Tier 3 system - Fighter

[tricktroller]

Hey folks,
So as some of you may know I have been working on swapping DnD to a Tier 3 system. I have rewritten the Ranger, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355121-Tier-3-system-Ranger), to be a pure DPS Class with skill monkey thrown in on top. I hope it is a solid tier 3.

Now on to the fighter. The fighter provides a role that is not normally found in DnD. The TANK!!!!!!!

The fighter has a new ability called Threaten(swift) that allows him to pick targets and force them to target only him. He also has a hoard of new abilities as well as getting a feat at every level. This puts the fighter as the supreme lord of melee combat battlefield controller. With other abilities like a bonus to opposed rolls, strength bonus to will saves, and the ability at 15th level to take 10 on all attack rolls once per day for 1 round per level or force the target(s) of his Threaten ability to do so you really do get to control the battlefield.

This a link (http://tinyurl.com/t3fighter) to the fighter class. The fighter has a host of new abilities and is, in my mind, the Fighter, Warblade, Crusader, and Knight thrown in together.

Please PEACH and don't be condescending. Thanks for your time!

[Xerlith]

I'd like to point out this belongs to the Homebrew subforum. You can report a post and ask to move the thread.

As for the class itself - I like it. More or less. But as it is now, I guess it's got more raw power than the Warblade. And that's... A lot of raw power.
Sidenote - it's kind of customary here to fix Fighters without using ToB, because Warblade redudancy.

I'd drop Devoted Spirit from the class list. Even better - give the Fighter access to just one martial discipline, depending on what route (knight- Devoted Spirit or White Raven, Legendary Hero - Iron heart, and so on) you took.

Feats+ actual class features + broad maneuer choice... It overshadows current T3s a bit too much in my view.

EDIT: Wait, I did a more thorough read. Warblade capstone 10 levels early? Doubled Warblade capstone at 17th? Well. That's... Much. A bit too much, if I may. Strong Will and Strong Reflexes... Well. I'd rather see Con bonus to Ref and Will, you've got high Fort anyway.

Secondary Heroic Combatant - I think you meant "As a fighter of your level -2". Now it ALWAYS is 9th level. And the last bonus ability was at 6th. Yep, better make it scale.

[tricktroller]

It is possible that I went a little overboard on the fighter. Coming from a person who loves a fighter but hears so much crap about them I figured I would boost them. So I think limiting them to White Raven and Devoted Spirit is the first fix I will be making.

The capstone for warblade comes on way too late for it to ever matter ever plus you can get it with master of nine a lot earlier.

Warblade is low tier 3 isn't it?

The point of the "Strong X" is that there are no more paladins. They are dead and gone for now, but I do like the idea of stats being added to ones saves. The Charisma of a Paladin going to his saves seemed pretty arbitrary so I figured I would put it to Strength, but Con will make this character a little bit less SAD and therefore make him a little less powerful.

This is for a new system I am working on that will not have the tome of battle other than for its maneuvers lists. I will be compiling a document for myself that is very much like a PHB when I am done with this that will include them so I don't have to go looking about for all of the stuff through a thousand books. That is why I haven't put "As warblade" or "as barbarian" on any of these documents.

Secondary Heroic Combatant gives you the 1st and 6th level ability of another discipline but gives you the benefit of being a 9th level fighter. It does NOT scale. It is meant to give you +3 HP per die from gladiator, -3 to your armor check penalties and no restricted movement in heavy armor from knight, +3 to hit and damage with one weapon from weapon master, or a +3 luck bonus to hit and AC, or saves, skills, and ability checks from Hero.

[Xerlith]

Well, I'd really, really drop Devoted Spirit. It just... Doesn't really fit. Iron Heart is much better for a Fighter, since it is THE Fighter discipline, more or less.

Warblade is low tier 3, but in terms of raw damage, it's one of the best classes in that tier. The low-ness comes from somewhat lacking skill list, not damage deficiency.

