A lich without any spellcasting

[lytokk]

So, I was doing a bit of reading the other day for potential plotpoints for the campaign I'm running. I had been toying with an idea of a evil wizard (or sorc, hadn't decided yet but most likely wizard) adventuring with a group of heroes only to further his goals, and stab them in the back when he got all he needed from them, as a final big bad boss. His goals being attaining lichdom. Granted, all of that adventuring hapenned over 1000 years previous to the current storyline my players are in.
Long story summed up, he casts a disjunction spell to remove all of the knight hero's magic items, but unknown to him, one of the items was actually an artifact, which while he's lucky in disjunctioning, isn't so lucky with his will save and loses all of his spellcasting powers, which can never return. Now, that knight kills him, and he regens at his phylactery, which is sealed in a tomb that needs magic to open. Since he can no longer cast spells, he's stuck. Also assuming he never incurred the wrath of any god.
He's got over 1000 years to play with, sealed in a tomb, what can he do with himself? If he spent that time, what could he retrain himself into, since he'll no longer have any spellcasting ability? I'd think he should be able to do something, just not sure what. Besides obviously going completely insane.

[atemu1234]

If you want a non-spellcaster lich, go with the Death Knight. It works better.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Note: Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device.

Destroying the artifact could have attracted the attention of a deity who had an interest in getting rid of it, who was grateful and rewarded the lich, or may have been jealous because he wanted to destroy/corrupt the artifact himself.

[Gildedragon]

So, I was doing a bit of reading the other day for potential plotpoints for the campaign I'm running. I had been toying with an idea of a evil wizard (or sorc, hadn't decided yet but most likely wizard) adventuring with a group of heroes only to further his goals, and stab them in the back when he got all he needed from them, as a final big bad boss. His goals being attaining lichdom. Granted, all of that adventuring hapenned over 1000 years previous to the current storyline my players are in.
Long story summed up, he casts a disjunction spell to remove all of the knight hero's magic items, but unknown to him, one of the items was actually an artifact, which while he's lucky in disjunctioning, isn't so lucky with his will save and loses all of his spellcasting powers, which can never return. Now, that knight kills him, and he regens at his phylactery, which is sealed in a tomb that needs magic to open. Since he can no longer cast spells, he's stuck. Also assuming he never incurred the wrath of any god.
He's got over 1000 years to play with, sealed in a tomb, what can he do with himself? If he spent that time, what could he retrain himself into, since he'll no longer have any spellcasting ability? I'd think he should be able to do something, just not sure what. Besides obviously going completely insane.

Makes a pact with unknown powers, becomes a Warlock or a Binder or an artificer. Slowly jury rigs a device out of rock and runes and bits of bone (if the damage kills him he reforms) to emulate magic. Takes a while but eventually breaks free. Completely nuts (even for a lich) as this probably took a couple centuries of constantly breaking up and suing bone shards to make items.
Several levels higher because, well, even though retraining takes XP, the CR of the cage is very high. The CR of crafting the trinket is quite high.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Another idea, Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) don't require any spellcasting ability, only Knowledge and Spellcraft checks. With enough ranks in those skills, he could have developed many incantations through trial and error, and possibly contacted some terrible outside force to aid him. Or he could have just made an incantation that converted his spellcasting levels into another specific class (Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage or Psion/Wilder/Ardent depending on his stats), which would have given him the means (Mountain Hammer ignores hardness) of leaving the tomb.

[weckar]

Another idea, Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) don't require any spellcasting ability, only Knowledge and Spellcraft checks. With enough ranks in those skills, he could have developed many incantations through trial and error, and possibly contacted some terrible outside force to aid him. Or he could have just made an incantation that converted his spellcasting levels into another specific class (Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage or Psion/Wilder/Ardent depending on his stats), which would have given him the means (Mountain Hammer ignores hardness) of leaving the tomb.Are incantations your reference of the day, B_F?

[Madara]

Could he still research spells? He only lost the ability to cast spells, not to learn them. So perhaps he's been creating powerful new magics only to find himself unable to cast them.

