Is the rest of the Vector Legion at least uneasy with Tarquin's rape attempts?

[CaDzilla]

Miron I can see not caring since he's a callous miser, but Malack and Laurin? We haven't seen their reactions to all his rapeyness.

[Peelee]

Miron I can see not caring since he's a callous miser, but Malack and Laurin? We haven't seen their reactions to all his rapeyness.

Does it matter? What's the difference between this and, "does the rest of the Vector Legion agree with the 'honest days labor' plumbing career that Laurin's daughter has carved out for herself?"

If it makes you feel any better, sure. Why not. They all disagreed on moral grounds, and made passionate speeches to Tarquin to stop. Doesn't matter either way, so go with the route that you like.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think that they are, but it's impossible to tell.

[137beth]

It is irrelevant to the story, hence it doesn't exist in the OOTS world (which only exists as a backdrop for the story), hence no, they are not uneasy. They aren't happy with it, either, because their reaction to Tarquin's rapes doesn't exist.

[Kish]

Probably about as much as Tarquin was uneasy about Malack's plans for assembly-line mass-murder.

[JBiddles]

A lot of people are calling the Guild's thoughts irrelevant, but I don't think they are. This is one of the things that shows that yes, Tarquin has always been a callous not-so-loveable eccentric. It was a sharp twist. The Guild's feelings would tell us a lot about their relationships with Tarquin and their personal moralities.

But no, I don't think the Guild does care. Malack planned to murder a thousand people per day to honour his god, and even the least obviously evil, Laurin, seems to simply not concern herself with morality. For all that they're likeable characters, the Linear Guild are not nice people.

NOTE: edited for clarity. Thanks, FujinAkari.

[FujinAkari]

A lot of people are calling it irrelevant,

No one is calling it irrelevant, people are calling any reactions the fellow members of the Vector Legion may or may not have had irrelevant.

[DaggerPen]

Given that Laurin apparently basically never went to Tarquin's weddings (since she had no idea he was associated with Julio), it's possible that she either disapproves or doesn't know about it, but given that she was still working with him, if she knew, she can't have disapproved that strongly - more of a "this is disgusting and I won't be a part of it (but I also won't do anything to stop you)" deal. Malack and Miron obviously don't care. We don't know enough of Jacinda to get a sense, and we don't even know Shoulder Pad Guy's name, let alone anything whatsoever about his personality.

As for Malack's plans for the continent - Laurin seems to actually be interested in making the continent a better place for her daughter to live (which is not necessarily "a better place for people to live in general," mind) and strikes me as someone native to the Western Continent in the first place, so while she's hardly the fuzzy philanthropic type, I imagine she probably didn't know about Malack's plans for his, ah, glorious vampiric reign. No knowing about the others.

[Gift Jeraff]

For whatever it's worth, Laurin didn't know about Tarquin's history with Julio.

[Amphiox]

Since they rotate their combinations, and Tarquin has had so many of these forced weddings, it is quite likely that all of them have had a turn at being Tarquin's partner during one or more of them. And that would suggest that they at least choose to tolerate it.

[Vinyadan]

I actually wonder what meaning Tarquin's marriages had to him.

Not all wives were unwilling. Elan's mother likely wasn't constricted, and Penelope may also have been willing. On the other side, there are the beastly behaviour of forced marriage, torture and (presumably) marital rape, plus a series of hints to the fact that he may have killed a number of his own wives (the number, the treatment of fugitives, Nale's accusations).

I think these two aspects are to be listed under his control freak attitude towards everything, and his inability to giving the right value to things. "We've had sex once! We should marry!" looks a lot like "I will murder your party, your girlfriend, and cut off your hand, because you don't want to be a leader".

Laurin and Miron disproved of this attitude. They may have disproved Tarquin's behaviour with women, too, but it probably was for all the wrong reasons: they saw a waste of time and vain showboating where they should have seen depravity.

[NerdyKris]

They have the same reaction they have to the fact that he murders, tortures, and burns people alive. Oh, and the slavery. And the gladiator arena where people fight to the death as punishment for littering. And Malack's plan for mass produced slaughter.

Really, the whole group is despicable. I don't think their individual reactions to any one crime matters at all, given the horrific crimes they're all complacent in.

[Phoniex]

I think its important to remember that the vector legion are EVIL ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page4&p=16575471#post16575471 ).. and so things like rape and murder are an accepted norm or at least means to an end. Now I do think that on some level there is restraint in a kind of lawful evil way( Ie. I will execute you lawfully for jaywalking or some other trumped up crime) but at this point I wont set off a nuke to kill everyone just because more killing is better. But I will say that like every "evil" being on the alignment front, there is a huge amount of grey in being evil. I do think that some of the team.. perhaps the females might not like tarquins forced marriages more than others. But I'm also sure that each of the legion have their own personal secrets (like being a vampire- a secret from the public) that the other in the group are not particularly fond of. In the end, I don't really think it matters other than to prove that along with a lot of murder that the vector legion are evil. From tarquins story based perception of what a evil villain should do.. forcing women to marry him and then blackmailing them to "love/tolerate" him is a pretty standard thing for a evil villain to do. I can think of many movies and books that have a baddie as after the beautiful princess.. I mean forced marriages are in Disney movies that kids watch.. think about Aladdin!

[David Argall]

The common ancient attitude was that you could not rape your wife, and since he married the girls, with or without their consent, it was not rape in anyone's view [except ours]. The others probably didn't approve, but deemed it his business, and certainly far less important than his obsession with his sons.

[b_jonas]

we don't even know Shoulder Pad Guy's name, let alone anything whatsoever about his personality.

His name is unimportant, and we know enough about him. Better bolt everything down when Shoulder Pad Guy's around – he's a ROGUE. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html)

[Keltest]

His name is unimportant, and we know enough about him. Better bolt everything down when Shoulder Pad Guy's around – he's a ROGUE. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html)

a rogue with plate armor and a longsword and shield? Am I missing something?

[halfeye]

We saw Miron particpating in the coercion of one of Tarquin's previous wives:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html

So he at least was apparently entirely happy with the whole thing.

[CaDzilla]

a rogue with plate armor and a longsword and shield? Am I missing something?

He could be multiclassed. He could be anything...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

His name is unimportant, and we know enough about him. Better bolt everything down when Shoulder Pad Guy's around – he's a ROGUE. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html)

Has he even said a word of conversation, let alone done something that indicates his class? And what does being a Rogue have to do with his feelings in Tarquin's actions?

[Legato Endless]

They have the same reaction they have to the fact that he murders, tortures, and burns people alive. Oh, and the slavery. And the gladiator arena where people fight to the death as punishment for littering. And Malack's plan for mass produced slaughter.

Really, the whole group is despicable. I don't think their individual reactions to any one crime matters at all, given the horrific crimes they're all complacent in.

Agreed. Laurin isn't a good person, none of them are. The search for a reasonablely decent member is a wild goose chase. Laurin is completely at peace with dominating and controlling the lives of untold thousands and inflicting hideous changes and suffering onto them. Why would she care about Tarquin doing the same basic thing in miniature? Laurin doesn't display Tarky's disgusting chauvinism. Cool. That doesn't make her a better person. There's no way she cares one wit beyond maybe making a quip at some point.


Each member of their guild might have their own proclivities, but they are all fundamentally similar. They're a bunch of powerful incredibly self involved people bonded through self interest. They don't care about anything outside of their own egocentric obsessions. At least that's the picture that's been painted by every interaction we have seen thus far.