I still advocate Con. Not only it makes more sense, it actually doesn't make fighters more MAD - as a frontliner, you'll ned high Strength and Constitution anyway.

The Secondary Heroic Combatant part... I don't know. It seems a bit too... Clunky to me. I'd let it scale.

Finally, it's a bit hard to PEACH this in a vacuum - if we don't know the power of the other classes, it's hard to gauge the relative power level. As it stands now, i see a high-powered combat powerhouse. You may want to add class skills to the description. :smalltongue:

With not much ranged support, by the way. Almost none. As always, melee hogs all the nice things mundanes get. :smallfrown:

Also, I see no reason to take Gladiator. The benefits it gives are too weak. As of now, it's almost mandatory to take the Legendary hero, followed by Weapon Master.

[tricktroller]

how is +200 hit points, Free karmic strike, 50 points of fast healing per fight, DR 10 and physical damage immunity for 5 rounds per encounter not worth it? One thing to remember about all of their powers, they are either always active or once per encounter powers.

I linked the thread with the Ranger who is a dps powerhouse and skill monkey in my original post.

I have gotten these two done so far as my original concept was far more clunky (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307051-Bringing-the-tiers-in-line).

I am working on the cleric next. The largest way in which I have reduced the cleric is their spell list but I will get more in depth about that in my post for the cleric when I finish it.


EDIT* One other huge thing to remember is that this is going to be a completely rebuilt system. The mechanics will remain the same but the classes, feats, etc are all being redone.

There is no best yet. This is T3 where everyone plays a role in what we do.

Second Edit* The Fighter has no Bow support because it is meant to be what it is. A tank who tanks in one of 4 very different ways. Hit points, ac, Damage, and luck. There is a bow Ranger and there will be a bow rogue and bard probably.

[Xerlith]

20th level is far and beyond normal play. The DR comes up a bit too late to be of use, the 1st level ability is worth basically a feat (Toughness+Improved toughness, both sub-optimal), while, say Weapon Master gives returns of +4 damage per 3 levels before optimization (Power attack).

As you can see, even in your fix, damage scales MUCH faster than HP.

I also have... A bit of a problem with your design choice. It seems like you want to streamline players, MMO-style, into taking a class and sticking with it if they want to fulfil a certain role. I like the base classes (especially Core ones) being able to be build around many different concepts. Broading them is always fun and allows for more diversity, while here... Well, it seems you decided to go in the opposite direction. Not to say I don't like the class, it's just... I'd more see it as ONE of the Fighter's options or under a different name.

[SinsI]

Just the most blatant errors:

Threaten is absolutely broken - too powerful DC, should not affect mindless beings, should work not as "you can't", but as a Distraction penalty on rolls; should be Intimidate-based; should have far smaller range (with Fighters wearing full plate, moving 60 feet is 3 rounds for them!)

Strong Will is counter to class design. If you have a weak Will save, you should not get class abilities to permanently improve it.
You might want to cut down on Dual/Triple Stances. You only know 4 of them, being in 3 at once is a bit too much.

Gladiator 11th: if you get this ability at 11th level, you should list it as "+2 points for every 4 levels after 11th", not "+2 for every 4 levels after 1st".
How does 6th and 16th and 20th level abilities work together? If you are hit, but no damage, do you get retaliation?
What exactly is "physical damage"? Does Con damage count?
20th level duration is too long.

Knight 16th: Is this some kind of weirdly worded Thicket of Blades, or are the opponents no longer able to run away from you at all, even provoking AoO?

Weapon Master 11th: Does double damage apply only to base damage, or, say, to Sneak Attack, Power Attack or +Fire damage rolls?
Durations for 11th and 20th are too long. 1 round is already more than enough, maybe 1 single attack would be better.

Legendary Hero 6h: how does swapping work? Is it permanent?
20th: +15 luck bonus to everything for 5 rounds per encounter?! Are you sure your encounters are going to even last that long?