[lytokk]

So incantations will cover the How of the change, but the into what I'm not sure of. I know that there won't be any divine/damned help coming for him due to circumstances, and warlock is too close to actual casting. Binder might work, but I'll have to find a decent guide for them since I've never seen one before.

Since the lich will have started out in epic levels, I really needed a good way to power him down for the party to fight, as I estimate they'll be ECL 10-12, so I don't need the most powerful option, just something fitting.


Could he still research spells? He only lost the ability to cast spells, not to learn them. So perhaps he's been creating powerful new magics only to find himself unable to cast them.

The spell states permanently loses all spellcasting abilities, and these can't be recovered by any mortal magic, even miracle or wish, so I don't think there's a lot he can do as an epic level lich who lost all spellcasting ability. I take this to mean he can't use wands, scrolls, or any magic item that requires spellcasting ability or a UMD check.

[Gildedragon]

UMD isn't spellcasting ability; rogues have no casting ability but can use UMD. Heck even Karsites (who have inborn magical inability) can use wands and scrolls via UMD

Artificer or Binder or Warlock are all explicitly non-spellcasters.
They are magical abilities, but not casting, not in the least. The latter two are (relatively) tame compared to an epic spellcaster, so they might work.

alternatively: Truenamer
Much much tamer than an epic spellcaster, but also not spellcasting, and has good flavor. Gates themself out of the prison. Has been driven completely nutwhackers by trying to use truespeech properly.

The insanity can be a good way to reduce the CR. Play fetch with it with a scroll, or a word riddle (esp if truenamer). A paradox to leave the lich contemplating in the field for weeks...

[lytokk]

I meant that any device that required UMD he couldn't use a a normal wizard could (at least with arcane spells) since he no longer had spellcasting ability. He would need to make a UMD check, which wizards would never put skill points into, most likely. So no wands, scrolls, or anything of that nature.

[lytokk]

I'm going to look into Truenamer, since it might be useful here. Only problem is, I have no clue how to even make that mess function... Someone made a guidebook for it right?

[A Tad Insane]

I'm going to look into Truenamer, since it might be useful here. Only problem is, I have no clue how to even make that mess function... Someone made a guidebook for it right?

But that's the point! He's still epic, but now using the (arguably) worst class in the game, so he would be balanced for a 10-12 level group.

[With a box]

He might park a Simulacrum of himself in the tomb (ecl 10~)

[holywhippet]

I'd assume the lich would be trying to make a bargain with some being able to restore their spell casting ability. Mortal magic isn't capable of doing it so it would have to be a God or a high level outsider.


This is easy. Since he can't cast Arcane magic, have him make a deal with a dark god and get Divine magic and agree to serve the evil deity in exchange for his release from the tomb prison. The Evil deity gets a dedicated servant that can survive almost anything and the lich gets to employ magic that is divine. Or pick up a class that uses Su or Ex abilities. Warlock might be Sp, which might not be available.


No, the result is you lose all spellcasting ability regardless of whether it is divine or arcane.

[Red Fel]

So incantations will cover the How of the change, but the into what I'm not sure of. I know that there won't be any divine/damned help coming for him due to circumstances, and warlock is too close to actual casting. Binder might work, but I'll have to find a decent guide for them since I've never seen one before.

Since the lich will have started out in epic levels, I really needed a good way to power him down for the party to fight, as I estimate they'll be ECL 10-12, so I don't need the most powerful option, just something fitting.

The spell states permanently loses all spellcasting abilities, and these can't be recovered by any mortal magic, even miracle or wish, so I don't think there's a lot he can do as an epic level lich who lost all spellcasting ability. I take this to mean he can't use wands, scrolls, or any magic item that requires spellcasting ability or a UMD check.

Have a handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2942.0).

Thematically speaking, the Binder is perfect. The Lich is already an animated shell, a mockery of life-once-lived in pursuit of immortality; what's another inhabitant (or two) in that dessicated husk? He's also in a desperate position - he is alone, cut off from the outside, forced to dwell eternally with his solitude. There are beings who understand the madness that can bring. Further, no "mortal magic" can recover his powers - but there is nothing "mortal" about That Which Should Not Be.

