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Silus
2014-06-10, 11:04 PM
Well less "experienced" and more "Oh we see where this is going and we're not really scared". Annoyingly genre savvy players more or less.

Anyway, so I'm working on a new section for my little homebrew world and thought "Wow, this place would be pretty nifty to run a horror themed game in." The short version, a large haunted island covered in mists and evergreen trees with the ruins of an Elven nation scattered over it. Haunted in less of the "Oooooo ghoooooosts" and more like "There's something watching us from out in the mists".

So I'm a bit rusty at the whole horror thing and was wondering if anyone had any tips for creating an atmosphere of horror and extreme paranoia without having to resort to "Big'ol monster's gonna get'cha!" and the sort of Call of Cthulhu "Your character is gonna die anyway" thing.

Details on the current campaign plan will be expounded upon on request.

Edit: One thing I do plan to do is have a LOT of notes prepped with either personal creepy "You notice this thing but the others don't" or just stage directions to throw off the other players, like:


Read this, look up at the DM with a worried expression and say something to the effect of "....Really?". Look back at this note, still a little worried, then hand the note back. Don't tell ANYONE.

Slipperychicken
2014-06-10, 11:16 PM
What system?

Why are your PCs there? What are they trying to do, and how?

Do you know any of the players' real-life fears? Do any of the PCs have fears?

Are your PCs actual characters? Do they care about anything beyond swag, class features, and kill count?

What's on the island, beside mist and ruins?

Someonelse
2014-06-10, 11:19 PM
I have that same problem with my regular group. They are experienced and genre savvy to the point that I cannot do any sort of horror game (I run a horror themed one shot every year around halloween and try as I might, no one has ever been even slightly creeped out by anything in the game). I recently attempted a walking dead style zombie survival game and, even though I insisted they make normal every day people as characters rather than the special ops sniper explosives expert who was discharged for his bad attitude, they had, I think, maybe two encounters with zombies where dice were rolled, after that the zombies really became more of a minor inconvenience; because they played very smart and didn't make any mistakes. also their characters had no flaws (not that they were over optimized or anything mechanical), there was no tension within the group, they all worked together perfectly, because this particular group of players has been sitting in my basement, crawling around dungeons and slaying dragons together for years.

Unfortunately I have no advice to add, but i look forward to reading other responses because this is something I would like to learn about.

Silus
2014-06-10, 11:33 PM
What system?

Why are your PCs there? What are they trying to do, and how?

Do you know any of the players' real-life fears? Do any of the PCs have fears?

Are your PCs actual characters? Do they care about anything beyond swag, class features, and kill count?

What's on the island, beside mist and ruins?

Pathfinder/3.5

Likely raiding the ruins and collecting some expensive and valuable quasi-magical lumber (Containers made from wood from the island can hold 10% more in a mild "bigger on the inside" sort of thing).

No idea as of yet >.>

Again, not sure.

One highly fortified city (High stone walls, a garrison of a Paladin order, Daylight spells cast on 20ft increments on the outer wall and a 1-mile deforested area), a lumber camp operated by volunteer undead, a failed colony ("They didn't listen when we said not to go into the woods"), an abandoned prison, and a semi-foritfied chapel on the coast. At least that's what's there so far.

Edit: Current inspiration for the campaign is, admittedly, Marble Hornets and various other Slenderman type things.

So the Slenderman type thing (Which I still need to stat up. I'm thinking Suggestion at-will being a thing) finally confronts the PCs and there's a difficult battle. Finally, after expending many spells and taking many hits, the PCs FINALLY kill the thing.

So everyone is recovering from the fight, healing up, gathering arrows, etc.

Then the mist starts thinning.

And there's another Slenderman.

And another.

And another.

Tens of them, standing off ~50ft, just watching, knowing the PCs can see them and intentionally not doing anything.

Slipperychicken
2014-06-10, 11:52 PM
Have you thought about using sanity rules to help convey the PCs' terror?

Also, if spacetime is so distorted that wood grown on the island can hold more stuff than it ought to, you can totally segue that into the island's reality and physics being subtly warped in all sorts of horrible fun ways. Like having ruins which can't be left from the same place you entered them (or trying to leave the way you came in brings you to a different exit point entirely), or paths which don't really lead anywhere. Or having the path to the dock disappear and reappear depending on the time of day. Or having clown-car rooms filled with improbable numbers of objects and enemies (much like the horde-rushing-out-from-a-bathroom-stall phenomenon in left4dead). Or having time itself flow strangely: A particular day on the island might let a week pass on the outside world, for example, and this might lead to strange vegetative growths and unnatural decay. Or having traps which rely on hammerspace, like a bear trap located in a space much too small for it, and thus much harder to see. Or having the PCs feet fall into small hammerspace-holes which are difficult to free oneself from because the holes' interior dimensions aren't working like they ought to.

