Player Handbook 1 Only?!

[Fightmaster]

Hi guys. So I had been planning on making a Gish for a campaign I'm starting but the dm only allows for player handbook 1. Is there any way to make fighter/wizard work decently? Or should I settle for cleric or something?

[dascarletm]

should I settle for cleric or something?

Yes.

Does this mean you can't get any items from the DMG?

[Crake]

Yes.

Does this mean you can't get any items from the DMG?

Presumably not if starting at level 1

[Fightmaster]

Yes we are starting from level one. I've never had an interest in divine classes as I'm not fond of getting my power from someone else, but if there's no real way to make fighter/wizard work then I can give it a shot

[Rebel7284]

No prestige classes either? I mean Eldritch Knight is pretty boring, but it CAN hit things acceptably well and you do get 9th level spells. :)

Otherwise, the answer is Polymorph. :)

[Eldariel]

If you have access to the prestige classes from Dungeon Master's Guide, Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight will work okay. It's not the best and it's definitely at its worst on the low levels but given good stats you'll be okay. My own preference is for Ranger 1/Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 10 to be honest - Ranger skills are really nice and you won't use heavy armor as a Wizard anyways. Getting the ability to use Ranger Wands (yes, you get it from the single level even without ever getting Ranger-casting) is a nice bonus. You lose out on 1 feat, but feats aren't really all that in Core. Whatever you do, take exactly 1 level in the warrior class (because you get BAB from casting levels too but you don't get ½ casting from Fighter-levels) and take it first (for the higher maximized HD and more 4*skills if you use Barbarian or Ranger), and go to Eldritch Knight at the earliest opportunity.

Note though, Cleric doesn't necessarily mean getting power from someone else. While that's the default fluff, you're also e.g. allowed to become the Cleric of an ideal, and Clerics exist in worlds without tangible deities (such as Eberron). It would be possible to say that your Cleric's magic is powered by their faith rather than by an actual outside power, for instance. Think e.g. Kotomine Kirei from Fate/Stay Night. This way you could play a Cleric without having to feel like you're little more than a deity's power outlet. It also explains why you gain spell slots by leveling and such.

Also, Druids are pretty badass. Provided you don't dislike the idea of turning to a bear and mauling someone's face off while wielding magic in your other paw, Druid certainly has the best kit of abilities from Core and also works the best with lower ability scores. Cleric and Fighter/Wizard both want fairly good score all-around (high Casting Stat, Strength & Con and preferably high Dex too), but Druid's Wildshape means he doesn't really need Strength, Dexterity or such all that much.


In short:
1) Yes, Fighter/Wizard is doable if you have access to the Prestige Classes from Dungeon Master's Guide. Else, forget about it. Even with them, you'll only really catch up to the rest of the team around level 9-10.
2) Clerics don't have to be just channeling deities' power, you can decide on alternative faith-related power sources. It says as much in the book. Unless you're in Forgotten Realms, there Clerics specifically need patron deities (though you can work with your DM).
3) Consider Druids. Far as warriors with magic go, they are just the best, particularly if you don't have amazing stats. If you don't mind being naturey, Druid gets the perfect blend of martial skill and magic, combat and otherwise. It's worth noting that Druids' magic is much closer to arcane magic than a Cleric's, but they still get most of the big divine thingies (Heal, Reincarnate, Lesser Restoration; granted, Reincarnate often carries unintended side-effects).

[holywhippet]

Had the DM given the ok for gestalt characters? Those rules aren't in the PHB after all.

It may seem odd, but consider a monk/wizard instead of a fighter/wizard. The monk doesn't normally wear armor and is good at avoiding danger. Their low AC can be countered by some spells the wizard has access to. The mediocre BAB is a bit harder to get around until higher levels though.

