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View Full Version : The GitP Board Char-Op Challenge: Armor Class Faceoff



That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 02:24 PM
This challenge is for every character optimizer out there who wants to have a fun competition. How high can you get a character's AC using SRD-only material, using the standard WBL guidelines and limited by factors which make the build reasonably feasible?

There will be three categories to this challenge, and entrants may enter into any of the three. But first, the common rules of the challenge:

○ The character must be listed in it's entirety, using the following method of generation:

■ Base of 8 for all ability scores, with 28 additional points to allocate however the entrant likes, although this cannot take a character beyond 18 points in a single ability score. The entrant may then add any modifiers for his race, and then adds the three points available for levelling up.

○ The character must be 15th level, and has 200,000 Gold to purchase items. In addition to this, the entry cannot use more than 70,000 gold on a single item (if an item is being CREATED, you must still use the market price to determine if it's allowed or not)

○ The character must be listed as a race under the Races (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm) section of the SRD. Nothing else is allowed.

○ The character class must be listed as a Base, Prestige, or NPC class under the Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm) section of the SRD. Nothing else is allowed. Entrants may ignore the usual XP penalty for multiclassing.

○ If taking any Prestige Classes, the entry must provide proof of filling the requirements at the time the class is taken.

○ Core (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/feats.htm) feats are the only feats allowed. Nothing from other sources.

○ Magical items must conform to the magical item creation rules, and must also take into account that obvious cheese any sane DM would houserule out (like a Ring of Truestrike) is not allowed in the competition. If an entrant is unsure, they should PM me with the details.

○ Characters capable of crafting magical items may use the prices for item creation (instead of the sale cost) for their WBL, so long as they meet ALL of the requirements for crafting the item and they understand that ANY XP used for the creation of these items will drop their level from 15th to 14th, or possibly even down to 13th depending on how much cash they try to save themselves off the market price. This does NOT effect their actual Wealth by Level, however.

○ The character has three standard rounds for their actions, should they need to use abilities to boost their AC. AC added to the character build in this fashion only counts as half for the final scoring, so any build submitted must list the character's "base" AC before the three round buffing period and the "final" AC after the buffing period. If an ability is something which is effective if you're just walking around in a known hostile territory without taking an action OR has a duration of at least 1 hour/level, it's part of the base AC. If it has a duration of 10 minutes/hour or less, or requires a specific action which would prohibit normal movement, it's a part of the final AC which is halved.

○ Any effects which rely on random outcomes should be averaged for the purpose of the building process. Any ability which has a boolean chance for failure should present the AC with success, the AC with failure, including the chances for failure and success. Scoring will be based on these two factors.

Variants

In addition to the core competition above, there are two other types of entry for this competition:

Psionics: As above, but including Psionics. The entry's races are expanded to include Dromites, Duergar, Elans, Half-Giants, Maenads and Xephs. The entry's classes are expanded to include Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Wilder, Cerebromancer, Elocater, Metamind, Psion Uncarnate, Psionic Fist, Pyrokineticist, Slayer, Thrallherd and Warmind. Psionic items, feats, and skills may be used within the build.

Unlimited: This entry type includes the core rules of the competition and psionics, with the following exceptions:

○ Characters may be Gestalt for BASE classes, but Prestige Classes must be taken as levels on their own.

○ There is no limit on the rounds which may be taken to boost a character's AC.

Well, that's the challenge. Entries should be posted, including their type (Regular, Psionics, or Unlimited) by no later than 00:01 AM on March 4th, 2007. Everyone can enter one, and only one character in each type.

Winners of each division of the competition will recieve a sig-trophy composed by me with their character posing on top of a base which will include the division they won and their username. They will also be given one "request an avatar at any time" mental coupon from myself which they can redeem for an avatar or sig image at a later date.

Cheers, guys.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-02-21, 03:05 PM
Question:
Does the Dwarven Defender's Defensive Stance count towards base AC or final AC?

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 03:15 PM
Defensive stance counts towards the "Final AC" bit, not the "Base AC" bit. This is because the Dwarven Defender has to actively take his stance and prepare for an attack.

Think of every ability this way: If it's something which is effective if you're just walking around in a known hostile territory without taking an action OR has a duration of at least 1 hour/level, it's part of the base AC. If it has a duration of 10 minutes/hour or less, or requires a specific action which would prohibit normal movement, it's a part of the final AC.

The purpose is not to build the greatest build when just standing in a perfectly aligned spot with ALL of your abilities active, it's the most optimal build for walking around a dungeon and noticing you're getting attacked.

Cybren
2007-02-21, 03:22 PM
level 15 fighter with mithral full plate +5 and combat expertise and superior expertise. Also a shield +5 with defending spikes.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 03:34 PM
That's nice, Cybren. How about some ability scores, the rest of the feats (and the levels you got them at), as well as things like race and a breakdown of the character's Base AC and Final AC, as outlined in the instructions?

And I gather that's for the "Core" bracket? I see no mention of psionics or gestalt features, so...

Person_Man
2007-02-21, 03:35 PM
Halfling Monk/Duelist FTW. Fight on the full defensive, and your AC will easily be in the 30 range before magic items.

Also, at high levels AC becomes a lot less important. Far too many enemies and spells completely ignore AC or use touch AC. So if you want a Tank who can survive almost anything, worry about raw hit points and Saving Throws.

Thomas
2007-02-21, 03:37 PM
Why 15th? I can't be bothered to calculate AC at that level for my duelist build. At 20th, with just SRD material, it'd be 66. No buffing involved whatsoever; just need to be able to fight defensively. (Which adds, in this case, +12 to the base AC of 54.) I guess if you ditch some levels and items, you could end up at 50-60 final AC.

melchizedek
2007-02-21, 03:41 PM
Are you concerned about XP Penalties for Multiclass characters?

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 03:45 PM
Nope, I'm not concerned with XP for multiclassing. Seems to me to be a pointless waste and would unnecessarily complicate the character generation process.

And guys... I need exact stats, and it's not as clear cut as who can get the highest AC. Passive AC bonuses which are always active (like a Dex bonus to AC) are weighted differently from AC bonuses which require an ability or specific action to acquire. Read the rules, guys.

NullAshton
2007-02-21, 03:47 PM
Does wealth by level go down with item generation, if you lose the XP to 15th level?

Thomas
2007-02-21, 03:48 PM
I'll just repost the old build. Like I said, I'm not gonna bother taking it apart.


Start out with Dex 15 (increase it to 20 by level 20) and Int 16.

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Elusive Target, Greater Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Power Attack, Robilar's Gambit, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse.

For defensive items, we get a +5 defending dagger, amulet of natural armor +5, bracers of armor +8, gloves of dexterity +6, headband of intellect +6, manual of quickness in action +4, tome of clear thought +4, and a ring of protection +5.

This totals AC 54; +10 for Dex 30, +8 for the bracers, +5 deflection, +5 natural, +8 for Int 26 and Canny Defense, +5 for the dagger, and a +3 shield bonus for Greater Two-Weapon Defense.