[NerdyKris]

Exactly. I feel like people are focusing on the rape situation because it was mentioned in the forums, and it's novel that any author would come out and say "Yeah, that's rape". So they're dwelling on it, to the exclusion of everything else these people are doing. And prior to that people were insisting Tarquin really wasn't that bad, because people can push "he murders and tortures" to the back of their minds, since it's common in fantasy literature.

But addressing the topic of sexual assault isn't. It's also something people have more experience with, unfortunately. We don't normally know of people killed or tortured, but we do know someone who has been assaulted. So Tarquin ends up being focused on for the crime we can relate to, while the others are being pushed into the "Well, everyone does that" category. Even if one of them wants to make a human slaughterhouse, or agrees to the murder of her own soldiers through betrayal.

The fact of the matter is all six of them are evil, no matter how they view themselves compared to their co-conspirators.

edit- Just to be clear, sexual assault is an awful crime and a horrible thing, and I do understand why it would get a more visceral reaction than murder does. I get uncomfortable as well when it's brought into a story. I'm just pointing out that when we step away from the one crime, what these people are doing is all pretty much evil with a capital E.

[Khay]

If I had to make a guess - the group as a whole seems more evil-as-in-ruthless than evil-as-in-Xykon to me. They'd probably prefer it if he stopped doing that whole thing, because it's stupid and unneccessary, but don't care overly much. They are, after all, bad people.

Except for Shoulder Pad Guy, who is actually a Paladin. Long story.

(Oh, also: I've been reading Bob Altemeyer's The Authoritarians lately. Most members of the Vector Legion are shoo-ins for the Social Dominator personality type. And that apparently comes standard with strange opinions about rape as part of the whole power fixation. Malack, I would call a Double High; driven towards power and with a gigantic heaping of self-righteousness to boot.)

[evileeyore]

And prior to that people were insisting Tarquin really wasn't that bad, because people can push "he murders and tortures" to the back of their minds, since it's common in fantasy literature.
So is rape.

And before you argue, trust me, it is.*







* No it's not as common as murder. And no, specific sub-genres likely don't ever depict rape ever (like D&D fantasy novels for instance), but there are plenty of authors who've had their antagonists and protagonists** as rapists.

** John Ringo, Stephen Donaldson I'm giving you the old squint-eye.

[Nilehus]

My guess is most of them don't outright approve of it, but they're more along the lines of "Ah, well. Everyone has their things." Except instead of smoking or drinking or whatever, it's rape.

They are still awful people, every one of them.

[Bulldog Psion]

Possible mild personal distaste aside in some cases, I figure they just don't care at all. If it doesn't affect them or someone close to them, it means essentially nothing to them, other than perhaps as regards practical repercussions (e.g. guarding against revenge attempts, etc.).

[Darth Paul]

Miron I can see not caring since he's a callous miser, but Malack and Laurin? We haven't seen their reactions to all his rapeyness.

The only one we've seen react to Tarquin's forced-marrying ways was not one of his gang at all, and that was Julio Scoundrel. And that's because he was a HERO, and his reaction was to break up a wedding and rescue the bride (somewhere in the backstory). The Legion are card-carrying villains, so their tolerance, if not endorsement, of Tarquin's villainous ways more or less goes unspoken, I imagine.

Tarquin seems as if he keeps marrying and then "divorcing" not for love, or power, or even sex, but simply because that's what a good evil overlord does in stories. Everything the man does is because it makes a better story. Maybe he was even hoping for a hero to pop up every time and try to enact a dashing rescue; but then again, given how pissed he was when Julio returned, maybe not. Or maybe J. S. "did it wrong" and defied Tarq's expectations of how this sort of thing should go.

In any case, no, his partners seem not at all like they would be uneasy with Tarquin's personal life, as long as he cleans up after himself. "Consenting dictators" standard is what they would apply. (Only the dictator needs to give consent, nobody else has a choice.)

[evileeyore]

"Consenting dictators"
"Consenting dictator"... I'm stealing that phrase for my FATE game.

[Darth Paul]

"Consenting dictator"... I'm stealing that phrase for my FATE game.

Consider it a gift from me to you. Unless stealing it is more fun.

[Deliverance]

Miron I can see not caring since he's a callous miser, but Malack and Laurin? We haven't seen their reactions to all his rapeyness.
Why would they care, beyond recognizing that that's just how Tarquin rolls, one of his fascinating quirks at which you might roll your eyes as mildly distasteful, silly, or a waste of time? Just like he recognizes their quirks and get along with them, even if they aren't his style?

These are not good people. They aren't even neutral. They are evil, bad to the bone.

Heck, even if they were good people, in the sort of faux medieval setting we've got here, they might find it acceptable though somewhat distasteful due to the number of wives he went through, since what we with our 21st century morality decry as rape due to the wife's unwillingness would have been completely acceptable through most of human history because Tarquin does it to his wife.

Though to be fair, taking into account of the equalization of gender roles in D&D, any D&D setting that worked the way it did historically where husbands raping wives were concerned could just as easily have it acceptable when wives raped husbands, equally acceptable both ways, or equally unacceptable - that's the glory of writing your own world: You steal what you want from human history and fill out the holes the way you want them to be.

[Peelee]

The only one we've seen react to Tarquin's forced-marrying ways was not one of his gang at all
Not exactly. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html)

[Gift Jeraff]

Since they rotate their combinations, and Tarquin has had so many of these forced weddings, it is quite likely that all of them have had a turn at being Tarquin's partner during one or more of them. And that would suggest that they at least choose to tolerate it.

I don't think they've all been Tarquin's partner. The impression I get is that Tarquin, Laurin, and maybe the nameless guy remain stationary while the other 3-4 move around.

[Legato Endless]

I don't think they've all been Tarquin's partner. The impression I get is that Tarquin, Laurin, and maybe the nameless guy remain stationary while the other 3-4 move around.

Eh, I doubt it's relevant even if that's true. It's not some dark secret. They've been team mates for decades even before they put Tarquin's plan into play. The odds of one of them not being aware of his "hobby" are vanishingly small. They're going to talk, share funny stories, ect.

[ManicOppressive]

And seriously, I feel like it needs to be emphasized here that these people are all really damn evil. Forced marriages are pretty evil, but they're on a mite of a different scale than mass murdering a thousand people a day like Malack wanted to. Or, you know, the ENTIRE REST of their plan as it is. If I were in a position to judge their actions, I don't think "Forced marriages + rape" is coming anywhere close to "Immolating thirty people alive for the hell of it," "shiving one's son, (though obviously this one's going to be debatable because of the circumstance)" "plunging an entire continent into a 1984-esque endless war between cruel dictatorships," or "betraying a potential ally and intentionally murdering her husband to force her to marry you (wait, ****, we're recursing.)"

[Reddish Mage]

And seriously, I feel like it needs to be emphasized here that these people are all really damn evil. Forced marriages are pretty evil, but they're on a mite of a different scale than mass murdering a thousand people a day like Malack wanted to. Or, you know, the ENTIRE REST of their plan as it is. If I were in a position to judge their actions, I don't think "Forced marriages + rape" is coming anywhere close to "Immolating thirty people alive for the hell of it," "shiving one's son, (though obviously this one's going to be debatable because of the circumstance)" "plunging an entire continent into a 1984-esque endless war between cruel dictatorships," or "betraying a potential ally and intentionally murdering her husband to force her to marry you (wait, ****, we're recursing.)"

