Dual Wield Pistols DM question

[CyberWyld]

Pistols...are they -2 when DW them or -4? I keep seeing things that support both online. Can someone hit me with the actual reference to shut this argument down? I need something to point to and go "This is why you cannot". I also have read that TWF doesn't affect ranged weapons. :/ Only melee.

Obviously the player is arguing that they should get a -2 instead of the -4 and I have plenty of reference to support either argument. I was hoping you all could help me clear this up. Thank you!

[tzar1990]

By RAW, they'd be at -4/-4, since TWF does apply, but they're both listed as one-handed weapons rather than light weapons.

[CyberWyld]

Does anyone else have anymore to add here? So because the Ultimate Combat book never lists any firearm as "light" then they are either 1h or 2h correct?

[torrasque666]

Technically, ranged weapons are never classified as "Light Weapons" or "One-Handed" or "Two-Handed" but as their own classification of "Ranged". Because other than Crossbows the only other repeated use (ie: not throwing) weapons are bows, a crossbow include an entry in its description of the penalty for one-handed firing in addition to how it would be used as in two-weapon combat(heavy xbow: two one-handeds. light/hand xbow: two light). Firearms on the other hand, do not include such a line in their description and thus entirely up to DM Fiat. Personally? I'd say as one-handeds because recoil and kick is a thing. No penalty for one-handed firing, but definitely used as if one-handed weapons in my book.

[The Grue]

Firearms on the other hand...

That would be the off hand, yes?

[CyberWyld]

lol...I see what you did there.

[malonkey1]

I'd rule them as 1-handed weapons. I'd also allow them to apply for TWF, provided they are multiple shot or you can reload them as a free action.

[grarrrg]

Technically, ranged weapons are never classified as "Light Weapons" or "One-Handed" or "Two-Handed" but as their own classification of "Ranged"

^This ^
The only 'Light' ranged weapons are Throwing Weapons such as Daggers (and despite the name a "light crossbow" isn't technically light either).
For actual 'rules support', you'll notice how they have 4 separate groups in the Weapons Tables: Light, 1-hand, 2-hand, and ranged.


I'd also allow them to apply for TWF, provided they are multiple shot or you can reload them as a free action.

Technically you can still TWF with single shot pistols and no free reloads. You just can't do it often :smalltongue:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Both Light Crossbows and Hand Crossbows are treated as light weapons for the purposes of dual-wielding, which suggests a certain amount of precedence. That said, from a strictly-RAW standpoint they are not light weapons, and from a balance perspective TWFing revolvers does very nice damage even if you slap on another -2.

[grarrrg]

Both Light Crossbows and Hand Crossbows are treated as light weapons for the purposes of dual-wielding, which suggests a certain amount of precedence.

Light Crossbows come with an extra -2 penalty when shot with one-hand, so a net -4 if TWF. So winds up the same as a non-light weapon.
Hand Crossbows are in the clear though.

[CyberWyld]

To me this said it all. He has Rapid Reload.

"Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity."

Firearms are never classified as ANYTHING other than 1H or 2H weapons. So they are only one or the other. Ranged or otherwise. At least that's how I'm looking at it. Not to mention the weight and the dmg are far beyond that of the light crossbow. For our game he will be taking a -4/-4