A challenge to the playground: Have ALL the 9th-levels! (3.5 Character TO)

[Loxagn]

A slightly amusing (and mildly insane) thought has occurred to me.

Is there any conceivable way to have access, by level 20, using Gestalt rules, to have access to 9th-level Arcane spells, Divine spells, Psionic powers, and Martial Maneuvers?

I am curious.

A theoretical idea I had was using Cerebremancer or Psychic Theurge one half of the gestalt with RKV or Jade Phoenix Mage on the other, but I'm not sure how to get it to work.

Cheese and munchkinry are welcomed and encouraged. Use any obscure rules, any dirty tricks, any diabolical usage of the RAW that would normally get books thrown at your head.

Ladies and gentlemen of the Playground, BRING ON THE GOUDA!

[Kazudo]

My gestalt is fuzzy. But I think it's thoroughly possible. Whatever you theurge with Divine casting is going to have an easy time of it due to Ur-Priest. Unfortunately, that rules out theurging RKV with Divine because of fluff requirements. So you can get 9ths just by taking wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Geomancer 5. 18th level Wizard casting, 10th level Ur-Priest casting. 9ths all around. Theurging Divine with Psionic is a little trickier, since I can't recall off the top of my head if there ARE any Theurge classes that do Psionic+Divine. Arguably that would be the best option if it exists.

Really I don't know if it IS possible.

[otakumick]

There is the Psychic Theurge. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b

However, perhaps the best way to get all spells and powers is to get all spells as powers... have one side be a psion(telepath) thrallheard with spell to power erudite as one thrall and a worm wizard as the other thrall or something to that effect. I'm not as well versed with tome of battle.

[Kazudo]

Well the bad thing is that unless I'm missing MORE classes if we ignore the fluff prereqs of Ur-Priest, the the following combos are good for one trunk or the other:

Divine/Arcane theurging gets dual 9ths
Divine/IL theurging gets dual 9ths
Divine/Psionic theurging gets dual 9ths

So that's great. Divine works all around. It's ARCANE that you have the problems with.
To my knowledge, there is no Arcane/IL theurge out there. That would be ideal, especially since your IL actually goes up somewhat when not using IL classes. If there were an Arcane/IL theurge, you'd be doing good usually to just get wizard X/Swordsage Y/PrC 10/Wizard +Z which will likely end up with full Arcane casting and Manuevers.

Arcane/Psionic is the only combo that works and leaves something to work with, and the problem is that unless the cheese is thickly spread and the RAW is thoroughly twisted, you're looking AT BEST at getting Wizard 13/Psion 13 with 4 levels to play with which gets you AT MOST 15/15, which is 8ths. Unless there's another Arcane/Psionic theurge class I'm forgetting.

[otakumick]

If i'm not mistaken the dual progression for arcane/initiator was something like Jade Pheonix mage.
As far as psionic/arcane goes, there are two that I know of. Cerebremancer from expanded psionics handbook and Mind Mage from dragon magazine.

Edit: since cheese was asked for, arcane beholder mage, divine ur-priest, psionic ardent(a thrallheard dip to get a psion telepath as a thrall to give you all the powers)

[Zweisteine]

Important Note 1: You can not normally use dual-progression classes in Gestalt.

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes[.]


To get a lot of spells, one side should be generalist wizard 17, probably. The other side might be full-list spontaneous casting class (beguiler or dread necromancer are the most common, I think) 5/Rainbow Servant (by text) 10. That gives you all Wizard and Cleric spells, and 3//5 levels to work with.

Alternatively (and possibly better) is to use Ur-Preist rather than Rainbow Servant. This allows you to learn the spells just as fast, and you get more spare levels. The only downside is that you (possibly) can't get the cleric spells afterwards.


To get all the spells, and the psionic powers and martial maneuvers... That might will take tricky cheese.

The Sha-ir class might help here. They have access to all sorcerer/wizard, and certain cleric, spells.

Here are the first things that come to mind:

1. Pun-Pun

2. Dragonwrought Kobold cheese, use an epic spell to achieve the goal.

3. I bet some Illithid Savant cheese could get you everything.


If we aren't assuming ECL only, you can be a race with full cleric casting, and use the levels for other things. But that isn't what we should assume, I think.

Important Note 2: It is probably impossible to learn all of the spells without some extreme (Pun-Pun level) cheese. The Books of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds contain spells only usable by dedicated evil and good spells (corrupt and sanctified spells, respectively). It would be very difficult to learn them all.