Tarquin's habits are shown to be so cartoonishly evil that nearly every aspect of his celebration for his son is filled with it. This is best illustrated with his feast, to which one has to specially order if they want the "cruelty free" meal (meaning a meal that doesn't involve flesh that was tortured from some sentient and pure hearted creature, while it probably still had a heart). That extends to nearly every aspect of his regime shown.

I am pretty sure Tarquin sleeps on a pegasus down bed, gets up to the cry of someone-balefully-polymorphed-into-a-rooster being castrated, brushes his teeth with unicorn horn powder (taken from a living unicorn), before he can breakfast on the eggs of you don't-want-to-know-what-creature. He isn't just evil he is EEEEVIL. Now, is Laurin that evil, or could Laurin just be a neutral person along for the ride?

It is already confirmed Kilkil, the Oracle, and Therkla are neutral by word of author (so is Julio Scoundrel), and that neutral's can side with anyone. Kilkil is at least an associate member of the Vector Legion, and executes Tarquin's plans with bureaucratic efficiency and a certain air of professional detachment.

[Nilehus]

Word of Giant confirmed that all of Tarquin's team was Evil, I believe. As for how cartoonishly, mustache-twirlingly evil they are, Tarquin seems to be the outlier.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Word of Giant confirmed that all of Tarquin's team was Evil, I believe. As for how cartoonishly, mustache-twirlingly evil they are, Tarquin seems to be the outlier.

Malack seemed to be pretty Evil too (although perhaps not quite so cartoonish) given his eventual plans for the Western continent.

[Nilehus]

Malack seemed to be pretty Evil too (although perhaps not quite so cartoonish) given his eventual plans for the Western continent.

Yeah, I meant evil for the sake of being eeevil. Malack had a goal, albeit a monstrous one. All for Nergal. Tarquin... Tarquin just seemed to be doing most of that because he could.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, I meant evil for the sake of being eeevil. Malack had a goal, albeit a monstrous one. All for Nergal. Tarquin... Tarquin just seemed to be doing most of that because he could.
Oh, okay, I see your point. I agree; I think that Tarquin mostly does what he does because he believes that is what an Evil overlord does.

[Reddish Mage]

Word of Giant confirmed that all of Tarquin's team was Evil, I believe. As for how cartoonishly, mustache-twirlingly evil they are, Tarquin seems to be the outlier.

Unfortunately, I was recently reminded of the importance of having the exact quote for analysis. I think the Giant said something about the team in general as being a group of evil adventurers. However, you can refer to a group as a "evil group" even if one or a few of the members are not evil, and Kilkil appears to be a part of the group (he shows up in an initial group picture together with young Tarquin and a thin Queen, though perhaps Kilkil is just a consequence of Tarquin's Leadership feat) and is officially Lawful Neutral.

[Darth Paul]

...Huh. So Kilkil is LN. I always thought you had to be Lawful Evil alignment to take Accountant as a profession.

[Legato Endless]

Laurin is not a neutral along for the ride. She is a founder and fundamental participant in a plan to spread suffering and death across a continent so she and her daughter can live comfortably. If that's neutrality, then Xykon is chaotic fun, and Red Cloak wouldn't qualify as evil in a million years.

Furthermore, the Giant's comment leaves no ambiguity.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16575471&postcount=93

[Kish]

Calling Tarquin's mid-level Expert secretary a member of the Vector Legion would be overdignified by calling it a stretch. It's literally worse than calling Banjo, Celia, or Roy's sword a member of the Order of the Stick.

Accountant jokes are only less annoying than lawyer jokes because they're less ubiquitous.

[Knaight]

Given the torture, murder, mass murder, public symbols by burning people, slavery, etc. that the Vector Legion gets involved in routinely? I doubt they cared. They're all horrible people, and Tarquin isn't even the worst of them - Malack was worse, given his plans, though Tarquin's villainy was much more widespread.


Calling Tarquin's mid-level Expert secretary a member of the Vector Legion would be overdignified by calling it a stretch. It's literally worse than calling Banjo, Celia, or Roy's sword a member of the Order of the Stick.

I'm not sure it's worse than Banjo. At least he was briefly involved in adventuring party style activity, though that was with the Linear Guild under Tarquin/Malack. The other two I'd be inclined to agree, and I'd add the dominated kobold (Yakyak, I believe) to the list of Oots members with more legitimacy than the secretary had.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Unfortunately, I was recently reminded of the importance of having the exact quote for analysis. I think the Giant said something about the team in general as being a group of evil adventurers. However, you can refer to a group as a "evil group" even if one or a few of the members are not evil, and Kilkil appears to be a part of the group (he shows up in an initial group picture together with young Tarquin and a thin Queen, though perhaps Kilkil is just a consequence of Tarquin's Leadership feat) and is officially Lawful Neutral.
It would appear that they are a party of five Evil people plus Tarquin, who is pretty clearly Evil. I would also say that Kilkil is not part if the group because he is just doing his job as an accountant. He would work just as well with a Lawful Good government than with the Empire of Blood.

[strijder20]

I don't think Malack has much of a moral high ground to stand on, since he eternally enslaved the soul of the lizard known as Malack and some other souls (including Durkon). There are things worse than forced marriage, and killing is one of them. There are things worse than killing, and what Malack did is one of them.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...he eternally enslaved the soul of the lizard known as Malack and some other souls (including Durkon).

Two things here: First, it is unknown what the previous owner of Malack's body was called, but it is extremely unlikely that they share the same name. Also, it is the High Priest of Hel who has imprisoned Durkon. For the most part, your point still stands.

[CaDzilla]

Two things here: First, it is unknown what the previous owner of Malack's body was called, but it is extremely unlikely that they share the same name. Also, it is the High Priest of Hel who has imprisoned Durkon. For the most part, your point still stands.
HPoH is currently imprisoning Durkon. Malack imprisoned Durkon because making a vampire is virtually the same as using trap the soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled/page8&p=17327934#post17327934).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

HPoH is currently imprisoning Durkon. Malack imprisoned Durkon because making a vampire is virtually the same as using trap the soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled/page8&p=17327934#post17327934).

In that case, Malack did not eternally enslave the previous guy, he merely imprisoned him.

[137beth]

Ya know, it occurred to me... Tarquin was named after the Roman Tarquinius family...
According to some sources, the final straw that got the monarchy abolished was an act of Tarquin the Proud's son, related to a certain Lucretia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia)
The rebellion against Tarquin is led by...someone who Tarquin has attempted to sexually victimize.
I'm not sure whether the Giant is drawing an intentional comparison beyond the name, or if it is just a coincidence.

[SavageWombat]

It's a coincidence.

Tarquin compels marriage instead of simply ... taking what he wants, say ... because that way he wins. He forced them to publicly admit that he is the one who gets his way. Like how a villain might prefer not to kill the hero, instead wanting him to admit defeat. It's a more complete defeat.

[DaggerPen]

Two things here: First, it is unknown what the previous owner of Malack's body was called, but it is extremely unlikely that they share the same name. Also, it is the High Priest of Hel who has imprisoned Durkon. For the most part, your point still stands.

It's confirmed that the guy whose body Malack took had a different name, in fact. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html)

[137beth]

It's a coincidence.

