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White Blade
2007-02-21, 01:51 PM
Yes yes yes, we all know that Lawful Evil can be played well, but how would one play a chaotic evil character?

oriong
2007-02-21, 01:56 PM
However they want?

Chaotic Evil doesn't mean Stupid Evil any more than Lawful Good means Lawful Stupid. A Chaotic Evil character is just more likely to be self-centered and individualistic rather than an 'organizer' or 'mastermind' that a Lawful Evil character might be, it doesn't mean they're psycho killers or insane murderers.

Essentially someone who is Chaotic Evil probably wants roughly the same things as someone who is Lawful Evil, in the general sense. The difference is their methods. Chaotics are more likely to use force, or individual effort while a Lawful Evil character is probably more likely to use manipulation (especially of a power system) or a team of like minded henchmen to accomplish his goals.

Talya
2007-02-21, 01:59 PM
Chaotic Evil has about the widest range of acceptable behaviors of any alignment...

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-21, 02:00 PM
Hannibal Lecter

Thomas
2007-02-21, 02:03 PM
That's a really bad question. The character's alignment doesn't tell us anything about the character. Alignment doesn't define (it can not, because you can't fit all possible creatures into a scant nine defining classes). Alignment describes, for the purposes of game mechanics (like spells, holy weapons, etc.), a specific creature.

Describe the character, and then we can argue about the appropriate alignment to describe them.

Hazkali
2007-02-21, 02:04 PM
Personally I would play them narcissistic and nihilistic in the extreme. There is nothing to them but the self and the fulfilling of their desires. If this is at the suffering of others, then that is of no consequence, but they aren't, as oriong stated, "stupid evil". Even they can see that in pursuit of their desires some courses of action are better than others.

blackout
2007-02-21, 02:05 PM
Like so...."MAIM, KILL, BURN! MAIM, KILL, BURN! REJOICE IN THE COMING OBLIVION, FOLLOWERS OF THE FALSE EMPEROR! " Simply put, Chaos Marine-style, ala Warhammer 40K.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-21, 02:06 PM
Sneaky, sly mass-murdering thief with religious overtones and who does what he does because he thoroughly enjoys it.

Ephraim
2007-02-21, 02:11 PM
The character doesn't have to be really evil. Here's are some pointers.

If you want something, take it. If it's too dangerous to take it yourself, get somebody else to take it for you.

If somebody is impeding your desires, remove that person. (Remember, just because you're chaotic evil doesn't mean that you have to attack them. A chaotic evil character can use persuasion or intimidation.)

Be subtle if you want. A chaotic evil character can enjoy a good challenge. If the 'easy' way of getting what you want is violence, that doesn't mean that you wouldn't enjoy your success more if you achieved it through treachery.

Possibly more than Lawful Evil characters, Chaotic Evil characters don't care about the means required to achieve their desires. If you want something and you could get it easily by being polite, nothing prevents you from being polite. You're willing to resort to intimidating and violence, but they don't have to be your first methods.

Ultimately, the defining characteristic of a chaotic evil character, in my opinion, is a willingness to use any means to obtain one's selfish ends. You are free to pick any means you desire but you can't balk at using more extreme means when necessary.

anphorus
2007-02-21, 02:14 PM
The Joker, of Batman fame. I'd say he is a paragon of Chaotic Evil. Although two people of any alignment can have vastly different characters, Vimes and Carrot from Discworld as an example

barawn
2007-02-21, 02:20 PM
The Joker, of Batman fame. I'd say he is a paragon of Chaotic Evil. Although two people of any alignment can have vastly different characters, Vimes and Carrot from Discworld as an example

I'd actually call Joker neutral evil. He'll break apart a system if he needs to, or he'll use a system if he needs to. Either or. No particular attachment either way.

If you want an example of a playable Chaotic Evil character, for anyone familiar with Firefly, it'd be Jayne - someone who likes beating people up, and who really only cares about money and himself. Hates the law (probably due to that whole "beating people up" fetish), but doesn't necessarily have to hate all authority like they try to paint in the SRD description. Money (and fear) are great motivators for small scale cooperation. From the first Firefly episode, "Why didn't you turn on me?" "Money wasn't good enough." "What happens when it is?" "Well... that'll be a very interesting day."

KoDT69
2007-02-21, 02:21 PM
Every time I have players running evil characters, they all end up being CHAOTIC-STUPID!

Dausuul
2007-02-21, 02:26 PM
Yes yes yes, we all know that Lawful Evil can be played well, but how would one play a chaotic evil character?

IMO, the important thing to keep in mind is that the vast majority of people do not apply the same moral code to all people under all circumstances. Say you have a gang member who defends his buddies to the bitter end--but to anyone not part of his gang, he's ruthless, treacherous, and unprincipled. Plus he tends to be impulsive and unpredictable. That's a pretty good portrayal of a lot of real-world gang members.

Now, this person's behavior is overall Chaotic Evil... but he'd work fine as a player character (at least in a group that would tolerate evil characters in general), because he still stands by his friends just like a paladin. In fact, in some ways he stands by them more than the paladin, because he doesn't have to choose between his friends and his moral code. He's not going to randomly stab his buddies in the back just because he's evil.

Neek
2007-02-21, 02:29 PM
I'd be Chaotic Evil without any player knowing that I'm playing Chaotic Evil. Then when the time is right, backstab my entire party and loot their bodies. Do fun stuff, like hire assassins and sell-out the party. For a laugh. And when I walk into town to collect the gold from our quest, make a baby cry. What else is a CE guy supposed to do?