[Jeff the Green]

Hmm. Ur-Priest/Crusader/RKV//Sha'ir/Wilder/Cerebromancer/Psychic Theurge.

Since Sha'ir is bot arcane and divine, it can be progressed by both Cerebromancer and Psychic Theurge.

You could go Psion instead of Wilder, but then you'd need five high stats.

[otakumick]

Important Note 2: It is probably impossible to learn all of the spells without some extreme (Pun-Pun level) cheese. The Books of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds contain spells only usable by dedicated evil and good spells (corrupt and sanctified spells, respectively). It would be very difficult to learn them all.

Pretty sure that a neutral prepared spellcaster can prepare both corrupt and sanctified spells(though casting corrupt spells would likely lead to a change in alignment before too long)

[Red Fel]

One of the problems is that while you can generally theurge somewhat effectively (e.g. Cerebremancer, RKV, etc.) you can't theurge in a gestalt. So while getting two (or even three, if you're careful) classes up to 9th-level casting is possible, getting all four there is extremely challenging. But there is one shortcut.

A spell-to-power Erudite is not a theurge class. It's also not a prestige class. It's a Psionic base class that can learn arcane spells and use them as if they were powers. That gives you your powers and arcane spells, with no conflicts. Take StP Erudite up to 20 (or even just 17), done.

Now, on the other side, you still need IL and divine CL. This is the tricky part. To get 9th-level spells, you need a divine CL of 17+. RKV gives you +8 CL, meaning you still need 9 levels prior. And I don't think that RKV technically counts as a theurge class for purposes of gestalt, although it might. If you take 1 level of Crusader, you can take 9 levels of Cleric or Archivist, then 10 levels of RKV, and you've got a CL of 17. That gets you what you need.

But it leaves you with only 11 IL. And you need 17 IL to get native access to 9th-level maneuvers. Even if you dipped your martial class on the other side of the gestalt while taking Cleric, you could only take 3 without cutting into your 9th-level arcane spells and powers. That puts you at IL 14, still 3 initiator levels short.

You could try for bloodline cheese, but I admit that I'm still a bit murky on how that stuff operates, even now.

[Kazudo]

JPM does 8/10 Arcane. I'd forgotten that. So Wizard 5/Swordsage 1/JPM 10/Wizard 4 would give us....17th level wizard casting (9th level spells), and an IL of what. 15? That's only 8th level maneuvers. Now, there's a reading of that that says that PrCs all advance IL one for one instead of two for one like normal non-martial PrCs. With that reading in place, then by doing Wizard 5/Swordsage 1/JPM 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (or similar) 4, you'd have 9th level spells and an IL of 17, which gives 9th level maneuvers.

IF THIS READING IS IN PLACE, you'd be looking at a...

Wizard 5/Swordsage 1/JPM 10/IoSV 4//Psion 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Thrallherd 7. 9th level Arcane and Divine spells, Psionic Manifestations, and Maneuvers.

If it's not, you're only able to get 8th level maneuvers.

EDIT: But as mentioned above, no, you can't typically do this. My gestalt is a bit rusty. Nice thought exercise though.

[Rubik]

Given all the ways of nabbing divine spells as arcane spells, a StP erudite (or primary manifesting class with three levels of illithid savant) can get practically every single divine spell on their list of spells known, so that just leaves maneuvers for the other gestalt side, which is doable using the maneuver-granting items in the ToB and levels in, say, crusader.

Also, prestige paladin/ranger/bard add all of those spell lists to your class list, so if you can qualify, you can grab those, too, along with all the cleric spells (arcane via rainbow servant) and druid spells (arcane via an Eberron dragon archetype).

[Gildedragon]

to get 9ths in arcane and divine and psi: Beholder mage + psion, Ur Priest + RKV

[Zweisteine]

Pretty sure that a neutral prepared spellcaster can prepare both corrupt and sanctified spells(though casting corrupt spells would likely lead to a change in alignment before too long)
Hmmm... Possibly.

But some sanctified spells have a type requirement of Outsider (good) to cast. Makes it pretty hard to be neutral.


Also, the sorcerer could be useful in some regards, in that it can learn "non-standard" spells, which could include those from more obscure lists. Of course, this doesn't really make up for the wizard's volume of spells.

EDIT:
Wish and Miracle get you a ton of spells you couldn't get otherwise (such as all paladin spells). Gate lets you get various outsiders with the whole Cleric list. So if you don't mind simulating that you are personally and directly casting the spells...

