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KoDT69
2007-02-21, 09:41 AM
I have recently started DMing again after about a 3 year break in which I went to college so I could get a real job :smallyuk: I had a 2nd Edition campaign set on the Island of Taladas from the Dragonlance setting which I believe was converted to 3.5 recently? Anyway, I have a pretty wide ranged group.
My best friend is 10 year player with a lot of his own views of the rules. He will argue just about everything that is not in black and white print in a core book. He also uses a lot of fantasy novels and/or TV shows like Stargate to validate a D&D rule or game mechanic. We argue a lot because I say Stargate does not dictate MY world's laws. He is a cleric following Ralishaz from the old Greyhawk campaign setting (which I am allowing) and following the ways of chaos. His father is playing a Dwarven Beast-Rider type fighter. His father argues with him on just about everything, normally taking my side. The other 4 players are all relatively new to D&D or just lack the powergaming urge (which is good, except the 2 experienced try to munchkin everything).
The issue I'm having is that my cleric had decided that not only will he be totally random, but he wants to abuse every rule I don't mention. He rolled his character over from 2nd Edition and at first he asked me to do that for him and assign feats and skills according to his style for him. I did so, but then he keeps adding stuff to his character sheet claiming "in 2nd edition I had this or that weapon/non-weapon proficiency, I should get it as a freebie because I could already do it". This makes me mad. Especially considering that he as DM of campaigns I played in always tried to keep me in check for coming up with a good combo or whatever. I never broke the rules, I just outshined the less expereinced players we had at the time. Now he feels like getting back at me by continually augmenting his sheet then arguing about it.
The issue though, is that he decided to become a master artificer of magic items after a few really excellent random treasure results the group was fairly loaded. This is fine because it can go just as fast as they find it. The problem is that every time they find a quiet village the group takes up residence so he can craft them stuff, also not so huge of a deal since the campaign plot is not tied to a tight timeline. The problem is he ignores requirements of everything. I have to keep reminding him that he is a cleric and can't cast keen edge, haste, fly, or whatever else specifically noted as arcane. Just for arguement's sake I charged him a buttload of gold to hire a 5th level hedge wizard to help out to please the masses and end said conflict.
I really don't know if this is petty on my part or his, but I tried to tell him not to make such an investment before entering a dungeon they are heading for. I know that inside lies a few casters able to permanently destroy their magic items which was planned when they had nothing of great value to lose. The loss of a +2 longsword is not as great as the loss of a +5 flaming thundering longsword by far. I know the cleric's real goal is to achieve munchkin power levels in my campaign because my character did in his last campaign thru sheer luck and cheese. It was not intentional. I player a character that had the best skill in scimitars, then intentionally used slings and polearms to do crappy damage, allowing the new players to feel good about their combat skills. After doing a few awesome battle-turning strategies using my non-proficient weapons, he deceide that campaign was DM vs me and the rest just enjoyed the ride. I took his challenge and the group ended up supporting my challenge. They thought it was so cool he always tried to kill me off first and the rest had little to worry about. That's besides the point. We al like our cheese every now and then.
Any suggestions from other DM's on how to address the craziness that's trying to dominate my reforged campaign? I would like to put this group back into the realm of normal 8th level characters so that I don't need jacked up monsters for a good challenge. I also want to find a way to do it that won't make then cry :smallbiggrin:

EDIT - Wow, sorry for the run-on post!

jjpickar
2007-02-21, 10:10 AM
It looks to me like the cleric has no concept of DM authority. Time to break him:smallamused: . Seriously though, you should just cut him off at the pass. Tell him his arguments in game are disruptive and that you will ignore/punish him if he persists. If he has a problem with the rules then have him talk about after the session.

Constant cheating (yes, that's what he's doing) with his character sheet is a more difficult problem to solve. Personally, I would just take his character sheet away and let him play without ever seeing it. Its tricky but it may teach him a lesson.

I can see you don't want to be mean to him or anything but these harsh measures are the only thing I can suggest to deal with the blatant spitting in the face you are receiving from your "best friend."

Dizlag
2007-02-21, 10:20 AM
What you need to do is go to lunch with the guy and talk about it. Talk about the challenge you took on to make the game personal, him vs you. You won and it made him look bad. It looks like he's just trying to do the same thing again and try to get back to ya. Be the bigger man, apologize for what happened in the past, and buy his lunch. Let him know you want to "start over" of sorts and truly teach these n00bs how to play D&D. Ask him to help you and work together. Roleplaying is all about having fun as a group and creating a memorable experience. Keep that in mind, tell your best friend about it, and game on!