EDIT: You could also have predators which rely on weird space, such as the phase spiders from whose silk Portable Holes are made. Or other creatures which can teleport, blur, displace, or go ethereal.

Silus
2014-06-11, 12:14 AM
Have you thought about using sanity rules to help convey the PCs' terror?

Also, if spacetime is so distorted that wood grown on the island can hold more stuff than it ought to, you can totally segue that into the island's reality and physics being subtly warped in all sorts of horrible fun ways. Like having ruins which can't be left from the same place you entered them (or trying to leave the way you came in brings you to a different exit point entirely), or paths which don't really lead anywhere. Or having the path to the dock disappear and reappear depending on the time of day. Or having clown-car rooms filled with improbable numbers of objects and enemies (much like the horde-rushing-out-from-a-bathroom-stall phenomenon in left4dead). Or having time itself flow strangely: A particular day on the island might let a week pass on the outside world, for example, and this might lead to strange vegetative growths and unnatural decay. Or having traps which rely on hammerspace, like a bear trap located in a space much too small for it, and thus much harder to see. Or having the PCs feet fall into small hammerspace-holes which are difficult to free oneself from because the holes' interior dimensions aren't working like they ought to.

EDIT: You could also have predators which rely on weird space, such as the phase spiders from whose silk Portable Holes are made. Or other creatures which can teleport, blur, displace, or go ethereal.

I'd been tinkering with the concept of alien geometries at least in relation to the island-wide forest. Coupled with the always-there mist/fog, it'd be rather easy to pull off. Though doing it with the abandoned prison would be...interesting.

Spiders though, spiders will definitely be a thing.

Sanity rules though...I dunno, if I can find a way to apply it and make it feel...natural? *Shrugs*

veti
2014-06-11, 12:32 AM
As I see it, 'tense horror' implies (1) an enemy that's completely out of your league, and (2) constant uncertainty about when or how it can/will strike. You can restrict character generation to make (1) true for a horde of zombies, but if your setting allows for a position where (2) isn't a factor, you won't get the tension.

The easiest way to achieve (2) is probably to mislead the players about the constraints on the enemy. Your "Oh ****" moment above is an example of that (they're thinking there's just one of these things, until...) - but you need to pull the same kind of trick repeatedly. Maybe they start out thinking that the evil can only strike at night. You can milk that for a while, throwing delays at them to stop them from reaching "safety" before nightfall. Then It happens in the day, but in a dark/indoor place. Then it happens in broad daylight. And their "safe" place turns out not to be. And so on.

Silus
2014-06-11, 12:45 AM
As I see it, 'tense horror' implies (1) an enemy that's completely out of your league, and (2) constant uncertainty about when or how it can/will strike. You can restrict character generation to make (1) true for a horde of zombies, but if your setting allows for a position where (2) isn't a factor, you won't get the tension.

The easiest way to achieve (2) is probably to mislead the players about the constraints on the enemy. Your "Oh ****" moment above is an example of that (they're thinking there's just one of these things, until...) - but you need to pull the same kind of trick repeatedly. Maybe they start out thinking that the evil can only strike at night. You can milk that for a while, throwing delays at them to stop them from reaching "safety" before nightfall. Then It happens in the day, but in a dark/indoor place. Then it happens in broad daylight. And their "safe" place turns out not to be. And so on.

I was actually considering adding in the whole Slenderman Proxy thing coupled with the "Slender Sickness", characterized by headaches and prevalent cough, which the PCs would only realize would be a thing later on after almost all of the major NPCs have exhibited such symptoms. Then I'd play up the whole "This city is a fortress" without explicitly telling the PCs that (I figure if I tell them that they'll expect a subversion and that the city will be in danger).


