First time D&D player requesting help with a rogue swordsage gestalt build

[eternal]

So I'm about to dive into what I hope will be some god times. I'm a first time d&d player and since I've always liked stealthy characters so my dm suggested a rogue, he also suggested swordsage. The other players are doing something called gestalt. From my understanding it's leveling up two classes at the exact same time. One of my friends suggested I might find some help here.
We're starting at level 1 and he said something about path finder feat progression with two flaws? My race is human if that matters. The party is me(the rogue) a druid, cleric, and a barbarian.I have no idea what there second class will be. I'm hoping to get some good advice on feats weapons and general rogue things I should look for. So if anyone has advice or some really good tips on making this guy good I'm all up for it.

Thanks,
Eternal.

[firruna]

So I'm about to dive into what I hope will be some god times. I'm a first time d&d player and since I've always liked stealthy characters so my dm suggested a rogue, he also suggested swordsage. The other players are doing something called gestalt. From my understanding it's leveling up two classes at the exact same time. One of my friends suggested I might find some help here.

First, welcome to the community, I'm sure you'll like the game. Your friend was right, this is a great place to get your questions answered. Lots of experienced players and DMs willing to help answer just about any game questions you have now, or in the future.

As for your questions, I can only speak to half of it. I have never in my five years of playing, heard of gestalt. Sounds interesting, but I don't know about it, so I won't confuse you, me, or anyone by talking about it more.

As for the classes. I've run a few rogues built around stealthy play style, and your DM is right, good class to use for it, and easy to get a hang of as a new player. As for swordsage, I know people who really like them, but I never really did. Feels too much like my rogue is now a caster. If you're cool with that, go for it. Someone else will likely say something else, but that how I play.

As for gear, you want light armor so you can keep your dex bonus to AC. Light weapons so you can stay under the medium load, and so keep speed up. If you're going for complete stealth, which it sounds like you are, daggers, and/or a Sickle would be my choices. A long with a hand crossbow in a few levels, when you have the money, for the rang.

If there is something you wanted to know that I didn't not cover here, let me know, or I am sure someone else will answer it for you.

Enjoy the game
-Firruna

[aleucard]

The best selections depend on which type of sneaky character you want? Rogue//Swordsage is obviously best for playing a Ninja Assassin, but Rogue//Warlock would be good for giving a Demonic/Arcane feel to the character, an always-present way of getting distance Sneak Attacks (as a Ranged Touch, no less), as well as several out-of-combat bonuses. Rogue//Dragonfire Adept is good for if you want a Draconic feel to your toon, several out-of-combat goodies in a similar way to the Warlock, and an option for when Sneak Attacks aren't viable or you have a large amount of targets. Rogue//Factotum is your best bet if you want the character that looks like he can do anything and can prove it to a certain point (the PrC Chameleon will help MASSIVELY here, as well as for Warlock and DFA if you want occasional access to a decent Invocation that isn't useful all the time or Item Creation feats for the 'Lock), as well as being almost as good at crafting solo as an Artificer. Rogue//Bards are near-ideal Party Faces, with some good Buffs and Debuffs as well

What the best class to Gestalt with depends on what type of character you want to play.

[Xerlith]

You'll find general rules for gestalt here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

Basically, it's advancing two classes at once (you grab both sides' Special table, but pick the better of HD, saves and BAB progression).

That's why rogue/swordsage may be a bit redundant - they both get medium BAB, low Fort save and what you may.

If you want it - go for it though. Sneak attacks + flatfooting maneuvers are always fun.

Anyway.

Your primary stats: Dexterity, Constitution.
Secondary: Wisdom, Intelligence.
You can get by with a 10 or 8 in Strength, similiarily Charisma (unless you want to be the party face.)

Feats worth looking at:
Shadow Blade is a must. At low levels you'll probably want to be in Child of Shadows stance, later you'll get Assassin's Stance. The feat lets you add your Dexterity modifier to damage with Shadow Hand discipline weapons.

Craven - you add your character level to your sneak attack damage. Awesome.

Adaptive Style - Well, you should grab it on a Swordsage.