[Jeff the Green]

Pretty sure that a neutral prepared spellcaster can prepare both corrupt and sanctified spells(though casting corrupt spells would likely lead to a change in alignment before too long)

So would casting Sanctified spells, actually.

Learning all spells would be extremely difficult as you'd need an Archivist//Sorcerer base. You might manage with Sorcerer/Ardent/Cerebromancer on one side with enough ML boosters, but I can't work out an Archivist RKV with 17 levels of casting and IL 17. RKV loses two CL plus the one for the crusader dip, so you can't double progress your IL with Legacy Champion and keep 9th-level divine spells.

Edit:
Okay, here's a more fleshed out build. Crusader 8/Ur-Priest 2/RKV 10//Sha'ir 1/Ardent 2/Cerebremancer 10/Psychic Theurge 7. You'll need Precocious Apprentice at 1, Spell Focus (evil) from a flaw or race, Practiced Manifester at 3rd, and Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole.

[otakumick]

Hmmm... Possibly.

But some sanctified spells have a type requirement of Outsider (good) to cast. Makes it pretty hard to be neutral.


Also, the sorcerer could be useful in some regards, in that it can learn "non-standard" spells, which could include those from more obscure lists. Of course, this doesn't really make up for the wizard's volume of spells.

EDIT:
Wish and Miracle get you a ton of spells you couldn't get otherwise (such as all paladin spells). Gate lets you get various outsiders with the whole Cleric list. So if you don't mind simulating that you are personally and directly casting the spells...

heck with a bit of fusion/astral seed cheese you can have every alignment subtype... (not to mention all the classes and spells... and powers, maneuvers, invocations, vestiges, incarnum doohickys) of course this is the cheesiest cheese outside of pun pun...

[Loxagn]

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes[.]

Well. Technically, something that should be prohibited is not always expressly forbidden...

But I did not know about the two prestige classes rule. That pretty much nips this in the bud, although for the purposes of this exercise I think I'll say we can ignore that single clause.

Hmm.

[Snowbluff]

Maybe something like Beguiler6/Ardent1/RainbowServant10/Beguiler2/Ardent1?

And the other side only has to include some levels of Eternal Blade to get access to Time Stands Still or Strike of Righteous Vitality (assuming you have 4 Diamond Mind and/or Devoted Spirit Manuevers).

Warlock16/Crsuader1/Warblade2/EternalBlade1 would add ninth level maneuvers (and a few others near max, to be safe) and also give you a fifth "9th level ability" in the form of invocations.

[Rubik]

I think a StP Magic Mantled erudite 17 (or erudite 10/PrC 7)/PrC ranger 1/PrC bard 1/PrC paladin 1 // cleric 3/warblade 17 (with Initiate of Mystra) would get you where you wanted to go. Just spend money on stacking up all the maneuver items you want -- which really isn't THAT expensive, I think.

[Jeff the Green]

Well. Technically, something that should be prohibited is not always expressly forbidden...

But I did not know about the two prestige classes rule. That pretty much nips this in the bud, although for the purposes of this exercise I think I'll say we can ignore that single clause.

Hmm.

They're frequently ignored. I've played in a few gestalt games, and they've all houseruled away. (And other things houseruled in, like any given class can only exist on one side of the gestalt, and PrCs must be qualified for by the side of the gestalt they're on.)

[Kazudo]

That's how I've had Gestalt done in my groups, Jeff. You're essentially building two characters, then zipping them together and picking and choosing certain things over others.

If that clause is out, then there only needs to be a judgment on one thing and I've got a build listed above which gets quad 9's.

[Adanedhel]

If the Erudite (StP) counts as the Arcane component as well:

Erudite 17/ Crusader 3 // Crusader 11/ Ur-Priest 9
grants 9th level arcane/psionic by Erudite 17
9th level Divine spells by Ur-Priest, if your WIS is high enough
And has an IL of 14+6/2=17, which equals 9th level manoeuvres.

Not the most elegant of builds however.
Probably the most economical build though, only using 2 base classes and 1 prestige class.

[Rubik]

Not the most elegant of builds however.
Probably the most economical build though, only using 2 base classes and 1 prestige class.Well, you don't even really need a PrC. StP erudite 20/warblade 20 could get you the minimum from this contest. My suggestions earlier just give you options from more casting lists.

[Loxagn]

Well, you don't even really need a PrC. StP erudite 20/warblade 20 could get you the minimum from this contest. My suggestions earlier just give you options from more casting lists.

Hm. How exactly does Spell to Power work? I'm not familiar with it.