1) PCs get to the city, find it heavily defended and that it is literally built atop a massive Protection from Evil sigil.
2) Notice there's some sort of sickness going about. "Probably a cold or something"
3) Are assured though NPCs and looking at the defenses themselves that the city is pretty dang safe and that anything coming from the island would have a hell of a time getting in (Daylight "spotlight" spells on the walls, firearms, cannons, a full Paladin order, etc).
4) PCs venture out, start spotting Slenderman, return to the city after a while.
5) NPCs request the PCs for a job to track down other NPCs that have gone off on research trips to various locations on the island (Elven capital ruins, the abandoned prison, the chapel and the lost colony). Offers quite a bit of money for the job is the PCs don't outright accept.
6) More Slenderman sightings at the locations, find that the NPCs at the locations have been turned into high-end Proxies. Fight ensues and the NPCs are either killed or captured. If captured (Let's hope) they exhibit the symptoms that those in the city did.
7) Upon returning to the city, they somehow figure out (unsure of the how just yet) that the coughing and headaches are symptoms of the Slender Sickness, a side effect of the Slenderman exerting his control over someone.
8) Realize that the city isn't as well defended as they'd hoped and that there are several hundred Proxies in the city, and that Slenderman doesn't need to break through the defenses when he's got agents inside that can just shut them off.

QuidEst
2014-06-11, 01:17 AM
I would avoid the trick of, "Oh look, lots of what you just had a hard time beating!" It falls victim to Conservation of Ninjutsu. Slenderman may be creepy, but Slendermen are not. To me, it would be a blatant cliche, break immersion, and feel like the GM just showing off that yes, they are indeed running things. If you want lots of something, go with the conservation. Easy to kill, but not something you want to let hit you. Say, a bunch of scarecrow like things that shuffle silently towards you. Melee touch attack to touch skin or leather, causing it to peel. Minor damage to leather armor bypassing hardness, and your choice of how you want to handle missing skin.

Body horror is useful. Eyeballs where they're not supposed to be in particular, although spider legs inside somebody's mouth aren't bad. Pop-culture stuff like Slenderman isn't going to do as much. Peruse The Hollow Men (http://www.shmoop.com/hollow-men/poem-text.html) for other inspiration instead.

Genre savvy players tend to be suspicious of odd behavior, so having creatures or people do mechanically bad things can throw them for a loop. Have an enemy attack until it hits, then stop, lick the blood from its weapon, and then kneel down, neck exposed. Maybe it takes on the face of the person in the process. Or maybe it stops attacking a pulls out a gold piece, offering it to the PC. Maybe a bunch of monsters gang up on one of their number that has acted differently in some way.

Have cultists always have one hand clenched shut. If they're killed, inside is a piece of paper that says, "Thank you", "Gratitude", "Life is long", or something like that.

Are you familiar with Fullmetal Alchemist? Tucker was one of the best examples I've seen of something that managed to mess with my emotions despite me knowing in advance.

Thrudd
2014-06-11, 01:38 AM
Slipperychicken's question: "Are your PCs actual characters? Do they care about anything beyond swag, class features, and kill count?" is really the most important to consider. D&D/PF isn't the greatest system for this sort of thing. A sense of tension and horror can only exist if the players are actually scared for their characters' lives, or something else important to them. You can dress up your environment with creepy descriptions, and try to encourage them to role play it by suggesting the sense of dread their characters feel, and present them with mysterious events hoping they won't guess what's going on. But when the creatures finally appear, it's still just "clobberin' time" if they aren't actually an overwhelming threat. Tension and dread are gone, no matter how creepy or mysterious the surroundings are. Weird physics is just another puzzle to solve or an annoyance to tolerate, unless they are actually afraid that they won't make it out of there. One way to get the players scared is to give the creature/s a weakening ability, like energy drain or ability drain or both, which strips away their ability to fight. They might be able to kill it, but every touch makes them weaker. With nowhere really safe on the island, and an unknown number of threats that could come from anywhere, it might get the effect you want.

Oneris
2014-06-11, 02:45 AM
Make them make Spot checks that always reveal nothing, or occasionally strange things, like their shadow is lagging by 4 seconds.

Make them make a listen check, and ask if any of their characters understand (Insert obscure-language-none-of them-have-taken here) and when they say no, just tell them they hear some unintelligible noises.

Have mundane objects develop strange features, like a block of lumber with fingerprints imprinted into the surface, or footprints in solid rock, going up a cliff face.

Have small animals commit suicide in gruesome ways, if you're not against cruelty to fictional animals. Entire shoals of fish beaching themselves, the stench from the rotting pervading the air. Squirrels and rats chewing their limbs to the bone, animals birthing young and immediately eating them.

The creepiest things are things they cannot fight.

