Rouge Build....without being an actual rouge

[PapaEmeritusII]

Relatively new to 3.5 and D&D as a whole (unless you count Baldur's Gate series) but I think I have done pretty well with my research on my newest build. Created my first character a few months ago (level 7 Sorcerer...which has turned out pretty awesome IMO) and jumped into an ongoing campaign. So I am still pretty noob when it comes to some of the finer points and I want to be sure to set myself on the right path for my newest character.

I am not planning on taking any levels in straight rouge, unless there is a strong argument for it. I have read in countless places the strongest classes are usually not prestige classes but a pure main class, like my sorcerer for instance. This does not seem to be the case for a rouge, which out of the box seems fine, but is kinda a bore after a while (going off the experience of the horribly played rouge in my other campaign). Maybe its just that he does not understand his character (which is true...) but either way I am liking the idea of creating a mutt of various classes.

Whenever I read a build post on this forum or others, people are always asking the poster to describe their campaign and what they are hoping to get out of it. Taking a step back...I actually played a similar character on a vacation with the people I will be playing with. I ended up creating a Rogue6/Ghost Face Killer2 and loved the character. First of all, how can you go wrong with a name like ghost face killer for your class? Also, ghost step plus invis pots which made me the star of the party (only one that really did any damage to the dragon we fought). I had weapon focus, weapon finesse, improved init, power attack (preq for GFK) which was a lot of fun.

ANYWAYS....now we are starting over at level 1 (taking us through the underdark if that matters) with everyone staying pretty much what they were. So we will have my character plus 2 monks, a bard (DM in other campaign...will be strong) and either a cleric or wizard (dude has not decided yet). Everyone but my character is planning on being some form of neutral and I (of course) will be Lawfull Evil. As you can tell, we are going to have to be stealthy because we are so squishy. I am hoping to abuse ghost step as a Ninja to sneak/sudden attack as often and for as much damage as possible.

Here is what I am thinking so far...
Base Stats (i think they called it a 30 base system...no rolls)...and now that I am doing the math, I think I my not have this fully allocated, but the character sheet is at home. Regardless, DEX will be maxed, then some con, then some str....

Str 12
Con 14
Dex 18
Wis 10
Int 10.
CHA 10


Ninja2/Thug(Fighter) +SA variant4 (allows me to forgo bonus feats for +1d6 Sneak Attack)/Assassin1/???


I want to go Ninja right away so I get ghost step as soon as possible. Then I wanted to take the fighter variant to help get my base attack bonus up while getting +3d6 sneak attack throughout the 4 levels. The assassin class for death attacks and poison. After that I can go the 1 lvl in psi-rogue, spelltheif, etc route to get more +1d6 for sneak/sudden attack, but open to other suggestions.

Also, it should be said that I have read a lot of discussion over how ghost step is applied and I need to talk to the DM to see how he interprets it. Some say once used you stay invisible for a round regardless of action, while others say it works like the invisibility spell and you become viable after attacking.
For feats I am planning on taking Expanded Ki pool right off the bat so I can ghost step 4 times at lvl 2. Next will be improved initiative and likely weapon finesse or some ranged feat. Which brings me to my main question!!!!

I am trying to weigh the pros and cons of melee vs ranged. From what I understand you can use sneak/sudden attack ranged within 30 ft. Since I am going to be using a lot of ghost steps, either option seems viable, but I think in the long run melee is more versatile whereas ranged is more safe. I am leaning towards melee, but could easily be pushed into ranged if it made sense. Obviously will still use them both, but wondering for primary play style.

Anyways, enough rambling....questions:

1. Ranged or Melee?
2. Thinking Dragonwrought Kobold (pretty sure DM is ok with it). Second best or better options?
3. After #1, which weapon would you recommend. If I take daggers, invisible dagger class is interesting but since I am taking a couple levels in fighter, can I then use a Long Bow (or composite long bow if there is such a thing) or heavy crossbow, instead of a short bow? Being a spell caster in my other campaign, I am not that versed in weapon speed, attacks per round and all that, so completely in the dark for weapons.

That's it for my bible of a post. Thanks in advance for any input and for taking the time to read my rantings.

[Gildedragon]

Rogue, not rouge. the latter is makeup.

Now ghost step is kinda cool but I would recommend swordsage (for shadow-hand focus: be it always concealment or teleportation) as your main line of focus, drow rogue 1 (for poison use) aim for teff shadow lord.

If you can get LA bought off Dark Creature is a template you will like, makes you extra sneaky, as it gives you hide in plain sight

Your int is low so I would recommend human or some sort of gnome/halfling
Problem with kobold is the con mod will hurt. And in the under dark you might not always be able to fly.

Your con is decent. Go melee; port in, slice (feycraft shortswords) port out (or hide)

[Kazudo]

Rouge build without being rouge.