Imagine it, if you will. The weeks pass. The months. The Lich becomes frantic. Probing into every text he has, fiddling with every reagent, experimenting with every chemical. He starts to lose what remains of his sanity. And then it happens. Perhaps he finds a scrawled symbol in the back of an aging text. Perhaps he has a sudden epiphany while staring at the circle of cracks forming in the wall. Or perhaps, in his madness and despair, an idea from a Place That Is No Place burrows into his brain. Either way, he reaches his realization, and scribes the circle on the floor. And he achieves power once again.

And he emerges from the tomb, with something else along for the ride.

The Binder is dangerously potent, as a matter of fact, because unlike a regular Lich - who may have a dangerous array of spells, but at the end of the day he's still an arcane caster - a Binder can be anything. He can be a Monk, a Fighter, a Rogue; he can heal ability damage or turn invisible or do any number of things, and you never know what his list of abilities will include next. You can prepare for an arcane caster. You know what's coming - arcane spells. You never know what a Binder is bringing to the table.

Particularly a centuries-old immortal skeletal Binder whose mind has been addled by imprisonment.

[lytokk]

Questions:

1) Why did the Lich wannabe not put in any kind of way to get out of his tomb without using magic? If he is a wizard, he would have the smarts to recognize that somebody using dispel magic or anti-magic field will leave him trapped.

2) Why did he destroy the magic items instead of just killing the knight? Why didn't he just employ dispel magic and then kill the knight and then take the magic items off the dead body? If he was a wizard, why did he not know about all of the knight's items since he was plotting to betray the party and had planned for that to happen? It should have been part of his plan: Know all about the other party members items so he could kill them easier.

He was a typical overconfident wizard. Magic rules all. There's no point in even keeping the knight's gear around for any reason, since he can't use it, he doesn't want someone else using it.

I have it written out that this didnt happen while they were adventuring, but sometime after. He got what he wanted, and then killed one member of their party, wiping out him and his entire organization. And because he's an over the top evil sob, gloats about it to the knight, daring the knight to come and take the lich on the lich's own turf. The Knight didn't know the Lich had become a lich, and the Lich didn't know the Knight had an artifact granted to him by the gods in order to destroy the lich, mostly due to the fact that divine intervention prevented him from scrying on the whole affair or finding out anything about the weapon the knight was wielding. So the over the top Evil Lich disjoins all of the knights equipment because he wants to prove to the knight how puny he really is.

Granted the tower they fought in was the lich's original stronghold, and he had built a secondary crypt where he actually did all his evil stuff, just never told the party about it.

I could end up completely scrapping this idea, but it was a thought that held a lot more potential for my party when I read the part in disjuction about losing spellcasting powers.

[atemu1234]

I'm going to look into Truenamer, since it might be useful here. Only problem is, I have no clue how to even make that mess function... Someone made a guidebook for it right?

First thing to do: Eliminate the 2x CR rule. Plain and simple. Make it CR + 5/10/15 or something, but never double.

[subject42]

If a character has spent years gaining the immense mental fortitude necessary to memorize and cast Vancian spells, it wouldn't be surprising if he'd developed some latent psionic talent as well. You might be able to retrain him into an undead psion, which can get pretty scary if done correctly.

[lytokk]

My goal is to make it a strong challenge for a group of 6 ECL 10, they all have a +2 template, but may only be level 8 by that point. And while I'm reading a truenamer guide, and the class, I don't want risk obliterating the party. I'm not sure if thats even possible, but a level 20 truenamer vs the party could prove problematic. Still trying to absorb everyting about the class I can.

[AvatarVecna]

But that's the point! He's still epic, but now using the (arguably) worst class in the game, so he would be balanced for a 10-12 level group.

There's a PrC that's designed for a Truenamer/Monk build. Multiclassing: all the problems of both for the benefits of neither.

[lytokk]

Monk was a definite possibility, but I thought that the party might have too big of a problem with a level 20 monk. That and more than likely this guy is going straight CE, so monks out. But still a thought, since he'll have really bad physical stats to start with, and maybe a decent wisdom modifier, but with insanity I could see that decreasing.