Tarquin compels marriage instead of simply ... taking what he wants, say ... because that way he wins. He forced them to publicly admit that he is the one who gets his way. Like how a villain might prefer not to kill the hero, instead wanting him to admit defeat. It's a more complete defeat.
Okay yea, the situations are pretty darn different.
In OOTS, it is also Tarquin himself who is the sexual predator, not either of his sons.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Okay yea, the situations are pretty darn different.
In OOTS, it is also Tarquin himself who is the sexual predator, not either of his sons.

I think that, while it is a coincidence, it is a pretty interesting one. After all, some of the themes match up, even if many don't.

[Kish]

In that case, Malack did not eternally enslave the previous guy, he merely imprisoned him.
After strip-mining his memories, going by the High Priest of Hel's relationship with Durkon.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

After strip-mining his memories, going by the High Priest of Hel's relationship with Durkon.
In all probability, yes. I guess "merely" is probably the wrong adjective to use there.

[Yendor]

I don't see why any of Tarquin's allies would think any more of his forced marriages than they would about backstabbing their patsies. If any of them did bother to bring it up, there's any number of horrible things he could bring up to push them off the moral high ground. Or more likely, he'd just mock them for being wimps.

And Kilkil is not part of the team, even if he knows about the plan. He didn't even know who Nale was (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0718.html). He hasn't been there long, and I wouldn't expect him to survive the next reshuffle.

[Bulldog Psion]

These people play hardball. A forced marriage is despicable, but it's chicken feed next to actually tying someone up, dousing them in oil, and setting them on fire while they're still alive. I've experienced some fairly agonizing pain, but it was confined to one spot where an injury occurred. Having the entire surface of your body literally burning is something that makes me actually nauseated just thinking about. Especially since they might live for a while after having their skin and some of their flesh burned off. Ugh.

And this lot wouldn't blink at doing it to 30 people as a casual warning to slaves not to escape. They're not going to bat an eye at a rape or two. They're going to grin and say "boys will be boys" and go on about whatever they're doing.

And no, Laurin isn't "neutral and along for the ride" just because she's a woman or because she doesn't want her daughter involved. She's just as much of a monster as the rest of them.

[evileeyore]

These people play hardball. A forced marriage is despicable, but it's chicken feed next to actually tying someone up, dousing them in oil, and setting them on fire while they're still alive.
How about tying them up, freezing them, and continuing to torture them until they give in to his demand to wed?

And then obviously well, they are wed to Tarquin.

Sure... the bride is still alive... and alive is technically better than dead...

[Keltest]

How about tying them up, freezing them, and continuing to torture them until they give in to his demand to wed?

And then obviously well, they are wed to Tarquin.

Sure... the bride is still alive... and alive is technically better than dead...

Its all about scale. Tarquin burns slaves alive just because, and Malack planned to turn an empire into a slaughterhouse for his god. Anybody who willingly associates with these people in such a way that they could in any way influence their decision-making processes, as the rest of the Legion does, is either OK or indifferent with most of their actions.

Laurin or SPG might consider it petty or something, but ultimately not enough to do anything about it.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Has he even said a word of conversation, let alone done something that indicates his class? And what does being a Rogue have to do with his feelings in Tarquin's actions?

Yes, he says "A new port city!" to the Weeping King.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yes, he says "A new port city!" to the Weeping King.

Oh, okay, so he has. Not much to go off, though. :smalltongue:

[evileeyore]

Stuff.
Oh, I agree. The Vector Legion is Evil. Probably all three flavors of Evil.

I'm just not sure burning people at the stake is really worse than torturing someone until they break.

The burning - that at least ends when their dead. The torture, sure it ends when they die to, but that can take so very much longer.

[Nilehus]

Oh, okay, so he has. Not much to go off, though. :smalltongue:

Planning a new city? Clearly organized! Definitely Lawful Evil. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Oh, I agree. The Vector Legion is Evil. Probably all three flavors of Evil.

I'm just not sure burning people at the stake is really worse than torturing someone until they break.

The burning - that at least ends when their dead. The torture, sure it ends when they die to, but that can take so very much longer.

Id imagine it depends on the torture. Tarquin didn't want a smoldering mass of incoherent flesh and burnt skin for a wife, so he would be rather limited in what he could do to get his way.

[halfeye]

Planning a new city? Clearly organized! Definitely Lawful Evil. :smalltongue:
I read it as meaning new to him, but already existing. As in, to be conquered.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Planning a new city? Clearly organized! Definitely Lawful Evil. :smalltongue:

How quickly I forget that "not much to go off" translates to "heaps of character" on this forum. :smalltongue:

[Aquillion]

I think its important to remember that the vector legion are EVIL ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page4&p=16575471#post16575471 ).. and so things like rape and murder are an accepted norm or at least means to an end.Not all evil people are the same, though. Someone who embezzles massive amounts of money and ruins countless people purely because they want to live a life of lavish opulence is probably evil, but that doesn't mean they're automatically going to find rape or murder acceptable. (TVtropes even has a trope for it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)!) Obviously D&D simplifies morality a bit, but I think it's reasonable to assume that OOTS is realistic in that respect -- Redcloak presumably has 'evil' written on his character sheet, but that doesn't mean that he's going to accept every single act of depravity.

Aside: That quote you linked to heavily implies that Tarquin isn't the actual leader of his team, or even their actual strategist, merely that he's convinced himself he is. If we take the "he is the Elan of his group" seriously, it is possible that the others tolerate him more than they actually like or trust him.

[Nilehus]

How quickly I forget that "not much to go off" translates to "heaps of character" on this forum. :smalltongue:

Never underestimate this forum's ability to argue endlessly about four words. :smallwink: Or a misplaced period, or a comma...

[Legato Endless]

Not all evil people are the same, though. Someone who embezzles massive amounts of money and ruins countless people purely because they want to live a life of lavish opulence is probably evil, but that doesn't mean they're automatically going to find rape or murder acceptable. Obviously D&D simplifies morality a bit, but I think it's reasonable to assume that OOTS is realistic in that respect

While this is true, it doesn't really apply here, assuming it's mean to. These aren't a random assortment of evil people. They're coworkers/friends of several decades. They pretty much have to tacitly accept what he does.


Aside: That quote you linked to heavily implies that Tarquin isn't the actual leader of his team, or even their actual strategist, merely that he's convinced himself he is. If we take the "he is the Elan of his group" seriously, it is possible that the others tolerate him more than they actually like or trust him.

The next posting by the Giant a few lines down clarifies that the analogy shouldn't be taken too literally. Although it's possible that they don't have a real leader. Or maybe SPG is the Roy of the group.

[gerryq]

One could argue that forced marriage is Lawful rape, and thus entirely in line with a Lawful Evil alignment (which is where most of them probably fall).

[Vinyadan]

One could argue that forced marriage is Lawful rape, and thus entirely in line with a Lawful Evil alignment (which is where most of them probably fall).

I suppose it depends on different jurisdictions, but I don't know of one where this kind of forced marriage is lawful.

[Keltest]

I suppose it depends on different jurisdictions, but I don't know of one where this kind of forced marriage is lawful.

Lawful in this case referring to alignment rather than literal law. As Tarquin is the (unofficial) leader, id imagine he can make any act lawful in the sense that it obeys the local laws.

