting character. We're playing a role-playing game, and we're playing it to have fun. Someone who fights trogs and then turns into them is likely to enhance both.

Also, by forcing familiarity you DO cut back on one of the most dangerous parts of the spell: surprise powers. If they fight winged elves, I can plan ahead for the wizard having that capacity. If he can pull 'winged elf form' out at random, never having seen them before, then I can't ever know what to expect.

So, while it may not cut down on the spell's actual power, it both adds fun to the game and eases my work as a DM. And that's all I'm really concerned about; balance is not the end-all be-all for me or my particular group. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

barawn
2007-02-21, 07:49 PM
PS. yes, I'd do it. Money's cheap, death is expensive.

You're not talking about money. You're talking about starting wealth. You burn 1/3 of your starting wealth on one form for one spell, you're going to be a seriously limited wizard.

I think it's pretty darn safe to say that there are better ways to spend one third of your wealth. Alter Self with a troglodyte form is not an "I win!" spell. Invisibility (also a second level spell) will get you the hell out of trouble just as fast.

WildBill
2007-02-22, 12:02 AM
The other problem with the must be familiar nerf is the summon line of spells. You can just keep summoning and studying, much like druids can use the nature's ally line to get familiar with new wildshape forms. It doesn't really work for Alter self because of the type limitation, but it works just fine for the rest of the polymorphs. And the polymorph line of spells in made of the purest cheese that so broken it is crumbling.

BlueWizard
2007-02-22, 05:07 AM
On Polymorph now I really limit my players. Or Druids can be out-of-control!

Subotei
2007-02-22, 01:09 PM
Changing yourself into another creature is a classic fantasy/magical ability for wizards and the like - to ban it just because the game mechanic of the spells as written don't work is losing a hell of a lot of flavour from the game. Fix, don't ban.

Morty
2007-02-22, 01:31 PM
Changing yourself into another creature is a classic fantasy/magical ability for wizards and the like - to ban it just because the game mechanic of the spells as written don't work is losing a hell of a lot of flavour from the game. Fix, don't ban.

Meh. I've personally never liked the whole idea of changing into something else with single spell. It should be difficult, dangerous process to change someone's body. And breathing mammal with four limbs changing into ooze is outright stupid.

Leush
2007-02-22, 01:33 PM
Hello! I think I'm going to throw another wrench in! Can't resist. :smallbiggrin:
I just thought of something else that makes no sense about polymorph and alter self. Say a character has high mental stats and a good imagination. Why do they have to stick to forms they 'know' exist? It's not like knowing something exists affords you a detailed knowledge of its anatomy/physiology. So why can you only change into a form you know? Why can't you dream something up? (An answer other than 'game balance' would be ever so sweet- I know full well that it would be unbalancing)
Indeed even if the spell relies on anatomical knowledge of races, a char with high mental stats could plausibly use various examples of what he does know to form a working mixture/hybrid/freekish combination.

Therefore I think that rather than having various creatures you can and cannot turn into, have instead a sort of 'point' based system like for 'polymorph any object', only appropriately weaker and restrictions to same type. But that would be inventing another sucky overcomplicated houserule... Hmm.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-22, 01:48 PM
IMO the existing polymorph type spells belong more in conjuration than transmutation.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-22, 01:53 PM
IMO the existing polymorph type spells belong more in conjuration than transmutation.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

MrNexx
2007-02-22, 02:16 PM
A thought for future revision/edition: Every creature should have several Lore DCs... numbers at which you gain X information. DC 5 you gain some which is wrong, or incredibly basic ("That dwarf seems to be on fire. It might not mind a fireball.") DC XX you know it well enough to polymorph into it.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-22, 02:19 PM
Would you care to elaborate on that?For the exact reason Leush says ... the way the existing polymorph spells work would make more sense if they summoned a creature which you subsequently took posession of.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-22, 02:20 PM
A thought for future revision/edition: Every creature should have several Lore DCs... numbers at which you gain X information. DC 5 you gain some which is wrong, or incredibly basic ("That dwarf seems to be on fire. It might not mind a fireball.") DC XX you know it well enough to polymorph into it.

Newer MM's do just that.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-22, 02:56 PM
For the exact reason Leush says ... the way the existing polymorph spells work would make more sense if they summoned a creature which you subsequently took posession of.

That is not how I read what Leush said, but that is besides the point.

Given the description and the mechanics, I must say that I find it more "natural" that you body actually changes to resemble the creature, which also explains why you do not gain all special abilities of said creature.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-22, 03:05 PM
That is not how I read what Leush said
I didn't say he did.