Talya
2007-02-21, 02:33 PM
Personally I would play them narcissistic and nihilistic in the extreme. There is nothing to them but the self and the fulfilling of their desires. If this is at the suffering of others, then that is of no consequence, but they aren't, as oriong stated, "stupid evil". Even they can see that in pursuit of their desires some courses of action are better than others.

Note that this is just one example of CE alignment. At the other extreme, a person can even have good "goals," but believe the end justifies the means and not have any respect for life or law in accomplishing those goals, no remorse for the innocents that die to get it done, no honor code to speak of. In that respect, a CE person could even be selfless and to an extent "noble," but entirely morally bankrupt.

afternoon
2007-02-21, 02:43 PM
I think ephraim got it.

Saph
2007-02-21, 02:44 PM
Yes yes yes, we all know that Lawful Evil can be played well, but how would one play a chaotic evil character?

What do you mean by 'played well'? Do you mean a character that other party members like and respect and want to have around? If that's what you're looking for, you're looking in the wrong place. Chaotic Evil is the most destructive, most antisocial, and least trustworthy of all the alignments.

My favourite portrayal of a Chaotic Evil type is Simon Phoenix from the movie Demolition Man. Does what he wants, whenever he wants, without the slightest trace of guilt or morality. He's hilarious to watch on screen, but only because he isn't real.

- Saph

Neek
2007-02-21, 02:57 PM
By being played well, it means that there is a certain level of ease that goes with playing a Lawful Evil character, not insomuch that people'll like him.

Dausuul
2007-02-21, 03:14 PM
What do you mean by 'played well'? Do you mean a character that other party members like and respect and want to have around? If that's what you're looking for, you're looking in the wrong place. Chaotic Evil is the most destructive, most antisocial, and least trustworthy of all the alignments.

My favourite portrayal of a Chaotic Evil type is Simon Phoenix from the movie Demolition Man. Does what he wants, whenever he wants, without the slightest trace of guilt or morality. He's hilarious to watch on screen, but only because he isn't real.

- Saph

No, that's a sociopath. Pretty much all sociopaths are Chaotic Evil, but not all Chaotic Evil people are sociopaths. Again, look at street gang members in the real world--a lot of them are destructive, violent, impulsive, and untrustworthy, but they still stand by their "brothers."

Amphimir Míriel
2007-02-21, 03:30 PM
I have found that most players who play "chaotic neutral" characters (a player actually said: "CN for the flexibility") are actually playing true chaotic evil, albeit in a "mild" form.

One does not have to worship oblivion to be evil! You don't need to actually endeavor to wake dread Cthulhu to be an evil person. You only need to be selfish to the point of being uncaring.

A Chaotic Evil character can be part of a group, and can even give a potion of healing to a comrade, but they will do so only when it's convenient. They can (and will) betray their "friends" if they find it serves their own needs and they feel that they can get away with it.

Luke 6:32-34

32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full.

Jayabalard
2007-02-21, 03:33 PM
No, that's a sociopath. Pretty much all sociopaths are Chaotic Evil, but not all Chaotic Evil people are sociopaths. Again, look at street gang members in the real world--a lot of them are destructive, violent, impulsive, and untrustworthy, but they still stand by their "brothers."I'd put them at lawful evil; just because they reject your laws doesn't mean that they are chaotic. They value the honor of their group, loyalty to their comrades, etc, which are very "lawful" values. In the palladium system, they'd be Aberrant, which is generally a good parallel to D&D's lawful evil.

I could see neutral evil, since they have both lawful and chaotic tendencies, or even lawful neutral in some cases since they have some good tendencies (ie, some of them willing to risk their lives and sacrifice for their brothers).

On the other hand, a purely Chaotic evil character is a sociopath; they value no one over themselves; they are loyal to no one, untrustworthy even to their "friends" and "allies"; they have no remorse; they'll help someone only if they think it will pay off for themselves in the end.

Ephraim has some pretty good suggestions on how to play a CE character.

Talya
2007-02-21, 03:33 PM
And again, while such selfishness without boundaries certainly makes one evil, one can be selfless while being evil...the one willing to do anything to further a cause, the zealot doing the (perceived) will of their god regardless of principles, honor, or how many people it hurts, they are acting in a Chaotic Evil fashion.

Talya
2007-02-21, 03:36 PM
I'd put them at lawful evil; just because they reject your laws doesn't mean that they are chaotic.

Not necessarily. Following a few personal rules does not a lawful character make. Feeling genuine affection and friendship, or even love, is not impossible for an evil character, and in fact, most would. They are, after all, still "human." Evil people still have some good qualities, chaotic people still have some order, etc. Only the sociopath exists at the extreme.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-21, 03:37 PM
CE has too broad a range of personalities to say any without it being too miniscule compared to the rest of the list. So I'll just give an example; my CE sorcerer Ariath. I try to play him more or less like an intelligent demon, as far from chaotic stupid as possible while still maintaining the CE on his character sheet. He killed a shopkeep that hit on his wife and stashed it under the desk, he collects trophies from his fallen victems (blood, organs, teeth...thank you preserve organ spell!) but he doesn't willy-nilly fly into the fray because he can smear someone's blood all over the walls. He picks his battles, he makes a quick examination of the situation and fights from there. Hill-giant? no problem. Illithid sorcerer and his squad of death-minions? He jumps out the window to let the rest of the group try and handle it. When he's dealing with trying to get a magic item from a copper dragon's hoard he's a decent diplomat, he made best friends with that CG dragon. He's selfish, prone to violence, smart enough to know his battles and charasmatic enough to deal with people when the situation makes it so violence isn't the answer. He's still the best of friends with that dragon.