[Chaosvii7]

Well, at least with no Monster Manual and Dungeon Master's Guide you don't have to worry about Dungeons OR Dragons. Easy leveling! :smallcool:

Seriously, though, Druid, Wizard, or Cleric 20 would be the most powerful choice available to you in a core-only game. I assume that they'll get magic items as they level, but Wizard is still plenty viable without a swarm of magic items to back you up. Cleric's probably more versatile for being a combat-buffer and dealing with undead, should you run into a lot of them. Druid brings a friend with him, can summon an army of friends with him, and can wild shape into all of his friends to fight. He's got perhaps the most versatility out of the 3. If you get DMG prestige classes, there's a few interesting options that you can toss around. But yes, straight spellcaster with full-9 casting is easily the best option you can take in this situation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to do melee, just make a Druid and stick with it. Even if you can only pick things from the PHB, it specifically says, "A druid may begin play with an animal companion selected from the following list..." and it goes on to list animals from the Monster Manual. Start play with a Riding Dog that's trained for war so it has the trip special attack. Get max ranks in Kn: Nature so you can make a Knowledge check to prove your character is familiar with a given animal (DC 10 + HD) and be able to Wild Shape into it, regardless of whether or not you've ever encountered one.

[Fightmaster]

I'm thinking I'll go with cleric, and take a level of fighter for the weapon proficiencies and bonus feat. Druid sounds interesting (mostly the concept of being a spellcasting raptor :smallbiggrin:) but I'm pretty sure my group wouldn't go for that

[eggynack]

I'm thinking I'll go with cleric, and take a level of fighter for the weapon proficiencies and bonus feat
That's not really the best plan, as neither thing is particularly worth it. Your feats aren't even all that constrained in core, so if you really want to you can just spend one of your normal feat slots on exotic weapon proficiency, and eat the lack of cool feat value. It would definitely be better than dropping caster levels, as would most things.

[lytokk]

My thoughts would be ranger/Wizard. Gets all the fighter weapon prof, and light armor. If you really want to do core only spellcasting, you prb won't go out of light armor unless you can eventually get to a prc to reduce arcane spell failure, plus more skill points and a better skill selection.

[Andezzar]

I'm thinking I'll go with cleric, and take a level of fighter for the weapon proficiencies and bonus feat. Druid sounds interesting (mostly the concept of being a spellcasting raptor :smallbiggrin:) but I'm pretty sure my group wouldn't go for thatDon't. It will delay your casting. This includes things like Divine Power. And weapon types don't matter much for the overall damage of the attacks

If you really are not satisfied with the humble morning star, take the War domain and a deity with a favored weapon of your choice.

[ArqArturo]

Quoting the 3.5 Optimization board (may you rest in peace):

It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics (or Warlocks, or Fochlucan Lyrists, or anything balanced that's come out of splatbooks that aren't munchfests like Complete Divine) isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions.

[infomatic]

Don't. It will delay your casting. This includes things like Divine Power. And weapon types don't matter much for the overall damage of the attacks

If you really are not satisfied with the humble morning star, take the War domain and a deity with a favored weapon of your choice.

Seconding this. Straight Cleric is just fine.

Straight Druid is also just fine, even before the spellcasting raptor part. Grab a club, slap Shillelagh on it and hit stuff.

And Bard is OK. Certainly better than mixing caster/noncaster classes in PHB-only.

[Andezzar]

Make sure, you really can't take the PrCs from the DMG. If so go cleric or druid. If you can Wizard5/Fighter1/Eldritch Knight 10/Wizard4 should not be that bad and more in line with your original idea.

[Namfuak]

Since it hasn't been suggested yet, another way to do a gish is Paladin 2 / Sorcerer x/(Eldritch Knight). Divine Grace happens to work well with the sorcerer's reliance on Charisma, and you'll have enough health to stand in the frontlines.

