StP Erudite Just Got Better

[Rubik]

Trait Removal is a 5th level spell from Serpent Kingdoms that suppresses an Extraordinary Ability from a creature for one hour per level. The Unique Powers Per Day ability is unmarked as to what kind of ability it is (Sp, Ps, Ex, Su, or Na). Since unmarked abilities are Ex by default, that means Trait Removal can suppress it.

Note that the UPPD restriction is not mentioned anywhere outside of its own text, and it's the only limiter to how many powers an erudite can manifest per day. So for one hour per level, a StP erudite can manifest every power and spell he knows without restriction -- beyond his manifester level and how many power points he has available, anyway, and the latter can be recharged easily enough.

[Nettlekid]

This would also be a good trick for the Wilder's Psychic Enervation. What other classes have separate class features that purposely nerf them? If unlabeled features apply, the Tainted Scholar's whole "must keep going in this class" thing is valid.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Trait Removal is a 5th level spell from Serpent Kingdoms that suppresses an Extraordinary Ability from a creature for one hour per level. The Unique Powers Per Day ability is unmarked as to what kind of ability it is (Sp, Ps, Ex, Su, or Na). Since unmarked abilities are Ex by default, that means Trait Removal can suppress it.

Note that the UPPD restriction is not mentioned anywhere outside of its own text, and it's the only limiter to how many powers an erudite can manifest per day. So for one hour per level, a StP erudite can manifest every power and spell he knows without restriction -- beyond his manifester level and how many power points he has available, anyway, and the latter can be recharged easily enough.
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110911014341/icarly/images/e/e0/LOL-Monty_Python_Applause.gif

[Rubik]

This would also be a good trick for the Wilder's Psychic Enervation. What other classes have separate class features that purposely nerf them? If unlabeled features apply, the Tainted Scholar's whole "must keep going in this class" thing is valid.The war hulk's No Time to Think ability qualifies. As does the barbarian's (and totemist's) illiteracy.

[Gemini476]

It's got a casting time of one hour, costs 9 PP, and is only available at 11th level onwards, but that's not bad at all.

Also, at 11th level he has 6 unique powers/level/day. He's already ahead of a level 20 Focused Specialist Wizard who decided to take a different spell in each spell slot, as well as ahead of the Psion who only gets 4 spells/level known.
At level 11, Unique Powers/Day is no longer an issue. It isn't even an issue at level 9, when you could get it Psychic Chirurgery'd into your spells known. You have 5UP/lvl/day at that point.

[Rubik]

The mountebank's Mark of Damnation and Aspect of the Damned could both be suppressed by this spell.


It's got a casting time of one hour, costs 9 PP, and is only available at 11th level onwards, but that's not bad at all.Linked Power and the Soul Crystal power both reduce that to a mere 1-2 rounds. And if you're Overchanneling or using the Metapower (Linked Power + Synchronicity) combo, or you're using Soul Crystals, you can do that as soon as you're capable of manifesting it.


Also, at 11th level he has 6 unique powers/level/day. He's already ahead of a level 20 Focused Specialist Wizard who decided to take a different spell in each spell slot, as well as ahead of the Psion who only gets 4 spells/level known.
At level 11, Unique Powers/Day is no longer an issue. It isn't even an issue at level 9, when you could get it Psychic Chirurgery'd into your spells known. You have 5UP/lvl/day at that point.Nabbing effectively ∞ UPPD is pretty darned good, even at mid to high levels.

[Aharon]

Nice find :smallwink:

[Rubik]

Also, at 11th level he has 6 unique powers/level/day. He's already ahead of a level 20 Focused Specialist Wizard who decided to take a different spell in each spell slot, as well as ahead of the Psion who only gets 4 spells/level known.Wait a minute. This was just brought to my attention. How are you computing this, exactly?

A level 20 wizard can cast dozens upon dozens of spells every day, and psions get 36 powers known at level 20.

And why are you comparing a level 11 erudite to a level 20 wizard?

[Gavinfoxx]

The UPPD question is kinda ambiguous even WITHOUT this...



The actual limit of the number of 'locked' powers really depends on which version of the Erudite you are reading...

-The Complete Psionic gives the Erudite unique powers per day equal to 1+1/2 class level (rounded down) per level, This means a level 20 Erudite can manifest 99 unique powers a day, 11 per power level (!!!)

