Gunslinger build

[Lisselys]

Hello everyone. I'm playing a new character in a fairly evil campaign, and I'd like some advice on my character.
The party is composed of an Archer Ranger, an Inquisitor, a Fighter/Barbarian and a Sorcerer.
I created a mundane because this is my first Pathfinder campaign, and I have a TON of remnants from 3.5 that still linger.
Not to digress tho, I'd like some advice on the build.
Atm i have a Human Gunslinger (Musketeer archetype) character with
Str 9 Dex 21 Con 14 Wis 16 Int 10 Cha 16
(I know i should have swapped con and cha, but i really like having high cha :D )
As for feats, i got
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Deadly Aim
Rapid Reload (Musketeer)
Blind-Fight

I was going to get Ricochet shot deed since i'm now 7th level, but after that i don't really have any idea of what to take. I was wondering if getting some levels into shadow dancer (After 11th gunslinger, which i absolutely need for signature deed) was a good choice.
What's your opinion on the matter?
Any help will be really appreciated :)

[AvatarVecna]

First, I'd like to apologize if I explain concepts you're already familiar with; I'm not sure how much you know of the Pathfinder char op tricks, given your relative unfamiliarity with the slightly different system.

The advantage of the gunslinger is that, within a certain range, they are a full BAB class that targets touch AC. The downside is that, under normal circumstances, they can't get multiple attacks in one round, which is why the deadshot deed exists. The musketeer is the only method of getting multiple attacks in a round with a two-handed firearm, through the combination of Rapid Reload and the Fast Musket deed. Note that, despite it's name, Fast musket applies to all two-handed firearms, while Rapid Reload only applies to muskets. To reload as a free action (which is how you get multiple shots in a round) you need alchemical cartridges and the Rapid reload feat with the firearm in question.

In regards to your character, charisma is a terrible stat for most gunslingers, with the Mysterious Stranger archetype being the exception. That said, it's also good if you need to be the party face. Considering you have a sorcerer and an inquisitor in the party, this isn't too likely. The ranger is probably a decent scout, but you can't have too many perceptive PCs. What Charisma's really useful for (for a Gunslinger) is for Use Magic Device. Invisible/flying/teleporting sniper, anyone?

The advantage of two-handed firearms is their range; the musket has a 40 ft range increment, which is the distance you can attack Touch AC at without spending Grit points. Incidentally, this makes the Deadeye deed a wonderful candidate for the Signature Deed feat, since it extends the free Touch AC range by one range increment.

For my feat/class suggestions, refer to http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

In regards to feats:
-Far Shot is useful if you find yourself firing beyond 40 ft. Most of the new deed feats are less-than useful for anything but flavor.
-Rapid Reload in a different two-handed firearm is nice, if you've got your eye on something but don't want to give up you extra attacks.
-Weapon Focus is always nice. You may as well, since the Rapid Reload you've got pretty much limits you to muskets.
-Improved Precise Shot is variably useful, but when it comes up, it will save you the use of many curse words.
-Iron Will works well for you; you've got a decent wisdom, but a bad will save. Take this to boost it so you can't get mind-controlled by the BNGG (Big Nice Good Guy).
-Improved Critical makes that awesome crit multiplier come up more often.
Critical Focus, but only if you find a Critical feat that works well with your playstyle, as you hardly need a higher attack bonus. My suggestions for good Critical feats are...
-Blinding Critical is wonderful: targeting touch AC is nice; let's make it flat-footed touch AC.
-Crippling Critical keeps your foe from hobbling out of touch AC range too quickly.
-Staggering Critical
-Stunning Critical
-Improved Initiative. Going first is everything, and it's easy for Gunslingers. This makes it easier.
-Hammer the Gap isn't bad, assuming you have the spare feat for it. It doesn't require melee, so that's something, but it's best for dual-wielders, not you.
-Extra Grit: you're already considering Ricochet Shot Deed and Signature deed, which are two of the three worthwhile Grit feats. The third is Extra Grit.
-Quick Draw; it just makes things easier at the start of combat.


