Shapeshifting Barbarian?

[Mcdt2]

Would it be a fair trade for a Barbarian to trade out his Rage ability (and upgrades) for the Druid Shapeshift ACF from PHBII?

Further, would it be a fair trade for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328113-Barbarian-now-with-150-more-beef-(3-5-PEACH)) homebrew fix?

If not, what other things should it give up (or get, if you think it's a weak trade) to make it balanced? I'm aiming for, simply, a shapeshifting warrior type, as the alterations I've made to ranger make Wildshape Ranger (or one who traded out for Shapeshift) unusable without more thought. Besides, I think it would fit a barbarian better, especially the homebrew fix I linked above.

[XionUnborn01]

Without his rage, he's not much of a barbarian. They don't have a lot going for them otherwise. The fix you listed put even MORE emphasis on rage so I'm confused as to why you would even want to start with barbarian.

[I3igAl]

Would it be a fair trade for a Barbarian to trade out his Rage ability (and upgrades) for the Druid Shapeshift ACF from PHBII?

Further, would it be a fair trade for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328113-Barbarian-now-with-150-more-beef-(3-5-PEACH)) homebrew fix?

If not, what other things should it give up (or get, if you think it's a weak trade) to make it balanced? I'm aiming for, simply, a shapeshifting warrior type, as the alterations I've made to ranger make Wildshape Ranger (or one who traded out for Shapeshift) unusable without more thought. Besides, I think it would fit a barbarian better, especially the homebrew fix I linked above.

It definetely is kind of an upgrade, but I like the flavour.

Your homebrew Barbarian's Brute Powers kinda remind me of the Pathfinder Barbarian http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian and his Rage Powers. Since you already play with a buffed up homebrew Barbarian version, it really is quite hard to judge, how strong you want your Barbarian to become. What is balanced depends too much on your groups playstyle. Do your wizards play the class to it's max potential or do they just throw Magic Missile and Fireballs?
I would keep his Immunities and status ignore abilities. This keeps him reliable and might be needed in most high level games. I would remove the Bonus Feats, Pounce(if he wants it, he has to pick the right shapes). You could also reduce the number of Brute Powers. I wouldn't remove all of them though, since they might be needed to make a ertain build at your table.


BTW Do you know this Prestige Class http://dndtools.eu/classes/bear-warrior/ for a Shapechanging Barb?

[Coidzor]

Would it be a fair trade for a Barbarian to trade out his Rage ability (and upgrades) for the Druid Shapeshift ACF from PHBII?

Further, would it be a fair trade for this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328113-Barbarian-now-with-150-more-beef-(3-5-PEACH)) homebrew fix?

If not, what other things should it give up (or get, if you think it's a weak trade) to make it balanced? I'm aiming for, simply, a shapeshifting warrior type, as the alterations I've made to ranger make Wildshape Ranger (or one who traded out for Shapeshift) unusable without more thought. Besides, I think it would fit a barbarian better, especially the homebrew fix I linked above.

IIRC, Shapeshift is weaker but more versatile than Rage, so I'd tentatively allow it, offhand and AFB.

Looking over that homebrew class, I'd say that Shapeshift pretty much has to be weaker but more versatile and since it has other things other than Rage I'd be less hesitant, though I didn't fully read over the interaction between Rage and Brute Powers, so trading out Rage may necessitate trading away more than rage or rewriting some other sections of text there.

I'd say the ability to qualify for Warshaper(Complete Warrior) more explicitly might help. Maybe greater access to gaining natural weapons or an explicit ability to retain access to manufactured weapons/retain use of items that are usable in the new form...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hi there. Firstly, if you're looking for shapeshifting barbaric types, may I suggest my Beastman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328962-The-Beastman-Revised-%28PEACH%29)?