[PsyBomb]

Hm. How exactly does Spell to Power work? I'm not familiar with it.

You're better off that way, it's the most broken mess of a class in 3.5, bar none. Due to poorly-worded class features, they can turn any spell (be it Arcane or Divine) into a Psionic Power. The "Unique Powers per Day" mechanic, though intended to be limiting, is so poorly phrased it pulls ahead of specialist wizards.

[Rubik]

You're better off that way, it's the most broken mess of a class in 3.5, bar none. Due to poorly-worded class features, they can turn any spell (be it Arcane or Divine) into a Psionic Power. The "Unique Powers per Day" mechanic, though intended to be limiting, is so poorly phrased it pulls ahead of specialist wizards.Pretty much.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Basically, you can add any arcane spell to your powers known list, subbing out +2 pp of augmentation in place of expensive material components. Due to the fact that pretty much any spell in the game can become arcane fairly easily, whether through rainbow servant, dragon casting, or whatever, this basically means you can know practically every spell in the game.

The fact that the Unique Powers Per Day limitation is easily bypassed any number of ways basically adds insult to injury.

There's a reason why StP erudite is considered the most powerful base class in the game.

[Gemini476]

Well, to start off you're an Erudite. Let's take Erudite/(Insert that crazy all-ninths ToB build here). Through Erudite and various tricks to regain experience, you learn all powers and arcane spells. Oh, and you also need some way to know 10th-level powers if you want to learn 9th-level discipline powers and arcane spells. Or get a Telepath to teach you Psychic Chirurgery so you can teach it to others and learn their powers, and make sure that all the casters have Sanctum Spell so you can learn their spells. Do the Dark Chaos Shuffle to get the latter going.

Once you learn Psychic Chirurgery, you can teach it to an Ardent and Divine Mind so that they can in turn teach you all of their list-exclusive powers.

Next up, you find an Archivist who has Southern Magician and learn all divine spells that way.

Now then, you have all ninth-level maneuvers, all ninth-level psion/wilder powers, all ninth-level discipline-exclusive powers, all ninth-level divine spells, and all ninth-level arcane spells.

You are still missing 9th level mysteries, but I think that's pretty much it. Oh, and 9th level invocations.

[Vedhin]

I come bearing 9th level powers via feats!


First step is acquiring a (scaling) ML and a power point reserve. The best way to accomplish this is to be a Kalashtar and take the Kalashtar Mindlink feat. You get ML equal to your HD, and power points equal to your HD. You could also take Scion of the Twelve (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070620) with a different race, since it never requires being an Elan in the crunch. You also might need Hidden Talent

Next, we invoke a rule found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters). It states that "a character who manifests powers gains bonus power points according to his key ability score." So a Kalashtar gets them based on Charisma, and a Scion of the Twelve based on something, likely Charisma.

Now, use Independent Research (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentResearch) to learn any powers you please.



For build, shenanigans with Swordsage/Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Jade Phoenix Mage/Mystic Theurge might work.

[thethird]

Be a psionic artificer.

Get/craft an item of unfettered heroism (something like a schema works greatly)

Get/craft items with charges of the spells/powers/maneuvers you want.

Have the feat Wand Surge.

[Kazudo]

I come bearing 9th level powers via feats!


First step is acquiring a (scaling) ML and a power point reserve. The best way to accomplish this is to be a Kalashtar and take the Kalashtar Mindlink feat. You get ML equal to your HD, and power points equal to your HD. You could also take Scion of the Twelve (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070620) with a different race, since it never requires being an Elan in the crunch. You also might need Hidden Talent

Next, we invoke a rule found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#abilitiesAndManifesters). It states that "a character who manifests powers gains bonus power points according to his key ability score." So a Kalashtar gets them based on Charisma, and a Scion of the Twelve based on something, likely Charisma.

Now, use Independent Research (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentResearch) to learn any powers you please.

For build, shenanigans with Swordsage/Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Jade Phoenix Mage/Mystic Theurge might work.

Well, and actually if that works, then a Wizard 5/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/IotSfV 5//Swordsage 20 would work rather nicely, and wouldn't ignore fluff requirements IIRC.

[Red Fel]

Now, use Independent Research (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentResearch) to learn any powers you please.

For build, shenanigans with Swordsage/Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Jade Phoenix Mage/Mystic Theurge might work.

Objection! (I've always wanted to do that in a thread.)