Class suggestions:
-Fighter (Trench Fighter) gives you bonus feat, in case you need more, and also the Trench Warfare class ability, which is similar to, and stacks with, the Gunslinger's Gun Training class ability. Double Dex mod as bonus damage on every hit is wonderful.
-Rogue gives you Sneak Attack, rogue talents, and skills, all of which are useful. BAB takes a hit, though, so if you're uncomfortable with your attack bonus getting too low, just remember you're playing a gunslinger.
-Alchemist (Vivisectionist) gives up the Int-based bombs for sneak attack. While you don't get the rogue's talents or skills, you do get mutagens and more skill with alchemy, which any gunslinger can appreciate.
-Assassin is decent if you can qualify, as well as thematically appropriate for a sniper character.
-Grand Marshall can work well, assuming it works for your flavor. Fancy playing a corrupt cop?
-Horizon Walker is occasionally useful, especially if your game takes place primarily is a small set of settings.
-Justiciar is only decent if you can convince your DM to allow sure shot to apply to firearms. Even them, it's got the same flavor issues as the Grand Marshall, as well as an actual alignment requirement.
-Student of War has nice flavor and decent mechanical benefits.

This last class suggestion is the most overpowered by far, but as it's third-party material, it's easy to ban. That said, if allowable, and character optimization is the goal, nothing is better for combing with Gunslinger than Gunslinger. No, not the base class you're already taking; the 3rd party prestige class. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-prestige-classes/paizo-fans-united/gunslinger)

It gives bonus feats, including Rapid Reload for all firearms. It lets you use firearms while next to enemies without provoking AoOs. It gives you the Marksmen ability, which makes makes each range increment count as one less than it is for all purposes. Including the Deadeye deed. This is how you break the Gunslinger class.

Let's take a Human Gunslinger (Musket Master) 11/Gunslinger (PrC) 9.

-Their Dex becomes 36 (18 base+2 human+5 level+5 book+6 item).
-This character gets 19 feats (the Rapid Reload from Musket Master is worse than the Rapid Reload from Gunslinger {PrC}, so I didn't count it). Let's assume they took Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Musket), Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (Musket), Critical Focus, Blinding Critical, Crippling Critical, Stunning Critical, Staggering Critical, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot, Extra Grit, and four instances of Signature Deed, all going to the Deadeye deed.
-This makes the Deadeye deed cost 0 grit to use within 5 range increments, otherwise known as the maximum range of firearms. If you can attack it, you roll against Touch AC.
-Assume this character purchased a +1 Musket with the Distance, Lucky, Speed, and Greater Designating enchantments.

This character has a range increment of 80 ft, and gets 7 range increments, all of which count as two increments closer for the purposes of maximum range and range penalties. Penalties are -0 with 240 ft, -1 within 320 ft, -2 within 400 ft, -3 within 480 ft, -4 within 560 ft, and -5 within 640 ft. If the attack target is within 30 ft, the attack is at +3 attack and damage.

Attack bonuses, assuming all feats are utilized, are +27/+27/+27/+22/+17/+12. You always target touch AC, unless you're targeting flat-footed touch AC.

Base damage is 1d12+26

Critical threats occur on a 19 or 20 and get a +4 to the confirmation roll;if confirmed, they do 4d12+104, and either blind, stun, or cripple your target, your choice which.

The weapon always gives you an extra attack at your highest bonus, it has a spare grit point for you to use, ignores mischance, and gives your allies a +4 to hit and a +6 to damage the target in melee.


Fun fact: a while back, I made a hypothetical gestalt Fighter (Trench Fighter) 20//Gunslinger 8/Alchemist 2/Gunslinger (PrC) 10 that dual wields double-barreled pistols using a vestigial arm to reload. By taking advantage of the cheese that is double-barreled firearms, he can kill any monster in a single turn, including Lucifer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/devils-unique/devil-lucifer-prince-of-darkness-tohc), assuming the character got the drop on him. Gestalt makes that possible, sure, but even going non-gestalt, you can shoot your damage into the stratosphere using such weapons.

No sane DM would allow you to combine these two gunslingers. That said, it's worth taking if yours does.

Hope I've been helpful.

[Snowbluff]

I HEAVILY contest that, good sir.

The true master of Firearms is the SynthesistX/MysteriousStranger1. No one can withstand my myriad attacks and gunpouncing.

[AvatarVecna]

I HEAVILY contest that, good sir.

The true master of Firearms is the SynthesistX/MysteriousStranger1. No one can withstand my myriad attacks and gunpouncing.