-A common claim of RAI is that the Erudite should have 1+1/2 class level unique powers per day, no matter the level.

-The Erudite from Dragon Magazine #319 version has this, where the first level you can manifest a new level power you can manifest one a day, the next two level you can manifest three a day, the next three you can manifest 3 a day and every level after that you can manifest 4 a day. (Exceptions being 8th level powers where you skip one level of manifesting only 2 a day and 9th level powers where every level from 17th to 20th increase the number you can manifest daily by one.)

-A common houserule has it as:
1 per level 1-10, 1/2 level 11-20. leaves 15 at 20, and adds an extra +1 at 1. So, some example NET unique powers per day, which changes depending on how many class levels associated with Erudite you have. Thus, as a class level 1 erudite, you have 2 unique powers per day. As a level 5, you have 6, as a level 10, you have 11, as a level 15 you have 13, as a level 20 you have 16. This thread discusses the problem some:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131058

[WinWin]

Trait Removal...Code of Conduct?

You can use Ability Rip to permenantly lose a supernatural ability.

[cosmonuts]

This trick is on the level of getting Ex spellcasting through shapechange, except much more stupidly powerful.

[Rubik]

This trick is on the level of getting Ex spellcasting through shapechange, except much more stupidly powerful.Well, three levels in illithid savant can add the StP erudite's spell-and-power learning mechanic on any other type of manifester, leading to the same basic result. I like using that trick on something with good class features, like the society mind.

[cosmonuts]

Speaking of illithid savants, are there any good, reliable methods for an illithid savant who has not consumed any brains yet to find a willing spellcaster 20 brain donor?

[Rubik]

Speaking of illithid savants, are there any good, reliable methods for an illithid savant who has not consumed any brains yet to find a willing spellcaster 20 brain donor?Requisition a casting of Ice Assassin of a 20th level caster using Eschew Materials, or buy a scroll thereof and make it yourself.

[cosmonuts]

Requisition a casting of Ice Assassin of a 20th level caster using Eschew Materials, or buy a scroll thereof and make it yourself.

Oh, I almost forgot that one spell which makes the other broken spells look benign by comparison.

Don't know why I'd bother, at that point. Are divine ranks considered special qualities? Just IA a greater deity...

[Rubik]

Oh, I almost forgot that one spell which makes the other broken spells look benign by comparison.

Don't know why I'd bother, at that point. Are divine ranks considered special qualities? Just IA a greater deity...The astral brain of a caster affected by Astral Projection would also work, though I'm sure it'd be quite creepy to willingly subject yourself to be the psychic dinner of an illithid.

[Curmudgeon]

Trait Removal is a 5th level spell from Serpent Kingdoms that suppresses an Extraordinary Ability from a creature for one hour per level. The Unique Powers Per Day ability is unmarked as to what kind of ability it is (Sp, Ps, Ex, Su, or Na). Since unmarked abilities are Ex by default, that means Trait Removal can suppress it.
The rule books disagree with you. From page 180 of Player's Handbook:
Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. From page 118 of Rule Compendium:
Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. They’re rarely identified as natural—that’s assumed—and they rarely take a distinct action to use.

[cosmonuts]

The rule books disagree with you. From page 180 of Player's Handbook: From page 118 of Rule Compendium:

I remember the counterargument being something along the lines of.


This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature.

With many things, like spellcasting, obviously not a part of a creature's physical nature. But I'm partial to the ruling


Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

being explicit about what's marked as what kind of ability (and what's not is natural). After all, maybe in the D&D world a being's physical nature can include spellcasting.

That said, I also recall there being creatures with spellcasting explicit as an Ex ability.

[Phelix-Mu]

My personal feeling is that they borked the ability categories and the language surrounding them (and even the intent behind each category) so badly that anything that is hinging on the distinction is not subject TO debates and in the realm of "ask your DM."

Even the MM stat blocks are not well though out. Some things are Special Attacks. Well, are all special attacks abilities? And was there any firm logic behind the distinction between Special Attacks and Special Qualities? No, in my mind, it's all a big mess. I've read enough of the "spellcasting via shapechange" debates to know that the argument is long and pretty much fruitless.