Fighting defensively, the character takes a -4 penalty to attacks (with a +5 keen speed rapier, Dex 30, and Weapon Finesse, that leaves +31 as the attack bonus), and increases AC by 16; +10 dodge for Elaborate Parry, +3 dodge for fighting defensively with 5+ ranks in Tumble, and a +6 shield bonus instead of a +3 from Greater Two-Weapon Defense.

Ditching ITWD and GTWD drops ACs by 2 (normal) or 4 (fighting defensively).

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 03:51 PM
NullAshton: No, you don't lose the 15th level WBL for the purpose of item creation. Losing the level's worth of class abilities is already a pretty steep penalty as it is. I clarified this in the rules up top... Though note that the 35% of your WBL applies to the market price of the item, even if it's only actually costing 17.5% of your actual funds.

Thomas: Sorry, I can't accept that build for this competition. It's SRD stuff only, and that uses a few feats which aren't available in the SRD.

njero
2007-02-21, 04:14 PM
Not that I'll likely enter, but why the level cap at 15? That seems rather arbitrary, if no reasoning is given it makes more sense to stop at an established boundary, like level 20.

Some of the other restrictions seem arbitrary too, and could use some explanation. Perhaps I'm just missing some background, as I haven't been a member for terribly long.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 04:21 PM
15th level keeps the Druids from pulling broken combos with Wild Shaping into elementals, keeps the primary spellcasters from using 8th and 9th level spells, and generally allows for a variety of builds.

Likewise, the reason AC added by abilities is halved for scoring is because it's specific. A +4 to AC which is active all the time (or nearly so) is a lot more useful than a +4 to AC for ten rounds which requires you waste an action at the start of a fight. It's not just about the HIGHEST AC, but the HIGHEST AC which is viable in a dungeon crawl.

Telonius
2007-02-21, 04:32 PM
EDIT: Ugh, nevermind, can't work with the two spells; has to be wizard not Sorc.
EDIT again: Hmmm... Missed that +6 attack bonus requirement. Back to the drawing board.

okpokalypse
2007-02-21, 04:43 PM
I'll go more into detail later, but just off the top of my head:

Githerzai Monk 1 / Psychic Warrior 12 (+2 ECL)

Str: 12 (Base)
Dex: 14 (Base) +6 (Race) +4 (Enh) = 24 (+7)
Con: 14 (Base)
Int: 12 (Base) -2 (Race)
Wis: 14 (Base) +2 (Race) +5 (Enh) +3 (Lev)= 24 (+7)
Cha: 10 (Base)

Items of Note (ECL Wealth Level = 200,000 gpv):
- +5 Wis Item (25,000 gpv)
- +4 Dex Item (16,000 gpv)
- +5 Natural AC Item (50,000 gpv)
- +5 Deflection AC Item (50,000 gpv)
- +4 Defending Kukri (50,000)

Feat: Practiced Maifester (To get L13 ML)

Total Dex Bonus to AC: +14
Inertial Armor (13 Hour Duration) = Armor AC +10
Force Screen (By Use) = Shield AC +7
Precognition, Defensive
Standard Action: +5 AC & Saves (Insight Bonus)
Swift Action: +3 AC & Saves (Insight Bonus)

Base AC: 10 +14 (Dex) +10 (Armor) +7 (Shield) +5 (Natural) +5 (Deflect) +4 (Def Wp) +5 (Insight) = 60 AC.

Flat Footed: 46 AC
Touch: 34 AC

By ECL 20 this PC can increase a total of 2 Armor AC, 1 Shield AC, 2 Insight AC and 1 for the Defending Weapon. That's another +6.

Also, they will likely increase +2 Wis and Dex each via items, another +2 Wis from Level Bonuses, And potentially get Inherent Item Bonuses, which could lead to another boost of +7 to Dex AC.

With those two, at ECL 20, that's a 73 AC.

This doesn't include Dex Augmentation from further powers which target Insight Bonuses (Adrenaline Boost - swift - up to +8 Str & Dex), or the commission of Magic Items with non-enhancement boost to Dex & Wis. A Sacred Relic, for Example, could have a +6 Dex & Wis (Sacred) Bonus and a +5 AC (Sacred) Bonus for a sacrifice cost of 273,750 GP. That would bring total AC up to an 88 AC at ECL 20.

This can be boosted further through good feat planning, defensive fighting, etc... An AC of 100 isn't completely out of the question either if Overchannel is applied to some of the AC boosting powers.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-21, 05:05 PM
8 str, 17 (to 18) dex 6 con, 18 int (to 20), 14 wis, 8 cha. Grey elf.

Periapt of wisdom +4, Gloves of dexterity +6, Headband of intellect +4, for
10, 24, 10, 24, 18, 8. Bracers of armour +6, Ring of protection +3, Amulet of natural armour +3, +3 defending rapier, dusty rose ioun stone, dagger (195K). Monk 1, Fighter 6, Duelist 8. For the cheapness, if one shot only, swap ring and amulet for +8 bracers and a potion of Barkskin +5 as well as a shield of faith +5 (temporary, +6 total).

Tumble 25, (for defensive fighting). TWF, TWD, dodge, mobility, weapon finesse, combat expertise, (damn the lack of CWar), combat reflexes, any feats you bloody like. (all 3 or so left).

41 base AC, in combat is +13 from defensive fighting, +5 from combat expertise, +3 from defending. 62. 68 with the one shots.

Potion of reduce person for another +2. 70 Temp.

Telonius doth cheateth (or at least misuseth accidentally). His weapon of +3 defending is 24K more expensive than he says. He stacketh a ring of protection and protection from evil. He also misuses canny defense for +4 to AC from nothing. He should be at least 6 AC down, and is 23K over his RWT.

OK's build wins, unless psionics aren't counted as core (which may make sense)

Telonius
2007-02-21, 05:24 PM
Telonius doth cheateth (or at least misuseth accidentally). His weapon of +3 defending is 24K more expensive than he says. He stacketh a ring of protection and protection from evil. He also misuses canny defense for +4 to AC from nothing. He should be at least 6 AC down, and is 23K over his RWT.
Ah, thanks for catching those - I'd been playing around with costs, and forgot to update the final cost of the sword. Completely missed the Protections stacking - which is nice, as I can throw away that ring and get some more AC now. :smallcool:

For Canny Defense -


When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted) or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Since my INT bonus would have been +7 at that point (18 from stats, +6 from items = 24), wouldn't that mean a +7 to AC? Or is the bonus just from base, disregarding items?

UglyPanda
2007-02-21, 06:18 PM
This definitely isn't going to win, but I'm bored. I'm not sure how much 15th level WBL is, by the way.