If the only way to out-cheese a build is to make a synthesist summoner, I think it's fine. The superiority of casters is beyond doubt; I was merely noticing the OP's preference for a mundane character, and was providing what information I could to make the best non-caster gunslinger.

[grarrrg]

If the only way to out-cheese a build is to make a synthesist summoner, I think it's fine. The superiority of casters is beyond doubt; I was merely noticing the OP's preference for a mundane character, and was providing what information I could to make the best non-caster gunslinger.

Not to be nitpicky (ok, TOTALLY to be nitpicky), but a functional Gundolon build uses pretty much NO SPELLS.
Yes, the Summoner is a "caster", but a Synthesist>Gundolon doesn't care about actually casting things (unless you are building a Gundolon/Spellslinger/Gene Starwind build...then there's some "caster" but not the kind you might be thinking of...).

[Lisselys]

Ok, let's start off with a WOW.
Really, WOW. Your whole post should go into the Gunslinger Handbook and prizes and kudos should be given to you.

Now, onto the topic, let's take a step back and see everything in order.
First, I'd like to apologize if I explain concepts you're already familiar with; I'm not sure how much you know of the Pathfinder char op tricks, given your relative unfamiliarity with the slightly different system.

The advantage of the gunslinger is that, within a certain range, they are a full BAB class that targets touch AC. The downside is that, under normal circumstances, they can't get multiple attacks in one round, which is why the deadshot deed exists. The musketeer is the only method of getting multiple attacks in a round with a two-handed firearm, through the combination of Rapid Reload and the Fast Musket deed. Note that, despite it's name, Fast musket applies to all two-handed firearms, while Rapid Reload only applies to muskets. To reload as a free action (which is how you get multiple shots in a round) you need alchemical cartridges and the Rapid reload feat with the firearm in question.

In regards to your character, charisma is a terrible stat for most gunslingers, with the Mysterious Stranger archetype being the exception. That said, it's also good if you need to be the party face. Considering you have a sorcerer and an inquisitor in the party, this isn't too likely. The ranger is probably a decent scout, but you can't have too many perceptive PCs. What Charisma's really useful for (for a Gunslinger) is for Use Magic Device. Invisible/flying/teleporting sniper, anyone?

The advantage of two-handed firearms is their range; the musket has a 40 ft range increment, which is the distance you can attack Touch AC at without spending Grit points. Incidentally, this makes the Deadeye deed a wonderful candidate for the Signature Deed feat, since it extends the free Touch AC range by one range increment.]
While I thank you very much for this summary, I did already consider all those things. I preferred a +2 in charisma for no other reason than to be a little more skilled in social skills, and even that is just a flavour thing, nothing else.
As for the reload part, I already got that covered too thanks to my personal alchemical cartridge (paper) stack, that I always have on myself.
Last but not least, while the Deadeye is indeed really useful, I'd prefer not to Signature it, since it's still a move action to increase my range.
In regards to feats:
-Far Shot is useful if you find yourself firing beyond 40 ft. Most of the new deed feats are less-than useful for anything but flavor.
-Rapid Reload in a different two-handed firearm is nice, if you've got your eye on something but don't want to give up you extra attacks.
-Weapon Focus is always nice. You may as well, since the Rapid Reload you've got pretty much limits you to muskets.
-Improved Precise Shot is variably useful, but when it comes up, it will save you the use of many curse words.
-Iron Will works well for you; you've got a decent wisdom, but a bad will save. Take this to boost it so you can't get mind-controlled by the BNGG (Big Nice Good Guy).
-Improved Critical makes that awesome crit multiplier come up more often.
Critical Focus, but only if you find a Critical feat that works well with your playstyle, as you hardly need a higher attack bonus. My suggestions for good Critical feats are...
-Blinding Critical is wonderful: targeting touch AC is nice; let's make it flat-footed touch AC.
-Crippling Critical keeps your foe from hobbling out of touch AC range too quickly.
-Staggering Critical
-Stunning Critical
-Improved Initiative. Going first is everything, and it's easy for Gunslingers. This makes it easier.
-Hammer the Gap isn't bad, assuming you have the spare feat for it. It doesn't require melee, so that's something, but it's best for dual-wielders, not you.
-Extra Grit: you're already considering Ricochet Shot Deed and Signature deed, which are two of the three worthwhile Grit feats. The third is Extra Grit.
-Quick Draw; it just makes things easier at the start of combat.]