HighWater
2014-06-11, 04:59 AM
Well less "experienced" and more "Oh we see where this is going and we're not really scared". Annoyingly genre savvy players more or less.
<snip>
Edit: One thing I do plan to do is have a LOT of notes prepped with either personal creepy "You notice this thing but the others don't" or just stage directions to throw off the other players, like:

Bad plan: you immediately give away the game to that one player (you're bluffing!). If you pass out that note to other players at one point or another, they'll stop being scared by anything a fellow player tells them. You'd be better off asking one of them off on the side to play along and really get into the horror of it.
Alternatively, notes with texts like:
"You get the feeling you're being watched, but you can't actually see anything."
"PC X is looking paler than she did yesterday."
"PC Y keeps scratching his wrist, but doesn't seem to notice."
etc. etc.

Simple suggestions of being contaminated/an enemy within, can do much to poke up paranoia.

Players that are both genre-savvy and combat-oriented are incredibly hard to spook. Even if they somehow tap into the atmosphere, they'll feel self-confident again as soon as you offer them any control. Combat in DnD is control, because PCs ROCK at combat.

A center point is DENY THEM (meaningful) COMBAT. Sure they can cut down a cultist or two, but make very sure they know that that didn't really help their situation. Perhaps that infected commoner they just chopped into pieces and then Fireballed for good measure, starts to reassemble from the ashes. Nothing that isn't a wish or miracle will keep it down, don't make it vulnerable in the same ways a Tarrasque is. Flesh to Stone only lasts a round or two before it slowly starts to reverse.
Sure, the commoner isn't a real threat when they first kill her, but everytime she gets back up, she is slightly stronger than she was before (a +2 on every stat). Clue the PCs in on this (She seems stronger and faster now, she smiles, revealing a toothless mouth in which a black tongue darts around like a wounded snake. She beckons you, knife drawn, apparently inviting you to another round of slaughter.), if that happens a couple of times, their resources slowly drained by fighting her while she gets stronger, they'll probably start retreating before it becomes strong enough to kill them. Then let her follow them everywhere. Watching. Laughing occasionally. Sometimes she's visible, sometimes she's out there in the mist. Sometimes she's already behind the next door they open, while she was behind them only a moment ago... Smiling at what they do. Frowing at what they do. Gazing past them at something hidden behind them in the mist... Is she scared?

Silus
2014-06-11, 06:38 AM
Players that are both genre-savvy and combat-oriented are incredibly hard to spook. Even if they somehow tap into the atmosphere, they'll feel self-confident again as soon as you offer them any control. Combat in DnD is control, because PCs ROCK at combat.

A center point is DENY THEM (meaningful) COMBAT. Sure they can cut down a cultist or two, but make very sure they know that that didn't really help their situation. Perhaps that infected commoner they just chopped into pieces and then Fireballed for good measure, starts to reassemble from the ashes. Nothing that isn't a wish or miracle will keep it down, don't make it vulnerable in the same ways a Tarrasque is. Flesh to Stone only lasts a round or two before it slowly starts to reverse.
Sure, the commoner isn't a real threat when they first kill her, but everytime she gets back up, she is slightly stronger than she was before (a +2 on every stat). Clue the PCs in on this (She seems stronger and faster now, she smiles, revealing a toothless mouth in which a black tongue darts around like a wounded snake. She beckons you, knife drawn, apparently inviting you to another round of slaughter.), if that happens a couple of times, their resources slowly drained by fighting her while she gets stronger, they'll probably start retreating before it becomes strong enough to kill them. Then let her follow them everywhere. Watching. Laughing occasionally. Sometimes she's visible, sometimes she's out there in the mist. Sometimes she's already behind the next door they open, while she was behind them only a moment ago... Smiling at what they do. Frowing at what they do. Gazing past them at something hidden behind them in the mist... Is she scared?

What about hinting that things could be far worse than they currently are?

The players learn of the whole "Sickness = Proxy = creature's sleeper agent" thing and decide to check on the supposed "lost colony" for clues or loot or whatever. They get up there and find that said colony is/was actually that of another nation whose ruling class are lycanthropes (A lycanthropic, theocratic magocracy monarchy to be specific). No signs of struggle, no bodies, a bit of blood, but not enough to suggest a dead body, and tracks (or simply evidence) of a large group of people headed into the forest where the trail goes cold. Never see or hear anyone from the colony, never encounter any of them, but the PCs will more or less know "Crap, he (Slendy/the monster) has a whole colony of lycanthropes under his control".

Yea or nay?

DM Nate
2014-06-11, 06:53 AM
(I find a great treasure trove of creepiness is www.scp-wiki.net. Use it for some inspiration.)