Wimpy McTurtle the Halfling
Starting stats:
Str 6 Dex 18 Con 8 Int 16 Wis 15 Cha 8

Level 15 Stats:
Str 8(6) Dex 20 (28) Con 6 Int 16 (22) Wis 16 (22) Cha 8

Ftr 6/Monk 1/Duelist 8
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon finesse, 5 ranks in tumble, Combat expertise, Superior expertise

Items:
Gloves of Dex +6 (36000); Headband of Intellect +6(36000); Periapt of wisdom +6(36000); Shield of faith +5 potion (900); Barkskin +5 potion (1200); Bracers of armor +6 (36000); Scroll of reduce person (25) & Scroll of permanency (10125); Dusty rose ioun stone (5000); +3 defending rapier (32000);

Base AC total:
First & second rounds: Drink potions
Last round: Total Defense
10
Dex: +9
Int: +6
Bracers: +6
Wis: +6
Size: +2
Defending: +3
Ioun stone: +1

43 so far

Potions give +10 AC
Attacking defensively gives +11 to AC
Superior expertise may or may not give +14 to AC

[edit]Here is the opposite approach to the problem. Instead of being light and dodging, this next build is nearly a rock.

Rocky Turtleshell the Dwarf
Starting stats:
Str 8 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 16 Wis 15 Cha 8

+5 Mithral full-plate (36500); +5 animated Mithral Tower Shield (50000); +4 defending gauntlet (50000); +3 defending spiked gauntlet(32000); Shield of faith +5 potion (900); Barkskin +5 potion (1200); Dusty rose ioun stone (5000); Scroll of reduce person (25) & Scroll of permanency (10125); Handy Haversack(2000)
Cost (At least 187750)

Fighter 7/ Dwarven Defender 8
Feats: Dodge, Endurance, Toughness, Quick draw, Combat Expertise, Two-weapon fighting.
Skills: 5 ranks of tumble

First two rounds: Drink potions;
Last round: Take stance, fight defensively

Base: 10
Armor: +13
Shield: +9
Weapons: +7 or +4
Dex: +3
Ioun Stone: +1
Dwarven Defender: +3
Size: +1
Base AC: 44 or 47

Potions: +10
Defensive Stance: +4
Fighting Defensively: +3
Expertise: +5

[Edit 2]Reread SRD entry, I can't make shrink item permanent for a dwarf, but I can make reduce person permanent.

[Edit 3]Changed costs. Whether or not defending weapons stack is something that's debatable, so I'm going to list both possible ACs. I'm not using custom items, and I'm still short of 200k, so I'm not going to win anyway. I'm just posting for fun.

[Edit 4]Changed weapons to gauntlets. This character now doesn't have to put down his weapons to grab the potions, and since he doesn't take them off in hostile territory, will always keep the defending ability active.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 07:47 PM
Don't worry about the final scores for now, just write down all the bonuses.

And okpokalypse's build (while awesome and likely to win the contest for the Psionics section with just a touch of modification) breaks the rules because Giths aren't in the SRD.

Edit: Guys, there's plenty of gold left over. You've got 200,000 to play with, after all.

UglyPanda: Essentially you're looking for something which uses Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) continuously, right? Potions of Reduce Person would cost 50 gold. A continuous use item of Reduce Person would cost at least 6000 Gold, though I'd likely put it at a Physical Transformation item so it'd be 9000 Gold if it wasn't a Cloak, Cape, or Mantle.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-21, 09:23 PM
Tel, your build had.. I can't remember. But your AC was 4 higher than your... Damnit. Can you repost that? I seems to recall you having AC 4 higher than your int/dex/wis+2... from stats/size/5lvls monk.

And yeah, it would be a +7..


Rocky Turtleshell the Dwarf
Starting stats:
Str 8 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 16 Wis 15 Cha 8

+5 Mithral full-plate (25000) 35K, 9k for mithral, 1.5K for plate, 25 for enhancement); +5 animated Tower Shield (49000); 2 * +5 defending longswords (72000)Each, 144000; Shield of faith +5 potion (900); Barkskin +5 potion (1200); Dusty rose ioun stone (5000); Scroll of reduce person (25) & Scroll of permanency (10125);
Cost (At least 163250)You're off by 82K

Fighter 7/ Dwarven Defender 8
Feats: Dodge, Endurance, Toughness, Quick draw, Combat Expertise, Superior Expertise (Not. Damned. CORE!) ,Two-weapon fighting.
Skills: 5 ranks of tumble

First two rounds: Drink potions;
Last round: Take stance, fight defensively

Base: 10
Armor: +13 (Right)
Shield: +9 (Right)
Swords: +10 (Wrong, unnamed bonuses don't stack)Dex: +3 (Wrong, +2 max dex from tower shield, even if animated)Ioun Stone: +1
Dwarven Defender: +3
Size: +1
Base AC: 50 (Off by only 6)

Potions: +10
Defensive Stance: +4
Fighting Defensively: +3
If expertise can be used while fighting defensively: +16. I don’t think it can, however.It can, but superior expertise isn't core, so only +5

The minimum score for this build is 60.

[Edit 2]Reread SRD entry, I can't make shrink item permanent for a dwarf, but I can make reduce person permanent.

Total of 65. Very nice Remove the other longsword, it's redundant, and you're in RWT


I shall try again in the morning.

Indon
2007-02-21, 10:29 PM
Question: Are subraces of the base SRD races permitted, in any of the category rulesets?

Of course, that would make half the entrants svirfneblin, but hey...

Also, I'd like to note that untyped bonuses do stack if they come from different sources (Citation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking)). Now, the question as to if multiple Defending weapons are seperate sources because they're different weapons, or a single source because it's a single type of weapon enchantment, I feel would be up to the contests' judge.

Edit: Actually, upon closer examination, non-type stacking even with seperate sources is ambiguous. If two things both have no type, does that make them have the same type? Hmm...

Douglas
2007-02-21, 11:49 PM
Superior Expertise (Not. Damned. CORE!)
It's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#superiorExpertise)

Swords: +10 (Wrong, unnamed bonuses don't stack)
modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking)
The two swords are different sources and the bonus has no type.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-22, 12:45 AM
Don't worry about the final scores for now, just write down all the bonuses.

And okpokalypse's build (while awesome and likely to win the contest for the Psionics section with just a touch of modification) breaks the rules because Giths aren't in the SRD.
When you specify "Core", do you mean Core, as in part of the three Core Rulebooks, or do you mean SRD? Githzerai are in the Monster Manual. There's a difference between SRD and Core.

EDIT: And, of course, as Douglas pointed out, there's plenty of stuff in the SRD that's not from the Core Rulebooks.

barawn
2007-02-22, 12:55 AM
The two swords are different sources and the bonus has no type.

The swords, however, don't boost your base AC. Defending weapons have to be switched to provide AC boost via a free action.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-02-22, 05:59 AM
The two swords are different sources and the bonus has no type.

do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)
I think two swords with the same enchantment are a similar case to two castings of the same spell...