Now onto the feat part:
All your suggestions are REALLY good. Since we have an archer the DM suggested us to take Target of Opportunity, a teamwork feat which works wonders in our team, and that we will snatch at lvl 8-9 for sure (The ranger had to get deadly aim first).
As far as feats goes tho, I was worried about classes/Prestige, and their prerequisites.

Assassin/Shadowdancer were my choices, (Also, I can't seem to find Justicar or Student of War anywhere) but I don't really know what's the strenght of both.
Assassin is kinda redundant. Yeah i get a nice bunch of spells, but I'd better just go Spellslinger (Wizard archetype) and call it a day.
Shadowdancer, on the other hand, gives me a whole new set of abilities, which fits perfectly within the whole "Gotta find a nice place and shoot you in the face".

As for the rogue, if I decide to go that route, is there some way to improve the ranged sneak attack?
And, also, how do i actually deny Dex to Ac as a ranged? I'd have to go snapshot/improved snapshot?
Also, since there is a type of bullet capable of wielding alchemicals, where can I find a Vivisectionist handbook? :P

Thanks for the time you are dedicating to me, it's really helpful

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, nice to know my research into this, both months ago and today, is appreciated by those who benefit from it. So thanks. Now, onto your response.

I've been looking through the gunslinger rules for a while now, and I've never seen any reference to Deadeye requiring a move action to activate. I've seen deeds that require standard actions and full actions to activate, but Deadeye doesn't seem to require an action, only grit spent. There's no minimum action cost for spending grit either, so I see no reason why using Deadeye uses any action other than free.

As it is, Deadeye is a terrible deed. The nature of firearms makes attacks within your first range increment attack touch AC; the Deadeye deed allows you to extend this natural touch attack by one range increment for one attack at the cost of 1 grit. It's a terribly ineffective way to spend grit even at 1st level, since before then, it's either this, pistol whip, or un-jam your gun. Not exactly competitive. If it's made a signature deed, it becomes viable, especially since it doesn't cost an action to use: since it doesn't cost an action, and costs 1 less grit than it otherwise would, it extends your touch AC range on all attacks.

But there are other good deeds make signature deeds. For instance, if one of the other characters had sneak attack, you could make distracting attack a signature deed and use it for free. Rogues love gunslingers for that deed. Unfortunately, due to the deed's wording, it won't work for a gunslinger/rogue.
A better use of signature deed is targeting. I can tell you from personal experience that the targeting deed is great: my first time playing a gunslinger (previous Gen Con) was a 7th level, terribly un-optimized, dual-pistol build. Our last fight was against a flying demon and some minions. I was the only one in the party with ranged attacks, and I couldn't get through their DR. So I shot their wing. They are now adjacent to anyone below them. This wouldn't be a problem (since they could fly away on their turn), except there was a well-optimized paladin in the party. Needless to say, the demon's DR wasn't a problem for him. The action cost is killer on targeting, but it's useful enough to be worth making a signature deed, unless your campaign features a lot of creatures targeting would be useless against.

The big problem with Signature Deed is that, in order to qualify for it, you need to have Gunslinger 11. Only one of the deeds gained at 11th is worth anything, and even then, only if it's made a signature deed. There's a bleed effect (bleed effects are notoriously terrible), there's a deed to keep your broken gun from exploding on a misfire (you either should've fixed it when it broke in the first place or had a magic gun that can't break), and there's a deed that let's you load a single shot as a swift action for 1 grit. Without Signature deed, this is overwhelmingly bad. Fortunately, you both qualify for and can choose Signature deed at the level you gain this deed. The only other good thing about this deed is that it is a stated by RAW method of getting multiple gun attacks in a round, meaning full attacking with an flintlock pistol was considered acceptable by the designers at some point, and that other methods of achieving that full attack are allowed.

I noticed the potential synergy between you and the ranger, but as I'm unsure what path they're taking with their character, I didn't want to give you advice that would require their (possibly unwilling) agreement.

The Justiciar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/justiciar) is rather odd, but interesting.

The Student of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war) is a sort-of ranger/intelligent fighter PrC that focuses on using monster knowledge checks to gain bonuses in combat. It's got some heavy prereqs, but the abilities are decent and and don't specify melee or ranged, so it can work well if you're built for it.