Also, some stuff in the PHB has tags, and some doesn't. What's with that? The only thing worse than a system for categorizing abilities is half a system for categorizing abilities, with some random stuff left out.

[cosmonuts]

My personal feeling is that they borked the ability categories and the language surrounding them (and even the intent behind each category) so badly that anything that is hinging on the distinction is not subject TO debates and in the realm of "ask your DM."

Even the MM stat blocks are not well though out. Some things are Special Attacks. Well, are all special attacks abilities? And was there any firm logic behind the distinction between Special Attacks and Special Qualities? No, in my mind, it's all a big mess. I've read enough of the "spellcasting via shapechange" debates to know that the argument is long and pretty much fruitless.

Also, some stuff in the PHB has tags, and some doesn't. What's with that? The only thing worse than a system for categorizing abilities is half a system for categorizing abilities, with some random stuff left out.

Agreed. For good TO, only conservative rulings should be permitted.

In this case, spellcasting is a "don't even think about it" ability.

[Rubik]

The rule books disagree with you. From page 180 of Player's Handbook:So they do. I'm actually halfway glad, since this really is a broken thing.

Though I can't for the life of me figure out how this would be a natural ability.

Now, is there any way to remove class-based natural abilities?

[Nettlekid]

It still does work for the War Hulk's No Time to Think and the Wilder's Psychic Enervation though. That latter one could prove to be very powerful.

[CyberThread]

In what ways could this ability be abused, in less abusable forms? What EX ability makes subpar things, if removed would make them playable and decent?

[Svata]

Maybe the inability of certain classes to freely multiclass?

[Chaosvii7]

In what ways could this ability be abused, in less abusable forms? What EX ability makes subpar things, if removed would make them playable and decent?

This is where crossing over with the Worst ability in the game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?59-D-amp-D-3e-3-5e-d20) thread would benefit everybody.

[Getsugaru]

It's got a casting time of one hour, costs 9 PP, and is only available at 11th level onwards, but that's not bad at all.

Also, at 11th level he has 6 unique powers/level/day. He's already ahead of a level 20 Focused Specialist Wizard who decided to take a different spell in each spell slot, as well as ahead of the Psion who only gets 4 spells/level known.
At level 11, Unique Powers/Day is no longer an issue. It isn't even an issue at level 9, when you could get it Psychic Chirurgery'd into your spells known. You have 5UP/lvl/day at that point.

Currently playing an STP Erudite in a game run by Dice, who decided not only that Erudites are not the Wizards of Psions and gave me the UPD variant, but also decided that Metaconcert has the same limitations when manifested on me, meaning it has its own unique powers per day limit (bringing my maximum to 14 - barely half the manifesting potential of the party Psion). So I doubt he'd let me use this trick either (am now actively rewriting the character as a Psion to propose a switch-out/retrain).

[Owl Prowler]

Currently playing an STP Erudite in a game run by Dice, who decided not only that Erudites are not the Wizards of Psions and gave me the UPD variant, but also decided that Metaconcert has the same limitations when manifested on me, meaning it has its own unique powers per day limit (bringing my maximum to 14 - barely half the manifesting potential of the party Psion). So I doubt he'd let me use this trick either (am now actively rewriting the character as a Psion to propose a switch-out/retrain).

What do you find playing this Erudite is like? I've heard arguments that the UPD variant actually cripples the Erudite in terms of effectiveness, and that tricks like Arcane Fusion are cheese and therefore don't say anything about the power of the class.

Not saying I agree (especially with the last part- Arcane Fusion is far behind divine metamagic in terms of inherent ability- at least you don't have to buy a thousand nightsticks with Arcane Fusion) but it would be interesting to see how often that limitation came up in actual play.

[Getsugaru]

What do you find playing this Erudite is like? I've heard arguments that the UPD variant actually cripples the Erudite in terms of effectiveness, and that tricks like Arcane Fusion are cheese and therefore don't say anything about the power of the class.

Not saying I agree (especially with the last part- Arcane Fusion is far behind divine metamagic in terms of inherent ability- at least you don't have to buy a thousand nightsticks with Arcane Fusion) but it would be interesting to see how often that limitation came up in actual play.