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 09:31 AM
By Core SRD, I mean the following entries from http://www.d20srd.org:

Basics, Races, & Description (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/basicsRacesDescription.htm)
Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm)
Skills (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/skills.htm)
Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/feats.htm)
Magic Items (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicItems.htm)
Equipment & Special Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/equipment.htm)
Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/combat.htm)
Condition Summary (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm)
Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/specialAbilities.htm)
Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/magicOverview.htm)
Spell Lists & Domains (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spellLists.htm)
Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm)Those are Core SRD. I've got a Psionics division for everything under the Psionics portion of the SRD, and an Unlimited division (which I'll expand to include feats under the Epic section of the SRD).

EDIT: I've updated the rules to reflect this...

NullAshton
2007-02-22, 09:38 AM
Um. None of the people here can USE the epic feats, as you get your first epic feat at level 21.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 09:47 AM
I should have caught that, but lanky is running on about an hour's sleep this morning...

Edit: Oh, and Indon... the Races sections are all very clear. If you're entering the Core portion of the challenge, you can use anything listed under Races (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm) in the SRD. If you're entering Psionics or Unlimited, you can add Dromites, Duergar, Elans, Half-Giants, Maenads and Xephs. Been that way since I wrote the rules the first time. So no, there are no subraces.

Telonius
2007-02-22, 09:56 AM
Tel, your build had.. I can't remember. But your AC was 4 higher than your... Damnit. Can you repost that? I seems to recall you having AC 4 higher than your int/dex/wis+2... from stats/size/5lvls monk.

And yeah, it would be a +7..




Okay, still a work in progress, but here it is. A potenitally sneaky use of the Ride skill in there, too. :smallbiggrin:

Halfling
Monk1/Fighter6/Wizard1/Duelist7
Prereqs to Duellist: Feats.
1-Dodge
3-Mobility
6-Weapon Finesse
9 - Two Weapon Fighting
12 - Two Weapon Defense
Fighter Feat: Quick Draw.
Fighter Feat: Combat Expertise
Skills: Perform and Tumble are Monk class skills. Qualifies after 3rd level.
BAB 6: qualifies after 6 levels of Fighter.

Standard: 10
Small +1 Size
Duelist Canny Defense Add Int bonus to Dex bonus
Dex 16 (+3) - Halfling Dex 18 (+4)
Int 16 (+3) - 2 Stat Bumps Int 18 (+4)
Wis 15 (+2) Stat Bump Wis 16 (+3)
Two Weapon Defense gives +1 Shield AC.
Other stats are all 8.
Max out Ride skill.
Total from Stats: 23

Items:
Potion of Barkskin +5 (1.2k) - not included in AC yet.
Monk's Belt (13k)- +1AC, allows Wis bonus to AC.
Dusty Rose Ioun (5k) - +1 AC
Headband of Intellect +6 (36k) - +3 AC. (Total INT bonus now +7)
Gloves of Dex +6 (36k) - +3 AC
Periapt of Wis +6 (36k) - +3 AC
+2 Defending Sword (18k) - +2 AC (unnamed)
+6 Bracers of Armor (36k) - +6 AC (armor)
+3 Ring of Protection (18k) - +3 AC (deflection)
2 Standard daggers - chump change.
Riding Dog - chump change.
A little less than 1k(?) leftover.
Total from Items: +22 AC
Total Base (Stats plus Items) = AC 45

Round 1 - Start with both weapons out. Drop dagger as a free action. Cast Reduce Person.
Reduce Person +1 Size
Reduce Person +1 (Dex increases by 2)


Round 2 - Drink potion of Barkskin as a standard action. Barkskin +5 Natural Armor. Draw second dagger as a free action. (Quick Draw).

Round 3 - Use Combat Expertise to shift +5 from attack modifier to AC. Attack riding dog Defensively, using only one attack, with dagger, attempting to do nonlethal damage. (This deals a maximum of 4 points of subdual damage on a successful critical hit; Riding Dogs have 13 total HP). Declare Dodge target. Use Ride skill to get Cover from mount (DC 15; auto-success since it's maxed).
Cover +4 AC (unnamed).
Fight Defensively +3 Dodge
Combat Expertise +5 Dodge
Duelist Elaborate Parry +7 Dodge (7 Duelist levels)
Dodge Feat +1 Dodge
Two Weapon Defense - an additional +1 Shield bonus for Full Defense

Total AC: 73

Round 4 - give dog a biscuit and hope he isn't too mad at me.

barawn
2007-02-22, 10:51 AM
Total Defense +4 Dodge


psst: Total Defense is +6 dodge with 5+ ranks in Tumble.

oh, and the Ride skill to gain cover doesn't take an action. Which has to be the stupidest rule in the SRD.

Telonius
2007-02-22, 11:10 AM
...?! Wow, I had never noticed that one before. Was that a 3.5 change?

barawn
2007-02-22, 11:56 AM
...?! Wow, I had never noticed that one before. Was that a 3.5 change?

I think so, yeah. 3.0 didn't specify, so that's probably why they added it. Can't attack or cast a spell, but the idea that you can draw a sword, while fully defending yourself, and drop to hang on the side of your mount anytime someone attacks you with a DC 15 ride check seems a bit silly to me. Especially when defending yourself, drawing your sword and dropping to the ground is a DC 20 ride check. So yes, you can claim cover and do total defense in one turn. (In fact, I think that's the way it's supposed to be done - you have to do a DC 15 Ride check for each combatant who attacks you at different places in initiative order, according to the FAQ).

Telonius
2007-02-22, 12:00 PM
I meant the extra bonuses granted by Tumble, but still. RAW-legit, though, so in it goes!

barawn
2007-02-22, 12:33 PM
I meant the extra bonuses granted by Tumble, but still. RAW-legit, though, so in it goes!

Oh. Yeah, that's a 3.5ism too, as well.

You want to move the "Cover from mount" to the last round, by the way. Like I said, it's supposed to be done when you're attacked. The SRD isn't clear on that, but the FAQ kindof is.

You also need to draw the second sword during combat (Reduce Person needs a hand free, so you couldn't've had it at the beginning of combat). Too bad, too, because TWD gives +1 even without total defense.

It's also unclear by RAW whether or not a riding dog is a combat steed, although they say it's like a warhorse, so I'd imagine it is. (Otherwise you lose a move-equivalent each round).

Telonius
2007-02-22, 12:44 PM
Oh. Yeah, that's a 3.5ism too, as well.

You want to move the "Cover from mount" to the last round, by the way. Like I said, it's supposed to be done when you're attacked. The SRD isn't clear on that, but the FAQ kindof is.

You also need to draw the second sword during combat (Reduce Person needs a hand free, so you couldn't've had it at the beginning of combat). Too bad, too, because TWD gives +1 even without total defense.

It's also unclear by RAW whether or not a riding dog is a combat steed, although they say it's like a warhorse, so I'd imagine it is. (Otherwise you lose a move-equivalent each round).

Hm, if I use one of my Fighter feats as Quick Draw, that should take care of the movement.

barawn
2007-02-22, 12:50 PM
Hm, if I use one of my Fighter feats as Quick Draw, that should take care of the movement.