Classes to take a look at:
Factotum. A great Rogue substitution, with all skills as class skills and awesome Int-based abilities. Makes you a bit multiple-ability dependent with Swordsage though.

Warblade - Well, it's a full-BAB, high Fort Initiator class. Not really fits your bill, but with Factotum may be worth it for Int synergy.

Monk - Two levels of, and only two. This guy, with Invisible Fist ACF and Martial Monk ACF can net you two Fighter feats (without prerequisites!) and invisibility every three rounds. Great stuff, but forget that Flurry of Blows ever existed. You can trade it for Decisive Strike ACF.

ACF - alternate class feature.

[eternal]

The best selections depend on which type of sneaky character you want? Rogue//Swordsage is obviously best for playing a Ninja Assassin, but Rogue//Warlock would be good for giving a Demonic/Arcane feel to the character, an always-present way of getting distance Sneak Attacks (as a Ranged Touch, no less), as well as several out-of-combat bonuses. Rogue//Dragonfire Adept is good for if you want a Draconic feel to your toon, several out-of-combat goodies in a similar way to the Warlock, and an option for when Sneak Attacks aren't viable or you have a large amount of targets. Rogue//Factotum is your best bet if you want the character that looks like he can do anything and can prove it to a certain point (the PrC Chameleon will help MASSIVELY here, as well as for Warlock and DFA if you want occasional access to a decent Invocation that isn't useful all the time or Item Creation feats for the 'Lock), as well as being almost as good at crafting solo as an Artificer. Rogue//Bards are near-ideal Party Faces, with some good Buffs and Debuffs as well

What the best class to Gestalt with depends on what type of character you want to play.

I've always liked the assassin stealthy type of characters. Ironically I'll be working for a church as a covert operative trying to prevent a cult from rising to power. It's during a one of my "operations" that I will run into the rest of the party members. So I guess you could say I'm a good assassin? I guess :smallbiggrin:. My dm is a friend and so I'm running with the idea. He said most are crap so hence why I'm coning here. So I guess to answer your question I'm kind of a "holy" assassin. If such things exist. I've never done anything like this so I'm just rollin with it.

[eggynack]

I've always liked the assassin stealthy type of characters. Ironically I'll be working for a church as a covert operative trying to prevent a cult from rising to power. It's during a one of my "operations" that I will run into the rest of the party members. So I guess you could say I'm a good assassin? I guess :smallbiggrin:. My dm is a friend and so I'm running with the idea. He said most are crap so hence why I'm coning here. So I guess to answer your question I'm kind of a "holy" assassin. If such things exist. I've never done anything like this so I'm just rollin with it.
It looks like you're looking for something like the ruby knight vindicator, which is a bit of a cleric/crusader theurge class, from ToB, flavored as a sort of church hit man. I don't know if that qualifies as a dual progression class for the purposes of gestalt, but if you can run it, that's probably a good plan.

[eternal]

You'll find general rules for gestalt here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm).

Basically, it's advancing two classes at once (you grab both sides' Special table, but pick the better of HD, saves and BAB progression).

That's why rogue/swordsage may be a bit redundant - they both get medium BAB, low Fort save and what you may.

If you want it - go for it though. Sneak attacks + flatfooting maneuvers are always fun.

Anyway.

Your primary stats: Dexterity, Constitution.
Secondary: Wisdom, Intelligence.
You can get by with a 10 or 8 in Strength, similiarily Charisma (unless you want to be the party face.)

Feats worth looking at:
Shadow Blade is a must. At low levels you'll probably want to be in Child of Shadows stance, later you'll get Assassin's Stance. The feat lets you add your Dexterity modifier to damage with Shadow Hand discipline weapons.

Craven - you add your character level to your sneak attack damage. Awesome.

Adaptive Style - Well, you should grab it on a Swordsage.


Classes to take a look at:
Factotum. A great Rogue substitution, with all skills as class skills and awesome Int-based abilities. Makes you a bit multiple-ability dependent with Swordsage though.

Warblade - Well, it's a full-BAB, high Fort Initiator class. Not really fits your bill, but with Factotum may be worth it for Int synergy.