So you mean more of a mineral powder?

Snagging the Darkrunner feat (if possible, AFB) is practically a feat tax for sneaky folk. A lot of underdark creatures have blindsense and tremorsense and scent, and can easily foil a well placed hide check.

[Demidos]

If you're still looking for rogue, "but more exciting", one might link you to the factotum (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0)handbook. The class can also be found online (and uses poison!). That is the simpler option. If you feel ready to read a book to upgrade your abilities, you can read Tome of Battle, usually considered to make non-caster combat classes much stronger, though i'd be careful in that you might overshadow your monk allies.

Anyway, on to your direct questions.

1. Depends. Personally I think spiked chains are fun, even without tripping madness, just for the increased range. But that might just be me.

2. For a roguish build....Consider Whisper Gnomes. Like halflings, but very very sneaky. If not, strongheart halflings get the human bonus feat as well as a +1 to all saves.

3. If you go with a bow, Splitting (+3 property) has your back --> it doubles all your attacks. If you want some daggers as backup, or something to use while your returning daggers are returning, there are the gloves of endless javelins. There is a pretty good chance your dm will allow you to refluff the javelins to daggers.

[PapaEmeritusII]

Rogue, not rouge. the latter is makeup.


First of all, thanks for all the responses...and the spelling error was actually intentional in order to draw attention to the post...(never mind, I critically failed my bluff check).

Making some dinner then exploring these options. Also, was off on the stats like I thought but unfortunately the opposite direction (too many).

Its a 30 point buy and below is what I had. I could always move this around if needed.



STR 12
DEX 18
CON 12
WIS 10
CHA 10

[Svata]

What's your INT?

[Gildedragon]

Here is how I would a lot pb 30 with LA 1 buyoff

Base:
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 10

Dark Creature Template + Beguiler (ideal small creature: permanent true sight, bonus to int and dex) or Human (a good overall choice) or lesser d'hini or some other gnome or halfling.

Flaws: if you got darkvision: light blindness

Drow Rogue 1 (maximise skill points in tumble, UMD, bluff, hide, move silently, craft (poison or alchemy) and other stuff...)
Factotum 1 (get iai focus)
Swordsage as far as you can

With this you can have a fairly shadow pouncy build, go in, stab, go out if you go into Tef Shadow lord. But you will need these feats:
Blind-Fight , Dodge , Mobility , Spring Attack
and you will probably benefit of: Shadow Blade (your weapons are feycraft)

[PapaEmeritusII]

Ok update time. After a looong night of reading and tweaking, below is what I am thinking.

Dark Whisper Gnome (Buy off LA at 6000xp)

DM says ghost step stays active for full round regardless of attacks, which seems to be the consensus online anyways.

Base Stats (30 point Buy)

STR 8 (-2 whisper gnome)
DEX 16 (+2 whisper gnome)
CON 12 (+2 whisper gnome)
INT 14
WIS 16
CHA 8 (-2 whisper gnome)

I know strength and charisma are horrible, but I wont need them for much.

Ninja2/Thug+Sneak Attack Variant6/Swordsage2/Assasian4/Spell Theif1/ Then 1 level in classes that give +1d6 sneak attack

Mainly worried about through 10th lvl, not sure how long this campaign will go but only once a month for 3 to 4 hours. So will take some time to build up from 1.

At 2nd level (which is where I need to stay for the buy out) I will have the ability to ghost step 4 times a day. 1 KI power for ability plus 3 from my wisdom.

Thinking ranged (shortbow) with 1st feat Point Blank Shot and 2nd Rapid Shot. Otherwise for Melee would be weapon finesse light weapons and two weapon fighting. Improved initiative at lvl 5. Either way I am effectively getting two attacks (potential for sneak attacks/sudden strike). That being said, melee is still at worst a wash (+0, +0) with invisibility (normally -2, -2 due to feat and light weapons) and ranged is at a +2 from invisibility, +1 from pointblank shot and uses my dex mod anyways. I understand I would take a -2 to damage rolls ranged damage, but I am just worried about the sneak attack damage.

Take the thug variant to get my BAB up as fast as possible to get a 2nd (third either melee or ranged) attack (3 sneak attacks/sudden strikes). By this build I should get it lvl 7 and at that point would deal +1d6 sudden strike and +2d6 sneak attack....3 times for +9d6 total assuming I used ghost step (which why not). Lvl 8 get another +1d6 sneak attack so +12d6...not bad if I have this right. Thug variant allows you to forgo a bonus fighter feat for sneak attack damage (but you do not get a first level bonus feat). So six levels in this gives +3d6 damage, a decent amount of hit points (no armor from ninja) and massive bonus to BAB. Only downside that keeps me thinking I may put a couple levels in actual rogue and delay the 2nd (3rd) attack by one level is the skills are lacking (and evasion is always nice to have). So may end up putting 2-3 lvls in actual rouge which would only delay getting to +6 BAB by one level.