Regarding the rogue: the Sniper Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/sniper) might be what you're looking for. It's also got some suggested rogue talents that make sniping easier. Other methods of sniping with sneak attack is to use magic, UMD, or just magic items to pull it off.
Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/invisibility) makes it easier, and as a 4th level spell, I'm sure the sorcerer could get it soon enough. Teleporting/Shadow jumping is another method, although it's less viable for getting as many full attacks as possible. One of my favorites, flavor-wise at least, are the eyes of charming. It doesn't take an action to use, and given the circumstances would most likely make them flat-footed against your attacks. Of course, the best way to flavor this for a CE character is to hire a torchbearer or some other 1st level commoner to follow you around. Whenever you feel an urge to be violent, you can shoot them, then charm them...assuming they didn't die from getting sneak attack'd point blank with a gun. It's not an effective way, but it's certainly fun.

Other than that, specializing in some sort of combat maneuver is a good way to get sneak attack; feint, in my experience is a trap, while dirty trick does the same job, but better. Not much better, but still. You could get some cooperation from the barbarian/fighter: they can use their own feats to give you opportunities, but that's not a good use of their feats. Other spell options include grease (or just a handful of marbles), but this doesn't help against flying foes. Hiding is difficult; you have to pump up your Stealth skill to get past the huge penalty to hiding before/during/after attacking. Hide in Plain Sight makes this easier, and Shadowdancer's one of the easier ways to get it.

Also, if you're considering rogue, look into the Sniper Goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles).

It looks like Shadowdancer will work well for your character. Happy evil-doing!

[Lisselys]

Shadowdancer with a sparkle of rogue seems the way then. What I'm wondering, though, is if Signature deed is really necessary.
It is indeed strong, but since the majority of my party is fighting under 30 feet, i don't know how much getting Deadeye or something like Targeting/Bleeding is really necessary. Bleeding is nice for the ability damage, but in the end it's just another way to damage someone.
By going Gunslinger 7/Rogue x/Shadowdancer Y (Assassin is really only useful if going melee) i would get a nice chunk of the rogue goodies, since i'd need at least talent, which means i'd get at least 3 rogue level.
OR, 3 levels of alchemical Vivisectionist, which is basically Rogue 2.0 without trapfinding, which i don't need since the ranger already has that one covered.

And the more i read vivisectionist, the more i'm attracted to it (Oh god why didn't i play a caster, i love casters XD), but the problem is that i have 10 int, thus i won't be able to get access to the extracts.

So at the moment my idea of a build is kinda messy.

Ditching 3 feats for Shadowdancer is really useful only if i get some way to get sneak attack, to really use his abilities.

So, as to recap:
Shadowdancer is only really useful if i get some ways to sneak attack.
Alchemist requires me to spend at least 1 point in Int, to at least use the lvl 1 extracts.
Rogue would pump my damage, but not really my utility.

As of your experience, what can benefit most my party?
An alchemist, even if low level, or a Shadowdancer?
And, also, do i go on to take Gunslinger 11 or i just go into one of these classes?

[stack]

Grab an item to boost INT. Won't take much since extracts only go to 6th.

[AvatarVecna]

Without a decent Int, alchemist is going to take some work to be useful.
-The bomb class ability is usable a umber of time a day equal to class level+Int mod; you also add your Int mod to the damage. You should probably find something to replace it.
-Extracts, like wizard spells, require a minimum Int to "cast" them. If you can get a better Int, they can be great.
-Mutagens are the only significant class feature that isn't Int dependent, and are dead useful besides: alchemical attribute bonuses are rare, and this gives you a +4 to a physical attribute. The downside? It reduces a mental attribute (the pairs are Str/Int, Dex/Wis, and Con/Cha)
-Most of the Alchemist's poison abilities are unnecessary, especially for you: you've got a decent Con with 2 classes that have a good Fort (assuming you take Alchemist); why are you worried about being poisoned. Take an archetype that replaces these.

Discoveries make Alchemist's wonderful. Here's some nice ones:
-Infusion lets others drink your extracts.
-Extend Potion is useful, but doesn't work on extracts.
-Enhance Potion is great, since it doesn't forbid extracts like Extend Potion does.
-Wings is great if you like flying, although the time limit is a little bit of a let-down.

The Vivisectionist Archetype is wonderful, especially in that it can combine with a number of other archetypes, such as the Beastmorph.