Actually, you should buy another sword (3 total), and start off with both swords (so +1 to base defense, through TWD), drop the sword during the first round as a free action, cast Reduce Person, draw the second sword later (to get the +2 total) as another free action. You really don't want to lose that +1 to base defense.

Telonius
2007-02-22, 01:05 PM
Ah, I see what you're getting at - keeping the base AC up. ::goes to fix::

Draz74
2007-02-22, 02:19 PM
You know, if custom items are allowed (madness!), then really, the way to do this would be to make a whole bunch of custom +1 AC items that give random types of bonuses. (+1 sacred bonus to AC, +1 profane bonus to AC, +1 luck bonus to AC, +1 resistance bonus to AC, +1 morale bonus to AC, +1 competence bonus to AC, +1 insight bonus to AC. +7 total.)

Each of these items would only cost 3750 gp. Or 5000 gp if you're out of body slots, or even only 2500 gp if you could argue that the body slot involved is a "natural" body slot for protective items (e.g. Cloak).

Should I assume that this is too munchkinny to be allowed in this contest?

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 03:13 PM
Go for it, Draz. For the record, I consider the following slots to be "natural" slots, while all others are unnatural:

-Cloak, cape, mantle
-Amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, scarab
-Bracers
-Rings

Exceptions: A Phylactory could be used for a Morale bonus AC granting item as a natural slot, and likewise the Eye Lenses/Goggles could be used for an Insight bonus AC granting item as natural.

And go nuts. The item creation rules are there, and the prices are clear in this matter. Just remember that it's more expensive. :P

Edit: And don't forget, you non-armored types... The Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks) is a steal if you've got a decent Wisdom, by granting your Wisdom Bonus to AC in addition to a +1 for being the equivelant of a 5th level Monk. Could be useful, especially since giving yourself a +4 to Wisdom is a lot cheaper than taking a +4 to Dex and making it a +6 of the same bonus type!

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-22, 03:41 PM
Well, the "Core SRD" bit is a fair ruling, I guess. Anti-Illithidite.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 03:49 PM
Nerd-o-Rama: Well, it's easier for me to bookmark a couple pages in the HTML SRD and flip through that than it is to flip through three to four books as I'm verifying each entry. Likewise that's why I'm limiting the races to the ones I specified: I know them like the back of my hand, so I don't have to worry about having Formian Monks (or something equally twinky) dropped on me. So you all fall victim to my laziness.

Though, I've got an even better idea for the next competition... This one revolves around damage.

Telonius
2007-02-22, 03:57 PM
I don't think the Monk's Belt lets you add Wis to your AC, it just gives the wearer the +1 unnamed AC boost that the monk gets at level 5, 10, 15, and 20. (That's why it's "of five levels higher.")

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 04:00 PM
I used to think that as well, but Wizards released a FAQ which clarifies things, and it's mentioned specifically that the Monk's Belt does grant the Wisdom Bonus to AC.

Edit: It also seems pretty clear to me, from the description in the SRD:


If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk.

A 5th level Monk has their Wisdom Bonus and an un-named AC bonus added to their AC when not wearing armor. Same thing applies to a non-monk with this belt.

UglyPanda
2007-02-22, 04:19 PM
Telonius, could you check your figures again? I've got you slightly lower.

Your final stats are:
Dex 26(+8) Int 24(+7) Wis 24 (+7)

Base: 10
Size: +2
Natural: +5
Dex: +8
Int: +7
Wis: +7
Ioun: +1
Bracers: +6
Sword: +2
Cover: +4
Ring (deflection):+3
Total defense: +6
Parry: +7
Feats: +1, +2

71

Also, I think you might need a free hand in order to drop down and hang from the mount, which should negate the two-weapon defense bonus.


You know, if custom items are allowed (madness!), then really, the way to do this would be to make a whole bunch of custom +1 AC items that give random types of bonuses. (+1 sacred bonus to AC, +1 profane bonus to AC, +1 luck bonus to AC, +1 resistance bonus to AC, +1 morale bonus to AC, +1 competence bonus to AC, +1 insight bonus to AC. +7 total.)

Each of these items would only cost 3750 gp. Or 5000 gp if you're out of body slots, or even only 2500 gp if you could argue that the body slot involved is a "natural" body slot for protective items (e.g. Cloak).

Should I assume that this is too munchkinny to be allowed in this contest?

You can't. The SRD & DMG's pricing guidelines only covers enhancement bonuses for ability scores and AC. Bonuses of different types aren't covered in it. If they were, I would've outcheesed you already.

Fractional Cheese!
Rosary of 5000 beads
Cost: 25000 GP
Benefit: +250 to AC (5000 different +.05 bonuses)
Price of a bead: (Enhancement)^2*1000 GP * 2 for being unsloted
(0.05)^2*1000*2=5 GP

Telonius
2007-02-22, 04:33 PM
Ah, you're right; I'd double-counted one of the Int bonuses. Fixed now.

You should need a free hand, but the rules don't say you do. :belkar:

NEO|Phyte
2007-02-22, 04:37 PM
Fractional Cheese!
Rosary of 1000 beads
Cost: 20000 GP
Benefit: +100 to AC (1000 different +.1 bonuses)
Price of a bead: (Enhancement)^2*1000 GP * 2 for being unsloted
(0.1)^2*1000*2=20
Guess what!

...Bonuses round down.

UglyPanda
2007-02-22, 04:43 PM
It was a joke. I know it doesn't work. It's just that 100 unsloted items granting bonuses to AC is cheesy, and your DM wouldn't allow it in real life.

barawn
2007-02-22, 04:46 PM
Telonius, could you check your figures again? I've got you slightly lower.

He double counted the +3 from Headband of Intellect. Wisdom should be 22, not 24, but you neglected the Monk Belt +1 AC.

There's still something missing there, though.


Also, I think you might need a free hand in order to drop down and hang from the mount, which should negate the two-weapon defense bonus.

Not by RAW. You do have stirrups, so you could just twist yourself through your reins or something and sling your leg over the mount. The whole "drop down and hang from mount" bit is mechanically very weird to imagine.

Arceliar
2007-02-22, 04:49 PM
It was a joke. I know it doesn't work. It's just that 100 unsloted items granting bonuses to AC is cheesy, and your DM wouldn't allow it in real life.

You underestimate the untelligence of some DMs.

That's right, I said untelligence.

Telonius
2007-02-22, 04:49 PM
I'd added that in after the Wisdom discussion, and I realized I had 14k lying around doing nothing. I was about to swap out a Monk level for another level of Duelist, but realized I couldn't have made the skill requirement for Duelist without the monk class skills. Whole thing's still in progress.