Dizlag

KoDT69
2007-02-21, 10:44 AM
I'm not sure if he's doing it on purpose, or if it's more of a revenge or jealousy thing. His words trying to justify normally come out like "well you have a character with X feat or Y skill, it's only fair that I have that same thing". The point he forgets is that the campaign before went to epic proprtions after 2 solid years and a minimum 16 hours gaming per week all of the characters were very powerful.

oriong
2007-02-21, 12:36 PM
It sounds like he's either just plain cheating, or a jerk, or both (by the way, he better be 15th level if he's making a +5 weapon). Honestly there is no solution other than A) kicking him out or B) telling him 'no' firmly enough that he'll finally get it. If a lot of the issue comes from his 2nd edition version of his character you may want to force him to retire it.


In the case of this future adventure though I would reccomend not throwing the 'perma-destroy' thing at thier magic items. it's rarely a nice thing for a DM to do and even worse when the PCs have invested feats, time, gold and experience into creating their own equipment. Have the wizards use some uber version of dispel magic or something, there's no reason you have to destroy it.

KoDT69
2007-02-21, 12:45 PM
OK I think my own inexperience with 3rd edition rules DM side and the over-trusting of the players caused this whole thing. The main pain in the butt of crafting so much stems from an adventure 2 weeks ago in which the group faced 3 stone giants CR 8 each. What I want to know is how does the CR change with a number of creatures? Should the group of 3 be counted as a single instance of 24? Or is it 3 instances of 8? So like the 6th level average group of 6 players fought them, what XP should they have gotten? I figured it was XP of a CR 8 encounter 3 times, while the players argued it was a single CR 24 which I let them have to stop the arguement. Well this gave them a buttload of XP and a lot more treasure than the whole thing should have been worth. I think I either need to A- go back and call bullsh** on the encounter results and roll back the changes, or B- let them have it and hit them with the item destruction later on. Karma-riffic! :smallyuk:

kamikasei
2007-02-21, 12:56 PM
What I want to know is how does the CR change with a number of creatures? Should the group of 3 be counted as a single instance of 24? Or is it 3 instances of 8? So like the 6th level average group of 6 players fought them, what XP should they have gotten?

The d20srd.org Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm) does the math for you, there. 3 CR8 creatures count as a CR11 encounter, and 6 6th-level characters count as a 7.2 level party. They were definitely feeding you a line with that "CR24" stuff.

oriong
2007-02-21, 12:59 PM
Oh holy hell! CR 24!!!

Ouch.

Ok, the calculations for this could be found on page 49 of the DMG, 3 CR 8 monsters are an Encounter Level 11 challenge, not 24.

So yeah, maaajor mistake. Heck, I'm not sure how you got the experience for them, the chart doesn't even grant amounts for that big a level difference.

Also, if the cleric is 6th level, he's cheating at item creation. he can't make an item with a bonus of more than 1/3rd his caster level.

Going back and calling 'do over' in this case is fine if things haven't gone too far, but don't just fire back at them for it, especially if they werent' actively trying to cheat you. Either undo it or balance it out in the future (less items for the next few adventures.

EDIT: What's important right now is making sure you understand the mechanics of the 3.x game. Currently it seems like there are a lot of problems going on that are, honestly, the result of you not knowing the rules and dealing with arguementative and opinionated players who don't know the rules either.

You need to sit down and skim the books over a few times, especially the DMG. Pay extra attetion to those parts of the book dealing with your PC's abilities, such as the cleric's magic item creation. Once you've finished the training session get back into the game. Don't allow any arguements with your rulings unless the PC can point to a clear and definitive rule in the book, and don't wait for them to flip through all the books looking for it, if they don't know where to find it move on and let them find it on their own time.

Wikkin
2007-02-21, 01:03 PM
Dumb. I expect my players to behave as adults. If they don't I find new players. Luckily, I haven't had to exercise the "if they don't" option in forever.

I'd just be like, "do you want to play or not" Quit with the arguing. Rules arguments kill immersion imo.