Honestly, if you were looking at casters to supplement your build, I'd actually suggest some others:

-Wizard (Spellslinger) would be the obvious, but you Int is an even bigger downside there.
-With the way your character's set up, you could make decent Cleric or Oracle. I'm not too familiar with the cleric class, but the first Pathfinder character I ever played was an Oracle.

The Oracle is interesting, in that your power doesn't come directly from a specific deity, but more from a very broad domain, kind of like the "my deity is a cause" cleric, but cooler. It's the sorcerer to the cleric's wizard, complete with spontaneous Cha-based casting. For your character, I recommend either the Battle or Lore mysteries; both have excellent options. Furthermore, your alignment doesn't need to be anywhere close to your deity's, or even the alignment most commonly associated with your mystery. The oracle's curse gives you bonuses based on level: your effective oracle level for determining your curse bonuses is oracle level+half other class levels. This means an Oracle 1/X 8 counts as being Oracle 5 for determining the curse's abilities. The good will save doesn't hurt either.

-You could also go Bard fairly well.

You've got enough Cha to make Perform, spellcasting, and face skills viable. It gives you a good Will save. The bardic performances can combine well with your existing abilities, and will benefit the party as a whole. Of the PCs in your party, the only one who might not fully appreciate the attack and damage bonus from inspire courage is the sorcerer (and they would too, if they're a gish). The spellcasting is hardly game-breaking, but it's still worthwhile. Skills are where the bard shines: versatile performance allows them to substitute their Perform bonus (not rank, bonus) for another skill. Put a single rank in every knowledge skill; you now have a bonus of 4+half bard level in every knowledge skill even if you never touch them again.

[Slipperychicken]

What level are you starting at?

If you're starting after 5th, I'd suggest Musket Master 5/Trench FighterX. If you're starting earlier, I'd say Musket Master3/Trench FighterX/MusketMaster2

Mandatory Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim.

Awesome feats: Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes. You now control a 20ft radius of murder.

Bonus Fun Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Prereq for Snake Style), Snake Style (AC = sense motive 1/round), Deflect Arrows. Snag a trait to get Sense Motive as a class skill, and now you're dodging 1-2 attacks per round.

Your ammo: Paper cartridges.

Your gun: +1 Greater Reliable Double-Barreled Musket. Take a -4 to hit, double your attacks. Also, you don't misfire.

[AvatarVecna]

What level are you starting at?

If you're starting after 5th, I'd suggest Musket Master 5/Trench FighterX. If you're starting earlier, I'd say Musket Master3/Trench FighterX/MusketMaster2

Mandatory Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim.

Awesome feats: Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes. You now control a 20ft radius of murder.

Bonus Fun Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (Prereq for Snake Style), Snake Style (AC = sense motive 1/round), Deflect Arrows. Snag a trait to get Sense Motive as a class skill, and now you're dodging 1-2 attacks per round.

Your ammo: Paper cartridges.

Your gun: +1 Greater Reliable Double-Barreled Musket. Take a -4 to hit, double your attacks. Also, you don't misfire.

According to the OP, they are just reaching 7th level. They already have the mandatory feats, and appear to be considering the suggested feats. Alchemical cartridges already in use have the same function for these purposes. The exact rules regarding double-barreled weapons are unclear; regardless, their cheesy nature has been mentioned as well.
Magic Item effects haven't been discussed much, if only because suggesting items requires dependable, predictable wealth by level, whether set by the base rules or houseruled by the DM.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, what are you doing with Blind Fight? If you need to ignore cover and concealment, I'd just wait and get Improved Precise Shot.

Since you already have 7 levels in Gunslinger (or 6, if you're still deciding what to do for 7th level), I'd want to go into Trench Fighter and pick up Weapon Focus (Musket) -> Snap Shot. That'll let you help out and flank in melee. You can even pull a bit of tanking duty if necessary, since enemies will think you're a vulnerable squishy ranged character who provokes AoOs from shooting, and thus may prioritize you over your sorcerer. Then you can score Improved Precise Shot and Combat Reflexes by 9th level, which will make you very helpful in melee.