Winterking
2007-02-22, 06:03 PM
You shouldn't take a Total defense with that build, Telonius. Combat Expertise and fighting defensively gets you a cumulative +8 bonus, and that allows the extra +1 Shield from 2WD. (PHB p.140: Fighting defensively when attacking stacks with the AC bonus granted by Combat Expertise)*

Combat Expertise: +5 Dodge
Fighting Defensively: +3 Dodge (with the Tumble Synergy)
Two-Weapon Defense: additional +1 Shield Bonus
Total: +9 to AC

As opposed to
Total Defense +6 Dodge
Two-Weapon Defense-additional +1 Shield
Total: +7 to AC


*Of course, this sentence does not appear in the SRD, but neither does anything to specifically contradict it. Plus, both are Dodge bonuses, and as such, should stack.

UglyPanda
2007-02-22, 06:29 PM
Hiding under the mount says you can't attack. I think that means you can't fight defensively either.

Flawless
2007-02-22, 06:30 PM
How about this:

svirfneblin monk2, cleric1, swordsage2, sacred fist 7

st12, dex20, con10 , int 8, wis23, cha4

items:
periapt of wisdom +6 (36.000gp)
tome of understanding +3 (82.500gp)
mithril chainshirt +5 (26.500gp)
ring of protection +3 (18.0000gp)
vest of natural armour +3 (18.0000gp)
ring of force shield (8.500gp)
armour spikes +1, defending (8.500gp)
igloves of dexterity +2 (8.000gp)

armour class:
10 (base) + 22 (twice wis-mod) + 6 (dex) + 1 (size) + 4 (svirfneblin dodge) + 9 (armour) + 3 (deflection) + 3 (natural) + 2 (shield) + 2 (defending) + 2 (insight) + 2 (sacred fist) ==> 66

He uses greater magic weapon on his armour spikes to make them +2 and is in the stance of clarity which grants him a +2 insight bonus to AC.


I know it's not core, but the monk/duellist builds have already been mentioned.

Has anyone any ideas about how to make such a svirfneblin monk thing still harder to hit?

barawn
2007-02-22, 06:34 PM
Note that a 20th level Oil of Greater Magic Weapon (+5) is just 3k...

Winterking
2007-02-22, 07:09 PM
I think this works...

Halfing Ranger 6/Duelist 9
base stats: Str 8 Dex 20 (15+2 racial+3 level) Con 6 (8-2racial) Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 8

Ability enhancements:
Gloves of Dex +6 (36kgp)=26 +8 AC
Headband of Int +6 (36kgp)=22 [Canny defense] +6 AC
Owl's Wisdom +4 Wis (*)=20

Monk's Belt (13kgp) [+1, Wis +5] +6 AC
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (5kgp) +1AC
Bracers of Armor +6 (36kgp) +6 AC

Barkskin +5 (potion; 1.2kgp) +5 AC
Shield of Faith +5 (potion; .9kgp) +5 AC
Reduce Person (*) [+1 Dex, +1 Size] +2 AC
Haste (*) +1 AC

+3 Defending Rapier (33kgp) +3AC
+4 Ring of Protection (2kgp) +4 AC
Another Rapier: negligible cost

Dodge: +1 AC
Combat Expertise +5 AC
Two-weapon defense: +2 AC (when fighting defensively)
Fighting Defensively: +3 AC (5 ranks in Tumble-Synergy)
Elaborate Parry: +9 AC

Riding dog-animal companion.
18 ranks in ride, use dog as cover: +4 AC

*One Feat is Leadership--with Lvl 15, Cha 8, the cohort is max L10. During the 3 rounds before combat, the ranger/duelist drinks potions of barkskin, shield of faith; and draws both weapons/names dodge target, uses mount for cover. The L10 Cohort, a wizard, casts Haste, Reduce Person, and Owl's Wisdom.

Totals:
81 AC

77 AC (if a cohort can't cast spells at the same time as character drinks potions--I don't remember whether they can or not--in which case only the Owl's Wisdom is cast, in round 3 while the halfling is drawing weapons).

Necessary Skills: Perform (at least 3) Tumble (at least 5) Ride (at least 15).

Feats Include: (1)Dodge (2-ranger) Two Weapon Fighting (3)Finesse (6) Mobility (9) Combat Expertise (12) Leadership (15)Two-Weapon Defense

Draz74
2007-02-22, 07:27 PM
OK, here comes the cheese.

I'm using custom items (in italics) liberally, as LankyBugger permitted explicitly. With body slot affinities that he also approved.

I claim that multiple Defending weapons do indeed stack, because the entry for a Defending weapon says that it "stacks with all other bonuses".

I'm using Ride cheese -- why not?

Unlike all the entries so far -- as far as I've noticed -- I've ignored Monk's AC bonuses and Canny Defense and high Dex and just gone ahead and used armor and shield.

I also don't see why you can't have a Potion of Alter Self (with the target creature type already selected), even though it's not listed in the tables in the SRD, so I went ahead and bought one. Even if its cost should be higher than 300 gp for some reason, I've got a couple thousand gp to spare.

I also payed for an NPC wizard to cast Permenancy on my Reduce Person potion effect. That cost is reflected in my equipment cost total.

While this character is obviously not optimal, it isn't completely worthless either.

Here goes: Gurruck
LN Dwarf Rogue 1 / Fighter 6 / Duelist 7 / Dwarven Defender 1 (levels are all shown in order that they were taken)

His stats are:
Strength - 16 (14, +2 ability boosts, +2 enhancement, -2 size)
Dexterity - 18 (15, +1 ability boost, +2 size)
Constitution - 12 (10, +2 racial)
Intelligence - 14
Wisdom - 14
Charisma - 6 (8, -2 racial)

Feats: (1) Toughness, (Fighter 1) Dodge, (3) Endurance, (Fighter 2) Combat Expertise, (Fighter 4) Mobility, (6) Weapon Finesse, (Fighter 6) Improved Trip, (9) Combat Reflexes, (12) Power Attack, (15) Iron Will

Skills: Gurruck has 4 ranks in Perform at Level 1. He has 5 ranks in Tumble by level 3, thanks to the boost his Rogue level gave him. He has Ride maxxed out from 2nd level onwards (paying double for cross-class ranks when necessary). He also uses his Fighter levels to get good Handle Animal ranks (so he can train his mount) and all his other levels to get excellent Spot and Sense Motive checks (not that these matter in this contest).

Equipment: mithral full plate mail (10500) with +2 Defending Armor Spikes (18350), masterwork tower shield (180), Oil of +5 Magic Vestment [x2] (6000 total, yes it's in the SRD), +2 Defending Guisarme (18309), +4 Ring of Protection (32000), +4 Amulet of Natural Armor (32000), +2 Phylactery of Defensive Morale (10000), +2 Goggles of Defensive Insight (10000), +2 Cloak of Resistance to Physical Attacks (10000), +2 Ring of Defensive Luck (10000), +2 Bracers of Defensive Sanctity (10000), +2 Belt of Defensive Profanity (15000), +2 Vest of Defensive Competence (15000), +5 Boots of Riding (2500), Gauntlets of Ogre Power (4000), Potion of Reduce Person (250), Potion of Alter Self [Troglodyte] (300), warpony (100), military saddle (20)

Total cost of equipment: 197459 gp

The following actions have been performed beforehand, but their duration is long enough (or indefinite) that they count for Base AC, not just Final AC:

Drink Potion of Reduce Person and have a spellcaster make it Permenant. (The cost of this service, 2950, is included in the total cost above.)
Apply Oil of Magic Vestment to armor and shield. (This oil, at this caster level, lasts 20 hours.)
Switch Weapons of Defending to apply all of their enhancement bonus to AC. (This lasts indefinitely unless the weapons are put away.)