KoDT69
2007-02-21, 01:12 PM
It's not a total lack of knowledge on my part, it's just the CR and treasure stuff I never did before. I am going to point this out to my grup definitively that they are out of line. They can deal with my rulings or leave my game table. The irritating thing is that the 2 experienced players switched to 3rd edition right away when it hit the market and I took it for granted they would be able to honestly fill in the gaps so to say. But you're right, I'm too nice to the players more often than not.

EDIT - Oh yah score a big one for the SRD! There IS a limit of 1 enhancement bonus per 3 levels in black and white. They're in for a rude awakening this weekend when I call out a re-do on the whole thing!

Dausuul
2007-02-21, 03:33 PM
(Edited to replace CR with EL where appropriate. Thanks to Thomas for pointing that out.)

My quick-and-dirty guide to CR:

#1. When you double the number of monsters, add 2 to the Encounter Level.
When you multiply the number of monsters by 1.5, add 1 to the EL.

So, taking the CR 8 stone giant as an example:

One giant is EL 8.
Two giants is EL 10 (take the EL of one giant and add 2).
Three giants is EL 11 (take the EL of two giants and add 1).
Four giants is EL 12 (take the EL of two giants and add 2).
Six giants is EL 13 (take the EL of four giants and add 1).
Eight giants is EL 14 (take the EL of four giants and add 2).

Beyond this point, the system starts to break down, but you shouldn't usually have more than eight monsters in a fight anyway.

#2. You can calculate the party's EL the same way.

If you have a typical party of four adventurers, all the same level, then their combined EL is equal to their level + 4. If the party has more or fewer PCs, adjust accordingly. Thus a party of three 8th-level characters is EL 11, while a party of four is EL 12, and a party of six is EL 13.

#3. A "standard" encounter is supposed to have EL 4 less than the total EL of the party. A party can handle 4-5 encounters of this EL before resting.

So, for instance, if you have four 8th-level characters, they can usually handle 4-5 encounters, each consisting of one CR 8 stone giant (or EL equivalent). After that, they'll be starting to run low on spells and hp and need to rest.

#4. A single encounter with an EL equal to the party's is a dire threat which will burn almost all of their resources and has potential for a TPK.

This depends a lot on how smart the players are and how well they optimized their characters. A well-played party of well-designed characters can reliably handle encounters of their EL or even a little higher. However, most parties will struggle with a fight this tough.

#5. The NPCs from the DMG are incredibly wussy for their level due to crap ability scores and poor equipment. Their CR is well below what you'd expect for their level.

I don't even use those NPCs any more; they're just pathetic. Indeed, NPC opponents in general pose a problem because if you give them enough gear to stand up to the party, then the party's net worth doubles after each fight.

I solve this problem in one of two ways. Either I just grab a suitable monster out of the Monster Manual and give its stats and abilities to the NPC ("gee, guys, he's got this really bizarre prestige class going on that gives him an area-effect stun attack and the ability to suck your brain out of your head while grappling"), or I stat out the NPC as a PC of the appropriate level, then devalue his gear and boost his ability scores to compensate. (For example, instead of a +2 weapon, he gets a normal weapon and his Strength goes up by 4.)

Thomas
2007-02-21, 03:57 PM
Er... fine example as such, except that CR always describes a single monster. What Dausuul means is that two CR 8 giants are EL (Encounter Level) 10 and so on.

Read the DMG on encounter levels to get an idea about what that means. Calculating ELs for monster groups is easy using the table; you can substitute EL for CR (so two CR 6 and one CR 8 monster are EL 10, because CR 6 times two is EL 8, and EL/CR 8 times two is EL 10).

Arbitrarity
2007-02-21, 04:24 PM
CR 24... average ECL 6 party.

That's about than 356000 xp each 0.o.

If it weren't for that cap on leveling... I'm epic!

Really, sounds like they're abusing you, as not knowing how to DM perfectly. Get the rules down, and lay down the line.

But don't do what one of my DM's did once. The opposite "Hey, at will doesn't mean a free action!" "I don't care! It will teleport beside you, full attack, and disappear!"

KuReshtin
2007-02-22, 05:51 AM
In the groups I've been involved with, there's a very good phrase that should end all the discussion about rule interpretation:

"DM's ruling! End of discussion."

The DM is God at the table. If they don't like it, they should be free to walk away.

Zincorium
2007-02-22, 06:07 AM
In the groups I've been involved with, there's a very good phrase that should end all the discussion about rule interpretation:

"DM's ruling! End of discussion."

The DM is God at the table. If they don't like it, they should be free to walk away.