[evileeyore]

I suppose it depends on different jurisdictions, but I don't know of one where this kind of forced marriage is lawful.
I'd list some for you, but you know, real world politics and all.

[Kish]

Not really relevant anyway; the Lawful alignment doesn't mean "Legal in the gameworld," much less "Legal in some area of the real world." It means ordered, and Tarquin is obsessed with imposing his brutal form of order on everyone.

[rodneyAnonymous]

In D&D, lawful means "obeys rules", not "obeys laws". Forced marriage is definitely Lawful Evil.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I would say that because the description of the Lawful Evil alignment says "A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts." forced marriage fits under Lawful Evil.

[DaggerPen]

I am a bit confused by the current turn of the conversation. Is anyone disputing that forced marriage is Lawful Evil? It seems pretty definitely Lawful Evil to me, and we know full well Tarquin is Lawful Evil anyway.

[Kish]

Vinyadan appears to be.

[evileeyore]

Also, not that it truly matters, but forced marriages are perfectly legal in several real world countries.

So, yeah, Tarquin can be both Lawful Evil and Legal Evil (I'm sure since slavery is legal in the Empire of Blood so is forced marriage).

[Knaight]

Not all evil people are the same, though. Someone who embezzles massive amounts of money and ruins countless people purely because they want to live a life of lavish opulence is probably evil, but that doesn't mean they're automatically going to find rape or murder acceptable. (TVtropes even has a trope for it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)!) Obviously D&D simplifies morality a bit, but I think it's reasonable to assume that OOTS is realistic in that respect -- Redcloak presumably has 'evil' written on his character sheet, but that doesn't mean that he's going to accept every single act of depravity.

Sure, but we know that this set of evil people are all mass murderers, who revel in vileness. Consider Tarquin's feast, or Malack's plan, or the whole Three Empire scheme that the lot of them hatched in which they deliberately grow countries and then have them overthown, or Tarquin burning the slaves alive. They're basically murdering the entire militaries of these countries plus, in all odds, high ranking civil officials. Routinely. As in, every few years.

These aren't embezzlers. These are people that make serial killers seem benign. I doubt they have an issue with the sort of things that warrant being described as "evil" without bringing in full capitalization.

[Darth Paul]

That quote you linked to heavily implies that Tarquin isn't the actual leader of his team, or even their actual strategist, merely that he's convinced himself he is. If we take the "he is the Elan of his group" seriously, it is possible that the others tolerate him more than they actually like or trust him.

I thought that relationship (between Tarquin and his pals) was sort-of-established by the side exchange between Malack and V in the throne room http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html: M: "Is yours always like this?" V: "Yes. Yours?" M: "Sadly."

Which strongly implied to me that both Malack and V, the most intelligent of their respective groups, instantly analyzed and saw that both Tarquin and Elan played the same role, which for lack of a handy term would be "genre-savvy specialist." The difference is that Tarquin has a giant economy-size ego (which Nale inherited) that means he sees himself as the center of events, and his Legion humors him to some extent because the idea he had for controlling the continent was successful in making them powerful; while Elan has no ego whatsoever, and is perfectly happy in his role as a peripheral character. Even when events force him to center stage, Elan knows that his story really has nothing to do with saving the world, while Tarquin insists that the Xykon plot is just a side-quest compared to Elan's "proper" storyline- i.e., the one that would be all about him.

Tarquin is the evil version of Elan, even more than Nale. Both Tarquin and Elan know the power of a story, but Tarquin is the one who twists them so he will end up on top- not to save anybody, just so he will have more power.

[strijder20]

The point is that if Tarquin were Neutral or Chaotic Evil, he would just have raped them.

[Vinyadan]

In D&D, lawful means "obeys rules", not "obeys laws". Forced marriage is definitely Lawful Evil.

Right, I forgot about the "inner code" and "external code" sides of lawful alignments, which by the way makes me wonder why they chose the word lawful instead of something like "methodical" or "orderly" or "self-consistent".

Anyway, I recognize my mistake :smallbiggrin:


Vinyadan appears to be.
For a moment, I didn't understand you meant "be arguing about lawfulness of forced marriage" and thought you meant "be lawful evil". I was all like "BWUH?" :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:


Also, not that it truly matters, but forced marriages are perfectly legal in several real world countries.

So, yeah, Tarquin can be both Lawful Evil and Legal Evil (I'm sure since slavery is legal in the Empire of Blood so is forced marriage).

While your other point stands, legal slavery doesn't really imply legal forced marriage, although it can imply legal forced concubinage. It really depends on the question: in EoB, in a regular marriage, do both sides get a say? And are there conditions to render a contract void? Do threat and violence belong to these?

These are things I suppose we will never know. I think Tarquin would prefer the bride to have to say "yes" in front of the loving crowd, but I am not sure he has the rest of the legislation. Besides, he holds power so firmly in his hands, that it probably doesn't even matter anymore.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The point is that if Tarquin were Neutral or Chaotic Evil, he would just have raped them.

I don't think that this is necessarily so. I think that the main point of the original argument was not so much that Tarquin would would have done differently if he was a different ethical alignment, but that his actions fall more inline with the other members of the Vector Legion's alignment.

[Peelee]

I thought that relationship (between Tarquin and his pals) was sort-of-established by the side exchange between Malack and V in the throne room http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html: M: "Is yours always like this?" V: "Yes. Yours?" M: "Sadly."

Which strongly implied to me that both Malack and V, the most intelligent of their respective groups

I would wager that Laurin, as a Psion, would be the most intelligent.

[Keltest]

I would wager that Laurin, as a Psion, would be the most intelligent.

Miron, as an arcane caster, may possibly Rival her for that. possibly.

[Kish]

For a moment, I didn't understand you meant "be arguing about lawfulness of forced marriage" and thought you meant "be lawful evil". I was all like "BWUH?" :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:
You're a Barbarian in the Playground; barbarians cannot be Lawful.

[evileeyore]

It really depends on the question: in EoB, in a regular marriage, do both sides get a say? And are there conditions to render a contract void? Do threat and violence belong to these?

These are things I suppose we will never know. I think Tarquin would prefer the bride to have to say "yes" in front of the loving crowd, but I am not sure he has the rest of the legislation. Besides, he holds power so firmly in his hands, that it probably doesn't even matter anymore.
Good point. I'm falling into one of two thoughts on this line:

Either forced marriage is legal and Tarquin is so puppy-kickingly villainous he tortures then into saying yes, or it's illegal and the torture (while a swell bonus for him) is actually necessary to get his way.

[Darth Paul]

I would wager that Laurin, as a Psion, would be the most intelligent.

I thought that vampires were reknowned for their intelligence. Regardless of Malack's class, I would expect his Vampiric intelligence to be pretty high. But your point is well made, Laurin is doubtless pretty shrewd as well. Also, the other post about Miron being a bright fellow too (although Miron might be a sorceror, I don't think it's been established, so INT wouldn't be his prime stat in that case).

Laurin's reaction to Malack's murder made it seem like they were very good friends, so perhaps they were the two most intelligent (if "intelligent" equals "book smart"). There's also Malack's library to consider, he did love his Knowledge skills which are INT based. But I'm possibly reading too much into it to make my case, based on what was just a feeling on my part, so I'll stop now.

[Kish]

I thought that vampires were reknowned for their intelligence. Regardless of Malack's class, I would expect his Vampiric intelligence to be pretty high.
Vampire stats increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. Constitution becomes -, due to death.