Monk - Two levels of, and only two. This guy, with Invisible Fist ACF and Martial Monk ACF can net you two Fighter feats (without prerequisites!) and invisibility every three rounds. Great stuff, but forget that Flurry of Blows ever existed. You can trade it for Decisive Strike ACF.

ACF - alternate class feature.

I'll look into craven as it looks pretty sweet.
I googled factotum and think for this run I like rogue better. Though thanks for the suggestion as it does look like a fun class to eventually play.
I guess what I want is a kick ass assassin who is capable of good damage and sneaking in and out of places.

I see your point, kind of, on the sword sage. Like I said I'm brand knew though I see where you're coming from in the saves.

Someone just pm'd me about a cleric "dip???" since I work for the church. Not sure what that is about...

[TheOOB]

As others have stated, I'd advise against Rogue/Sword Sage together. You typically don't want too classes that are similar in gestalt, as weaknesses are multiplied in gestalt, as you are typically fighting tougher foes.

As your new to D&D, I'd advise not planning your build super far ahead, picking a prestige class can be a big can of worms. You'll be just fine if you pick two good classes.

Some good holy assassins types IMO:

Crusader/Rogue - you're a strong front line fighter who can put out a lot of sneak attack damage and be sneaky when the situation calls for it

Cleric/Rogue - You'll need spells to be a good fighter, but you'll be super sneaky and have powerful magical backup

Cleric/Swordsage - Better than cleric/rogue, but also complicated

Monk/Warblade - Crazy kung-fu master

Ranger/Cleric - Like the cleric rogue, but a better fighter. No sneak attack though

[aleucard]

I've always liked the assassin stealthy type of characters. Ironically I'll be working for a church as a covert operative trying to prevent a cult from rising to power. It's during a one of my "operations" that I will run into the rest of the party members. So I guess you could say I'm a good assassin? I guess :smallbiggrin:. My dm is a friend and so I'm running with the idea. He said most are crap so hence why I'm coning here. So I guess to answer your question I'm kind of a "holy" assassin. If such things exist. I've never done anything like this so I'm just rollin with it.

Firstly, check this out (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) and ask your DM if you can just add any Assassin spells to your list for bonus points. Basically the exact flavor you want, in non-evil form. If you want to use poisons extensively, you're going to almost need the other half of your Gestalt to be Factotum. Load this one onto the Rogue side of the equation so you don't lose Factotum progression.

Second, the Darkstalker feat. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/lords-of-madness--72/darkstalker--512/) This basically makes you immune to damn near every magical method of detecting you that relies on physical senses, which is a lot of them. This makes doing the sneaky stuff MUCH easier at higher levels. There ARE methods of picking up on you (the feat in the same book as this that lets you detect the position of anyone in range of your telepathy, for instance), but those are generally more rare.

Third, which is more important to you, your ability to track your target or your ability to neutralize them? There are feats and PrC's that can do either, but ones that help with both are rare and usually sub-par in either field.

[eternal]

It looks like you're looking for something like the ruby knight vindicator, which is a bit of a cleric/crusader theurge class, from ToB, flavored as a sort of church hit man. I don't know if that qualifies as a dual progression class for the purposes of gestalt, but if you can run it, that's probably a good plan.

What is a theurge? though I looked briefly at the class and it interests me. Now correct me if I'm wrong it says I need at least one devoted spirit maneuver. I don't get that from swordsage from what i can tell. So how do you think I should meet the requirements?

[eternal]

Firstly, check this out (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) and ask your DM if you can just add any Assassin spells to your list for bonus points. Basically the exact flavor you want, in non-evil form. If you want to use poisons extensively, you're going to almost need the other half of your Gestalt to be Factotum. Load this one onto the Rogue side of the equation so you don't lose Factotum progression.

Second, the Darkstalker feat. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/lords-of-madness--72/darkstalker--512/) This basically makes you immune to damn near every magical method of detecting you that relies on physical senses, which is a lot of them. This makes doing the sneaky stuff MUCH easier at higher levels. There ARE methods of picking up on you (the feat in the same book as this that lets you detect the position of anyone in range of your telepathy, for instance), but those are generally more rare.