Ends all discussion. Also often ends enjoyment. If the DM has no idea what is going on and is calling fiat just so they don't have to come to terms with what is actually the case, then I as a player get very annoyed.

As a DM, the first question I ask is 'Is this more important than playing?'. If it isn't, then I'll ask them, politely, to accept the rule as-is until the next game, and if I'm wrong I'll do my best to make it right.

If the answer is yes, and that's rare, the second question becomes 'Can you point out, right here, right now, where it says it?'. Remembered rules of theirs are in no way superior to remembered rules of mine, and I have a very good memory for game rules. If not, same drill as before, politely ask them to let it wait.

If they can prove it and I don't see a problem with it being that way, we'll change it as soon as feasable or retcon so that it makes sense. I'm a reasonable person, and I prefer to play as close to the rules as possible so that everyone is more or less clear on what's going on. Any house rules I institute I make sure that all players understand them and the ramifications before I add them into the game, anything else is asking for trouble. Things which are truly broken are pretty clearly that way to the person asking, and I have no problem telling them to keep looking.

Dausuul
2007-02-22, 08:33 AM
Ends all discussion. Also often ends enjoyment. If the DM has no idea what is going on and is calling fiat just so they don't have to come to terms with what is actually the case, then I as a player get very annoyed.

As a DM, the first question I ask is 'Is this more important than playing?'. If it isn't, then I'll ask them, politely, to accept the rule as-is until the next game, and if I'm wrong I'll do my best to make it right.

If the answer is yes, and that's rare, the second question becomes 'Can you point out, right here, right now, where it says it?'. Remembered rules of theirs are in no way superior to remembered rules of mine, and I have a very good memory for game rules. If not, same drill as before, politely ask them to let it wait.

If they can prove it and I don't see a problem with it being that way, we'll change it as soon as feasable or retcon so that it makes sense. I'm a reasonable person, and I prefer to play as close to the rules as possible so that everyone is more or less clear on what's going on. Any house rules I institute I make sure that all players understand them and the ramifications before I add them into the game, anything else is asking for trouble. Things which are truly broken are pretty clearly that way to the person asking, and I have no problem telling them to keep looking.

It's definitely important to listen to the players. If a player disagrees with one of my rule calls, I'll always let them make a case for their interpretation. If their interpretation of the rules as written seems like the correct one, I will either change my mind and accept it, or apply a house-rule and allow them to retcon their strategies accordingly (since they didn't know I was going to house-rule things a different way, it's only fair to let them revise their plans to fit my ruling).

Indeed, even if I don't think they've correctly interpreted the RAW, I'll usually let them retcon their plans to fit my ruling, as long as I think it was an honest mistake on their part and not a lame attempt to avoid the consequences of their actions.

At the same time, there's always the player who will, if allowed to do so, continue to argue endlessly even when s/he is clearly wrong. That's when it's necessary to play the "DM has heard and rejected your argument, my ruling is final, time to move on" card.

I try to make my gaming table a benevolent dictatorship, but the DM is still dictator when all is said and done. :)

KoDT69
2007-02-22, 08:49 AM
I always try to keep FUN the motivation at my game table. The whole issue stemmed from my lack of a few functions like EL calculator and the fact of the crafting is another ballgame. I let them do as they pleased giving guidelines even a little better than by the book just because the players receiving ther items are all noobs and know nothing of game strategy or character special abilities. The crafting cleric just took advantage of my leeway there and argued, well since we're not going by the book, why should I be limited? We had it out on that and I came to a final result. We were going to go back and have a do-over but the noobs had their hopes up so I have another solution. We're going to play it out as it stands, group receiving no XP for the next 3 sessions regardless of what they accomplish, and if they can survive a few Bebilith and Rust monsters, they'll keep their ill-gotten gains. Once returning to the city now much inflated in wealth, the local rogue's guild may find them an easy mark, so it all will work out in the end :smallconfused:

cupkeyk
2007-02-22, 09:20 AM
Uhm he can't craft a +5 flaming thundering Longsword because that is epic. You need to be caster 21 to craft that. Magic arms and armors require enhancement*3 caster level to craft an item.

oriong
2007-02-22, 09:29 AM
It's not epic, you only count the higher of enhancement bonus and special ability bonuses.

But honestly KoDT69, does what you just described sound fun? If fun is your guiding principle then why force the players through what sounds like a fairly miserable time?