Hypothetical gameplay test:
Activate Mass Threaten to paralyze everyone.
Use Shock Trooper/Power Attack/Charge/Bull Rush/Etc, coupled with "per encounter" ability to one-shot any monster.
Get Great Cleave and murder everything withing your reach.
Main priority for such a fighter is increasing his reach range.

[Stella]

Here is my feedback. It is quite a bit, but please don't take it as being negative even where I suggest changes or express disapproval. I really like what you are attempting to create here with the Tier 3 D&D game experience, and I hope that you continue your efforts towards making for a balanced set of character classes. It can only serve to improve the game.


As I commented in your Ranger thread, you've made the Ranger enormously mobile with both the Fast Movement class feature (30' move at 6th level, 40' at 10th level, and it keeps going up), and the Quick Move class feature. And unless you plan to remove the enhanced movement class features of both the Barbarian and the Monk (and you have merged the Paladin with the Cleric), you will end up with the Fighter looking like he is standing still in the middle of a highly mobile and rapidly changing battlefield. Compared to the other martial classes he will be very tactically limited.


I do not care for the mechanics of the Threaten class feature. The way it works now, an opponent 60' away could be in melee combat with one of the Fighters allies and be forced to ignore that "up close and personal" threat in order to "focus their attention on the fighter" (this is a quote from the class feature description). For the majority of melee type opponents such as goblinoids this means they will have to charge the Fighter, suffering an AoO from the person they are in melee with. All because the Fighter yelled out "Neener, neener, you're a wiener!"? Mechanically this has problems on multiple levels. First, ignoring the guy who is poking at you with their sword in order to run across the battlefield is just stupid in almost all cases. Second, giving that guy a free AoO is also stupid. And from more of a fluff perspective, paying attention to the taunts of a guy that far away isn't a bright thing to do. Nor would everyone even notice it amidst the din of melee, much less react to is in the way the Threaten class feature forces them to react.


I'd limit the Threaten effect to opponents the Fighter is in melee range with, and this can be more than 5' if the Fighter is using a reach weapon. And perhaps remove the save altogether if you reduce the range like this. This makes sense, because even if it might be more tactically sound to skewer the weak guy in the robes you managed to get into melee with, the big guy with the sword can be assumed to be the greater threat without violating all sense of melee tactics. This change by the way would work better if the Fighter wasn't the only slow poke amongst the martial classes. Alternatively, or in addition, you could reduce the range of Threaten to 30', which is the same as the area Threaten ability.


You might want to impose a penalty to attacks on the Fighter for those he has Threatened. That is assuming that you limit the range of the Threaten ability. You could also impose penalties to hit against any Threatened opponent, which would serve the same purpose of Threaten by reducing successful attacks against the Fighter's allies. And the fluff is reasonable as well: Having the Fighter's opponents be worried that the bug guy with the big sword might come over to stab them is a reasonable excuse for causing battlefield distraction. A penalty "to hit" of the Fighter's Str bonus plus additions as the Fighter goes up in levels would be a decent mechanic. So Threaten at 1st level might be a "to hit" penalty of the Fighter's Str bonus, and at 5th level it might be the Fighter's Str bonus +2. Which will tend to cascade a bit as the Fighter's Str increases, which I don't see as being a bad thing.


Menacing Threat is equally as mechanically awkward. The opponent is 60' away and somehow takes 4d6 damage when you yell out "Neener, neener, you're a wiener!"? How does that work on the fluff level? An aneurism caused by apoplectic rage at being so soundly taunted?


It gets even more awkward when you consider the capstone class feature of the Knight discipline. All opponents within 100' can't move, but a caster can still freely cast on you, and anyone who isn't in melee can (er, must?) swap to a ranged weapon and attack the Knight with no penalty. And I guess even people in melee either have to stand there without acting or use a ranged ability, be that a spell or a ranged weapon attack.