Riding a mount is a very good idea for any ranged character with ranks in Ride. It will vastly increase your mobility, letting you perform ranged full-attacks while moving up to your mount's speed without penalty (and before you try to correct me, look up the mounted combat rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Mounted-Combat)). You'll be able to pull off your Ride checks with no problem. No feats are necessary: Just auto-succeed the DC 5 check to "guide with knees", and make sure the mount doesn't move more than its speed. Even if your GM rules that you can't ride it in the dungeon (you can, you just need to use the squeezing rules for the mount, which still makes you far more mobile than 5ft-stepping each round) or if it dies, it only costs like 110gp to replace a combat-trained horse, so you can just leave it outside the dungeon and not worry.


The exact rules regarding double-barreled weapons are unclear; regardless, their cheesy nature has been mentioned as well.
Magic Item effects haven't been discussed much, if only because suggesting items requires dependable, predictable wealth by level, whether set by the base rules or houseruled by the DM.

Double-barreled weapons are pretty clear. You can full-attack that way, because they can both be shot as the same attack, and since the description doesn't call out any particular action to shoot both at once (it would be different if it said "the attack action"), that means it can be done for any attack you make, including AoOs.


This musket has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack.

Magic items don't need consistent WBL, they just need money. In this case, ~34,800gp. If the party is getting at least WBL, though, he could afford it by level 10 (at the latest) if he started saving now. Even better if he's allowed to upgrade his existing gun to be double-barreled and have extra magic.

[grarrrg]

Your gun: +1 Greater Reliable Double-Barreled Musket. Take a -4 to hit, double your attacks. Also, you don't misfire.

The 'double shots' must both target the same target, so it more accurately doubles your damage, if you want.


An item that may be useful is the Beneficial Bandolier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bandolier-beneficial), fairly cheap, and lets you spend a Swift Action to reload 1-barrel. Even with Free Action Reloads this can be handy, as you can Swift-Reload a cheaper Pellet/Black Powder round instead of a more expensive Cartridge.
On a related note, always load your gun with Pellets/Powder between fights to save money.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, what are you doing with Blind Fight? If you need to ignore cover and concealment, I'd just wait and get Improved Precise Shot.

Since you already have 7 levels in Gunslinger (or 6, if you're still deciding what to do for 7th level), I'd want to go into Trench Fighter and pick up Weapon Focus (Musket) -> Snap Shot. That'll let you help out and flank in melee. You can even pull a bit of tanking duty if necessary, since enemies will think you're a vulnerable squishy ranged character who provokes AoOs from shooting, and thus may prioritize you over your sorcerer. Then you can score Improved Precise Shot and Combat Reflexes by 9th level, which will make you very helpful in melee.

Riding a mount is a very good idea for any ranged character with ranks in Ride. It will vastly increase your mobility, letting you perform ranged full-attacks while moving up to your mount's speed without penalty (and before you try to correct me, look up the mounted combat rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Mounted-Combat)). You'll be able to pull off your Ride checks with no problem. No feats are necessary: Just auto-succeed the DC 5 check to "guide with knees", and make sure the mount doesn't move more than its speed. Even if your GM rules that you can't ride it in the dungeon (you can, you just need to use the squeezing rules for the mount, which still makes you far more mobile than 5ft-stepping each round) or if it dies, it only costs like 110gp to replace a combat-trained horse, so you can just leave it outside the dungeon and not worry.

Double-barreled weapons are pretty clear. You can full-attack that way, because they can both be shot as the same attack, and since the description doesn't call out any particular action to shoot both at once (it would be different if it said "the attack action"), that means it can be done for any attack you make, including AoOs.

Magic items don't need consistent WBL, they just need money. In this case, ~34,800gp. If the party is getting at least WBL, though, he could afford it by level 10 (at the latest) if he started saving now. Even better if he's allowed to upgrade his existing gun to be double-barreled and have extra magic.

I have no idea why the OP took Blind-Sight, but it can't be retrained easily, so there's no point crying over spilled milk.

Mounted combat is wonderful for gunslingers, but it has the usual pit traps of mounted combat--which, as you pointed out, are only a major problem if your investment in the combat style involves feats, which this character wouldn't need to take. Still, bullet's are expensive (compared to other projectile ranged weapons) and gunslingers tend to want to buy as many as necessary, just in case, so at lower levels, when wealth is lower, it might be best to skip on the horse; ironic, considering this is the only level range where the horse's combat skill is worthwhile.

