[3.5] Party too strong?

[bendking]

Basically, I'm asking this on behalf of my DM:
My DM doesn't exactly go "by-the-book" when it comes to Wealth by Level and dispensing magic items, nor does he let us buy them (We're level 3 and all in all we only have one magical greatsword and a few (steel) masterwork weapons), his reasoning is that we're already too strong for our levels, so he doesn't want to make us any more powerful yet.
How do we deal with this situation while maintaining the fun of getting magic items and actually getting to spend our money on stuff?

[Beardbarian]

If you don't give us more informations we can't help you.
At first glance seems the tipical DM who can't min-max and even balance encounters. How many years of experience does he have?

[Stella]

Basically, I'm asking this on behalf of my DM:
My DM doesn't exactly go "by-the-book" when it comes to Wealth by Level and dispensing magic items, nor does he let us buy them (We're level 3 and all in all we only have one magical greatsword and a few (steel) masterwork weapons), his reasoning is that we're already too strong for our levels, so he doesn't want to make us any more powerful yet.Talk calmly to your DM. She appears to want to have a low magic campaign, and there is noting wrong with that. So long as they understand the ramifications of their decision, that is.

Discuss the Tier system with her. Scribe Scroll is a Feat granted at 1st level to all Wizards. And if it isn't balanced by magic items obtained by all the other players, they will only fall farther and farther behind the Wizard who uses their Scribe Scroll class ability intelligently.

How do we deal with this situation while maintaining the fun of getting magic items and actually getting to spend our money on stuff?Ask. Ask the DM how you can convert gold into magic items. Come up with story telling ways which support your obtaining of the magic items you want with the magic items you have which might be less than useful for you. And ask as a group, so that you aren't "that gal" who is the pain in the DMs buttocks.

At level 3 buying simple and non-magical items such as Thunderstones and Tanglefoot Bags is a smart move. They offer great utility against both melee opponents and casters.

[LordBlades]

Talk calmly to your DM. She appears to want to have a low magic campaign, and there is noting wrong with that. So long as they understand the ramifications of their decision, that is.

While there's nothing wrong with running a low-magic campaign, doing so without warning the players beforehand isn't very nice to them.

[bendking]

So what would you say are reasonable utility low price magic items that would be useful?

[Jeff the Green]

While there's nothing wrong with running a low-magic campaign, doing so without warning the players beforehand isn't very nice to them.

If the DM can't challenge their players with full WBL, they probably shouldn't be running a low-magic campaign.

The problem is that the CR system assumes you have magic items. Flight increases CR significantly in the lower ranges (because they're difficult to kill when you can't fly yourself), but not at all in the upper (because it's assumed that you have some form of flight). Similarly for death effects, touch attacks, and other attacks that can be protected against with items. Also, save DCs and monster saves increase faster than your saves and your save DCs because the CR system assumes you have magic items boosting your casting stat and your saves.

If you can't judge what creatures you can send at your players to challenge them with WBL, you're going to have an even harder time judging what you can send at your players without TPKing them without WBL.

Edit:

So what would you say are reasonable utility low price magic items that would be useful?

To start with, a wand or two (paid for by all) for healing; either CLW or lesser vigor. Cloaks of resistance. Scrolls of situational spells. Chronocharms. A rust monster wand. Shapesand. Vestment of Many Styles.

There are more, but they depend on what classes your party has.

[Stella]

While there's nothing wrong with running a low-magic campaign, doing so without warning the players beforehand isn't very nice to them.The simple fact of the matter is that a lot of DMs have preconceived notions of how they anticipate their game campaign going without even thinking that they might impact "standard" game play. So it's not a matter of "warning" the players beforehand as it is is simple communication issue between the DM and the players.

Which has the best chance of being resolved via the advice I gave: Talk to the the DM.

[Jeff the Green]

The simple fact of the matter is that a lot of DMs have preconceived notions of how they anticipate their game campaign going without even thinking that they might impact "standard" game play. So it's not a matter of "warning" the players beforehand as it is is simple communication issue between the DM and the players.

Which has the best chance of being resolved via the advice I gave: Talk to the the DM.

Absolutely talking to the DM is the best choice. However, low magic/low wealth is emphatically not standard D&D. When there are tables for what you should get from each encounter and how much you should have at a given level, it's a hint big giant sign to the DM that if you want to not give your players treasure you're probably not starting from the same point as most other players and you should have a talk.