I ran a horror Cthuluesque aquatic campaign some time ago, and I did something that turned out to be a bit TOO effective. The hidden enemy basically was the beast from John Carpenter's "The Thing" (or Campbell's "Who Goes There?" if you're informed). My party didn't realize what exactly they were fighting until the four of them literally stumbled upon the body of one of their own party, suddenly realizing the clone that had been with them the whole time was actually THE monster. (Cue transformation scene and a boss fight with only 3 players.)

From that point on, the party was constantly wondering if they themselves were actually roleplaying the monster itself (since, while impersonating them, the Thing had all their memories, personality, and even magical abilities). To use a quote from the movie: "So, how do we know who's human? If I was an imitation, a perfect imitation, how would you know if it was really me?"

Unfortunately, in the case of my group, it worked a little too well, and the party began suspecting I'd turned anyone who stepped out even for a moment. In the end, the paranoia in-game exacerbated problems we were having in-real-life, and the gaming group eventually collapsed after a PC-created TPK.

(If you're interested in reading the write-up of the pivotal session, I have a link here (http://shadowsea.wormholes.info/?page_id=368).)

Angelalex242
2014-06-11, 07:41 AM
Theoretically, you're supposed to use Ravenloft for that. It has Fear Checks, Horror Check, and Madness Checks because game designers know that Players are just too mentally tough and genre savvy to be scared.

This gets worse with the Paladin, who is not only immune to fear, but his job description is hunting down and killing things that go bump in the night.

"A scary thing is trying to scare you."

Paladin:*pulls out holy sword* SMITE EVIL!

Particularly in Pathfinder, where Smite bypasses all damage reduction. Even DR/- or DR/Epic. Nothing withstands the almighty power of Smite Evil.

Indeed, a well done Paladin...

Avatar of Hextor: Your blood will stain my 6 weapons this day!
Paladin of Heironeus: That's nice. But I'll make you remember it! SMITE EVIL!

So if an Avatar of an Evil God can't scare this guy, nothing less is going to get the job done either.

Silus
2014-06-11, 07:53 AM
Theoretically, you're supposed to use Ravenloft for that. It has Fear Checks, Horror Check, and Madness Checks because game designers know that Players are just too mentally tough and genre savvy to be scared.

This gets worse with the Paladin, who is not only immune to fear, but his job description is hunting down and killing things that go bump in the night.

"A scary thing is trying to scare you."

Paladin:*pulls out holy sword* SMITE EVIL!

Particularly in Pathfinder, where Smite bypasses all damage reduction. Even DR/- or DR/Epic. Nothing withstands the almighty power of Smite Evil.

Indeed, a well done Paladin...

Avatar of Hextor: Your blood will stain my 6 weapons this day!
Paladin of Heironeus: That's nice. But I'll make you remember it! SMITE EVIL!

So if an Avatar of an Evil God can't scare this guy, nothing less is going to get the job done either.

Which makes things even better when, surprise surprise, a good chunk of the Paladin order are sleeper agents for the monster.

But I'll look into the Ravenloft stuff, see if I can't port a few things over.

HammeredWharf
2014-06-11, 08:25 AM
Paladins are also not immune to fear in Ravenloft.

Not being in control is an important part of horror, but it's pretty hard to pull off in D&D. One good option is making creepy events occur when the PCs are not present. For example:

The PCs walk through a room full of animal skins. A Spot check reveals they're not animal skins, but human skins. The PCs get through the room without incident, do whatever they were supposed to do, turn back and walk into the room with skins again. A successful Spot check reveals some of the skins are missing. A successful Listen check reveals the roof and walls are full of crawling... things. Enter the skin monsters from Libris Mortis! When will they attack? Will they attack at all? Should the PCs try to continue their journey or find a safe spot where they can't be surrounded?

The PCs are trying to solve a murder that happened during an ongoing masquerade. After investigating the crime scene, they receive some clues that tell them the murderer was possibly a shapeshifter and how to identify those shapeshifters. They start searching for the murderer, but a complication arises: when they enter the crowd, they realize everyone at the masquerade is a shapshifter. A successful Sense Motive check reveals something is off and hostile about the atmosphere. There are too many enemies for the PCs to handle. Do they know the PCs know? Should the PCs try to leave while they still can? Should they stay and try to act dumb?

"Oh crap. What do we do?" moments like these can create a lot of tension and are quite amusing to watch as a DM.

Red Fel
2014-06-11, 08:46 AM
I've contributed to a few horror threads before. If I can dig them up later, I'll throw up some links here.