The Strong Body, Strong Will, and Strong Reflexes class features are dependent on a Con bonus, which will tend to make cookie cutters out of Fighters. High Strength, high Constitution, and who cares about the rest? That's fine for reducing MAD, which was never really a Fight issue in any case, but it limits player option when it comes to building a Fighter. Who wants the high Dex fighter when putting a high score there sabotages two of your class features? Strong Reflexes only makes Dexterity even less valuable by providing the same benefit to Reflex saving throws that a high Dexterity would have done. Strong Body also needs an edit to make it clear, if this is what you intended, that it will stack with the players normal Con bonus (if any) to Fort saves, since the stacking rules state that only the best bonus from a particular source can apply, and of course in this case both bonuses will be equal.

Since all of these class features have the word "Strong" in them, and since removing the double bonus to Fort saves will avoid having to make an exception to the stacking rules, and since Strength is a Fighter's primary ability, why not just use the Strength modifier as the bonus for all the saving throws? That will probably provide a higher bonus for those class abilities and it also won't shoehorn Fighters into all being high Str and high Con characters.


Leverage needs to be worded more clearly, unless you did intend that the bonus apply to all opposed skill checks as well as for the opposed rolls which seem to be the intent of this class feature such as Trip and Disarm and Grapple.


Master of the Battlefield is another class ability which may need some editing on the wording, depending on your intent. It might not be to the Fighter's advantage to take 10 on all attack rolls, or to force Threatened opponents to take 10 on their attack rolls. But as worded the Fighter must select on or the other with no option to select neither.


Legendary Hero - The level 6 ability seems to offer the player a crap shoot: Give up your good saves, skills, and ability checks for armor class and "to hit" rolls? Why? None of the other disciplines force this kind of a choice. It also has fluff issues, with the player being suddenly more vulnerable to all spells and traps, worse at all their skills, and worse with ability checks, with no rational explanation for why this happened. I suggest offering the Legendary Hero discipline a level 6 ability which does not cost them their level 1 ability. Why not just give them the bonus to AC and "to hit" rolls? This doesn't seem to be terribly overpowered in comparison with the other Fighter disciplines.




I haven't put any time into looking over the Maneuvers and Stances, so these may be just fine or may need to be revisited for edits for clarification. Or they may need to be balanced. One potential issue is the combination of a particular Discipline with specific Maneuvers and Stances which may have unintended consequences.

I also haven't really compared this T3 Fighter with the T3 Ranger you published, other than noting that the Ranger is a highly mobile class while the Fighter is not.

I'd vastly prefer to see the Fighter as a masterful melee tactician, and this means that her class abilities should support that role. The Fighter needs to be able to move swiftly to the area of the battlefield where she is required, and then use her class abilities to impose penalties on her opponents and/or grant bonuses to her allies.

And I'm still not sure about your intent with regards to bonus spells for stats and the Wizard spell list you posted, as far as they interact with these two martial classes.

So, lots to discuss, and lots to learn. :smallbiggrin:

[Vhaidara]

I agree with the assessments on Devoted Spirit: Yes, it is tanky, but it isn't "fightery" to me.

Threaten is too long range and too obscene of a save. Saves are traditionally 10+1/2 class level +ability mod. This generally puts the save at roughly a 50% chance. By increasing it to class level, it becomes almost a forced 20. And at a range of 60ft, when you cannot reach them for 2-3 rounds and have no method of ranged attack, is also ridiculous.

Leverage is too vague. As it stands it gives a bonus to things like Bluff (it is an opposed check after all).

You didn't broaden the skill list at all.

I see no reason to take gladiator as a primary combat style. I would grab it as a secondary for the free karmic strike and 3hp per hd.

[bekeleven]

You say in your description that you grant bonus feats every level. The table says every other level. I looked at the text to resolve this dispute, only to find that you never wrote it up!

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?332829-The-Professional-Generic-Mundane-Base-Class-3-5)'s my tier 3 replacement of the Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian/Scout. It fits on a page.

[Andion Isurand]

What if you alter some of the fighter feats to include bonuses that scale with the number of bonus feats you have from the list of fighter bonus feats? This would make their benefits less linear and would imply that the more combat feats you take, the better your combat feats become.

Fighter Feat Scaling (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2014/04/fighter-feat-scaling.html)

You could also change feats like Weapon Specialization, Power Critical, Improved Critical... feats that normally apply to one kind of weapon (or weapon group)... so that they need only be taken once, and their benefits apply to all the weapons for which you have taken Weapon Focus. That way if your fighter uses more than one kind of weapon, it only takes one feat to extend and apply all of their training to an additional type of weapon.

[tricktroller]

SO many responses! Thank you all so much for your input!

I agree that Threaten is a bit/ a lot too much haha. How about changing it to something like the Goad Feat?

As a move action, you may goad an opponent that threatens you, has line of sight to you, can hear you, and has an Intelligence of 3 or higher. (The goad is a mind-affecting effect.) When the goaded opponent starts its next turn, if it threatens you and has line of sight to you, it must make a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Cha modifier). If the opponent fails its save, you are the only creature it can make melee attacks against during this turn. (If it kills you, knocks you unconscious, loses sight of you, or otherwise is unable to make melee attacks against you, it may make any remaining melee attacks against other foes, as normal.) A goaded creature may still cast spells, make ranged attacks, move, or perform other actions normally. The use of this feat restricts only melee attacks.

With those changes he wouldn't be able to affect things normally immune to mind affecting abilities, though I really want that to be something he can do to provide an actual defense for his squishies besides BFC.

Instead of Charisma, make it strength?

As far as the Strong X line goes I originally had it as Strength, and as far as Strong Will goes Paladin's don't get high will saves but their divine grace ability pumps their will save.

I like the idea of the distraction penalty from Threaten though if I just change it to Goad I suppose that would be all it really needs to be.

Menacing threat was in all honesty a filler, I couldn't think of something to go there so I figured more damage would be useful.

Leverage should only apply to opposed checks in melee. Grapple, disarm, trip, sunder, overrun, bullrush, etc


SinsI
Gladiator 11th: if you get this ability at 11th level, you should list it as "+2 points for every 4 levels after 11th", not "+2 for every 4 levels after 1st".
How does 6th and 16th and 20th level abilities work together? If you are hit, but no damage, do you get retaliation?
What exactly is "physical damage"? Does Con damage count?
20th level duration is too long.
Physcial damage is damage resulting in hitpoint loss from one of the three physical damage types, piercing,slashing, or bludgeoning. You are absolutely right on my wording the 11th level ability wrong. I think I will change the wording of the 6th level ability to "when an opponent successfully strikes you with a melee attack or melee touch attack..." thus clarifying the interaction of the 6th,16th, and 20th level abilities, do you think 2 rouns would be over much?



Knight 16th: Is this some kind of weirdly worded Thicket of Blades, or are the opponents no longer able to run away from you at all, even provoking AoO?

They may not move away from you willingly. They can be bullrushed, or any other ability that would be used to move them away form you, but they may not choose to do so. They have to stand and fight you.



Weapon Master 11th: Does double damage apply only to base damage, or, say, to Sneak Attack, Power Attack or +Fire damage rolls?
Durations for 11th and 20th are too long. 1 round is already more than enough, maybe 1 single attack would be better.

Only to damage from your weapon. Not from strength or any other source of bonus damage, except for enhancement bonus from your weapon, i.e. flaming, +3 bane, etc.



Legendary Hero 6h: how does swapping work? Is it permanent?
20th: +15 luck bonus to everything for 5 rounds per encounter?! Are you sure your encounters are going to even last that long?

I totally forgot to put "as a free action once per turn" for his 6th level ability.
Once again do you think 2 rounds would be over much for his capstone?



Hypothetical gameplay test:
Activate Mass Threaten to paralyze everyone.
Use Shock Trooper/Power Attack/Charge/Bull Rush/Etc, coupled with "per encounter" ability to one-shot any monster.
Get Great Cleave and murder everything withing your reach.
Main priority for such a fighter is increasing his reach range.