Which, in the case of a lizardfolk vampire, translates to, "Your racial Intelligence -2 goes away, leaving you exactly as smart as if you were a human with the same base stats!" I wouldn't be surprised at all if Malack was running on an Intelligence penalty.

[Legato Endless]

Good point. I'm falling into one of two thoughts on this line:

Either forced marriage is legal and Tarquin is so puppy-kickingly villainous he tortures then into saying yes, or it's illegal and the torture (while a swell bonus for him) is actually necessary to get his way.

The latter probably. Tarquin probably doesn't recognize forced marriage. Marriage is a choice between two consenting adults. Sometimes the "consent" just needs some guidance and reinforcement. Or rather, I don't think he cares whether forces marriage is legal currently, but rather that marriage is done in a certain way. He adheres to this model...ans will help it along in a pinch. This fits with his "guidance" of his children. Prospective wife needs to say yes, because that's how these things are done.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Miron, as an arcane caster, may possibly Rival her for that. possibly.

But if he is a sorcerer, his highest stat is probably Charisma and he may have average or even low Intelligence.

[Peelee]

But if he is a sorcerer, his highest stat is probably Charisma and he may have average or even low Intelligence.

My money's on sorcerer. He just acts....sorcerery.

Not that it's relevant to this discussion, but I rather like playing high-Int sorcerers.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My money's on sorcerer. He just acts....sorcerery.

Not that it's relevant to this discussion, but I rather like playing high-Int sorcerers.
I wouldn't specifically say any class, but I have the feeling that he has a relatively lower INT score.

[St Fan]

Who knows, maybe the rest of Tarquin's party disapproves of his forced marriages silliness... because it's a whole waste of time and money.

"Sheesh, Tarquin, can't you just rape and then kill the girls, just like any villain worth his salt? Or better yet, force them into a whole harem of sex slaves?! That would be so much more efficient!"

[Darth Paul]

Vampire stats increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. Constitution becomes -, due to death.

Which, in the case of a lizardfolk vampire, translates to, "Your racial Intelligence -2 goes away, leaving you exactly as smart as if you were a human with the same base stats!" I wouldn't be surprised at all if Malack was running on an Intelligence penalty.

Malack isn't a standard lizardfolk like Gannji, he may be a serpent folk of some undefined type. We have seen that he has a prehensile body/tail that he uses to grapple Durkon, that is not a lizardfolk feature. I still wouldn't bet against his INT being in the high teens; combine that with his Cleric WIS and he is one sharp cookie.

[Peelee]

Malack isn't a standard lizardfolk like Gannji, he may be a serpent folk of some undefined type. We have seen that he has a prehensile body/tail that he uses to grapple Durkon, that is not a lizardfolk feature. I still wouldn't bet against his INT being in the high teens; combine that with his Cleric WIS and he is one sharp cookie.

I'd take that bet. Malack describes his old self as "ignorant," meaning (aside from obvious contempt for his body's previous inhabitant) he very likely did not have a high Int score. I'd be surprised if it was over 14, post-vampirization. Remember, 10-11 is average. High teens is supposed to be almost incomprehensibly smart for us.

[Koo Rehtorb]

"Ignorant" can mean "poorly educated".

[Keltest]

"Ignorant" can mean "poorly educated".

Even so, one with 18 intelligence is not ignorant. Intelligence represents more than factual knowledge; its also your ability to learn, acquire and process information, things like that. A lizardfolk shaman with high teens intelligence would practically be able to use information they picked up casually and their own intuition to seem smart without ever having been properly educated.

[Vinyadan]

There also is the religious aspect. The shaman may have not worshipped Nergal; he could also have been about a totally different pantheon. High Priest Malak could see this as a sign of ignorance.

But think of how different you are from 10-20 years ago, and think of how a malevolent creature with an extremely long lifespan must judge the inexperienced, short lived being from which it came to life.

[Peelee]

There also is the religious aspect. The shaman may have not worshipped Nergal; he could also have been about a totally different pantheon. High Priest Malak could see this as a sign of ignorance.
That would make his friendship with Durkon.... interesting.


But think of how different you are from 10-20 years ago, and think of how a malevolent creature with an extremely long lifespan must judge the inexperienced, short lived being from which it came to life.

True, but if my old self was incredibly smart, I wouldn't label myself as "ignorant." I'm not saying he was particularly stupid, I just don't think he had any higher than a 14 thrown in Int. Which, again, isn't stupid. It's above average. It's smart. Just not nearly as smart as a wizard or psion, especially a high-level one.

[Darth Paul]

I'd take that bet. Malack describes his old self as "ignorant," meaning (aside from obvious contempt for his body's previous inhabitant) he very likely did not have a high Int score. I'd be surprised if it was over 14, post-vampirization. Remember, 10-11 is average. High teens is supposed to be almost incomprehensibly smart for us.

Bill Gates is about 19 INT. Stephen Hawking, 21 INT. Now, I can comprehend how smart that is, even if I can't keep up with them. I am not saying Malack approached that level. On the other hand, the Pope probably rates a 15 or 16, given that he has to know much of the lore of the Catholic Church or at least, know who does know it. Malack, as a High Priest, probably is a Pope equivalent. And Malack has had decades of life to accumulate Intelligence. He could easily have added some INT to whatever he started with due to levelling up in order to get to where he is. He may be a little bit beyond that level of INT by now.

The way vampirism works in OOTS may also be not exactly the way it works in D&D. The HPoH, in taking over Durkon, may not be tied directly to Durkon's mental stats, nor was Malack neccesarily tied to the INT of his body's original occupant. We would have to ask Rich about that, I guess. (Suppose he's reading?)

[Peelee]

Bill Gates is about 19 INT. Stephen Hawking, 21 INT. Now, I can comprehend how smart that is, even if I can't keep up with them. I am not saying Malack approached that level. On the other hand, the Pope probably rates a 15 or 16, given that he has to know much of the lore of the Catholic Church or at least, know who does know it. Malack, as a High Priest, probably is a Pope equivalent. And Malack has had decades of life to accumulate Intelligence. He could easily have added some INT to whatever he started with due to levelling up in order to get to where he is. He may be a little bit beyond that level of INT by now.

The way vampirism works in OOTS may also be not exactly the way it works in D&D. The HPoH, in taking over Durkon, may not be tied directly to Durkon's mental stats, nor was Malack neccesarily tied to the INT of his body's original occupant. We would have to ask Rich about that, I guess. (Suppose he's reading?)

In my opinion, youre overestimating the numbers. Also, knowledge checks ate added bonuses to Int, not straight Int scores.

[Kish]

I totally do not see where either of you is seeing above-average (never mind genius) Intelligence in anything Malack ever said or did.

(As for, "He could be a variant creature with an Intelligence bonus instead of a penalty"--yes, and he could also be a variant vampire with an Intelligence penalty instead of a [trivial] bonus. Either pointing to Malack's race and creature type to form theories about his Intelligence is valid or it is not, and it's really a wash either way.)

[Nilehus]

The closest he came to being cunning was the whole spell backdoor thing. Other than that, he was otherwise pretty normal in intelligence.

He was wise, very much so, but not remarkably intelligent. 12, 14 tops.

[Peelee]

The closest he came to being cunning was the whole spell backdoor thing. Other than that, he was otherwise pretty normal in intelligence.