For swordsage taking two levels to get Assassins Stance (+2d6 sneak attack). Would take child of shadow stance lvl 1 and assassins stance lvl 2 (initiator level of 5 at that point) Plus a lot of cool maneuvers. So at this point (level 10), 3 attacks per round, combined +6d6 (assuming ghost step) total of 18d6. I assume I will have some enhancement bonus to wis/dex at this point (probably +4). Also two increases in dex so dex 24/wis20 So I should be able to ghost step 6 rounds, each doing 18d6 (assuming I don't miss). On that topic BAB is +8/+3 at that point, +1 from point blank shot, +7 from dex, +X from weapon bonus (lets say +2 for the sake of argument), attacking for 18/13...I think should hit most of the time.

Also, base saves are somewhat balanced, 3/3/3 at lvl 5, 5/8/5 at lvl 10. Also +2 will saves if I have unused Ki powers.

Open to criticism and thanks again for all the responses. Couple questions:

1. The Swordsage AC bonus at lvl 2 RAW says applies when you are wearing light armor. I assume I may be able to talk my DM in to allowing that with no armor and if so may move the sword sage up right after ninja. Or does anything less than light armor already apply?
2. Splitting, looks good, but can't find a clear cut answer as to whether or not it allows for multiple sneak attack damage. It gives me an extra attack dice roll for each attack, so I assume it would work but not sure Any idea on this? My regular damage output is going to be non-existent (1d3-2) so unless this also applies to SA or SS I may forgo this. If it does, all I have to say is at level 7 doing 18d6 damage seems good.
3. So far thinking Improved Initiative for 5th lvl feat but if the volley shot feats work with SA and SS its not as important. Yes catching people flat footed is all well and good, but it doesn't matter when I am invisible.
4. If I end up taking the thug levels as planned, does that mean my character, who is small, can use a long bow? Pretty sure I remember seeing a str requirement to composite long bows but long bow would be funny and may actually do some regular damage.

****EDIT just realized you take a -2, -2 using rapid shot so in that regard melee and ranged are equal. Still get the +1 from point blank shot though.

[Gildedragon]

I would, personally recommend against ninja (the wis to AC of the swordsage does not stack with the ninja's) and swordsage does best in melee (shadow blade only applies to melee with shadowhand weapons)

A couple feycraft daggers would boost you a fair bit.

Ranger 2 would not be a bad way to get TWF

Gearwise:
Shadowsilk armor is handy if you want to hide

Better than asassin's stance is child of shadow
it gives you concealment, and the dark template gives you hide in plain sight. So you wreath yourself in shadows and vanish.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dark Creature is a +1 LA, so at your 3rd character level (ECL 4) you can buy it off for 3,000 xp.

Also, Rouges are overpowered (http://darklegacycomics.com/41).

[weckar]

One thing you are not making clear is the TYPE of rogue you want to play. They can be anywhere from assassins to diplomats to guys who are just really handy with a toolbelt...

[dysprosium]

This idea is what Zinc Saucier is all about. Though we have not had a Rogue Round (yet).

[Rubik]

You could dye yourself pink. It's kind of reddish, but it isn't really red.

[Kazudo]

This idea is what Zinc Saucier is all about. Though we have not had a Rogue Round (yet).

Too easy. A better one would be to do Ninja...assuming you haven't yet.

[dysprosium]

Sadly Ninja was tackled back in Round 10--the last round before moving to Roman numerals.

[Feint's End]

Something you should keep in mind. Sneak attack fighter gets the sneak attack progression of a rogue for the bonusfeats. Therefor you get sneak attack at 1st 3rd 5th etc etc. Going 6 level fighter does nothing for you.

[Bloodgruve]

A few things to keep in mind.

Mobility and ability to Sneak Attack.

First, you have to get to your target, you can't do damage if you cant reach it. Low levels are not a problem but once you surpass lvl 7 or so things start to evade you a lot easier. Cover, Concealment, Invisibility, Etheral, Flight, Battlefield Control, etc.. Make sure you have the ability to get to where you need to go.

Sneak Attack will not always activate. You are a fairly melee heavy party so this is helpful but getting that percision damage off is key. The CA Ninjas invisibility, when activated, lasts the whole round which means it lasts through attacks. You're limited per day but that's helpful. A big hide skill and Hide in Plain Sight is helpful also which the aforementioned Dark Creature Template can really help with.

Stat wise I'd suggest paying more attention to Strength if you're going melee, adds to hit and damage. 15Dex should be good for TWF. Int and Con are important also.

Skills, make sure at least one person has max'd Search, Spot and Listen. Preferably the trapfinder.