It seems like it would be a lot easier to simply go back and say 'that didn't happen'. Admit you did something you shouldn't have, you made a mistake, and it's one that needs to be corrected. You'll get some whining but in the end it sounds like a lot more fun all around than going through the Ancient Dungeon of Item Entropy and then go home to the wonderful city of stickyfingers.

Or heck, roll with it. You will need to quash the cleric's item crafting and wind it back to a reasonable level. Hopefully you've realized that allowing that was a bad idea. But accept the PCs are one or two levels higher than you planned (legally you shouldn't have let them go 2 levels in one go), and have plenty of wealth. See what happens. If the extra cash is a concern then have future treasures be sparse (but not empty) and maybe a small adventure related to 'earning' their new wealth.

KoDT69
2007-02-22, 10:09 AM
Well as a DM it's hard to keep it fun when some abuse the system. I'm sure we've all had a problem player at the table for whatever reason. The thing is that I talked to the group as a whole and informed them where it went awry and we all agreed to take on the tredpidation instead of a rewind just to see how it plays out. The future treasure will be more sparse than would have been before until the wealth balance is back in check. I really don't mind them being filthy rich, because it gets spent frivilously by them because they assume more will pour into their pouches tomorrow. Heck, they spent 20,000gp making a set of 20 decorative caravan wagons to sell off their mundane crafted stuff and practice their professions and whatever. I mean they literally broke themselves buying portable workstations to use their profession skills, brewing ales, and storing mass amounts of food. They're not a terrible group. For the most part we're just rolling with the punches, being that the 2 other experienced players truly had the EL thing down wrong as well somehow. I figure it was an honest mistake and we'll fix it as the story unfolds.

ravenkith
2007-02-22, 12:37 PM
Wait...

you know all these items he's creating cost him EXPERIENCE as well as gold, right?

Nobody else can pay it. Just him.

And he can only spend off his experience to the point where he still has enough to keep his current level.

There are several checks in the item creation system, but this is the biggest one.

There is also
- the minimum level for each feat
- the gold cost
- caster level requirements
- spells available
- the masterwork requirement

Make sure you read up on the item creation rules thoroughly before your next session.

Next? Check that fool. Tell him in private that if he doesn't stop cheating and, in general, being an ass, that it will end badly.

Offer to type up his character for him, to take away temptation, and to hang onto the sheet in between games. If he goes this route, you simply make notes on the legitimate changes in his character from session to session, and type it up when you get home, and print out a new copy every time you go to a game.

If it ain't hit points or buffs, and it ain't in black and white on the page, it just doesn't count.

If he doesn't go for the typing, tell him he needs to police himself, and if he doesn't stop, either he'll get booted, or you'll quit dming for him. Because it's no longer fun for you, and he's the one making it that way.

If he continues in his behavior, tell the group that you aren't interested in dming anymore, as you would rather play. Then step aside. Don't even try to blame him, just step down.

Your players probably already know what's going on...and when you decide to run again (in 6 mo.s or so), they'll remember you stopped because of his ****ty behavior, and will most likely be quick to chime in against it the next time he tries it.

KoDT69
2007-02-22, 12:54 PM
Yah I was going to allow him to not receive the experience for it so that his whopping 8th level casting could provide, some of which may be very necessay for the group's survival heading into the dungeon ahead. He is the only caster in the group.

Zincorium
2007-02-22, 05:23 PM
Uhm he can't craft a +5 flaming thundering Longsword because that is epic. You need to be caster 21 to craft that. Magic arms and armors require enhancement*3 caster level to craft an item.

Um, you need to check some of those rules you're quoting again. Heck, check just the word 'epic'. It means items with a total effective bonus of +11 or higher (which this is not) or with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater.

An enhancement bonus is just that, the bonus to hit and to damage. All the other effects are not an enhancement bonus for anything except cost.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-22, 07:00 PM
Meh, abuse of RWT is easy.

Go to a large city, metropolis perhaps. Have Fabricate, and high crafting skills.

MW Fullplate. Sell. Enjoy.

Bloodred
2007-02-22, 07:20 PM
Discipline them, and discipline them hard.

Or, kill all their characters - Make them make new ones - And continue the story.

...

Im not called The GM of Pain for nothing.

KoDT69
2007-02-23, 08:34 AM
Conflict resolved, full details under my other Wish Abuse post. Everything is back to how I intended it for this weeks upcoming game session :smallwink: