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tricktroller
2014-06-09, 05:18 PM
Ok folks so this will be the page I link to my various threads and documents about the different classes and changes I am making to the 3.5 system to bring about a Tier 3 System.

So far we have

Documents

T3 Ranger (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNRzJ2MWpmWEdLSVE/edit)
T3 Fighter (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNYVphbnJnTExuRnc/edit)
T3 Cleric (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcDMzUmlucHkyQkk/edit?usp=sharing)

T3 Wizard Spells (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcVFIdnRyZ1UxMWM/edit)
T3 Cleric Spells (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNZGNNSWJsRzdKYWM/edit)


Threads

Original T3 Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307051-Bringing-the-tiers-in-line)
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355779-Tier-3-system-Fighter)
Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355121-Tier-3-system-Ranger)

Please feel free to let me know of any changes that you think should be made to any classes or lists that Violate the idea of a tier 3 class system.

Currently working on : Cleric

Hanuman
2014-06-09, 06:22 PM
I think you should change a link to a listed description instead of using tinyurl to redirect to google docs.

Tier 3 Ranger (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNRzJ2MWpmWEdLSVE/edit?usp=sharing&pli=1)

ect

Iferus
2014-06-10, 04:46 PM
I can't view what's on those Sitepoint forums.

tricktroller
2014-06-11, 10:30 AM
Haha I can;t believe I went and made tinyurls for those instead of just hyperlinking them. Thanks for the idea.

You mean you can't view the other pages on the playground I linked?

tricktroller
2014-06-11, 10:47 AM
EDIT

Also here is some base information for the T3 System.

Skills

There are no more cross class skills. The following changes have been made to the skill list; Spot and Listen are now Perception and key off of Wisdom, Hide and Move Silently are now Stealth and key off of Dex, Disable Device and Open Lock are now Engineering and key off of Int, Jump and Climb are now Athletics and key off of Strength, Tumble and Balance are now Acrobatics and key off of Dex, and Speak Language is no longer a skill.

Trapfinding and Track are no longer necessary to find magical traps, or to track using the Survival skill, all that is required is that you have either search or survival.

Heal: Normal heal rules+ You can heal 1d4 points of damage with a successful DC 15 heal check. For every 5 points you beat the DC beyond 15 you cure an additional 1d4 points of damage. This heal check may only be performed on someone once per encounter.

tricktroller
2014-06-11, 11:34 AM
Feats

Two Weapon Fighting:
Prerequisites
DEX 15
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. In addition when you would be allowed to make an attack with your main hand, attacks of opportunity, charge, single standard action, you may make an attack with both weapons. Upon gaining an iterative attack due to high base attack bonus you gain an additional attack with your off hand during a full attack action.

Weapon Focus
Prerequisites
Base Attack Bonus +1, Proficiency with Weapon
You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus increases by +1 per 6 levels

Weapon Specialization
Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +3, Weapon Focus with weapon
You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon. This bonus increases by +2 per 8 levels.

None of these are set in stone they are just ideas currently.

tricktroller
2014-06-11, 11:37 AM
Bonus Spells
Bonus spells for high casting stats will function as the table in the 3.5 PHB. I had originally thought to remove bonus spells from high casting stats but I think it will better show the difference if I keep them.

Hanuman
2014-06-12, 03:46 PM
So, have you played pathfinder?

tricktroller
2014-06-12, 04:27 PM
Yes I have.

I have been playing dnd for almost 17 years. I started playing 1st addition, then joined a group that played second, started playing 3.0 when it came out, I have played 3.5 for years, I played 4th edition, pathfinder, and playtested next. I have also played dozens of other systems, mage, gurps, cyberpunk, shadowrun, etc,etc,etc.

Not saying this is your point, but just to be absolutely clear;


I am not interested in comments about "playing another system" or "using a class someone else already did."

tricktroller
2014-06-12, 04:40 PM
How does everyone feel the classes would do if I removed the new combat styles and heroic combatant and just gave the ranger a choice of the 4 weapon trees that have been changed to be scaling feats? The fighter would not gain the heroic combatant bonuses and would just be a fighter with his bonus feats and new class features? This would allow the players to tailor their character a little more than just between the 4 combat styles trees by gaining feats instead of class abilities that I mostly made up.

TWF
Bow
Thrown
Two Handed

tricktroller
2014-06-13, 12:23 PM
Ok folks, changes have been made to the fighter, ignore the combat disciplines for now, I have decided to wait until I get the class features done for all the classes before I go back and try to fix these on the fighter and ranger.

tricktroller
2014-06-13, 04:41 PM
Cleric-

I have been working on the cleric and before I go to all the trouble of making the class I would like some input.

Here are a few major changes from the way clerics currently work;

Clerics no longer may spontaneously inflict or cure.
Only one of the four types of clerics gets access to turn undead.
You gain one domain at 1st level and an additional domain at 6th, 11th, 16th, and 20th.
You do not gain a bonus domain spell per day.

Those are my current thoughts for things to change. I will be giving class features for what I have taken away, including gaining the service of a planar animal companion at level -2. Good-Celestial, Evil-Fiendish, Neutral-Elemental

Thoughts?

Stella
2014-06-13, 10:55 PM
Cleric-

I have been working on the cleric and before I go to all the trouble of making the class I would like some input.

Here are a few major changes from the way clerics currently work;

Clerics no longer may spontaneously inflict or cure.
Only one of the four types of clerics gets access to turn undead.
You gain one domain at 1st level and an additional domain at 6th, 11th, 16th, and 20th.
You do not gain a bonus domain spell per day.

Those are my current thoughts for things to change. I will be giving class features for what I have taken away, including gaining the service of a planar animal companion at level -2. Good-Celestial, Evil-Fiendish, Neutral-Elemental

Thoughts?

The Cleric ability to spontaneously heal (or harm, if you allow evil players) is a core part of the class. I'd like to hear your reasoning behind removing the ability.
The same applies to Turn Undead, but I'd have to see the "four types" before I'd feel as strongly about this as I do about spontaneous healing.
Gaining domains as you advance in level may not make sense if your chosen deity has less than 5 domains.
Why no bonus domain spell? This flavors the Cleric with being a representative of their deity.

Planar animal companion is an unnecessary feature for all Cleric types. It makes a little sense for the Druid if you have a type which represents Druids, but it has been a source of abuse, and even if most of the abuse is shut down it still offers Clerics an additional action via their companion which is in itself abusive and takes spotlight away from other players.

All in all I'm not anticipating liking your Cleric changes very much. Why not do with them what you did with the Wizard? Reduce the spell list, which reduces the vast flexibility so many spells offers and therefore drops their Tier level, and leave the base class otherwise essentially unchanged as far as play style and flavor goes?

tricktroller
2014-06-16, 09:16 AM
So here are my reasonings for several of these thoughts, and once again I very much appreciate your input!

Removing spontaneous healing/inflicting goes a long way to reducing the tier of the cleric, by halving their already huge amounts of versatility. You must memorize cure spells or you can't cast them. This is mitigated a bit later on with consumable magic items, but it will always be a potent nerf.

Turn undead is actually going to be a cleric feature that they get at 4th level. This reduces the ability to take lots of feats that I be working on rebuilding at 1st level.

I can agree on Planar Companion, I just thought it was an interesting flavor to have a minion of your god their guiding you along your path. Whatd o you think would be a more appropriate 3rd level ability?

jiriku
2014-06-16, 04:55 PM
Removing spontaneous cures and inflicts may not do much; they are intended to be a main feature of the cleric, but in a stock game, they have little to do with why cleric is good. What makes cleric such a great class is all the other spells that do things that are really very much better than a cure or a harm. When I play a cleric, I almost never cast cures, even spontaneously, because my other spells are so much better.

However.... your pruning of the spell list does the tier-reduction job admirably, so I think I'm agreeing with you for different reasons, rather than actually disagreeing.

tricktroller
2014-06-16, 05:00 PM
Haha well the list reduction reduces the tier first, and then the benefit of that and the no spontaneous is the requirement of clerics to balance between buffs, cures, and consumables.

Stella
2014-06-19, 09:44 PM
The severe (and necessary) pruning of the Cleric spell list managed Tier reduction nicely. I do not see any reason to also remove the ability for the Cleric to provide the healing their party may need while still having the versatility to be a caster who isn't just a heal-bot.

As for what might be an alternate ability to grant Clerics at 3rd level, I can't comment without seeing your class write up. If I've missed the post where you wrote up the class please link it in this thread. I see the link to the new spell list, but that and some minor detail in this thread is all I've seen. If you have a full class write up as you've done for Fighters and Rangers I'd like to read it.

tricktroller
2014-06-20, 04:38 PM
Ok so that is what I have for the cleric I also updated the Skill list with the additional normal ability for the Heal skill. I have not come up with the Church Duties for the Cleric yet because I am not sure if I am keeping any for any of the classes. If I do I might have to go back through and redo all of them to reduce their power a bit.

tricktroller
2014-09-10, 12:26 PM
This is a repost from my other thread, sorry if it seems like spamming but I have people looking at two different threads.

Ok so how does everyone feel about this for spellcasting time;

Spells take Spell level divided by 3 rounds (rounded down) to cast. So
1st-5th level spells 1 round
6th-8th level spells 2 rounds
9th level spells 3 rounds.

Minimum 1 round.

This adds in the necessary slowing and disruption for higher level effects but doesn't do so in a drastic way and allows characters to cast 1st through 5th level spells in one standard action.

The rounds after the first standard action would require a swift action to maintain concentration and you can only maintain one spell at a time.

This is just a thought, let me know what you guys think!

tricktroller
2014-09-10, 12:51 PM
Also, I have removed the 4 categories of class abilities from all of the classes. I think this will function much more appropriately for a tier 3 game. So now you have just the base classes and what they allow. Now I need to fix Cleric, build the Wizard, and the Rogue and possibly a Bard. Then I need to fix everything else lol.