Saph
2007-02-21, 03:40 PM
No, that's a sociopath. Pretty much all sociopaths are Chaotic Evil, but not all Chaotic Evil people are sociopaths. Again, look at street gang members in the real world--a lot of them are destructive, violent, impulsive, and untrustworthy, but they still stand by their "brothers."

Actually, they often don't. Street gang members frequently beat up/murder each other, usually for trivial reasons. There was a well-publicised case a few years back in my country where a bunch of guys had killed one of their 'friends'. The reason? He'd been wearing sneakers that were a couple of months out of fashion. They mocked him for it, a fight started, and they beat him to death.

- Saph

Bouldering Jove
2007-02-21, 03:43 PM
Thomas nailed this one. Think of a personality, then fit the alignment on them. Makes for much more believable characters.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-21, 03:47 PM
Arrogant and self-serving

Or

Destructive and sadistic

Or

A common criminal.

There's lots of ways to play every alignment. Chaotic Evil is no exception.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-21, 04:00 PM
If you want an example of a playable Chaotic Evil character, for anyone familiar with Firefly, it'd be Jayne - someone who likes beating people up, and who really only cares about money and himself. Hates the law (probably due to that whole "beating people up" fetish), but doesn't necessarily have to hate all authority like they try to paint in the SRD description. Money (and fear) are great motivators for small scale cooperation. From the first Firefly episode, "Why didn't you turn on me?" "Money wasn't good enough." "What happens when it is?" "Well... that'll be a very interesting day."

I was about to suggest that myself. If you want to be Chaotic Evil, play a mercenary character (not in the freelance soldier sense). Mal bought him right out from under his employer while Jayne had him at gunpoint. He seems to have developed some loyalty to Mal, but he's got no qualms about selling out Simon and River. Let's not forget that, when his craft was damaged as he was leaving a job and he had to drop ballast, he dumped his own partner out of the ship before the money. And his immortal words from Serenity: "Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if it looks like he's starting a fair fight... or if he bothers me... or if there's a woman... or if I'm gettin' paid... mostly when I'm gettin' paid..."

Jayabalard
2007-02-21, 04:09 PM
Not necessarily. Following a few personal rules does not a lawful character make. Nor does refusing to follow some of someone else's personal rules make them chaotic.

If we're going with the romanticized street gang members that were brought up, the idea that they adhere to a set of lawful values of their society while rejecting the rules of your society is a defining part of their character... so that does mean that they are better described with a lawful or neutral alignment than a chaotic one.

barawn
2007-02-21, 04:18 PM
If we're going with the romanticized street gang members that were brought up, the idea that they adhere to a set of lawful values of their society while rejecting the rules of your society is a defining part of their character... so that does mean that they are better described with a lawful or neutral alignment than a chaotic one.

Depends (as always). Why are they sticking with the gang? For their own protection, out of friendship, or because they have no particular reason to leave? (CE, LE, NE) What would happen if an opportunity in the gang presented itself, but required betraying people in the gang? Would they seize it (CE), or never even think about it (LE)?

I've always found "how a character would react" is much more descriptive of alignment than their background. Background can mean anything.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-21, 04:32 PM
Hmmm... some interesting archetypes of Chaotic Evil...

On the one hand, you have Jayne... who would sell out anyone if the price is right. He will lie, cheat, steal, and otherwise use any means necessary to obtain his goals. He enjoys combat. He revels in the bloodshed and slaughter and carnage. He accepts, even brags, his evilness... 'Shiny... let's go be bad guys'.

On the other hand, you have the smooth, suave, and utterly depraved fellow who uses seduction and temptation to get what he wants.To him, other people aren't 'real', just puppets to be used and discarded as needed.

Then you have someone like Kefca, who is... insane. There is simply no other word to describe it. He blew up a world, and laughed at it, then used the powers of the gods to randomly fry the remaining cities just because that's how he gets his jollies.

Then there is the Erudite and highly intelligent wizard, who may or may not be a necromancer. He considers other sentient life as potential guinea pigs at best, pests at worst. He may at one point have had a code which he adheared to, but now he has slipped down the slippery slope into depravity.

Even scarier is the one who simply thinks like a bored clerk. Civilians don't matter, they're 'non-taxpayers'. His own soldiers don't matter, they're 'renewable resources'. He doesn't consider himself evil, he just goes about doing whatever he wants to do with the same bored almost blase mentality.

Then there is the religious zealot, absolutely convinced that what he is doing is for a good cause, and any atrocities comitted are to be forgiven. He will burn witches on no evidence, rape and pillage villages of his own nationality, kill anyone if he thinks it will further his goal of attaining spiritual paradise.

The_Werebear
2007-02-21, 04:51 PM
My current CE character is rude, violent, selfish, and would abandon anyone but a very close friend to complete his goals. His goals, however, is to overthrow the opressive LE government of his city and establish a dominance of his religion, which would encourage the supremacy of the common people over nobles.

He does have close friends, however, who he would die for without hesitation.