He was wise, very much so, but not remarkably intelligent. 12, 14 tops.

That is what I've been (poorly) trying to say. No way over 14, probably 10-12.

Kish, as to where I'm basing the average-to-above average intelligence, is in his tactics, discussions with Durkon, and eventual plan for the future. Wisdom on its own leaves room for general silliness, as Durkon shows occasionally; wisdom plus intelligence makes a more thoughtful-minded person, which Malack appeared to be. I'm aware personality plays a large role in this, I'll admit there's little basis for evidence, as he didn't have tons of screen time, but that's how it read to me. Not saying he couldn't have been running at average or even an Int penalty, but as there's little evidence either way, I prefer to go with my first instinct.

[CaDzilla]

High teens is supposed to be almost incomprehensibly smart for us.

Couldn't resist (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/706/613/9b6.jpg):smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Couldn't resist (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/706/613/9b6.jpg):smalltongue:

It took me until this morning to get that, but it was worth it. Good show, sir.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It took me until this morning to get that, but it was worth it. Good show, sir.

Wow, I only just got it now too. Bravo, Cadzilla. :smallsmile:

[Unisus]

Knowledge hasn't much to do with intelligence - high intelligence does not mean that you know everything, and you can know a lot even though you have below average intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to use that knowledge for your purposes.

[Vinyadan]

That would make his friendship with Durkon.... interesting.

Right, I didn't consider that. Although he does call him a priest of equal standing, which means that there are others of higher or lower standing to him, some of which he may consider ignorant. Which is so long-winded, which stops adressing the point :smallbiggrin:


True, but if my old self was incredibly smart, I wouldn't label myself as "ignorant." I'm not saying he was particularly stupid, I just don't think he had any higher than a 14 thrown in Int. Which, again, isn't stupid. It's above average. It's smart. Just not nearly as smart as a wizard or psion, especially a high-level one.

I think that there is a linguistic problem here. To me, ignorant is someone who doesn't know something, and the world can be an acknowledgment (said by the person to which it refers) as well as an insult (like, someone who doesn't know enough), but doesn't really express much about intelligence. Shaman Malak could have been very smart, but, in comparison to High Cleric, 200 years old Malak, he must seem quite the ignorant.

I agree on the fact that we haven't seen Malak doing anything miraculously intelligent, and that there is no need for a 15-18 Int to explain his action.

Also, a little thing which may help answer the OP: Nale says that one VL protocol is "Business before pleasure" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html). Tarquin's habit counts as pleasure. When business was done, there likely wasn't anyone to hold him off, and some even joined in (like Miron), and likely had some deranged fun out of it.

[Knaight]

Bill Gates is about 19 INT. Stephen Hawking, 21 INT. Now, I can comprehend how smart that is, even if I can't keep up with them. I am not saying Malack approached that level. On the other hand, the Pope probably rates a 15 or 16, given that he has to know much of the lore of the Catholic Church or at least, know who does know it. Malack, as a High Priest, probably is a Pope equivalent. And Malack has had decades of life to accumulate Intelligence. He could easily have added some INT to whatever he started with due to levelling up in order to get to where he is. He may be a little bit beyond that level of INT by now.

So, where exactly are these numbers coming from? Right now the main candidate appears to be thin air, and that's not exactly inspiring confidence.

As for harder numbers - Malack's vampire template would counter the whole lizard thing. Aging bonuses confer +3 - 10.5 isn't actually average, it's average for a young adult, the elderly are at 13.5, and Malack is clearly supposed to be analogous to someone who is more middle aged or upward.

[Aquillion]

So, where exactly are these numbers coming from? Right now the main candidate appears to be thin air, and that's not exactly inspiring confidence.I think it's just reasonable logic.

There was a thread earlier that tried to assign IQs to Intelligence values based on the assumption that everyone in the world rolls 3d6 straight down the line (and therefore, ~2.7% of the population is intelligence 18 or above); this leads to weird results, but it's one legitimate way of approaching it. If you assume that things are like that, then it's reasonable to assume that eg. a brilliant scientist is probably in that 2.7%, probably has a few levels, and possibly spent any stat gains they made from leveling up on further expanding their mind.

I think that that's a lot of 'probably', but it makes a lot more sense to me than treating Int 18 as impossible, incomprehensibly superhuman; stats are meant to model the human range, and in the original roll-3d6-straight-down method, ~2.7% of PCs will have it. (More if you use 4d6-drop-lowest, of course, let alone point buy.) PCs are exceptional, but a first-level character is not meant to be that exceptional; I don't think it makes any sense to assume that 2.7% of first-level characters have an incomprehensibly vast transhuman intellect.

Tarquin, on the other hand... may not be intelligent or wise at all. It feels like he understands genre tropes, but has almost no ability to interpret or understand situations outside them. I feel like he could actually have very mediocre mental scores, with his "brilliance" coming from maxed ranks of Knowledge (Fantasy Genre) or something along those lines. This would explain why he basically falls apart when things fail to match that expectation.

(I also think that a lot of people dramatically overestimated his intelligence because he did so well at handling Elan and the group earlier. The thing is -- he held all the cards there, and was dealing with Elan, who is both naive and his son. Those are softball things. We have no real evidence that Tarquin is at all competent under more genuinely difficult circumstances -- recent evidence suggests no -- and we don't know how much of the actual thinking and planning is done by his teammates.)

[Darth Paul]

So, where exactly are these numbers coming from? Right now the main candidate appears to be thin air, and that's not exactly inspiring confidence.

Well, if 18 is meant to represent Genius intelligence, then I assume that a real-live Genius would have an 18 or above if he were a D&D character. Stephen Hawking invented a whole new branch of physics (or at least, improved our understanding of it beyond all measure), so he is perhaps a step above that. Bill Gates created the present-day computer for all intents and purposes (yes, he had help, he wasn't the only one, but nevertheless, he was right in there), so likewise, 18 or 19 INT.

Wisdom is harder to quantify, but I would have to say someone like Gandhi would be 18 WIS in D&D terms. Probably 18 CHR too. The Pope is right up there as well, whether one agrees with him or not, although no Pope recently has done more than lead an existing institution, so maybe they have more CHA than WIS these days. But I think they have to be above average INT too to manage such a massive institution, even with the College of Cardinals to do much of the work- they all started as Cardinals before becoming Pope, and that is no job for a dummie.

So it's just reading the stat charts, which say 10-11 is average, 18 is genius, and extrapolating from there.

[Koo Rehtorb]

There was a thread earlier that tried to assign IQs to Intelligence values based on the assumption that everyone in the world rolls 3d6 straight down the line (and therefore, ~2.7% of the population is intelligence 18 or above)

I think this is a flawed premise that throws calculations wildly off. I see no reason to assume that everyone in the world throws dice for stat generation.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Just a note that, among scientists, Stephen Hawking is not particularly exceptional, although he is quite famous and that has... advantages. He's a great human and very smart, but not a super-genius or anything

[CaDzilla]

Tarquin, on the other hand... may not be intelligent or wise at all. It feels like he understands genre tropes, but has almost no ability to interpret or understand situations outside them. I feel like he could actually have very mediocre mental scores, with his "brilliance" coming from maxed ranks of Knowledge (Fantasy Genre) or something along those lines. This would explain why he basically falls apart when things fail to match that expectation.