Third, which is more important to you, your ability to track your target or your ability to neutralize them? There are feats and PrC's that can do either, but ones that help with both are rare and usually sub-par in either field.

neutralize them. I like kicking ass and taking names. I'll keep that feat and prestige class in mind. Both look interesting as well. Though I think I remember him saying to stay way from avenger or something similar. I'm not sure but I'll ask again. :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

What is a theurge? though I looked briefly at the class and it interests me. Now correct me if I'm wrong it says I need at least one devoted spirit maneuver. I don't get that from swordsage from what i can tell. So how do you think I should meet the requirements?
Theurge is a term derived from mystic theurge, the archetypal dual progression class, and it indicates that a class advances the major class feature of two separate classes at once. In this case, it's a theurge for maneuvers and divine casting. As for devoted spirit, you either have to be a crusader, or pick up both martial study and martial stance, because you also need a devoted spirit stance. I would advise either putting all of the RKV stuff on one side, including crusader, and sticking more roguish stuff on the other side, or putting crusader on one side and cleric on the other until RKV, and then following that up with some roguish class//RKV action. Maybe factotum, just cause those fellows are sweet.

[firruna]

I guess what I want is a kick ass assassin who is capable of good damage and sneaking in and out of places.

Well, if your goal is to be stealthy ass kick machian, that happens to work for the church, but aren't set on a class thats centered partly around the church. Then I would run a rogue/ranger, rogue/fighter, or a rogue/barbarian. In that order.

The ranger would give you dual wielding for better damage, and help track the churches enemies, as a class ability, so you can spend your feats on combat things to help kick ass when you find them. It then also has a fast BAB, and fort save. Later it has spells, but I never got why.

Fighter would give you lots of customization in combat, from the bonus feats, but not anywhere else, so not so good out of combat. However it would also cover some of the holes in rouge in that it was fast BAB, and a good fort save, two sport that the rogue is lacking.

The barbarian would cover the holes of BAB, and fort save, but not help with stealth. Instead the rage could be a fallback for when stealth just won't cut it, and you need to fight head on. There a book that give a variant track in a barbarian without spending the feat on it. I want to say its dungeoncrasher, not positive though.

You might also look at a Rogue/Ninja. Not sure how different they are in stats, don't have my books next to me to check atm. However, they are both high sneak classes.

[eternal]

Theurge is a term derived from mystic theurge, the archetypal dual progression class, and it indicates that a class advances the major class feature of two separate classes at once. In this case, it's a theurge for maneuvers and divine casting. As for devoted spirit, you either have to be a crusader, or pick up both martial study and martial stance, because you also need a devoted spirit stance. I would advise either putting all of the RKV stuff on one side, including crusader, and sticking more roguish stuff on the other side, or putting crusader on one side and cleric on the other until RKV, and then following that up with some roguish class//RKV action. Maybe factotum, just cause those fellows are sweet.

several people have mentioned factotum. what makes them better at doing roguish stuff than rogues?

[eternal]

As others have stated, I'd advise against Rogue/Sword Sage together. You typically don't want too classes that are similar in gestalt, as weaknesses are multiplied in gestalt, as you are typically fighting tougher foes.

As your new to D&D, I'd advise not planning your build super far ahead, picking a prestige class can be a big can of worms. You'll be just fine if you pick two good classes.

Some good holy assassins types IMO:

Crusader/Rogue - you're a strong front line fighter who can put out a lot of sneak attack damage and be sneaky when the situation calls for it

Cleric/Rogue - You'll need spells to be a good fighter, but you'll be super sneaky and have powerful magical backup

Cleric/Swordsage - Better than cleric/rogue, but also complicated

Monk/Warblade - Crazy kung-fu master

Ranger/Cleric - Like the cleric rogue, but a better fighter. No sneak attack though

I like some of these ideas as well. Anyway to blend this with some of what eggynack was saying into a full build? What about feats?

Damn my friend was right. this is a great place for info.

[eggynack]

several people have mentioned factotum. what makes them better at doing roguish stuff than rogues?
Well, to start off with, they get all skills. Just all of them, everything from autohypnosis to iajatsu focus to speak language. Furthermore, they get a bunch of intelligence synergy stuff, such that their total skill points, from a starting point of 6+int, will often be higher than that of a rogue. They're a class that gets a smattering of spells, access to extra actions, and a bunch of other stuff besides. In many ways, especially the extra action way, it's the perfect class for the passive side of a gestalt.