[Eldariel]

I'm thinking I'll go with cleric, and take a level of fighter for the weapon proficiencies and bonus feat. Druid sounds interesting (mostly the concept of being a spellcasting raptor :smallbiggrin:) but I'm pretty sure my group wouldn't go for that

Why wouldn't they? You like the idea of a Druid (that's precisely what they're about), they do what you want (fight and cast) and they're great teamplayers (nice unique spells, lots of tools for controlling enemy like Entangle and what-not alongside unique buff in Barkskin)! Give it a go, ask, and if not, fall back on Cleric.


And yeah, as others have mentioned, on Cleric there's no real reason to take a level of Fighter for weapon proficiencies; you can just be a martial Cleric of any given deity with War-domain if you want to wield some martial weapon, and for Exotic Weapon you can pick up the proficiency without Fighter level just the same. Cleric is really amazing because of their spells. You want to get to Cleric level 9 as soon as possible (you can Quicken Divine Favor and cast Righteous Might at this point, to truly stomp faces in fight should you feel like it, all the while wielding a Greater Magic Weaponed free +2 weapon and Magic Vestmented +2 armor). Simple weapons get you far enough for backups (pick something to throw as a ranged option but remember that Cleric has Air Walk among other things).

Indeed, you want to maximize the number of casting levels you have to get the truly awesome stuff as soon as possible. Cleric already gets you heavy armor and simple weapons, and War-domain or feat can get you a martial or an exotic weapon if you want one (if you don't, e.g. Longspear is a fine option). Oh, and if you get poked for healing supplies, poke them back to buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds for downtime healing so you can conserve your spellslots for actual utility; healing with spells burns your slots really fast and isn't really something you can afford to do early (once you get the spell "Heal", that can be worth casting tho).

[dascarletm]

Presumably not if starting at level 1

Is there a rule that disallows purchasing DMG items at character creation? I know some are within most starting character's budget.

[Flashy]

Is there a rule that disallows purchasing DMG items at character creation? I know some are within most starting character's budget.

I'm genuinely curious, what useful DMG items can you buy for 3d6 gold? (Wizard starting cash, which is the most possible starting gold in PHB1)

[holywhippet]

Is the DM only allowing classes from the players handbook or are you restricted to literally only the PHB for everything? If you can use spells from other books the spell wraithstrike makes usually less impressive melee classes a lot stronger as you only have to hit touch AC rather than regular AC.

[eggynack]

I'm genuinely curious, what useful DMG items can you buy for 3d6 gold? (Wizard starting cash, which is the most possible starting gold in PHB1)
Wizard starting gold is 3d4*10, which is about 75 GP. The max is 150 GP, for fighters, paladins, and rangers, though if you include the DMG, aristocrats get 6d8*10, for 270 GP. Wizards can exceed just about everyone, however, if they sell off their spell book. As for stuff to buy, typically armor, a basic weapon, and maybe some stuff off of Shax's indispensable haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)). The particular list is dependent on the particular class, however, and a riding dog is a popular choice on the more wealthy classes.

[Flashy]

Wizard starting gold is 3d4*10, which is about 75 GP. The max is 150 GP, for fighters, paladins, and rangers, though if you include the DMG, aristocrats get 6d8*10, for 270 GP. Wizards can exceed just about everyone, however, if they sell off their spell book. As for stuff to buy, typically armor, a basic weapon, and maybe some stuff off of Shax's indispensable haversack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)). The particular list is dependent on the particular class, however, and a riding dog is a popular choice on the more wealthy classes.

Ah, I was confused. All of my DMs have restricted everything to just the three core books, and they also required the use of the default starting equipment (with mild racial or carrying capacity alterations) so I didn't actually realize that there were alternate equipment buy options.

[Fightmaster]

Base classes, spells and feats so far are restricted to handbook one. Prestige classes are a possibility but not a guarantee. They are subject to peer review which could go either way.

[eggynack]

Base classes, spells and feats so far are restricted to handbook one. Prestige classes are a possibility but not a guarantee. They are subject to peer review which could go either way.
Well then, ask about the possibility of eldritch knight, cause it's mediocre but not the worst thing, and if that doesn't work, go with druid, followed by cleric if that too fails.