[bendking]

The simple fact of the matter is that a lot of DMs have preconceived notions of how they anticipate their game campaign going without even thinking that they might impact "standard" game play. So it's not a matter of "warning" the players beforehand as it is is simple communication issue between the DM and the players.

Which has the best chance of being resolved via the advice I gave: Talk to the the DM.

I've talked with my DM already, he said he'll let us buy magic items that cost up to 2,000 GP in the big cities, and that he'll go from there and see how things develop.

[Balor01]

@OP

Stop whining and think about what you are saying. Someone is investing time to DM for you. Be glad someone does it.

What ungrateful mob of whining munchkins players are.

[bendking]

@OP

Stop whining and think about what you are saying. Someone is investing time to DM for you. Be glad someone does it.

What ungrateful mob of whining munchkins players are.

I am also a DM myself, actually, and I would gladly accept critisism from my players if that means they will enjoy their game more.
It seems like you yourself had personal issues regarding this, so I wouldn't expect you to have a very objective opinion about this.

[nedz]

Your equipment doesn't sound too far off the mark for level 3, the flaw is in your DM's reasoning.

A big part of the game is aspirational character development — where the players look forward to gaining levels, feats and better equipment — and you are being told you can't have any more gear because you are too powerful. Even if this were to be true, the DM should not have given you this as an explanation because it is non-aspirational.

[John Longarrow]

bendking
3rd level characters should have about 2700gp each. One player having a magic blade sounds about right. Normal 4 person party should have the melee-centric character with a magic weapon and the rest with other items.

Only being able to buy magic items upto 2000gp in "big cities" sounds off though. I'd check with the DM to see if they are planning for your party to make their own gear. That will directly impact your feat selection. Having DMed for a long time, I know that different styles of play lead to some very different builds. If the DM is planning for your characters to become the "Big Dogs" at around 6th level, expect to make your own higher quality gear. If the DM has dozens of higher level characters running around you should be able to buy gear based off of the guidelines in DMG or DMG2.

[weckar]

Honestly, I can see both sides here. Maybe a few minor magic items would help for the players sense of gratification, but in my experience players who get full WBL (especially early on) will steamroll any enouncter up to nearly double the appropriate CR.

[Mnemnosyne]

If after talking to your DM things don't change sufficiently, and you also don't want to leave the game because the game is otherwise fun and interesting, you can also deal with it in-character. Take item crafting feats, or ideally, have someone reroll into an Artificer. Now make your own items. If the DM doesn't provide enough loot to do so, start changing your characters' behavior. Refuse to do any questing unless it's very certain you're going to get heavily rewarded for it. Since acquiring wealth is so difficult for your characters, it reasonably becomes the main in-character focus for them. Entirely through logical and reasonable roleplay, you can focus your characters and your entire campaign on making money, since it appears to be the only way to gain the items your characters want and need.

Alternately, roll up some easy-bake wizards and druids that aren't reliant on money.

[bendking]

bendking
3rd level characters should have about 2700gp each. One player having a magic blade sounds about right. Normal 4 person party should have the melee-centric character with a magic weapon and the rest with other items.

Only being able to buy magic items upto 2000gp in "big cities" sounds off though. I'd check with the DM to see if they are planning for your party to make their own gear. That will directly impact your feat selection. Having DMed for a long time, I know that different styles of play lead to some very different builds. If the DM is planning for your characters to become the "Big Dogs" at around 6th level, expect to make your own higher quality gear. If the DM has dozens of higher level characters running around you should be able to buy gear based off of the guidelines in DMG or DMG2.

Me and my DM are good friends, so we're sort of trying to figure this out together.
My DM isn't really planning on letting us buying expensive items (2000gp and below) nor does it seems that he aims for us to build them, the way I figure it will happen is that eventualy he'll see the CR 7-8 would kick our party around because CR takes into account that the party should have magic items, while in the lower levels it doesn't neccesarily.

[Otodetu]

Me and my DM are good friends, so we're sort of trying to figure this out together.
My DM isn't really planning on letting us buying expensive items (2000gp and below) nor does it seems that he aims for us to build them, the way I figure it will happen is that eventualy he'll see the CR 7-8 would kick our party around because CR takes into account that the party should have magic items, while in the lower levels it doesn't neccesarily.