[firruna]

What about feats?

That really depends on what you want.If you want 100% stealth, needs other people to find the target, and get him out if stealth fails, you want skill focus hide and/or move silent, and other like it to stay hidden, quick draw can help you look unarmed, and then stab someone before they can tell what happening.

If you want someone who can do a blend of stealth and combat, it starts to get broder. I would say figure out what yo want, pick classes, and then build the feats off that. Theres lots of great*feats, that are useless with different classes, and they are covered in class abilities.

[eternal]

Hmm. This is complicated Lol. I like the ruby knight vindicator aspect, the cleric aspect and I'm torn between factotum, rogue and sword sage.

[firruna]

Hmm. This is complicated Lol. I like the ruby knight vindicator aspect, the cleric aspect and I'm torn between factotum, rogue and sword sage.

I would go with rogue myself, but its really up to you.

[eggynack]

I would go with rogue myself, but its really up to you.
I'm not really sure what it is you have against factotum. It's a pretty sweet class. I mean, at the very least, it combines with the RKV half to let you cast multiple spells in a turn. It's certainly a less damage oriented option than the rogue, but honestly, that was never really the rogue's strong suit to begin with, as it does damage that is only somewhat competitive with a dedicated damage dealer, and does so much more situationally. The factotum is the best skill user in the game by a reasonable margin, and the other abilities are rather great as well.

[firruna]

I'm not really sure what it is you have against factotum. It's a pretty sweet class. I mean, at the very least, it combines with the RKV half to let you cast multiple spells in a turn. It's certainly a less damage oriented option than the rogue, but honestly, that was never really the rogue's strong suit to begin with, as it does damage that is only somewhat competitive with a dedicated damage dealer, and does so much more situationally. The factotum is the best skill user in the game by a reasonable margin, and the other abilities are rather great as well.

I don't like my spell caste mixed with other classes.

[eggynack]

I don't like my spell caste mixed with other classes.
Often an issue, and not really one here. This is a gestalt, after all. It looks like factotum can also do this natively through arcane dilettante, though that is admittedly a bit of a nova tactic, as those spells don't regenerate like inspiration points do. Not a bad plan to have in a pinch, however.

[eternal]

I'm not really sure what it is you have against factotum. It's a pretty sweet class. I mean, at the very least, it combines with the RKV half to let you cast multiple spells in a turn. It's certainly a less damage oriented option than the rogue, but honestly, that was never really the rogue's strong suit to begin with, as it does damage that is only somewhat competitive with a dedicated damage dealer, and does so much more situationally. The factotum is the best skill user in the game by a reasonable margin, and the other abilities are rather great as well.
OK so factotum or sword sage? The shadow jaunt maneuvers look nice, but so do the skills from factotum.

[eggynack]

OK so factotum or sword sage? The shadow jaunt maneuvers look nice, but so do the skills from factotum.
I would tend towards factotum if you're running RKV on the other half (or in some other manner, if you go with the other way of doing this). Shadow hand is one of the disciplines that RKV pulls from, so you'd gain access to shadow jaunt no matter what.

[Tokiko Mima]

several people have mentioned factotum. what makes them better at doing roguish stuff than rogues?

What makes them better? They get more and better skills, access to spells off the huge Sorcerer/Wizard list, +INT mod to DEX and STR skills/checks (including Initiative!), rudimentary Turn Undead and healing, limited Sneak attack, free Standard actions, and more. Basically, you are missing out on sneak attack progression, and Uncanny Dodge; and those are not nearly as useful as one would think. Rogues are definitely not as good as what you get by being a Factotum instead.

Factotum's in particular have awesome synergy with other classes in gestalt. It works great especially with other classes that use INT, a Warblade//Factotum or Factotum//Wizard is fantastic, for example, but you aren't as limited as you might be with another class: The sky is really the limit. It really is a better class than Rogue in almost every way, plus you get to be smarter than everyone else... who doesn't love that?