Dausuul
2007-02-21, 05:06 PM
Depends (as always). Why are they sticking with the gang? For their own protection, out of friendship, or because they have no particular reason to leave? (CE, LE, NE) What would happen if an opportunity in the gang presented itself, but required betraying people in the gang? Would they seize it (CE), or never even think about it (LE)?

I've always found "how a character would react" is much more descriptive of alignment than their background. Background can mean anything.

So Chaotic characters don't have friends? What about Chaotic Good?

If Evil characters can have friends, and Chaotic characters can have friends, then there's no reason Chaotic Evil characters can't have friends. Indeed, I'd argue that the willingness to apply a different moral standard to your friends as opposed to the rest of the world is inherently Chaotic, since it implies that you're making subjective judgements on a case-by-case basis rather than trying to apply a general standard of behavior.

Tengu
2007-02-21, 05:13 PM
To answer the original question, I'd play:

The grim, selfish mercenary who over the course of the game learns what it means to really care about other people.
So he'd stay CE only for a time, I'd guess. And I wouldn't play against the other players, as nothing breaks games more than inter-party conflicts, unless all factions involved and the DM agree to them.

Sergeantbrother
2007-02-21, 05:48 PM
I don't think that there is any alignment that can't work well with a party - and I always cringe when I hear about stabbing party members in the back or other such actions as a result of an evil alignment.

Basically - here is how I see Chaotic Evil - somebody who always does what is most practical and will benefit themselves the most. A CE character has desires and aspirations just like any character does. He wants personal gain. Has things he likes to do for fun. He has people who he likes. He might even have political goals and beliefs and agendas. The thing that makes a CE different is that he'll do anything to acheive his goals.

A non-evil character has certain morals that stand in the way of goals. A non-chaotic character has certain principles that stand in the way of goals. A CE evil has nothing to stand between him and his goals.

A CE evil character can have friends - people he enjoys the company of or who are beneficial to him. And as long as he feels like the presence of such people are a benefit to him he wont hurt them - unless for some reason their harm benefits him more. In theory a CE person will stab his friends in the back - but only if stabbing them in the back benefits him more than the continued existance of those friends. Like others have said, Jayne from Firefly is a good example of Chaotic evil.

When I run a game, I allow any alignments including CE. But I do not allow for player vs player conflict - at least not to any degree that would result in death or hard feeling in real life. CE evil characters will be loyal to the party because it is to their own benefit to do so.

So basically the CE person does what is most practical in furthering his own goals. What those goals are and what method the person believes is most effective isn't a matter of alignment.

Miles Invictus
2007-02-21, 07:56 PM
The hardened revolutionary, striking blows for freedom, against oppressive regimes everywhere! But...he's a bit too zealous. He works to destroy society's ruling class, but he doesn't feel more than a slight twinge of guilt if the oppressed happen to suffer as well. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, after all...and most of the proletariat are mindless supporters of the state anyway.

The avenger. He has been wronged, and he will do anything to set things right. Strangers condemn his actions -- but if they truly knew the situation, they'd understand and even applaud what he's done. A kindly, even easygoing individual...as long as you don't piss him off in just the right sort of way.

I believe it's entirely possible to have characters with noble goals, who achieve them in atrocious ways. That's how I'd play a Chaotic Evil character. Not that I think it's the only way to do so, but I find it the most interesting evil archetype.

barawn
2007-02-21, 08:04 PM
So Chaotic characters don't have friends? What about Chaotic Good?

Friendship was the wrong word. I don't quite know what word to use there. It's "is the character sticking with the gang because he/she enjoys the concept of belonging in a structured environment?" That's lawful. Friendship was just the first word I could think of.

(Heck, you could be in a gang and be lawful good, now that I think about it.)

Plus, at some point, a group of friends starts becoming too large to really be just a group of friends. At some point they become a society.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-02-21, 08:54 PM
I think playing a Chaotic evil character would be a lot like playing a Neutral evil character, but with one major difference: The NE character sees being evil as a means to an end. They just do what they have to do to get what they want. A CE character loves being evil, They enjoy killing, destruction, causing pain, whatever.

By nature, CE is not subtle. BUT, they can realize that being subtle makes getting what they want much easier.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-21, 09:22 PM
Man, I feel like I should be all over this thread--what with C to the E being one of my favorite alignments to play. But everything that needed to be said has been said. There's a lot of different kinds of people who could identify with Chaos and Evil for a lot of different reasons. The title of the thread, however, is "how would you play chaotic evil?" So I'll go off that.

To me, chaotic evil says "egomaniac." The chaotic evil character knows what he wants, and as soon as he knows the fastest way to get it, he does it. What he wants isn't always as simple as "self gratification," although that'd be an easy one. Nevertheless, he invariably takes the quickest, most straightforward route to his goal and he mercilessly annihilates anything that gets in his way.

There's no reason a chaotic evil character couldn't be extensively organized, but most I play would be too lazy to bother. CE villains are like Vegeta and the Saiyans from Dragonball Z, or Kraven from Spider Man. While there may be excess benefits involved (pay, or honor and prestige) at the end of the day a Chaotic Evil character fights because he loves it. The thrill of danger, the rush after the kill, proving your skills and crushing the enemy under you, to me that's the essential drive behind a Chaotic Evil character. That's why CEs can't stand to take orders, and find the only place they're comfortable in any organization is at the top.