The following actions can be performed during the 3 granted rounds prior to combat:

Drink Potion of Alter Self [Troglodyte] to turn into a Troglodyte shape.
Select target of Dodge feat. (I don't know if this even counts in the total, since it only works against one opponent. I won't count it in my total below.)
Enter a Defensive Stance.
Enter combat fighting defensively, and using Combat Expertise to its fullest.
When attacked, use Ride to take cover from the warpony you are riding. (Riding a pony in a Defensive Stance is a funny image ...:smallbiggrin:) The DC 15 Ride check should be passed automatically.

Base AC Result: 10 (base) + 2 (Dex) + 13 (armor) + 9 (shield) + 4 (Defending weapons) + 4 (deflection) + 4 (enhancement to natural armor) + 2 (morale) + 2 (insight) + 2 (resistance) + 2 (luck) + 2 (sacred) + 2 (profane) + 2 (competence) + 1 (dodge due to Dwarven Defender class feature) + 1 (size)

Base AC Subtotal: 62

Final AC Result: 62 (Base AC) + 6 (natural armor) + 4 (dodge due to Defensive Stance) + 10 (dodge due to fighting defensively, plus 5 ranks of Tumble, plus Elaborate Parry) + 4 (cover)

Final AC Subtotal: 86

Final result (averaging these two): 74

silentknight
2007-02-22, 07:38 PM
You can use defensive stance while riding a pony? But you're not standing.

And if you tell me that, yes, you can, just be aware that my brain will more than likely explode rather than trying to figure THAT out. Do you really want that on your conscience?

UglyPanda
2007-02-22, 08:01 PM
I think this works...
...
Halfing Ranger 6/Duelist 9
...
+4 Ring of Protection (2kgp) +4 AC
...


Tumble is cross-class for ranger. You need another level of ranger before you can become a duelist.

Ring of protection and shield of faith are both deflection bonuses, they don't stack.

On an unrelated note, shouldn't thrallherd be banned from the psionics competition? Over 135 guys assisting you seems cheap.
Actually, leadership seems kinda cheap too. You could end up getting more AC by getting bigger. Seriously, more size means more allies who are within a range to reasonably assist you.

greenknight
2007-02-22, 08:06 PM
When attacked, use Ride to take cover from the warpony you are riding.

I'm not 100% certain of this, but wouldn't using Ride to take cover qualify as shifting his position, ending Defensive Stance?

Arbitrarity
2007-02-22, 08:51 PM
Hmm, with superiour expertise, my temp AC would then be 79, and with ride cheese, 83.

For average 63 :(. Ah well.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 08:58 PM
Draz: I'm not going to allow Defensive Stance with the Ride bonus, and you'll have to give up the the two-handed weapon you're wielding, which would get rid of that defending bonus. It's one or the other, Draz... Though you've done an excellent job with the customized items.

Defending items DO stack because it does mention it specifically in the description, though I'd rule you'd have to be using them. In this case, yes, the armored spikes count.

Just a suggestion, but I'd drop the Ride cheese and focus more on the defensive stance. I'm sure you can squeeze another bonus somewhere.

Winterking: As UglyPanda mentioned, you'd need to be a Level 7 Ranger before you could get Tumble up to the required amount. A Level 6 Ranger only has 4.5 ranks in Tumble, which is not the required 5 ranks for
Duelist. Otherwise, it's a good build.

barawn
2007-02-22, 08:59 PM
Drink Potion of Reduce Person and have a spellcaster make it Permenant. (The cost of this service, 2950, is included in the total cost above.)


... followed by...


Drink Potion of Alter Self [Troglodyte] to turn into a Troglodyte shape.

Congratulations! You just undid your Potion of Reduce Person, considering a Troglodyte is a Medium creature.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 09:15 PM
Congratulations! You just undid your Potion of Reduce Person, considering a Troglodyte is a Medium creature.

Good call, barawn. I hadn't noticed that.

Winterking
2007-02-22, 09:20 PM
Re: Lankybugger, Uglypanda:
Thanks for catching that. So it's a Ranger 7/Duelist 8, which has a net effect of reducing Elaborate Parry by...1. Total ACs of 80 or 76 (if the Cohort-casting doesn't fly)

And that's without the extra-cheese option someone suggested of having 2+ Level 1 Fighter-mooks (acquired through Leadership), all making Aid Another attacks for +2 AC each. (2 being the minimum--one on either side of me)

Edit: Hmm. I guess shield of faith and the ring would cancel each other. Probably end up using some combo of self-made items (like the amazing ones Draz created) instead of the 32kgp ring.
That, or I'd grab a second +3 defending rapier and argue that it counts too, since the SRD says:

A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others.(italics mine)

Draz74
2007-02-22, 09:53 PM
I'm not 100% certain of this, but wouldn't using Ride to take cover qualify as shifting his position, ending Defensive Stance?


Well, if I were DM, I would certainly prohibit it. But I don't see anything in RAW that would prohibit it. Because nothing says you can't move at all in a Defensive Stance (you get Dodge bonuses, and you can attack). You just can't move from your 5-foot square. And as long as your mount isn't moving, you can Ride the mount without moving from your 5-foot square.

Up to the DM, I suppose. (And if I were DM, I'd also ban most of those custom items that I used. :smallconfused:)


Congratulations! You just undid your Potion of Reduce Person, considering a Troglodyte is a Medium creature.I thought of that, but I figured that magic effects (that don't directly replace each other) don't depend on what order they are cast. So I thought Reduce Person then Alter Self (remaining Humanoid) would leave you with a Reduced Troglodyte. If this isn't true, then what does happen? Does the Reduce Person spell get suppressed, then return when the Alter Self duration runs out?

I will need to edit my entry to fix the Ride/Stance cheese combo. And add Leadership cheese (for the Haste spell, at least), if it is actually allowed.


and you'll have to give up the the two-handed weapon you're wielding, which would get rid of that defending bonus.

Yeah, that was just stupid on my part -- was forgetting that it was a two-handed weapon. I realized that one almost as soon as I posted. Fortunately, it's easy to change the Guisarme to a Dwarven Waraxe or something, and then my AC is just as good as before.


Just a suggestion, but I'd drop the Ride cheese and focus more on the defensive stance. I'm sure you can squeeze another bonus somewhere.

I doubt it. Ride wasn't really using up any significant resources, so if I give it up, it doesn't really give me any significant resources to spend on something else.