Reading the guide, I'm now imagining this guy using his phylactery as an item familiar, wearing armor made out of his own bones from constantly destroying himself, using a previous version of his own skull as a masterwork truespeaking tool called Mr. Chompers. Or maybe Mr. Chompers is the item familiar.

[atemu1234]

Monk was a definite possibility, but I thought that the party might have too big of a problem with a level 20 monk. That and more than likely this guy is going straight CE, so monks out. But still a thought, since he'll have really bad physical stats to start with, and maybe a decent wisdom modifier, but with insanity I could see that decreasing.

Reading the guide, I'm now imagining this guy using his phylactery as an item familiar, wearing armor made out of his own bones from constantly destroying himself, using a previous version of his own skull as a masterwork truespeaking tool called Mr. Chompers. Or maybe Mr. Chompers is the item familiar.

So he made the phylactery item familiar using the phylactery... there needs to be a head exploding emote.

[lytokk]

It fits all the prerequisites. Also his furniture will be made out of his own bones.

"Just need to kill myself 4 more times and I'll finally have that coffee table"

[Gildedragon]

item familiar phylactery is a bad idea.
The item familiar must be nearby, and the phylactery ought best be as far away as possible (because when you die you can't protect it)

the masterwork truespeaking tool being the item familiar is probably the best choice.

though the item familiar has to be a magical item to begin with, which he cannot make because no spellcasting.

(idea: a tooth of dahlver nar. a way to get SLAs and give himself a fearsome smile, or the amulet of the silver tongue (maybe shaped like an actual tongue) )

[lytokk]

could he remove his own head and make it a familiar before he destroys himself? Undead are objects, and its reasonable to say that a lich is magical. Though I don't know if his head is worth 2000 gp. Also, the point is he's stuck in the tomb with his phylactery, with no real way out, so its going to be nearby regardless. He's trapped in a very non-ideal situation.

[Red Fel]

(idea: a tooth of dahlver nar. a way to get SLAs and give himself a fearsome smile, or the amulet of the silver tongue (maybe shaped like an actual tongue) )

I just pictured a Lich having grafted an AotST into his mouth and resembling an undead Gene Simmons. :smalleek:

[Mr Adventurer]

How does a spell less Lich overcome his own DR?

[Coidzor]

Are levels in manifesting classes non-associated for spellcasting creatures that have lost all spellcasting ability? Hmm....

[lytokk]

A lich's DR is 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, and his natural attacks bypass magic, and his fists are bludgeoning.

Coidzor, I'm not 100% getting what you're saying, but is it can he still use psionics? That I don't know.

[Coidzor]

A lich's DR is 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, and his natural attacks bypass magic, and his fists are bludgeoning.

Coidzor, I'm not 100% getting what you're saying, but is it can he still use psionics? That I don't know.

Nonassociated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#nonassociatedClassLevels)Cla ss (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060418a)Levels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-301953.html).

Then I remember that I am a silly person and forgot that you have to have RHD for nonassociated class levels and that retraining/rebuilding had been gone into.

I'd say that yes the Lich would be able to gain, progress, and use psionic powers which, in some ways, may make him even more dangerous depending upon the particular mix of rules being used. The bigger question, IIRC, is whether Shadowcasting and/or Invocations(DFAs/Warlocks) would work still.

Also, if Spell-like Abilities are still on the table, then the Evolved Undead template from Libris Mortis may be of interest as well. Or one application of it anyway, even.

[Gildedragon]

Hah! retrains into a StP Erudite.

[Azraile]

well if your looking to power him down....

he could make a pact and part of it was taking in masive amounts of dark negitive energies from dark goddly beings

this gave him enough power to brake the spell and fortified him grately.... but it gave him several perminate level losses ...

However the dark energy powering undead he could say still have the same stats and HP, just a nerf to his CL and the loss of his caster related feats (as he's relearning them)

[Runestar]

There's precedence for regaining your spell casting capabilities after losing them to disjunction. I think Fraz-Urb-Luu somehow regained them after being trapped for hundreds of years. It was never explained; he just had them after being freed accidentally by 2 adventurers.

[Erik Vale]

Depends on if there's psionics/magic transparency in effect. If yes, no, if no, yes.