Now, you want the picture of a Chaotic Evil protagonist (though Jayne from Firefly/Serenity is a great example).... anybody who's ever seen the anime Samurai Champloo will know about this guy. Mugen, one half the of the series's starring duo. He is.... well, the epitome of Chaotic Evil. He can never take orders for long, he's completely driven by impulse and whim, and he kills for fun and profit as a matter of course. The guy is an ex-bucaneer who slaughtered dozens of guardsmen (he's no gentleman thief), picks fights wherever it looks like worthy sport, and simply extorts money whenever he needs it.

So how is THIS guy the protagonist? Because he made a promise to a 14 year old girl that he would protect her. And Mugen does not break his word for anyone. Multiple times on the series he's offered chances to find reemployment--with his old gang of pirates, or with a powerful Yakuza gang. But he always stays true to his word. At first out of pride, but eventually because he comes to like his erstwhile travelling companions, the girl Fuu and the goodhearted ronin Jin.

Which is why CE can be not only just as, but maybe more reliable a companion than, say, Lawful Evil. I'm not trying to call a contest or anything, but think about it. Belkar doesn't stay with the OOTS because he has to (OK, not counting the Mark of Justice.) He stays with them because, even though he won't admit it, he likes them. He's willing to admit Elan "amuses" him, and there have been points where Roy genuinely impressed him. Admittedly there's convenience involved here (Belkar can get away with his misdeeds better by sticking with a band of "heroes") but I doubt even that would have driven him to rescue Elan from the bandits.

Contrast with the archetypical LE party member. Your Cleric of Hextor is part of an organization to which he owes ultimate loyalty. He is running around with a group of people who may very possibly come into conflict with the Hextorites (presuming the group is otherwise archetypical and "good"), in which case he would either have to make a very serious 180 in his life or abandon his comrades for the Church.

The CE adventurer has no reason not to snatch the other party members' loot and run except that Chaotic characters, almost always, stand firmly on their own principals (as opposed to Lawful characters, who stand firmly on others' principals). If a CE character played by me swears to help some tinpot Paladin slay a dragon, he will do it, and he'll see it through to the end. In a way that's a much better guarantee than "I'll help you--unless my world-devouring organization orders me to do otherwise."

Ravyn
2007-02-21, 09:32 PM
I agree with the however you wants--and not all CE's completely destructive, or even evil for its own sake. And even a CE can be loyal...

My example of THAT is a doppelganger assassin who went by the name of Ratri. She was evil by apathy, chaotic by free-spiritedness, and a treat to play: the most loyal servant of a man bent on--well, I'm pretty sure world domination figured in there somewhere. She divided the world into two groups: those who were interesting, and those who weren't, and her employer was interesting. (Besides, she wasn't about to turn on him once his plans were realized. Running the world, as far as Ratri was concerned, would be dead boring.) A consummate actor, Ratri could--and did--fit in even in a city full of paladins, but if someone who wasn't interesting and on her side knew her secret, or if someone inconvenienced her master... suffice it to say that individual wasn't going to be long for that world. *grins* And she had major creep factor--it was something I was trying to work on.

Thoughtbot360
2007-02-21, 09:37 PM
Chaotic Evil has about the widest range of acceptable behaviors of any alignment...

What about True Neutral? I mean really, how would a DM force a change on a true neutral character that only does things as they seem natural, and you can stick your tongue out at the poor chump who choose to play a paladin over and over again whenever theres a moral dillemia. :smalltongue:

Ramza00
2007-02-21, 09:48 PM
Like Zaraki Kenpachi (Bleach). He is CE though he is on the "good side", and he can be very restrained when he wants to be. He realizes rampant destruction does him no good, and he won't kill for the sake of killing. He is also self-centered that he will destroy all if it means a good fight. He is like a drug addict except his drug is fighting.


It would be fun to play a character like that sometime, just let it all loose but not all loose if you get what I mean.

Note this isn't the only way to play CE

CockroachTeaParty
2007-02-21, 10:11 PM
I see NE as reveling in evil for evil's sake, and LE a detached, bureaucratic, manipulative sort of evil.

CE, in many ways, has the potential to be the most PC-friendly of the evil alingnments, as has already been displayed on this thread.

The key to having a good evil character, however, is to put some thought behind them. Evil characters require backstory and planning even more than good characters, in my opinion. Anyone can identify with fighting for the greater good. But an evil adventurer, especially one that works in a team with diverse alignments, must have very specific reasons for staying.

Evil characters don't work when a player wants to be evil for the sake of being evil. Someone who wants to murder every NPC they come across just for fun won't last in a long-term campaign.

Sergeantbrother
2007-02-21, 11:19 PM
What about True Neutral? I mean really, how would a DM force a change on a true neutral character that only does things as they seem natural, and you can stick your tongue out at the poor chump who choose to play a paladin over and over again whenever theres a moral dillemia. :smalltongue:

If a neutral character kills an innocent person for convenience he'll likely shift towards evil. A CE can do literally anything without violating his alignment, not so with a neutral character.

Logos7
2007-02-21, 11:26 PM
I would play him as a trust worthy and kindly soul,

and completely freak out the party when the find out.

and Do it expressly to cause torment and suffering, in the party and in general.

But THat's Just one kind of Chaotic Evil

lgoos

Miles Invictus
2007-02-22, 12:52 AM
I would play him as a trustworthy and kindly soul, and completely freak out the party when they find out.


