Thought Experiment: Casting without Magic?

[Tetraplex]

Stage magic in D&D is probably the stupidest career choice possible. Who would pay to see you do fake magic when there's actual Wizards flying around? Well, my group's recently begun doing a series of short one-offs, and the first took place in a human empire where true magic was outlawed. This got me thinking: is there a way I could have played a caster without ever showing up on a figurative Detect Magic radar? With Initiators, Gunslingers and the like running a round, is there a way to make this viable? Probably not, but I figure if anyone can work something out, it's this board.

tl;dr If it looks like a caster, chants like a caster, and throws around effects like a (usably powerful) caster, is there any chance of it not being a caster?

[Red Fel]

tl;dr If it looks like a caster, chants like a caster, and throws around effects like a (usably powerful) caster, is there any chance of it not being a caster?

It depends: How are we defining "true magic?" Vancian casting? Sorcerers and Wizards? Do we consider divine casters to use "true magic?" What about Warlocks, with their invocations? Truenamers? Where do we draw the line?

The Factotum has this cute little ability, Arcane Dilettante, that lets him mimic a spell as an SLA. Is that "true magic?" Incarnum-users gain a bunch of abilities, many of which are SLAs, and soulmelds can be shut down by an antimagic field. Are they "true magic?" And what about Psionics?

We have to start by figuring out what are "casters" and what aren't. Only then can we decide whether non-casters can mimic them.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually, stage 'magic' could hold great fascination in a world with real magic because it's pure skill You wouldn't call it magic, most like, but the idea is the same.

[Tetraplex]

It depends: How are we defining "true magic?" Vancian casting? Sorcerers and Wizards? Do we consider divine casters to use "true magic?" What about Warlocks, with their invocations? Truenamers? Where do we draw the line?

The Factotum has this cute little ability, Arcane Dilettante, that lets him mimic a spell as an SLA. Is that "true magic?" Incarnum-users gain a bunch of abilities, many of which are SLAs, and soulmelds can be shut down by an antimagic field. Are they "true magic?" And what about Psionics?

We have to start by figuring out what are "casters" and what aren't. Only then can we decide whether non-casters can mimic them.

For the sake of the discussion, let's call true magic anything that Detect Magic, Spell Resistance, AMFs can affect or interact with meaningfully.


Actually, stage 'magic' could hold great fascination in a world with real magic because it's pure skill You wouldn't call it magic, most like, but the idea is the same.

Interesting point. I suppose it would still hold the same 'how does he do it?' appeal, just requiring the rapleacement of "nothing up my sleeve!" with having some real or imagined measure in place to prevent 'cheating'

[Eonas]

Actually, stage 'magic' could hold great fascination in a world with real magic because it's pure skill You wouldn't call it magic, most like, but the idea is the same.

This leads to entertaining repercussions. Our own world contains lots of stage magicians shamming as real ones, while the D&D world would often feature real magicians shamming as fake ones.

[Jeff the Green]

Actually, stage 'magic' could hold great fascination in a world with real magic because it's pure skill You wouldn't call it magic, most like, but the idea is the same.

Most likely you'd call it 'prestidigitation'.

Prestidigitation should not have been called that. 'Prestidigitation' means 'quick finger work'—in other words, Sleight of Hand, not a cantrip.

[Red Fel]

For the sake of the discussion, let's call true magic anything that Detect Magic, Spell Resistance, AMFs can affect or interact with meaningfully.

Well, that limits things substantially. First off, traditional arcane and divine casting is out. So are invocations, soulmelds, and any maneuvers that have the (Su) descriptor. Psionics are out, seeing as the transparency rule is (or should be) the default. Even Arcane Dilettante is out, since that's (Sp).

So what does that leave? Well, there are plenty of maneuvers that are (Ex), and they're still pretty cool. And apart from that...

Yeah, what others have said. Skills. Basically, wicked awesome skills. Diplomancy is great. And a good Disguise check can't be pierced by tricks like Detect Magic and the like. And epic skill checks come dangerously close to being supernatural.

[Tetraplex]

Hmm, well that's disappointing. I know the Charlatan class from Dragon #335 (I think) can replicate a handful of preset spells as Ex abilities, but other than that I guess mechanically you would have to refluff an actual caster of some sort. Thanks for the info!

[Red Fel]

Hmm, well that's disappointing. I know the Charlatan class from Dragon #335 (I think) can replicate a handful of preset spells as Ex abilities, but other than that I guess mechanically you would have to refluff an actual caster of some sort. Thanks for the info!

I wouldn't give up so quickly. There's more to mechanics than mechanics. You could RP out the "spells."

Have you ever seen a show called Burn Notice? How about Leverage? Shows like that involve characters who regularly con other characters into thinking that they're capable of things they aren't. One of my favorite episodes of Burn Notice, for example, involved the protagonist playing a devil-style guy with a gritty voice and a fancy suit; every time he snapped his fingers, something would explode. (The explanation was preparation, remote detonators, friends with sniper rifles, and an abundance of C4.) The impression it gave was that you never, ever gave this guy a reason to snap his fingers.