I built this character as a chrono-legionnaire. Six of my 7 unique powers per day are eaten up by this. That means that, if it weren't for the Erudite Concerto, I'd be useless outside of combat (which we are only just starting to truly experience). Even with the Concerto, however, I am limited to about half the potential of the party Psion, who has 11 less powers known (I bought a couple bonus powers) and can use all of them. The real kicker is that he's completely unwilling to allow me any more powers per day (I have requested twice now, once before and once during play, that he allow me more upd, even if it was just the Dragon Magazine version. He refuses on the grounds that " not [I]supposed to be able to Batman [my] way through things," which according to several playground members is exactly what an STP Erudite is supposed to do). This is why I am doing a rewrite and am going to ask he let me switch over. It doen't matter if I know over 30 powers if I can't even use a third of that at level 12 (I'm terrified of how useless I'll be at 20th if I keep the path of STP). Dice compared the erudite to a Sorcerer in his pm, which is what the Psion is like, not the Erudite.

[Gavinfoxx]

I built this character as a chrono-legionnaire. Six of my 7 unique powers per day are eaten up by this. That means that, if it weren't for the Erudite Concerto, I'd be useless outside of combat (which we are only just starting to truly experience). Even with the Concerto, however, I am limited to about half the potential of the party Psion, who has 11 less powers known (I bought a couple bonus powers) and can use all of them. The real kicker is that he's completely unwilling to allow me any more powers per day (I have requested twice now, once before and once during play, that he allow me more upd, even if it was just the Dragon Magazine version. He refuses on the grounds that " not [I]supposed to be able to Batman [my] way through things," which according to several playground members is exactly what an STP Erudite is supposed to do). This is why I am doing a rewrite and am going to ask he let me switch over. It doen't matter if I know over 30 powers if I can't even use a third of that at level 12 (I'm terrified of how useless I'll be at 20th if I keep the path of STP). Dice compared the erudite to a Sorcerer in his pm, which is what the Psion is like, not the Erudite.

Have you pointed him to the various versions of StP Erudites?

The actual limit of the number of 'locked' powers really depends on which version of the Erudite you are reading...

-The Complete Psionic gives the Erudite unique powers per day equal to 1+1/2 class level (rounded down) per level, This means a level 20 Erudite can manifest 99 unique powers a day, 11 per power level (!!!)

-A common claim of RAI is that the Erudite should have 1+1/2 class level unique powers per day, no matter the level.

-The Erudite from Dragon Magazine #319 version has this, where the first level you can manifest a new level power you can manifest one a day, the next two level you can manifest three a day, the next three you can manifest 3 a day and every level after that you can manifest 4 a day. (Exceptions being 8th level powers where you skip one level of manifesting only 2 a day and 9th level powers where every level from 17th to 20th increase the number you can manifest daily by one.)

-A common houserule has it as:
1 per level 1-10, 1/2 level 11-20. leaves 15 at 20, and adds an extra +1 at 1. So, some example NET unique powers per day, which changes depending on how many class levels associated with Erudite you have. Thus, as a class level 1 erudite, you have 2 unique powers per day. As a level 5, you have 6, as a level 10, you have 11, as a level 15 you have 13, as a level 20 you have 16. This thread discusses the problem some:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131058

[137beth]

Wow. Serpent Kingdoms really needed some more editors.
By the way, where does it say that unmarked abilities default to (Ex)? I thought they defaulted to "natural" abilities (which are functionally the same as (Ex) for most purposes, but this may be one of the differences)?

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

[Getsugaru]

Have you pointed him to the various versions of StP Erudites?

The actual limit of the number of 'locked' powers really depends on which version of the Erudite you are reading...

-The Complete Psionic gives the Erudite unique powers per day equal to 1+1/2 class level (rounded down) per level, This means a level 20 Erudite can manifest 99 unique powers a day, 11 per power level (!!!)

-A common claim of RAI is that the Erudite should have 1+1/2 class level unique powers per day, no matter the level.

-The Erudite from Dragon Magazine #319 version has this, where the first level you can manifest a new level power you can manifest one a day, the next two level you can manifest three a day, the next three you can manifest 3 a day and every level after that you can manifest 4 a day. (Exceptions being 8th level powers where you skip one level of manifesting only 2 a day and 9th level powers where every level from 17th to 20th increase the number you can manifest daily by one.)