"BAHAHAHAHA! Guess what? I'M EVIL!"

"...but you just helped an old lady across the road."

"Yes, across the road, INTO HER GRAVE!"

"The hospital."

"The what?"

"The hospital. You took her to the hospital."

"I did not!"

"Yes you did, you totally did. I saw you open the door for her and everything!"

"Well, that was just a ruse, for my master plan has come to fruition! Little did she realize...HER APPOINTMENT WAS PUSHED BACK AN HOUR!"

"Your master plan is...minor inconvenience?"

"I was in a time crunch! Really, I'm evil. Really evil. And really scary, too."

"Really."

"Totally. I've got a tattoo and everything."

"Oh...yes, I can see it right now. Your mother must be a wonderful person."

"Well, yes. Yes, she is."

"She must be so proud of you."

"Thanks!"

Mewtarthio
2007-02-22, 12:57 AM
"BAHAHAHAHA! Guess what? I'M EVIL!"

"...but you just helped an old lady across the road."

"Yes, across the road, INTO HER GRAVE!"

"The hospital."

"The what?"

"The hospital. You took her to the hospital."

"I did not!"

"Yes you did, you totally did. I saw you open the door for her and everything!"

"Well, that was just a ruse, for my master plan has come to fruition! Little did she realize...HER APPOINTMENT WAS PUSHED BACK AN HOUR!"

"Your master plan is...minor inconvenience?"

"I was in a time crunch! Really, I'm evil. Really evil. And really scary, too."

"Really."

"Totally. I've got a tattoo and everything."

"Oh...yes, I can see it right now. Your mother must be a wonderful person."

"Well, yes. Yes, she is."

"She must be so proud of you."

"Thanks!"

I was thinking more along the lines of:

"This is great! Thanks to your cooking abilities, World Hunger has been utterly eliminated! Here's your Nobel Peace Prize."

"Thanks, but I'm afraid that won't be necessary. Command word ENCELADUS THETA G-1!"

"What? No, the wonderful foodstuffs you've been feeding the people have transformed into--! Aieefarohgoj... What is thy command, Dark Master?"

Attilargh
2007-02-22, 10:39 AM
There was a definition in AEG's Evil Handbook from the 3.0 edition: "Lazy Evil".

Also from the same book: "Chaotic Evil wants it now. Lawful Evil wants it all. Neutral Evil simply wants it and will go to any lengths to get it."

I think those two quotes sum up the alignment pretty well. If there's something you want, simply go and take it. If it doesn't work, well, tough luck. There's always a goblin to kick around 'till you find something else interesting.


Oh, right. One more quote, just because I find it amusing: "Big Red isn't powerful because he's Chaotic Evil. He's Chaotic Evil bebause he's powerful. When you can win any argument by saying 'Hey, talk to the 14-die breath weapon,' there's not a lot of incentive to be organized or reasonable."

headwarpage
2007-02-22, 11:03 AM
While there's no right or wrong way to play chaotic evil, a lot of people have given a lot of good advice in this thread. There does seem to be a lot of disagreement on what constitutes chaotic, but that's probably best left to another thread.

My advice would be to remember that evil characters can have their good aspects, and chaotic characters can have their lawful aspects. Beyond that, develop the character first, then worry about alignment. If you just try to be chaotic evil, you're likely to end up as a parody of Stupid Evil.

I've only played one CE character, and that game didn't last very long at all. He was a mercenary type, and he respected nothing but power. He would yield to anybody who could make him afraid not to (though he'd go along with orders if the pay was good), and he'd try to establish his dominance over everybody else. He did this through a variety of means, including threats, actual violence, and just generally talking down to everybody. He also referred to himself exclusively in the third person because it appealed to his sense of his own importance. Unfortunately, the game ended before I had a chance to flesh him out more than that.

Dark Tira
2007-02-22, 12:52 PM
I've had one Chaotic Evil character, which I played rather poorly. In the first session I looted all the weapons I could carry from a castle's armory then went around town going door-to-door trying to sell them. I think the flaw in my plan was stabbing anyone who didn't buy one. Turns out the town guards weren't as oblivious as I expected and the rest of the party eventually chased me out of town. Of course that was the first game of 3.5 I'd ever played and I think if I had to do it over again I'd play CE much more subtle. Pretend to be good, then lie, cheat, and steal my way to the top.

Gerrtt
2007-02-22, 12:58 PM
I'd play it without going on killing sprees in the middle of the afternoon. Just because I'm chaotic and evil doesn't mean that I'm a complete idiot. Depending on what the rest of the party was like I may try to cause infighting to further some hidden subplot or betray them for my own gains, but I may try to bring a few of them up with me. Naturally I would try to stop anyone who got in my way to the "top", BBeG or otherwise, because I would probably want all the glory for myself, and in the case of a BBeG if s/he or it destroys the world then I dont get to take over it or rise above it....we can't have that, can we?

Jayabalard
2007-02-22, 01:39 PM
So Chaotic characters don't have friends? What about Chaotic Good?

If Evil characters can have friends, and Chaotic characters can have friends, then there's no reason Chaotic Evil characters can't have friends. Indeed, I'd argue that the willingness to apply a different moral standard to your friends as opposed to the rest of the world is inherently Chaotic, since it implies that you're making subjective judgements on a case-by-case basis rather than trying to apply a general standard of behavior.That's one of the reasons that you should pick an alignment to fit the person rather than create the person to fit an alignment; the D&D alignment system just isn't very good for this.