Incidentally, if you read the early parts of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, a similar pattern emerges.

Basically, if you want people to think you're using spells, you just have to be crazy prepared. Like, old-school Mission Impossible prepared. Plan for every eventuality. Have contingent tricks, traps and gizmos laying everywhere. Recruit shills. Build up disguises. Be as thorough as possible.

If it is outrageously awesome, it should work.

[Gemini476]

If it looks like a caster, chants like a caster, and throws fireballs like a caster, it might just be a guy with a good bluff check throwing explosives.

Grease? Hidden hydraulics with slippery oil. Teleportation? It's all smoke and mirrors, and he was never where you though he was in the first place. Do note that the last one is only possible in a prepared area. Does he look like a spoooky ghooost? Glass and neat tricks with the reflection of light. He seems to know what you're thinking of before you do it? It's all manipulation and conversational tricks - and he's done it a dozen times already, so by now he knows the standard responses.

There isn't much support for playing such a character in a D&D 3.5 game, sadly, but it's not like the standard stage magic tricks couldn't work in D&Dland. And besides, IRL most people don't believe in magic and yet enjoy the show. Why couldn't people who know that magic is true be amazed by someone doing "magic" without magic? Not to mention that magic in and of itself is pretty rare in D&D - only a few percent are spellcasters of any note. A show is a show.

[Nettlekid]

The adaptation for the Chameleon PrC suggests making it like this, with every spell it casts as being nonmagical trickery. I'm not sure how they expect Teleport to be done like that, though.

The Gnome Artificer PrC from Magic of Faerun can do this to a degree, but with a very limited list.

[Eonas]

The adaptation for the Chameleon PrC suggests making it like this, with every spell it casts as being nonmagical trickery. I'm not sure how they expect Teleport to be done like that, though.

An assistant. I 'cast' Teleport, then hide, and my assistant appears in the new spot!

[TheIronGolem]

This leads to entertaining repercussions. Our own world contains lots of stage magicians shamming as real ones, while the D&D world would often feature real magicians shamming as fake ones.

I am now picturing some snotty kid at a birthday party saying, "Whatever, he's just pulling the rabbit out of an extradimensional space that he set up in the hat, anyone can see that."

[Ravens_cry]

Most likely you'd call it 'prestidigitation'.

Prestidigitation should not have been called that. 'Prestidigitation' means 'quick finger work'—in other words, Sleight of Hand, not a cantrip.
As someone who has derailed several threads with a 'Necromancy is only divination using the dead!' rant, I sympathize utterly.:smallsmile:

[Tetraplex]

That's a good point on fluffing and the crazy-preparedness needed to fake higher level stuff, and I didn't mean to say I had given up the idea, just to thank everyone posting for their input lol. The fluff angle was where I was planning to go with it as a backup if I ever play something like this (and with the idea of pure skill vs actual magic I might), but if it were an NPC, perhaps to mess with a party wizard or something, I would love to do a Scooby Doo style reveal after making the party think he was pulling off a bunch of impossible feats.

[unseenmage]

I played a Skeleton Rogue once who liked to dress up as a spellcaster and keep various fluids and powders up his sleeves where his meaty bits should have been.
He successfully bluffed a mine full of Kobolds into letting him "dominate" the imprisoned dwarves then marched the whole lot of them down to have a nice chat with the young White Dragon who was bossing the Kobolds. By the time he got to the dragon he had half the Kobold population tricked into fearing his arcane might. He then explained to the dragon that it would be more prosperous for the two of them to work together than to fight to the death.

His favorite "spell" was 'Summon Dagger'. In reality he was just throwing a dagger from his sleeve. Was fun times.

[malonkey1]

As someone who has derailed several threads with a 'Necromancy is only divination using the dead!' rant, I sympathize utterly.:smallsmile:

Summoning undead is too divination! Using a skeleton to see how many times you have a stab a guy to kill him?:smalltongue:

[1pwny]

*Cough*Leadership + Preform*Cough*
Okay, so this is how we do it. We're at some level of some class, and we take Leadership. We get some number of cohort members, who all just happen to be masters of Preform (Fake Magic). They can aid another or do whatever, and then we have a magic show!

Savvy?:smallamused:

[jedipilot24]

Stage magic in D&D is probably the stupidest career choice possible. Who would pay to see you do fake magic when there's actual Wizards flying around? Well, my group's recently begun doing a series of short one-offs, and the first took place in a human empire where true magic was outlawed. This got me thinking: is there a way I could have played a caster without ever showing up on a figurative Detect Magic radar? With Initiators, Gunslingers and the like running a round, is there a way to make this viable? Probably not, but I figure if anyone can work something out, it's this board.

tl;dr If it looks like a caster, chants like a caster, and throws around effects like a (usably powerful) caster, is there any chance of it not being a caster?

It's been mentioned already, but here's the handbook for Charlatan (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6543.0).