The Independent Research section applies specifically to characters with psionic class levels, more specifically to the Psion. It is a subsection of the Adding Powers section, which provides that:
Psionic characters can learn new powers when they attain a new level. A psion can learn any power from the psion/wilder list and powers from his chosen discipline’s list. A wilder can learn any power from the psion/wilder list. A psychic warrior can learn any power from the psychic warrior list.

The Independent Research section explicitly provides that:
A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one.

The language refers only to a Psion, not to any other psionic class or creature, with regard to the ability to research powers. This parallels the Independent Research language of the "Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook)" section regarding arcane spells, which provides that:
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.
We can conclude that even if a character has a PP reserve that increases with level, and even if he has levels in a psionic class other than Psion, he cannot perform independent research to learn new powers, any more than a Duergar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm#duergar) who has racial SLAs mimicking Wizard spells should be able to perform independent research to learn new spells.

[Vedhin]

Objection! (I've always wanted to do that in a thread.)

Counterpoint!

The Independent Research section also says this:


Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

If you are a manifester, you can create a new power via research. If you want an existing power, you could theoretically research "Power K, but doesn't work under XYZ circumstances", where XYZ is utterly trivial. Or, you could create a refluffed version of an existing power. Or any number of workarounds.

[Zanos]

Not sure how much it helps, but a hatchling lesser phaerimm is +2 LA and cast as sorcerers of their HD, except everything is an SLA.

[Rebel7284]

Using ardent as raw (learning powers based on manifester level) + practiced manifester

Ardent 5/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 4/Cerebremancer 5
//
Bard 1/Warblade 19

Edit:

It also requires alternate spell source.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Illithid savant alone is probably sufficient since it lets you grab spells and probably powers and maneuvers not sure if they're classified as a single class feature to be eaten.
Or something like
Hatchling pharenmn with LA buyoff

Psion 11/ur priest 9//crusader 11/psion 6/crusader 3 should get you 9th arcane spells, divine spells, powers, and maneuvers. Which is everything asked for if I remember properly.

Also gestalt says dual progression classes should be prohibited but that's not the same thing as saying they are prohibited.

edit: Without LA buyoff switch psion for ardent and then use Practiced manifester to afford cutting out up to 4 levels of it.

[Hecuba]

Lvl
Class 1
Class 2
Required Feats & Other Notes
Init.
Lvl
Man.
Lvl
Max. Arc.
Spell Lvl


1
Wizard 1
Bard 1
Practised Spellcaster (Wizard),
Versatile Spellcaster,
Necrotic Cyst or Bloodline Feat (+flaw),
Metamagic Feat of Choice (+flaw)
-
-
1


2
Ardent 1
Crusader 1

1
1
1


3
Ardent 2
Crusader 2
Sanctum Spell
2
2
2


4
Ardent 3
Crusader 3

3
3
2


5
Ardent 4
Crusader 4

4
4
3


6
Uncanny Trickster 1
Crusader 5
Practiced Manifester
5
6
3


7
Rainbow Servant 1
Crusader 6

6
7
3


8
Crusader 7
Ardent 5

7
8
3


9
Uncanny Trickster 2
Ardent 6
UT advances Crusader
9
9
3


10
Uncanny Trickster 3
Ardent 7
UT advances Crusader
10
10
3


11
Sublime Chord 1
Ardent 8

11
11
5


12
Rainbow Servant 2
Crusader 8

12
12
5


13
Rainbow Servant 3
Ardent 9

12
13
6


14
Rainbow Servant 4
Ardent 10

13
14
6


15
Rainbow Servant 5
Ardent 11

13
15
7


16
Rainbow Servant 6
Ardent 12

14
16
7


17
Rainbow Servant 7
Ardent 13

14
17
8


18
Rainbow Servant 8
Crusader 9

15
17
8


19
Rainbow Servant 9
Crusader 10

16
17
9


20
Rainbow Servant 10
Crusader 11

17
17
9



You get:

9th-level Ardent powers at 17
9th-level Sublime Chord spells at 19
9th-level Crusader maneuvers at 20
9th-level Divine Spells at 20 (Any Cleric spells not on the Wiz/Sorc list via Rainbow Servant)


No Dual-progression classes are used, and only one side has a PRC at any level (so I think I'm kosher for Gestalt. If not, please tell me.)


This presumes RAW-supportable readings that are still somewhat likely to get a book thrown at you for:

Rainbow Servant's casting advancement
Uncanny Trickster double dipping on Initiator Level when advancing an Init. Class
Max level of powers known for Ardent
Early-entry shenanigans on for Rainbow Servant & Sublime Chord