Whether they're lawful or chaotic, good characters care about other people; they they limit their actions based on protecting those people that they are about. They have friends and people that they care about.

Lawful characters, whether evil or good, dedicate themselves to institutions: Nations, ideals, groups (us vs them), etc.

Lawful Good characters often face conflict between their desire to help people, and their desire to help whatever institution they are part of (nation, holy order, etc). Those often have conflicting goals, and sacrifices have to be made by one side or another (which is one of the reasons that paladins are rare).

Chaotic Good characters take the stance that just because something is for the good of an institution, that's not sufficient justification to sacrifice the good of individuals. The ends don't justify the means.

Lawful Evil Characters take the path that the good of the institution is important and the good of others is not. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Chaotic evil characters generally do not care about either; they have no real friends, only people who are useful. If it becomes more useful to betray them, they will do so with no remorse.

If someone who is "evil" has friends, and really does value them and won't betray them, then perhaps they're not totally "evil" after all.

Runolfr
2007-02-22, 03:45 PM
Chaotic Evil, eh?

Well, being chaotic, the character has little respect for authority figures, rules, etc.

Being evil, the character has little respect for the health, well-being, and property of other people.

Basically, this is a person who will do whatever pleases him -- steal, kill, torture, arson, etc. -- unless 1) he thinks he'll get caught, or 2) he has a conflicting personal interest (its someone he likes, for instance).

Thus, you have a person who might burn down a stable if the owner was rude to him. However, he would probably hesitate to do so if someone he liked worked there or kept a horse there. Also, he would want to avoid getting caught and punished: this might be a simple as getting out of town immediately after starting the fire (whereas a Lawful Evil character might spend some time finding a legal loophole that would allow him to get away with it).

Quincunx
2007-02-23, 07:16 AM
In the time of the trendy Cheerfully Amoral Little Girl, I chose that as Chaotic Evil, and still use that character. Take one (1) normal prepubescent child. Adjust play style to the less-developed moral sense and short-term planning of a child. Remove all taboos relating to evil; increase all remaining taboos (primarily 'cooties', in this case). Remove all inclination to obey law and authority; increase inclination to bind to interesting individuals. Focus on what aspects were increased, not on which were removed--despite her being one step away from stereotype, people are still surprised when she does something amoral. I'm very fond of templates and "if -> then" statements for character behavior. If I hadn't aggravated the group-friendly aspects of the character, she'd probably have withered away for lack of interaction.

Dausuul
2007-02-23, 08:25 AM
If someone who is "evil" has friends, and really does value them and won't betray them, then perhaps they're not totally "evil" after all.

This is the problem I usually encounter with alignment--the assumption that being of alignment X means your every action must be 100% in line with X. How many people are "totally" evil or "totally" good?

If I have friends whom I value and won't betray, but I'll cheerfully murder innocent people for money, I'm still evil. I'm just not quite as evil as I could be.

Indon
2007-02-23, 08:48 AM
Chaotic evil characters generally do not care about either; they have no real friends, only people who are useful. If it becomes more useful to betray them, they will do so with no remorse.

If someone who is "evil" has friends, and really does value them and won't betray them, then perhaps they're not totally "evil" after all.

Personally, I feel that you can be evil without needing to be Evil. Evil characters can be generally self-interested and still have good friends, that they may even be willing to die for... but more likely, kill or steal for.

An example:

CE Character: "Hey, pal, I got you a surprise gift!" *offers Holy Avenger, wrapped heavily in cloth*

LG Paladin friend: "Oh... wow, thanks! You didn't have to, you know..."

CE: "But I did anyway. One proviso on the gift; that you don't unwrap it until we're out of town."

LG: "It can't be... you bought that Holy Avenger?"

CE: "Uh... Sure. Bought."

barawn
2007-02-23, 09:34 AM
If I have friends whom I value and won't betray, but I'll cheerfully murder innocent people for money, I'm still evil. I'm just not quite as evil as I could be.

I think it depends really on 1) whether or not you wouldn't ever betray them, or just would require more incentive to, and 2) how many of said 'friends' there are. At some point, a large number of friends just becomes a disjoint 'society' - i.e., the mob, or gangs, and if you value life in one society and not another, you're probably more neutral than evil.

ssjKammak
2007-02-23, 12:22 PM
Gday,

I was reading with great interests everyones different perspectives on how to play a CE char, also of note is what everyone thought to be a CE character. One thing that was touched on alot but never qualified is more important than what is CE as everyone has voiced a series of good definitions that encompass the essence of what is CE, what i consider more important is can the personality work in the game without disrupting the roleplaying or game flow. Playing a complete sociopath would be near impossible but not undoable through subtle means. In the end it come down to game play and what you want to get out of your character, if you want him to have a long 20 level career ending in ruling the world or if you want to antagonise poeple until NPC or PC removes him form the game.

Just a thought
Cheers

Dausuul
2007-02-23, 12:27 PM
I think it depends really on 1) whether or not you wouldn't ever betray them, or just would require more incentive to, and 2) how many of said 'friends' there are. At some point, a large number of friends just becomes a disjoint 'society' - i.e., the mob, or gangs, and if you value life in one society and not another, you're probably more neutral than evil.