He thinks the spell doesn't make sense since you can only turn into existing creatures, I agree ... I expand on that, but the reason I do so is the same as his.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-22, 03:19 PM
Maybe they should make two different versions.

One that changes your shape but only gives you the very basic physical qualities of that creature (cap on ability increases, speeds etc.).
It would be great as a disguise, getting limited access to fly and for minor ability enhancements.
It could also be made personal only.

And another type for complete customization like
Leush dreams about.


Edit: Or just follow the link in your sig ;-)

Gamebird
2007-02-22, 03:50 PM
Why do they have to stick to forms they 'know' exist?

For the same reason you can't cast a spell and duplicate any spell you know exists. Or another analogy: I can visualize something in a lot of detail, but actually drawing it recognizably would be very difficult. On polymorph forms, it's like a wizard has a book of photographs, which are all the creatures he's familiar with. When he casts the spell, he picks one of the pictures and turns into it. He doesn't have access to Photoshop and he's not a good artist. His attempts to turn into things he doesn't have pictures of simply fail.

D&D also doesn't have a mechanism for "partial success" on most spell effects (other than saves, which don't reflect the spell itself, but those affected by it). Like, you can't cast a Fireball with 1d6 damage, even if you try. Technically you can't cast most ray spells at inanimate objects, if the target line specifies a "creature". The rules just don't cover turning into a badly visualized imagined critter.

-------------------------

Here's my rules for familiarity:
Ř Polymorph and similar spells are subject to the following limitations:
o The form shifted into must be familiar to the caster. Familiarity requires 10 minutes of uninterrupted observation from 30’ away or closer of an average adult member of the species or race who does not have any class levels, templates or altering conditions applied to it. Scrying is sufficient for familiarity as long as the 10 minute observation is uninterrupted. Studying someone else who is transformed into the creature is insufficient.
o The form shifted into must have a defined breed, bloodline, species or race. Unique creatures are not allowable forms.
o The form shifted into may not have any templates or altering conditions applied to it. The form cannot be the result of infernal or celestial gifts or transformations, inherent bonuses, mutations, maiming, disease, aging modifiers different from adult, level adjustments, class levels, etc.
o The caster is free to use superficial changes to attempt to simulate a template or other altering condition. For example, you can polymorph into an elf and appear venerable (grey hair, wrinkles, etc.), but you take none of the penalties or benefits associated with the venerable age category.
o Polymorph does not reverse any templates or altering conditions that may have been applied to the target creature. Polymorph does not remove infernal or celestial gifts or transformations, inherent bonuses, mutations, maiming, disease, aging modifiers different from adult, level adjustments, class levels, etc. For example, a human with one arm who is polymorphed into an elf will be an elf with one arm. If polymorphed into a horse, he will be a horse with three legs. If polymorphed into a large spider, he will be a spider with seven arms.
o Shapes specifically disallowed as polymorph forms for the Kingdom of Mirram include: Dire animals, giants, hags, grimlocks, witches, ettins, athachs, trolls, barghests, lycanthropes, ocean-dwelling creatures of all types, simians (apes, monkeys, etc.), most “merged” creatures (owlbear, griffon, etc.), elephant, rhinoceros, giraffe, zebra, fiendish creatures, half fiends, driders, homunculus, animated objects, constructs (unless the target creature is already a construct), undead (unless the target creature is already undead), boguns, plants or plant creatures (unless the target creature is already a plant creature), elemental (unless the target creature is already an elemental), and vermin larger than Large sized.

The last requirement is either because those creatures don't exist in my game world, are not local to it (like the ocean-dwelling creatures), or are the result of magical investment (people become grimlocks by appealing to dark gods and gouging out their own eyes, etc.) or mutation (trolls, ettins and athatchs are all mutated ogres).
-------------------------

A peculiar thing about Alter Self - if a dragon uses it to assume a larger form, it loses it's Ex abilities, like Frightful Presence, Blindsense, etc. Even though it's still a dragon.

That *is* the way the spell works, right?

--------------------------

As for, "is Alter Self more powerful than Fly?" the answer is obviously Yes, though it can't be cast on others without unusual measures (Ring of Spell Storing, Imbue with Spell Ability, etc.)

As for, "Does making people jump through hoops reduce a spell's brokenness?" I'd say No. My familiarity restrictions aren't so much an attempt to make people jump through hoops, but to make it very clear to my players that just because they've seen it in a book doesn't mean it's going to show up in my game. Or that they can turn into it.