-A common houserule has it as:
1 per level 1-10, 1/2 level 11-20. leaves 15 at 20, and adds an extra +1 at 1. So, some example NET unique powers per day, which changes depending on how many class levels associated with Erudite you have. Thus, as a class level 1 erudite, you have 2 unique powers per day. As a level 5, you have 6, as a level 10, you have 11, as a level 15 you have 13, as a level 20 you have 16. This thread discusses the problem some:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131058
He's using type 2, which a friend of mine recently pointed out makes no sense under any circumstance for one simple reason: text trumps table.

Unique Powers per Day: An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day. An erudite does not choose a primary discipline.Red and underline by me.

Also, RAI doesn't work as a valid excuse anymore as far as some of us are concerned; in my case because I've seen too many people use it as "Rules As I Interpret". The problem being that there's really no way to know how the rules are intended since we can't speak to the writers, and even if we could they may or may not even remember what they intended when they wrote the rules anymore.


Wow. Serpent Kingdoms really needed some more editors.
By the way, where does it say that unmarked abilities default to (Ex)? I thought they defaulted to "natural" abilities (which are functionally the same as (Ex) for most purposes, but this may be one of the differences)?

Serpent Kingdoms: Known for three things. Poor rule checking. Sarrukhs. And lots of broken abilities (I'm looking at you, Venomfire spell and Manyfang Enchantment).

Also, I have found a flaw with this plan. What if you are a construct, ooze, or undead? Then the spell fails to function.

[Immabozo]

Trait Removal is a 5th level spell from Serpent Kingdoms that suppresses an Extraordinary Ability from a creature for one hour per level. The Unique Powers Per Day ability is unmarked as to what kind of ability it is (Sp, Ps, Ex, Su, or Na). Since unmarked abilities are Ex by default, that means Trait Removal can suppress it.

Note that the UPPD restriction is not mentioned anywhere outside of its own text, and it's the only limiter to how many powers an erudite can manifest per day. So for one hour per level, a StP erudite can manifest every power and spell he knows without restriction -- beyond his manifester level and how many power points he has available, anyway, and the latter can be recharged easily enough.


This would also be a good trick for the Wilder's Psychic Enervation. What other classes have separate class features that purposely nerf them? If unlabeled features apply, the Tainted Scholar's whole "must keep going in this class" thing is valid.


The war hulk's No Time to Think ability qualifies. As does the barbarian's (and totemist's) illiteracy.

I dont think this works. Although my argument is not based in RAW, so will likely not be given much weight on these boards, but I dont think this works. These, by definition, are not abilities. They are DISabilities. Traits? Yes. They are certainly not abilities. They are not extraordinary because they are the definition of ordinary for those followers of that way of life.

And why do you need to improve the StP Erudite?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I dont think this works. Although my argument is not based in RAW, so will likely not be given much weight on these boards, but I dont think this works. These, by definition, are not abilities. They are DISabilities. Traits? Yes. They are certainly not abilities. They are not extraordinary because they are the definition of ordinary for those followers of that way of life.

To be fair, the Warhulk's No Time to Think (Ex) is most certainly a disability by all standards, but as far as game terms are concerned a valid option for the spell as others have mentioned. It's a little silly, but the game does have abilities made to make a character or creature worse than others - be that thing (EX), (Su), or unlisted.


And why do you need to improve the StP Erudite?

It's that we need to but rather a means of using the rules to wiggle out of whatever straitjacket your class features put on you. Also, it's generally more catchy to make a good thing better than a bad thing less so even if both have their merits, such as the above No Time to Think. I also find it amusing that the spell can substitute for the skill points necessary for a barbarian to read.

[CyberThread]

IT isn't need, it is pride.



This system has been milked raw and abused like a cheap yard sale. If you can still find something after all this time, that is impressive, especially to something folks have already garnished over trying to abuse.

This isn't pun pun level impressive, this is more like finding wheres waldo.

[Immabozo]

To be fair, the Warhulk's No Time to Think (Ex) is most certainly a disability by all standards, but as far as game terms are concerned a valid option for the spell as others have mentioned. It's a little silly, but the game does have abilities made to make a character or creature worse than others - be that thing (EX), (Su), or unlisted.

Like I said, not ground in RAW. Just a thought.