For the record, making up custom items wasn't all that hard.

barawn
2007-02-22, 09:53 PM
And that's without the extra-cheese option someone suggested of having 2+ Level 1 Fighter-mooks (acquired through Leadership), all making Aid Another attacks for +2 AC each. (2 being the minimum--one on either side of me)

One on either side of your opponent. They have to threaten the character threatening you, and then they'd still have to hit AC 10, which, for a Level 1 Fighter, is not guaranteed. Maximum number would obviously be three. I'd say any action which "might" increase your AC, but doesn't, wouldn't count.

I'm still waiting for someone to read the text of Barkskin closer. :smallsmile:

barawn
2007-02-22, 09:54 PM
Because nothing says you can't move at all in a Defensive Stance

Yes it does.


While in a defensive stance, a defender cannot use skills or abilities that would require him to shift his position.

Depends on your definition of "shift his position". I would say "falling down on one side of a mount" is shifting position.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 09:55 PM
Entirely valid options, Winterking. Though the cohort casting DOES count. Hell, if you can find that cohort some spells which last for longer than 1/hour per level and stack with everything you've got already, you can work on your base AC as well.

And the Fighter-Mooks WOULD count, but only towards Final AC and not Base AC (because THEY'D have to be doing something).

Though, before people start down the cohort cheese route... 2 cohort maximum, guys

UglyPanda
2007-02-22, 10:01 PM
What about followers? I'm also tempted to use the nanobots I've seen on the WotC optimization board.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-22, 10:13 PM
2 cohorts/followers. :smalltongue:

Winterking
2007-02-22, 10:27 PM
Barawn:
Where X is the enemy, Y is me, and the [ ] represent 5-foot squares on a battlemat/similar gridded surface:
[ ][ ][ ]
[ ][X][ ]
[ ][Y][ ]

There are here 7 spaces in which followers could stand to attack X--the 4 corners, one space behind X, two on either side of X, and two on either side of me. Keeping it at two, the simplest would place them on either side of me. But they could go elsewhere, too.

As far as Barkskin goes, the SRD says:

Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.

nivek1234
2007-02-22, 11:07 PM
A break from the norm... a single class build

Halfling Monk 15

Str 6 (8-2)
Dex 18 (16 + 2)
Con 9
Int 14
Wis 17 (+3 from levels) 20
Cha 8

Feats:
Dodge
Mobility
Combat Expertise
Whatever else

Skills
Max Tumble
Whatever else

Items:
Bracers of Armor +8 (64k) [armor bonus]
Amulet of Natural Armor +4 (32k) [natural armor bonus]
Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16k)
Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16k)
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (5k)
Ring of Protection +5 (50k) [deflection bonus]

Total cost so far 183k

Stats after equipment:
Dex 22 (+6)
Wis 24 (+7)

10 + 1 (size) + 6 (dex) + 7 (wis) + 8 (armor) + 4 (natural) + 5 (deflection) + 1 (Ioun Stone) + 3 (monk levels)
= 45

Round 1: Drink Potion of Barkskin +5 (cost 1.2k)
Round 2: Drink Potion of Cat's Grace +4
Round 3: Drink Potion of Owl's Wisdom +4
Declare Target for dodge
Fight defensively using combat experise (+5 from feat and +3 from tumble synergy)

Total cost of potions < 17k, so within wealth range

Additional armor = 5 (Barkskin)+ 2 (Cat's Grace) + 2 (Owl's Wisdom) + 1 (dodge) + 8 (combat expertise and tumble)
Final armor = 63

barawn
2007-02-22, 11:15 PM
As far as Barkskin goes, the SRD says:

Sigh. You're taking all the fun out of it (I really wish I had the time to work one out, but I don't).

The point was: Alter Self's natural armor and Barkskin stack.

Telonius
2007-02-23, 09:48 AM
You shouldn't take a Total defense with that build, Telonius. Combat Expertise and fighting defensively gets you a cumulative +8 bonus, and that allows the extra +1 Shield from 2WD. (PHB p.140: Fighting defensively when attacking stacks with the AC bonus granted by Combat Expertise)*

Combat Expertise: +5 Dodge
Fighting Defensively: +3 Dodge (with the Tumble Synergy)
Two-Weapon Defense: additional +1 Shield Bonus
Total: +9 to AC

As opposed to
Total Defense +6 Dodge
Two-Weapon Defense-additional +1 Shield
Total: +7 to AC


*Of course, this sentence does not appear in the SRD, but neither does anything to specifically contradict it. Plus, both are Dodge bonuses, and as such, should stack.

Actually the build depends on Full Defense, or I would have only taken a couple levels of Duelist and used the money from the Headband of Intellect for something else. The Duelist's "Elaborate Parry" grants +1 Dodge to AC for every level of Duelist - but only when using full defense. So that's a total of +14 Dodge to AC, rather than +9.

Douglas
2007-02-23, 10:15 AM
Full defense is not required for Elaborate Parry, fighting defensively works too.

Telonius
2007-02-23, 10:23 AM
Yes, but for it to work there has to be something you're attacking.
SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fightingDefensivelyasaStandard Action):


Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action

You can choose to fight defensively when attacking.
(Emphasis added). You can't fight defensively against nothing.

Although I could attack the sword I just dropped...?

Douglas
2007-02-23, 10:30 AM
Attack the darkness :smallbiggrin:

Worst case, buy some livestock and attack them. However, there is a hypothetical enemy for this exercise, so attacking defensively with expertise will count for final AC at least. If the DM agrees with my reasoning, it would also count for base AC because it can be activated for free on your first turn of actual combat and is always available for an unlimited duration of combat.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-23, 10:33 AM
Douglas: It wouldn't be BASE AC because Tel still has to take an action (even if it is, in theory, instant) to get the benefit. Though the livestock WOULD be a good idea...

Telonius, you've still got that pony, right?

Telonius
2007-02-23, 10:55 AM
Yeah, but if I kill it, does it still give me cover?:smallbiggrin:

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-23, 11:12 AM
Who says you've got to kill it? Clubbing it with the blunt end of your weapon for non-lethal damage would still count as an attack. ;)

Telonius
2007-02-23, 11:26 AM
Ahh yes, and if I'm already reduced, that probably won't hurt very much. Actually, come to think of it, I could just use a dagger instead of a sword as my second mundane weapon. So, Combat Expertise as a Fighter Feat, use all 5, the AC bumps up by two, and my mount is slightly annoyed at me.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-23, 09:30 PM
Works for me...

Armads
2007-02-23, 10:04 PM
Since custom items are allowed, are ioun stones of Dodge +1 (5000 gp) too cheesy?

Collin152
2007-02-23, 10:10 PM
IF the rules were not so stiff I'd be going with a Vampire Troglodyte Monk...

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-23, 10:54 PM
Sorry, Armads...



Dodge Bonus

A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#armorClass) (and sometimes Reflex saves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex)) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#touchAttacks).

Important bit is highlighted. No Dodge bonuses due to magic or spells.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-25, 06:27 PM
*prodded*

Any other builds, ladies and gentlemen? I'm sure more people are going to enter!