A lot of the Polymorph abuses become non-issues if the DM doesn't use abusive monsters. Just get normal monsters and add class levels to them if they're not tough enough.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-22, 03:52 PM
A lot of the Polymorph abuses become non-issues if the DM doesn't use abusive monsters. Just get normal monsters and add class levels to them if they're not tough enough.

It is for that reason that a majority of my villains happen to be 0-2 HD creatures with class levels in large quantities. It certainly keeps the players on their toes.

Gamebird
2007-02-22, 03:55 PM
Heck yeah. And a kobold with, say, 10 class levels is usually a lot more powerful and dangerous than a 10 HD monster.

BlueWizard
2007-02-22, 03:59 PM
Leush:
I think it is possible that your idea could work, but then I think I'd really hate that spell. Player: "I want to be an amphbious-flying-fishman..."
It would be endless. Though when Alter Slef is used to merely change the human appearance I do allow a lot of variety.

Fax Cel:
I'll need to look at newer MMs.

Gamebird:
Your list rules look great, I may have to incorporate some of the concepts to my game. Gamebird, Thanks.

And thanks to all, I just thought I was crazy as to how powerful the spell was.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-22, 03:59 PM
Heck yeah. And a kobold with, say, 10 class levels is usually a lot more powerful and dangerous than a 10 HD monster.

And a lot harder for the PCs to guess what it can do.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-22, 04:04 PM
Monsters are way less work to run than NPCs ... using throw away mid/high level NPCs is a pain (their creation can be partly automated, but not their playing).

BlueWizard
2007-02-22, 04:09 PM
Class levels to monsters are great!

MobiusKlein
2007-02-22, 06:26 PM
What I hate about the polymorph family of spells is the raw bookkeeping. Figure out the bonuses to Con / Str / Dex, what abilities are racial vs supernatural, and all that. Blech!

How about
Alter Self) Change your physical shape to anything with your same subtype.
While changed, you can pick one ability from the list below and gain that, as appropriate for the creature Altered into:
+2 natural ac
X Climb speed
X Swim speed.
etc.

To be a convincing X, you must have familiarity with X.

BlueWizard
2007-03-03, 07:24 AM
I do like limiting it... but I still want the players to be creative.

Aquillion
2007-03-04, 01:31 AM
One nice thing about making players actually have knowledge of a monster before changing shape into it or whatever is that it can actually be used as a sort of plot hook--a wizard or druid might want to explore the world (or travel to a world-famous library) simply to learn about creatures. The goal of studying animals is particularly suitable to a druid.

It also helps restrict what it really the most broken part of shapechanging, which is that theoretically anyone who changes shapes can use any creature from any publication anywhere. Even if players can take the time to put specific broken animal X in their background, that's not nearly as broken as the player who keeps seventeen supplimental books of creatures on the table at all times and picks-and-chooses whatever is best for the situation out of all of them.

(That said, if I was going to make one errata to the D&D rules to fix this, the first thing I'd do would be to make it so anyone who has the ability to change form, particularly basic Wild Shape, would have a set list of specific creatures that they 'have studied' as shapes and can therefore transform into, to which they can add a few things from other set lists every level--a PRC would be available for more whatever-you-want transformation, but it would have no spell progression, and full functionality would only come after 10 levels in it. If a player wants to play Monkey from Journey to the West, that's fine, but given how powerful that sort of transformation is it's fair to make them devote most of their character to it.)

Sardia
2007-03-04, 01:51 AM
One nice thing about making players actually have knowledge of a monster before changing shape into it or whatever is that it can actually be used as a sort of plot hook--a wizard or druid might want to explore the world (or travel to a world-famous library) simply to learn about creatures. The goal of studying animals is particularly suitable to a druid.


A spell to extract useful information from the animal might be interesting too-- have to find one, keep it within range for the casting time (10 minutes?) and then you're free to polymorph into it ever after.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-04, 02:00 PM
Having lots of choice makes polymorph stronger, but in the end what you are looking for is high NA and high physical ability scores. If you have one of the forms which provide those you have broken the spell ... that you can break it a little further is irrelevant. A single form is all it takes.

Nahal
2007-03-04, 04:51 PM
I'm a fan of limiting forms to what you can prove you know about (knowledge: whatever check though specific DC's need to be established) or else limiting the bonuses you can gain. After all it's a low-level, highly imperfect transformation; why not say you can get no more than a +2 to NA regardless of the form you choose? Likewise other spells in the chain can be limited by spell level, or else forms flat-out rejected and Gamebird outlines quite well.