At a guess, I'd say we're talking about maybe 3-5 people. Coincidentally, that's about the number of other players you'd have in a typical PC group. :)

barawn
2007-02-23, 12:33 PM
At a guess, I'd say we're talking about maybe 3-5 people. Coincidentally, that's about the number of other players you'd have in a typical PC group. :)

And that's assuming he likes everyone in the party!

Yeah, I would have no problem with a CE character in a party. It only starts to get touchy if you're talking about hundreds of people (like a gang, or a mob).

Jayabalard
2007-02-23, 03:02 PM
IMO, someone who is devoted to the lives of 3-5 people but cheerfully murders anyone else for fun isn't really a believable character, and is certainly much less believable than a CE who is more consistent about the value they place on other people's lives, either by placing 0 value on everyone else's lives and being the stereotypical CE murdering @#$@, or placing some value on everyone but his enemies lives while being particularly brutal to his enemies (by denying in his own mind that his enemies are "people" for example), etc.

Rabiesbunny
2007-02-23, 03:11 PM
The only way I've ever been able to consider playing a CE character was a Malarite with a degree of self control. Luckily, I was able to keep her CN. CE is just so....erm, ick. I dislike it too much. I've yet to read about or play with a CE character I can stand.

Anyone who can make one? I am darn impressed!

Kantolin
2007-02-23, 03:13 PM
Theoretically, a CE person who had friends might like 'Orcs' and utterly massacre everyone else, being believable. Possibly 'Orcs, and anyone who has personally saved my life'.

Whether that fits the logical description of CE or not is beyond me, but that seems to be what WOTC is aiming for with their chaotic evil societies that I can't fathom existing.

barawn
2007-02-23, 03:15 PM
IMO, someone who is devoted to the lives of 3-5 people but cheerfully murders anyone else for fun isn't really a believable character,

I... can't really see why. That seems like a much more consistent description of an assassin than the 'completely detached from society' version.

Besides, there are degrees of "devoted".

Telonius
2007-02-23, 03:24 PM
Chaotic Evil cheats at Calvinball. :smallbiggrin:
How to play an effective CE character ... Figure out what you really want, and why you want it. This is the crucial part, for any character really. When you've figured that out, go after it regardless of rules or mercy. That doesn't mean go after everything you want without regards to rules or mercy; just what would motivate your character. If your obsession is money, don't let silly little things like taxes or charity get in your way of amassing it. If it's respect, that guy in the tavern had better give it to you, or he'll wake up dead.

Sergeantbrother
2007-02-23, 04:57 PM
IMO, someone who is devoted to the lives of 3-5 people but cheerfully murders anyone else for fun isn't really a believable character, and is certainly much less believable than a CE who is more consistent about the value they place on other people's lives, either by placing 0 value on everyone else's lives and being the stereotypical CE murdering @#$@, or placing some value on everyone but his enemies lives while being particularly brutal to his enemies (by denying in his own mind that his enemies are "people" for example), etc.

I think that such a character is fairly realistic. Much more so than some mad dog who kills people who benefit them in their sleep and runs around kicking puppies.

Evil people can have people they like. People whose presense brings the evil person happiness. People whose existances are profitable to the evil character. If a CE evil person is with a group who he likes personally, who he enjoys spending time with, and who help him to gain the things he desires - then what reason could he possibly have for harming them?

Sure, he'll kill children if there is something to gain from it, but killing his allies is only hurting himself. Just because a CE character can be destructive doesn't mean he'll burn down his own house for the heck of it.

lumberofdabeast
2007-02-24, 12:44 AM
Chaotic Evil cheats at Calvinball. :smallbiggrin:
Congratulations, sir or madam.

You have just won the Internet.

Anyway, on the *extremely* rare occasions I take a CE for a spin, I just play as a character that does what he wants, when he wants, and does not care about the consequences or who he hurts along the way.

MegasquidMan
2007-02-26, 06:41 PM
Hmm.. what makes a chaotic evil character...

To me, there ARE varying degrees of this alignment.

Being lazy (Gnolls or Ogres), sloppy/dirty (Ogres or Hill giants), greedy (Athatchs, Ogres, Hill Giants or Trolls), battle-hungry (Orcs or Bugbears), recklessly fearless (Trolls or Umber Hulks), rude (Gendry the Artificer from Dungeon #143, as well as some Orcs), sadistic (Gnolls or intelligent Chuuls), arrogant (Drow), driven/determined to the extreme (Demodand, and some cultists/clerics/other NPCs), brutally insane (Derro, as well as some NPCs), or destructive/corruptive (Demons, Living Holocausts)...

...are just SOME of the traits usually affiliated with being Chaotic Evil. Not all need to be used, I tend to use them as flavouring.

But this is just how I feel. I mean, I know that there is no certainty in alignments, and fooling players by not always acting the alignment jotted down (like having a CE PC/NPC who can actually form plans, instead of being disorganized. Not flawless ones, but ones that can be very good, nevertheless) makes things more interesting, as well as liberating.

I can also agree on what Sergeantbrother has said, as well.

Duke Malagigi
2007-02-26, 11:21 PM
Be warned this one requires a character with an Intelligence and Charisma score of at least 12. Just make the Chaotic Evil one the leader of an anarchic terrorist ring or organization. With the sufficient intellect and leadership abilities he can have a virtual army of assassins and suicide bombers under his command. In fact try this with terrorist groups any kind including Lawful Evil terrorist organizations.

MegasquidMan
2007-02-27, 10:07 PM
so, in other words, yet another stereotype that just doesn't fit the bill.