Factotum is a really fun skillmonkey/roguey class.

Beguiler is a great thiefy caster, low damage but super utility. With Heighten Spell and a Reserve feat of your choosing you can get some decent repeatable damage. I love this class. If your last guy goes Cleric this could be a great addition to the group if you work with your Bard to design your characters so they don't overlap.

Swordsage is very strong also, I'd suggest it over Rogue.

Xd6 Sneak Attack looks great on paper but it's not as reliable as you would think. Big constant damage is usually achieved other ways.

Lastly, careful with the Lawful Evil part, if you play it right you could end up alienating the group.

Blood~

[PapaEmeritusII]

Worked on some responses for the last hour and just lost everything.....FML. Copied everything to clipboard before I hit preview (knew I had to log back in). Logged back in and post seemed fine (copied again to be sure)....huge mistake. I saw that it still had all the quotes but not my responses. Arrrgh! So here is the short version...

I want to do as much damage as possible, as often as possible (not asking too much right?). Skills and all that are fun but willing to forgo some utility for more damage output.

I am now starting to see that while this looks good on paper, it may be a dud. So ghost step 4-6ish rounds...do a lot of sneak attack damage (hopefully), but then its face-palm time. Hopefully things will be dead by then but can't count on that all the time. It's a one trick pony, if I can't sneak attack I'm screwed.

In my lost response, I spent time defending my choices but as it went on I started to see some serious problems come up. So maybe it was a good thing it was all lost, and either way this exercise (the post) has been very beneficial.

If I were to blow this build up (not there yet...) I would probably go with the swordsage. Seems to be extremely versatile but I have only scratched the surface based on only taking 2 lvls in it. Also it would be a lot of fun outclassing the two monks in the group in the martial arts (especially the one played by a guy with a Napoleon complex). Also would solve the need for evil...but I really like playing evil characters :).

[Bloodgruve]

I've been running a Clawlock lately. lvl6 with 1d3+4d6+1d6SA+4 on each of two claw attacks per round. It's like a sneak attack without the limitations. May want to look at it.

I set my guy up as the party scout/trap finder with Rogue1/Warlock5 with invocations to support it. Feats like Able Learner to keep working up Spot/Search/Listen, Eldritch Claws, Improved Toughness for more HP and Improved Natural Attack to increase claw damage. Invocations are Spider Walk cuz our wizard likes casting Web and it's good low level mobility, Baleful Utterance to destroy locks and a lot of other things instead of picking them and All Seeing Eyes to bolster Spot and Search.

If you're Lawful Evil you can roll a Monk1/WarlockX and get Sun School as a feat which allows an attack after a Flee the Scene (Dimension Door). This gives you great mobility to get to your target.

The class has some very fun and sorta unique tricks. Also you can take 10 on UMD at 4th level so after you get +10 to the skill you can use any wand without error and scrolls of increasing level as you gain more ranks. At warlock 12 you can start making your own magic items including Scrolls if you take the feat. I love the idea of having any spell available and castable for a cost. Really great if you have a Wizard in your group so you can give him any spell he wants.

GL
Blood~

[ArqArturo]

Beguiler is a great thiefy caster, low damage but super utility. With Heighten Spell and a Reserve feat of your choosing you can get some decent repeatable damage. I love this class. If your last guy goes Cleric this could be a great addition to the group if you work with your Bard to design your characters so they don't overlap.

Arcane Strike at an appropriate level can give you a magical "Sneak Attack".

[PapaEmeritusII]

One thing I left out that is very important. I have to be able to find traps! In our other campaign the guy who plays the rogue never searches for traps. It has become a huge joke and I can not be a hypocrite here. I even tried to get his wife to slap him if he didn't "check for traps" upon entering rooms in their home (its growing on her). Also the fact that there is a lot of "trap" music played with these guys....

So here is what I am now thinking. Just need to slip this past my DM....

Venerable Dark Dragonwrought (Wyrm of War) Kobold from Thesk (totally part of the 1%)

Rogue 1 (yes I am making the title of this thread a sham)/Swordwage19 or Swordsage 13/Telflammar shadowlord 6

Bonus feats every four levels plus I hear unarmed swordsages are very nice.



Other thought is the really cheese route I see all over the place with a twist.

Venerable Dark Dragonwrought (Loredrake) Kobold from Thesk (totally part of the 1%)

Sorcerer1/ Swordwage19 or Swordsage 13/Telflammar shadowlord 6

At level 3 take a feat in arcane discipline choosing the kobold domain for trap finding ability. Also the extra sorcerer levels I believe would work well with the shadowlord. Still unarmed.


Both of these as listed have a 1 LA (Dark) as far as I can tell. A little confused on when a Kobold gets feats. Obviously will need to tweak the abilities and such but thinking would make for a much more versatile and deadlier build.