I chalk up Tarquin's perceived intellect to his arrogance. His interactions with Miron and Laurin deflated his ego, and that's why he seems less smart than before.

[Peelee]

I'm wondering if we shouldn't take this over to the CLG thread

[CaDzilla]

I'm wondering if we shouldn't take this over to the CLG thread

They have a rule against this kind of speculating


Frequently Asked Questions
Q: A character undertook this brilliant/moronic/insightful/ignorant/inspiring/repulsive action. Does that mean they now have a high/low intelligence/wisdom/charisma score?
No. Similar to the previous question, people have different ideas about what the mental ability scores represent and how much they influence a character's personality. The ability scores posted here are taken from the character's own mouth, someone else in a position to know their scores, or their use of a spell/feat/whatever which requires a minimum ability score. Kindly refrain from speculating from how a character's personality changes their ability scores, since it's not really something you can reason out with facts and numbers either.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a theory out there that real life people never get very far beyond level six? Or am I misremembering?

[Legato Endless]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a theory out there that real life people never get very far beyond level six? Or am I misremembering?

There is. The basic idea being a 1 is a competent professional, 2-3 is an elite, 4-5 are the people who shape nations, and a 6 is a legend, one whose name would be inscribed in history for their accomplishments. However its not really cogent here, as it refers to overall skill and prowess. A lvl 1 can still rock a 20 int. score.

2.7 does not sound too absurd in a standardized medieval world DnD supposedly takes place in. Between infant mortality, and even throwing that out, lack of motivation or opportunity, a good deal of your high int people aren't going to reasonable manifest it. Incomprehensibly smart? No, a good deal of early int checks rely on education and lore. Certainly a talent, but fairly mundane elite. The god wizard that can deconstruct a person's life at a glance a la Sherlock Holmes comes later.

[Reddish Mage]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a theory out there that real life people never get very far beyond level six? Or am I misremembering?

I thought the theory was that most swords and sorcery fantasy people never get beyond level 6.

[Reddish Mage]

Who knows, maybe the rest of Tarquin's party disapproves of his forced marriages silliness... because it's a whole waste of time and money.

"Sheesh, Tarquin, can't you just rape and then kill the girls, just like any villain worth his salt? Or better yet, force them into a whole harem of sex slaves?! That would be so much more efficient!"

I agree, Tarquin's need to legitimize his desires through social institutions such as "marriage" is yet another example of making overly-dramatic moves that cost enormous amounts of time and resources, like soldiers lives. I mean, seriously, he sent an unspecified number of soldiers out of their way to kill a single soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) when he already had the woman in his clutches.

[Amphiox]

The fact that Laurin apparently did not know that Julio had been regularly and routinely disrupting Tarquin's forced weddings, (and the ancillary fact that she had never been present to witness any such occasion, or even in the vicinity to hear about it afterwards), giving how frequently those weddings were implied to have occurred and how frequently the Vector Legionnaires swapped positions is quite suggestive that in Laurin's case the ignorance is a deliberate choice to look the other way.

[137beth]

I'd take that bet. Malack describes his old self as "ignorant," meaning (aside from obvious contempt for his body's previous inhabitant) he very likely did not have a high Int score. I'd be surprised if it was over 14, post-vampirization. Remember, 10-11 is average. High teens is supposed to be almost incomprehensibly smart for us.

Malack also may also get an INT bonus for being Venerable age, though. Still, that's not much.

[Psyren]

Am I missing something? Vector Legion is cool and all but is that their official name?

[Jasdoif]

Am I missing something? Vector Legion is cool and all but is that their official name?Yes, it is. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435651746556149760)

[ManicOppressive]

For the record, the way I usually equate ability scores to real life is by equating 100 IQ to 10 INT. Every point in either direction from that I equate to 5 IQ points. That puts 18 (The highest a normal person should normally expect to be) at 140, and 3 (The lowest a character can be) at 65. (For the record, 60 is generally considered the lowest an IQ test can measure, and is the bottom line for being functional in society.)

I know that isn't perfect, but it usually helps. For another good comparison, consider that someone with 18 strength would consider 300 lbs a heavy load. There are definitely body-builders in the world who can carry around 300 lb loads.

[Koo Rehtorb]

That puts 18 (The highest a normal person should normally expect to be) at 140

This is where you go off. D&D characters aren't supposed to be "normal" people. It is a game about fantasy superheroes and adventurers are supposed to be a cut above the common folk. At least 10 IQ points per int point.

[Peelee]

For the record, the way I usually equate ability scores to real life is by equating 100 IQ to 10 INT. Every point in either direction from that I equate to 5 IQ points. That puts 18 (The highest a normal person should normally expect to be) at 140, and 3 (The lowest a character can be) at 65. (For the record, 60 is generally considered the lowest an IQ test can measure, and is the bottom line for being functional in society.)

I know that isn't perfect, but it usually helps. For another good comparison, consider that someone with 18 strength would consider 300 lbs a heavy load. There are definitely body-builders in the world who can carry around 300 lb loads.

The other problem inherent in equating Int to IQ is that IQ is not a measure of how smart someone is. If I remember right, the best analogy is height; almost every NBA player is really tall, but being tall itself does not grant the ability to play basketball. And even then, people like Muggsy Bogues exist.

[Keltest]

The other problem inherent in equating Int to IQ is that IQ is not a measure of how smart someone is. If I remember right, the best analogy is height; almost every NBA player is really tall, but being tall itself does not grant the ability to play basketball. And even then, people like Muggsy Bogues exist.

Actually my understanding of both Int scores and IQ is that they represent almost identical things: Namely the ability to process and retain information. Someone with 18 int who was raised by wolves and never met another person is going to lack a lot of book smarts, but they'll be really knowledgeable about the forest, because they would be able to pick up information like what is safe to eat by watching what animals eat and things like that. The scales might stop in different places, but they've always seemed to measure similar things to me.

[halfeye]

There was a thread earlier that tried to assign IQs to Intelligence values based on the assumption that everyone in the world rolls 3d6 straight down the line (and therefore, ~2.7% of the population is intelligence 18 or above); this leads to weird results, but it's one legitimate way of approaching it. If you assume that things are like that, then it's reasonable to assume that eg. a brilliant scientist is probably in that 2.7%, probably has a few levels, and possibly spent any stat gains they made from leveling up on further expanding their mind.


For the record, the way I usually equate ability scores to real life is by equating 100 IQ to 10 INT. Every point in either direction from that I equate to 5 IQ points. That puts 18 (The highest a normal person should normally expect to be) at 140, and 3 (The lowest a character can be) at 65. (For the record, 60 is generally considered the lowest an IQ test can measure, and is the bottom line for being functional in society.)

I know that isn't perfect, but it usually helps. For another good comparison, consider that someone with 18 strength would consider 300 lbs a heavy load. There are definitely body-builders in the world who can carry around 300 lb loads.

This is where you go off. D&D characters aren't supposed to be "normal" people. It is a game about fantasy superheroes and adventurers are supposed to be a cut above the common folk. At least 10 IQ points per int point.

All wrong, in terms of real life. In real life, the intelligence quotients of humans is a normal curve, this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/IQ_distribution.svg/500px-IQ_distribution.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient

Which means, throwing dice fits it exactly, but the 2.7% are at about IQ 130 and above in the real world, which is something like the average graduate, not the average genius.

There are a lot of near average IQ people about, but the really high IQ scores are not that rare when the population gets up into the millions.