My issue with double-barreled weapons is a nitpick at best: the language of the double-barreled musket seems to imply that you get the same number of attacks at -4 attack and double damage, while the language of the double-barreled pistol seems to imply double the number of attacks in a round. This potential difference in interpretation is due to what appears to be the use of the words 'attack' and 'action' interchangeably within both weapon descriptions. What interpretation is accurate in this case is irrelevant; either way, the double-barreled weapons are clearly superior. The problem in employing them is that the Rapid Reload feat doesn't necessarily apply to them due to a similar potential grammatical dispute. Incidentally, double-barreled weapons can also severely break the Deadshot deed, with some questionable RAI, but that's something else entirely.

I wasn't saying that magic items need WBL, I'm saying characters do if they want to assume a certain level of magic items during character creation. If the DM uses the normal WBL or a house-ruled, internally consistent WBL, then a player can predict with relative accuracy how much wealth their character will have at a particular level, and therefore how much power that wealth can bring them.

[ghanjrho]

I recall reading on the Paizo forums a dev comment to the effect that multiple effects that add a particular ability mod to anything don't stack, with Gunslinger/Trench Fighter double DEX to damage specifically being called out as not working. Essentially, they're bonii of the same type, and this don't stack.

[AvatarVecna]

I recall reading on the Paizo forums a dev comment to the effect that multiple effects that add a particular ability mod to anything don't stack, with Gunslinger/Trench Fighter double DEX to damage specifically being called out as not working. Essentially, they're bonii of the same type, and this don't stack.

The general rule is that untyped bonuses of different sources stack, which is why most people think this should stack.

Of course, the general rule is trumped by the specific rule RAW (no example here).

The specific rule RAW is trumped by widely accepted RAI (Pistolero has two different class features giving Dex to damage, which sets a precedent; either a Pistolero gets 2xDex to damage, or one of their two class features giving them Dex to damage is useless).

Widely accepted RAI is trumped by errata and FAQ (although not necessarily dev comments that imply things, but let's count it for our purposes).

Finally, the ultimate trump card in any game is DM judgement: if your DM thinks a ruling is b.s., they're more than welcome to houserule that, in their game, a player dedicated enough to build a Gunslinger (Pistolero) 5/Fighter (Trench Fighter) 3. Of course, the DM will probably point out that their 8th level character has a lower-than-normal Will save, compared to characters that already had bad will saves, and that the gunslinger getting mind-controlled is a big problem for a party with a character like that. There's very few ways to make a truly broken character in Pathfinder, because everybody's got weaknesses.

[Lisselys]

I will reply to all of you tonight, when I'll be back from work.
As for now just consider this:
1) I'm getting lvl 7, and no retrain rule is available
2) I'd prefer to avoid the cheese that doublebarreled brings to the table. My damage is already quite high
3) i was looking for utility/outofcombat things to do beside "i shoot"
4) Blind fight is a pre req for ricochet shot deed

[grarrrg]

Pistolero has two different class features giving Dex to damage, which sets a precedent; either a Pistolero gets 2xDex to damage, or one of their two class features giving them Dex to damage is useless

There is no precedent.
When Pistolero was first published it was widely accepted that it was supposed to lose Gun Training (compare the wording of 'Pistol Training' to the 'Musket Training' that a Musket Master gets, identical).
And when they (finally) released Errata they removed Gun Training from Pistoleros. So there is no precedent, because it doesn't exist.

[Lisselys]

Just for the info: I'm discussing with my dm since I think he doesn't want me to play an alchemist. Once I'll have answers I'll reply to you all ^^

[Slipperychicken]

Another question to overwhelm the OP with: What do your character's finances look like now?

[Lisselys]

At the moment I have around 7-8 k gold to spend. I also have a +1 musket, a +1 armor and a buckler. I also bought a pair of darkvision goggles, for 3k. Yeah that kinda hurt my wbl but I needed them

[AvatarVecna]

There is no precedent.
When Pistolero was first published it was widely accepted that it was supposed to lose Gun Training (compare the wording of 'Pistol Training' to the 'Musket Training' that a Musket Master gets, identical).
And when they (finally) released Errata they removed Gun Training from Pistoleros. So there is no precedent, because it doesn't exist.

Ah. I wasn't aware of that; thanks for informing me.

[AvatarVecna]

If utility is what you're looking for, I'd suggest Rogue or Bard, both for the skills, and for the other tricks available. Rogue Tricks don't have to focus on Sneak Attack, and Bardic Performance/skill stuff is great for rounding out characters.