[eternal]

I would tend towards factotum if you're running RKV on the other half (or in some other manner, if you go with the other way of doing this). Shadow hand is one of the disciplines that RKV pulls from, so you'd gain access to shadow jaunt no matter what.


So I just did some digging and correct me if my calculations are wrong

if I went factotum all the way to 20 on one side then on the other I went cleric4/ crusader1/ ruby knight vindicator 10/cleric 5 that would give me 9th level spells and almost 9th level maneuvers?

[eggynack]

So I just did some digging and correct me if my calculations are wrong

if I went factotum all the way to 20 on one side then on the other I went cleric4/ crusader1/ ruby knight vindicator 10/cleric 5 that would give me 9th level spells and almost 9th level maneuvers?
Sounds about right, yeah. You'd pick up 8th level maneuvers at level 19, to be specific.

[shadowseve]

OK so factotum or sword sage? The shadow jaunt maneuvers look nice, but so do the skills from factotum.


I would say that you can have your cake and eat it too.

If you really want the other disciplines from swordsage you could go.

factotum15/sword sage5//cleric 4/ crusader 1/ rkv 10/cleric 5

This would give you 9th level divine spells and 9th level maneuvers. Best of both worlds and could certainly pull of the holy assassin vibe.

[eternal]

I would say that you can have your cake and eat it too.

If you really want the other disciplines from swordsage you could go.

factotum15/sword sage5//cleric 4/ crusader 1/ rkv 10/cleric 5

This would give you 9th level divine spells and 9th level maneuvers. Best of both worlds and could certainly pull of the holy assassin vibe.

I like that idea. Now would I lose anything major from factotum by doing that? Which would be better?

[eggynack]

I would say that you can have your cake and eat it too.

If you really want the other disciplines from swordsage you could go.

factotum15/sword sage5//cleric 4/ crusader 1/ rkv 10/cleric 5

This would give you 9th level divine spells and 9th level maneuvers. Best of both worlds and could certainly pull of the holy assassin vibe.
That doesn't look like it grants 9th level maneuvers, as swordsage doesn't apply full IL to crusader maneuver stuff. Instead, you should probably swap swordsage for crusader, which actually would get both to 9th's.

[eternal]

That doesn't look like it grants 9th level maneuvers, as swordsage doesn't apply full IL to crusader maneuver stuff. Instead, you should probably swap swordsage for crusader, which actually would get both to 9th's.

would I lose anything from factotum by doing that. Or is strait factotum better?

[eggynack]

would I lose anything from factotum by doing that. Or is strait factotum better?
Basically, you just lose cunning brilliance, which does... something. It's just an odd chunk of ability, which may grant full casting up to 15th level, and which might allow you to pick up all fighter bonus feats. Weird stuff, and I'd advise giving it a thorough read, and asking your DM what exactly it does. If the ability ends up doing little, or if you collectively decide to stay away from that whole can of worms, then the crusader plan is better.

[eternal]

Basically, you just lose cunning brilliance, which does... something. It's just an odd chunk of ability, which may grant full casting up to 15th level, and which might allow you to pick up all fighter bonus feats. Weird stuff, and I'd advise giving it a thorough read, and asking your DM what exactly it does. If the ability ends up doing little, or if you collectively decide to stay away from that whole can of worms, then the crusader plan is better.


I think I'll follow the "keep it simple stupid" rule as much as possible on my first build I think I'll go with that. Thank's man.

[bekeleven]

That doesn't look like it grants 9th level maneuvers, as swordsage doesn't apply full IL to crusader maneuver stuff. Instead, you should probably swap swordsage for crusader, which actually would get both to 9th's.

OK, even assuming you're allowing RKV in as a dual progression Prestige class, you are no explicitly gestalting it with its source initiator. RAW, there is no way that grants you benefits.

[eggynack]

OK, even assuming you're allowing RKV in as a dual progression Prestige class, you are no explicitly gestalting it with its source initiator. RAW, there is no way that grants you benefits.
I can't really see what stops it from working. The build never progresses IL on both sides at the same time.

[Gwendol]

In order to keep things simpler, avoiding gestalt would be one way. You will be taking on an awful lot at once.