No shocktrooper/leap attack for this game. This is a strict 3.5 core rewrite. That could work in the players favor though, but they still have to fail their will save.



Master of the Battlefield is another class ability which may need some editing on the wording, depending on your intent. It might not be to the Fighter's advantage to take 10 on all attack rolls, or to force Threatened opponents to take 10 on their attack rolls. But as worded the Fighter must select on or the other with no option to select neither.

How do you feel about it being either he can roll twice per attack roll and take the higher of the two or force his opponents to roll two and take the lower of the two? That was my original idea for it but thought it might be way too many dice being thrown about.



Legendary Hero - The level 6 ability seems to offer the player a crap shoot: Give up your good saves, skills, and ability checks for armor class and "to hit" rolls? Why? None of the other disciplines force this kind of a choice. It also has fluff issues, with the player being suddenly more vulnerable to all spells and traps, worse at all their skills, and worse with ability checks, with no rational explanation for why this happened. I suggest offering the Legendary Hero discipline a level 6 ability which does not cost them their level 1 ability. Why not just give them the bonus to AC and "to hit" rolls? This doesn't seem to be terribly overpowered in comparison with the other Fighter disciplines.

I totally forgot to put as a free action as I quoted earlier in this post, does that make it any better? He can walk around with it on saves skills and ability checks and swap it out as needed during fights. Or possibly do it as an immediate action?

Oh as far as feat scaling goes, I do plan to have feats scale if they have similar names. Two weapon fighting, two weapon defense, weapon focus, dodge, are all feats I am thinking about making as the start of scalable feats.

Also the fighter gets a bonus feat every even level and all players get a feat every odd level in the t3 system.

If I missed any of the big points point them out to me and I will respond to them in turn. Thank you all again for all of your input!

[tricktroller]

ok folks, so I have been hard at work redoing the fighter from basically the ground up. A lot of the names are the same, similar abilities for some things, or reworked to include some of the changes people spoke about.

For instance threaten now works like this.

Threaten: At 1st level a fighter can create a threatening aura around himself. At first level any opponent within 5 feet of the fighter, that does not target the fighter, takes a -2 on all attack and damage rolls. Every five levels after 1st the penalty increases by 2 and the aura extends by 5 feet, i.e. 6th -4 10ft, 11th -6 15ft, 16th -8 20ft, 20th -10 25ft.

What do you think of this? Enemies outside of a 25 foot range can ignore the fighter completely, but to get in melee range of his squishies you have to take a penalty to hit and damage. If hit and damage is too much we can make it just to hit or we can half the penalty, but I do like a -10 to hit and damage at 20th level making the fighter the first person you have to deal with.

When I get everything hammered out I will post him, also I remembered why I wrote up the ranger the way I did and have changed the fighters class features to fit into the same pattern.

[SinsI]

Damage is no good - penalty to attack is at least somewhat explainable.
Very bad that no save or anything like that. Why are you so against using Intimidate skill as basis for this ability?

Also, i think you should try to refluff all your "opponents can't do..." into the usual frightened/shaken/etc statuses.

[tricktroller]

The ranger is not required to take a skill for any of his class features. A class feature should function completely independently of skills, unless it provides a synergy bonus. So something like, -1 at 5ft but with a successful intimidate it increases to a -2, etc etc. I have removed the damage restrictions on skirmish and sneak attack in this system to allow rogues and rangers to deal their extra damage at all times, I don't see why I should penalize the fighter by giving it a dc that is ignored by undead and constructs etc.

The way the ability works is that if you are within this area you are having to deal with the threat of the fighter taking advantage of an opening that he sees when you aren't focusing on him.

[Stella]

ok folks, so I have been hard at work redoing the fighter from basically the ground up. A lot of the names are the same, similar abilities for some things, or reworked to include some of the changes people spoke about.

For instance threaten now works like this.

What do you think of this?I don't see any changes to the Google document, so it's very difficult to know what has changed and how, and to try to integrate what's on the document with various posts on these forums.