If you wanted to add Shapeshift onto that Barbarian, though... well, your method should work just fine, all things considered. He really doesn't have many abilities that only work while Raging. For those that do (Fueled by Slaughter, Heir of Beowulf), just change it to "while Shapeshifted." Replace Endless Rage with... oh... the ability to Shapeshift as a free action, as many times/turn as you want, including on others' turns. Or you might replace the benefits of each level of Rage with those of the corresponding level of Shapeshift (ie, predator form for a Mortal Rage, aereal for a Heroic, and so on), but leave the rest of the structure intact, giving you something like the Bear Warrior.

[Segev]

I actually suggest taking a look at Bear Warrior from Complete Warrior. It might do what you want and then some.

[Mcdt2]

I'm aware of Bear Warrior, yes. But 1) That's bears only and 2) doesn't allow shifting into multiple creature types nor allow that at level 1. Besides that, it can't be entered before level 8, and so it wouldn't get used in the majority of my games.

AS for balance I'm looking for here... Somewhere High T3 for most things, with the occasional T4 existing mostly to allow newer players to play something simpler and more straightforward, or to allow me to build some simpler enemies with less things to keep track of, while still being more threatening than a generic warrior or something. I've actually replaced most of the classes in the game with yet more homebrew, so we don't really have wizards exactly, though the player who plays casters most often tends to have an obsession with blasting and battlefield control alike, usually content to blast away with fireballs until an actually challenging fight comes along, and then he breaks out the black tentacles and such.


Hi there. Firstly, if you're looking for shapeshifting barbaric types, may I suggest my Beastman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?328962-The-Beastman-Revised-%28PEACH%29)?

Oh hey, look, the creator of the 'brew in question. I have to say I love your work. Most of the classes I use were either made by you or T.G. Oskar. But I digress.

I have seen your Beastman, but... well, mostly I chose not to use it and make this thread simply because Beastman is still based off Wildshape/Alternate Form (even if you made it so that the original score still has relevance, it seems a tad clunky, and I know from experience my players have issues with stat swapping compared to plain stat boosting).


If you wanted to add Shapeshift onto that Barbarian, though... well, your method should work just fine, all things considered. He really doesn't have many abilities that only work while Raging. For those that do (Fueled by Slaughter, Heir of Beowulf), just change it to "while Shapeshifted." Replace Endless Rage with... oh... the ability to Shapeshift as a free action, as many times/turn as you want, including on others' turns. Or you might replace the benefits of each level of Rage with those of the corresponding level of Shapeshift (ie, predator form for a Mortal Rage, aereal for a Heroic, and so on), but leave the rest of the structure intact, giving you something like the Bear Warrior.

That's... quite good actually. I hadn't even considered the issue of what to do with Endless Rage, but I like your suggestion. I may or may not just change the benefits of the Rages like that but... I'm not sure what you mean by that exactly. Like, would it still have the reduce DC, or could they shift downwards freely? I mean, it works for all the forms save for Aerial really (That one's a bit of an odd man out, granting flight and not as focused on Str pumping).


Mostly this is just a thought experiment, maybe something I'll use as an enemy/npc at some point, because none of my players are really interested shapeshifting and stuff, save for one, who recently played a wildshape focused druid for 30 levels of a campaign, so... He's interested in playing something different.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh hey, look, the creator of the 'brew in question. I have to say I love your work. Most of the classes I use were either made by you or T.G. Oskar. But I digress.

I have seen your Beastman, but... well, mostly I chose not to use it and make this thread simply because Beastman is still based off Wildshape/Alternate Form (even if you made it so that the original score still has relevance, it seems a tad clunky, and I know from experience my players have issues with stat swapping compared to plain stat boosting).
Thanks, dude.

The original Beastman thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?213031-The-Beastman-3-5-PEACH)has a Shapeshift variant if you scroll down.



I may or may not just change the benefits of the Rages like that but... I'm not sure what you mean by that exactly. Like, would it still have the reduce DC, or could they shift downwards freely? I mean, it works for all the forms save for Aerial really (That one's a bit of an odd man out, granting flight and not as focused on Str pumping).
Yeah, it was a kind of off-the-cuff thing; on reflection, it wouldn't really work to still have the Rage restrictions with the shapeshifting.