I have to say that "you are to strong" is a bad argument to use. It would be better to explain to you, the players, that the level of wealth in the area is not to great, or that there are few people capable of making magic items.

Restricting wealth in an artificial way is a great way to break immersion.



If the dm feels your level 3 party is to strong, then it all boils down to situations, if the players fight unprepared monsters\npc's they will have an easy time.
Now on the other hand if they face enemies that use terrain to their advantage, hand picked feats and decent cheap mundane gear they will find that combat is a struggle.

CR is hard to calculate and depends on the experience of both the dm and the players, with a dm strong at system mastery crafting npc's by hand most parties will face a TPK in short order no matter what % their wealth lies at.

With a group of hot-shot players making strong characters capable of working together standard monster manual challenges lining up in rooms will be a breeze.

[John Longarrow]

Me and my DM are good friends, so we're sort of trying to figure this out together.
My DM isn't really planning on letting us buying expensive items (2000gp and below) nor does it seems that he aims for us to build them, the way I figure it will happen is that eventualy he'll see the CR 7-8 would kick our party around because CR takes into account that the party should have magic items, while in the lower levels it doesn't neccesarily.

Down side for low level fights is they tend to be very short if it is a group on a single monster. Most DMs will, by default, use ONE monster VS party. I've seen ogres go down to a lvl 3 party without getting to swing.
I've also seen a group of goblins dealing with a 4th level party. The fight wasn't a cake walk for the party (tank got hit with two crits from Heavy Crossbows before they got into melee) and was really interesting even though half the goblins were commoners with knives. One of the "non-combatant type" goblins dueled the party Monk to a standstill for 5 rounds. Also got first blood...

When talking to your friend, suggest he use numbers rather than "Harder" fights. This should help avoid a TPK without making the party feel "Too strong". It should also let him see why access to assorted magic goodies even at lower levels isn't too bad. Most people will remember the exceptions that don't go the way they thought rather than the average. As such, your DM is probably remembering how, when your tank crit with that magic greatsword he dropped the high CR gargoyle with one hit. He's probably not remembering the 7 fights where you rolled crappy and didn't do all that hot.

[lytokk]

I think that having 1 magic weapon at level 3 for a party of 4 while everyone else has masterwork is pretty reasonable. Sure, its a little on the low end, but its not too far off for where I shoot in my games. Though, there's often already been scrolls, potions, and other consumables used in the game, maybe a wand.

In your opening, you said

his reasoning is that we're already too strong for our levels, so he doesn't want to make us any more powerful yet.

Emphasis mine. There may be more coming, but he wants to keep it a little more challenging at the lower levels and beef you up a bit more the higher you get. I'm not sure on anyones motivations, just a guess.

[Chaosvii7]

Would it be okay to ask what your party consists of? If the party's composition is solidly tier 1 across the board then restricting WBL might make sense approaching CR 8+, but everybody's on an even playing field at ECL 3. Wizards can't hit but they have the low-level crowd control, clerics and druids have utility(with each going slightly different directions), and your fighters and rogues should be able to do good damage at this level, especially if you've a fighter with that greatsword. But it does seem odd that the DM would restrict your wealth, unless he was trying to lessen the blow caused by picking classes of radically different tiers.

[bendking]

Would it be okay to ask what your party consists of? If the party's composition is solidly tier 1 across the board then restricting WBL might make sense approaching CR 8+, but everybody's on an even playing field at ECL 3. Wizards can't hit but they have the low-level crowd control, clerics and druids have utility(with each going slightly different directions), and your fighters and rogues should be able to do good damage at this level, especially if you've a fighter with that greatsword. But it does seem odd that the DM would restrict your wealth, unless he was trying to lessen the blow caused by picking classes of radically different tiers.

We have a Sorcerer, Cleric, Ranger, And Fighter (Sometimes two fighters).

[NichG]

The elephant in the room here is that the DM feels you are too powerful for him to reasonably challenge, at Lv3. So if you figure out how to address that first, then the item thing should follow naturally.

The answer might be something like 'everyone play T3 characters' or 'I'm going to up the CRs of everything by 2 without giving more XP' or 'monsters will have max HP and use PC point buy arrays rather than the standard array' or whatever, but basically if you want the DM to feel comfortable with you guys getting lots of magic loot when he's already feeling overwhelmed, you have to figure out how to make him not feel overwhelmed.