Why don't you do your edits right on the document? Or at least upload a new version after each session where you make significant (or any) changes? That would allow people to help you with feedback on the current version of things and might remove a lot of confusion over what you've published vs. your intended changes.

I also think that SinsI has a very valid point about integrating Intimidate with Threaten. Since the Intimidate skill allows untrained skill checks your point about the Ranger class abilities not requiring the Ranger to "take", by which I read "put points in" a skill, doesn't follow for Fighters either. Let the Fighter put points in Intimidate if they want to make their Threaten ability stronger, or not, as they choose. It will create broader use for a skill which doesn't see a lot of use currently (or at least, not in any of the 3.5 games I've played in), it already has a decent framework which you can easily build on, and it already accounts for size bonuses and penalties, accounts for magical aids for or protection against fear effects, and the synergies from other skills.

All in all, it will make for a system which is better integrated with existing rules and effects, and then the Threaten ability can read something really simple like "Gives +5 to Intimidate checks.", or whatever seems appropriate.

[SinsI]

A class feature should function completely independently of skills, unless it provides a synergy bonus. So something like, -1 at 5ft but with a successful intimidate it increases to a -2, etc etc. I have removed the damage restrictions on skirmish and sneak attack in this system to allow rogues and rangers to deal their extra damage at all times, I don't see why I should penalize the fighter by giving it a dc that is ignored by undead and constructs etc.

The way the ability works is that if you are within this area you are having to deal with the threat of the fighter taking advantage of an opening that he sees when you aren't focusing on him.

Damage restrictions exist for a reason - classes should have not only strong points but weak points, too, allowing others to contribute where you lack. Same with DCs - your ability should work in some cases but should definitely fail in others.

What if there are 2 fighters near you? Or more? Does this mean that any opponent is going to eat the full penalty no matter who he attacks?
What if the opponent is blind, and can't see your fighter? What if your opponent is immune to any damage the fighter can do? What if your opponent can't harm the fighter at all - i.e. if the fighter is protected by Sanctuary?
Class features with no DCs should affect you or your allies, not your enemies. Without them, you have to deal with myriad of questions like this.

Frankly, the class so far looks like Warblade on steroids - and Warblades don't really need any improvement, being a Tier 3 melee combatant already.

Instead of inventing new class features, you might as well make them into maneuvers, stances or feats.

[tricktroller]

Hey guys, thanks for your replies, I haven't finished typing up the new fighter yet which is why the google doc looks exactly the same ;)

I'm almost done with my rework of the class. I changed threaten to be an increased penalty for the shaken condition. Shaken starts at -2, but with Threaten it becomes a -4 at 1st level and increases to -6@6th, -8@11th, -10@16th, -12@20th. This gives the fighter something that no one else can do. I am having a really hard time finding something to give him as his 18th level ability so I think I will type this up with that as a a blank and take suggestions for it.

Google doc should be on later today.

[tricktroller]

Ok folks, changes have been made to the fighter, ignore the combat disciplines for now, I have decided to wait until I get the class features done for all the classes before I go back and try to fix these on the fighter and ranger.

[tricktroller]

Also, here is a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355789-Tier-3-System-Condensed) to the new homebrew subforum thread.

[jiriku]

This fighter is much more powerful than the base fighter. In fact, I'd say it substantially overshadows the warblade, which may mean you have overshot the mark. However, I'm not sure that this fighter is actually any good at his intended role of damage mitigation. An effective tank prevents other party members from taking damage, and channels the enemy firepower that can't be avoided altogether into something that can absorb it (himself). Even with the impressive (and ballsy) reduction in known spells that you've imposed on the wizard, I think an enchanter or conjurer wizard could run circles around the fighter in the damage mitigation department. You just don't have a robust ability to peel foes off your squishy friends and then prevent them from attacking or force them to attack you.

Suggestions:
Perhaps you might consider adding the Setting Sun martial discipline to the list of fighter disciplines. It includes a number of throws and action-denial moves that would help fill the gap, and can easily be flavored as wrestling moves or the fighter "throwing his weight around" through brute strength.

With all the changes that have been discussed, I'm not sure exactly what Threaten is supposed to do right now. However, I'd like to loudly and strenuously object to and oppose those voices that have been encouraging you to nerf it.

Look, here's how it is. You're trying to create a world in which a level x fighter can contribute in an equal way in comparison to a level x wizard. However, there is an attitude, often expressed on these boards by many people, that it's reasonable and okay for a wizard to hold multiple foes helpless, or compel some guy to attack his buddy, or magically convince 10 guys to attack anyone other than him even though he's obviously got the laws of physics wrapped around his little finger... but that somehow it's implausible for a fighter of equal level to be able to convince his opponents that the fighter is so dangerous that they'd better deal with him first, just for their own safety. This attitude is utterly incompatible with your goal. I acknowledge and respect that this attitude is logical and reasonable, and that it makes a lot of sense. Killing the squishy guy who can control your mind from across the battlefield is intuitively more important than killing the heavily armored guy with a sharp stick who is in no position to hurt you at the moment. However... adopting this attitude will absolutely destroy your attempt to balance the classes. This attitude prioritizes flavor issues first, such as whether the description of the ability seems "reasonable", "logical" or "makes sense". You must prioritize mechanical issues first: is the ability effective? Flavor concerns can be addressed later, without sacrificing mechanical effectiveness and assisted by a willing suspension of disbelief.

Yes, the fighter can and must have powerful abilities that compel foes to cross battlefields and take risks in order to oppose him. Foes absolutely must be compelled to act as if the fighter is the most important priority on the battlefield. Penalties are good, penalties will help, but some compulsions are going to have to part of the formula as well. If it seems like foes who are acting under compulsion aren't making logical, sensible decisions... well, that's why they're called [compulsion] effects. They compel you to do things you wouldn't normally do.

Whew, ok, I'll step off my soapbox now. I hope this was useful feedback, and that I haven't offended anyone.




I'll propose some possible abilities for your consideration, in a thumbnail format. You can freely adjust variables like range, number of targets, difficulty of attack rolls or saves, etc to tailor these abilities to whatever level and to scale them as the fighter levels up. You could likewise format these as feats, class abilities, or martial maneuvers. Effects that are deemed to be [fear], [mind-affecting], [compulsion], or [language-dependent] would gain these descriptors, and would interact normally with effects that enhance, impede, or provide immunity to those classes of descriptors.

Trigger: The fighter kills an opponent.
Effect: All foes within sight may become subjected to a fear effect and/or become enraged and move to attack the fighter.

Trigger: The fighter calls out a challenge to foes whose allies he has previously wounded, captured, or slain, reminding them of the harm he has inflicted.
Effect: The targeted foes may become become subjected to a fear effect and/or become enraged and move to attack him.

Trigger: The fighter deals damage to an opponent with a special attack, either melee or ranged.
Effect: The brutality of the attack draws the opponents attention, and the opponent may begin to exclusively engage the fighter.

Trigger: The fighter deals damage to an opponent with a special attack.
Effect: The opponent may be pushed away a significant distance, and might then be knocked down and/or stunned.

Trigger: An opponent within the fighter's reach attacks one of the fighter's allies.
Effect: The fighter takes an attack of opportunity against the opponent. On a hit, he deals no damage but muscles the opponent away from his ally, spoiling the attack.

Trigger: An opponent within the fighter's reach attempts a ranged attack, spell, or other action that does not target the fighter, provoking a normal attack of opportunity.
Effect: If the fighter hits his opponent with the attack of opportunity, he strikes with overwhelming brutality, and may knock down and/or stun the opponent who let his guard down in this fashion.

[tricktroller]

I removed the Heroic Combatant section. So now it will function just as the link shows. No picking between class abilities. Hoping this will cut down on what I need to do in order to make the classes balanced.

[The Insanity]

I just gestalted Fighter with Warblade. Works for me.

[tricktroller]

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