Basically, you want to avoid mechanical horror effects, such as sanity and fear saves and the like. Unless your players are extremely good roleplayers, mechanical effects detract from what you're trying to do. And what you're trying to do, in a nutshell, is this:

To achieve true horror, don't attack the characters, attack the players.

Anything that happens to the characters - combat, saves, anything involving dice - is filtered. The character is an intermediary, filtering the experience of fear before it can hit the player. Take away the middleman, and the fear goes directly to the players, concentrated and unfiltered. Here's how you do it.

First, warp mechanics. Make things work oddly. For example, have the players roll Spot or Listen (or their PF equivalents) at random times. Have them roll Sense Motive against basically anything. Have them rolling random checks, to convince them that something is amiss. Technically, PCs are doing that all the time, passively; you're just making them aware that they're doing it. And unless there actually is something to see, hear, or discover, tell them they get nothing out of it. This creates paranoia - they'll begin to believe that they must be missing something. Note: Unless you actually have them find things on occasion, they will become inured to the repeated checks and find them annoying. So let them see or hear things from time to time.

Second, avoid mechanics. Introduce things that can be addressed in-character, but not mechanically. Environmental effects, for example. A storm batters the windows of an old house, the shutters rattle and the wind howls through cracks in the masonry. It's creepy as hell, and there's not much to be done about it (unless you prepared Control Weather). The candles cast odd shadows on the wall. People run away around corners, whispering, and are gone by the time your PCs arrive. That sort of thing. Use totally explicable phenomena, purely coincidental, which - when added up - suggest something horrifying and incomprehensible. Use phenomena that the players can't attack, can't use a skill check or a save against; phenomena that can't be addressed with a spell because the players have no idea what they just saw. The mechanics of their characters make the players feel powerful; when you thwart those mechanics, the players are left without their characters as intermediaries, and have to simply act, alone and defenseless. Note: Most importantly, avoid combat where possible. Combat is comfortable; life becomes a series of numbers and dice rolls. It breaks the tension. Don't let it happen if you can avoid it.

Third, thwart experience. The familiar is safe. These are experienced players; they've seen it all. So don't use what they know. You're in an okay place with Slenderman, for example, and if that's the only monster they face, even better. But if they face other creatures, refluff them. Describe things by appearance, not by name, and be graphic. For example:
A groaning sound can be heard. A figure shambles out of the mists, moaning; his clothing is torn, his hair mottled, his skin jaundiced and sickly. His glazed eyes seem to stare past you, and drool hangs from his dessicated lips. He approaches, hands outstretched.
If your players try to Turn Undead against this apparent Zombie, they will fail. And they won't understand. And it will terrify them. That's because this isn't a Zombie, or even an Undead, at all - perhaps it's a sick person, or a mind-controlled person, or some kind of defective changeling. With the right descriptions, you can make an Imp intimidating.

Last, don't let the beat drop. Keep building the pressure, with creepy atmosphere and environmental effects, with coincidences and creepiness. But don't go too long with only suggestions. If you do that, it becomes repetitive and predictable. You have to give them a periodic payoff. Just as they're getting comfortable with the failed checks, do something blatantly horrific. For example, the players are exploring the old house, and have made yet another Listen check. Big surprise, nothing. They chuckle, getting accustomed to the checks, and open the door to the kitchen, where they find a human corpse, perfectly dissected, laid out on the table, each organ carefully removed and placed on a separate plate. One of the houseguests is currently indulging himself in some chopped liver. Actual liver. Or another illustration, they make a Listen check and hear a rattling shutter. They go to check it out, because why not, and that's where they see their first Slenderman, hunched in the window; it turns to gaze at them with its eyeless face, before leaping from the window and fading into the night. Give them some periodic payoff and you can get back to building the pressure.

Finally, I agree with the conservation of ninjutsu mentioned above. A singular creature could be anything; an avatar, a god, an abomination. A race of creatures is a race, and as scary as they may be, races have limits. Keep it singular and mysterious.

hamlet
2014-06-11, 08:55 AM
Pathfinder's kind of tough since it's so high magic. The players are going to be and feel like they are armed for bear and they'll just steam roll stuff half the time. At least that's my experience.

However, there are a few tips that I've managed to figure out over the years.

One, and the best I think, is that if your players are savvy to the genre and the game, then use that specifically against them. Is it playing "against the players"? Yeah, just a little bit, but it's also really effective.

Set up the situation so that it might appear at first glance to look like one thing, say, a vampire attack, and then as the players load up and prepare to that, twist it to something else. My most successfull event was setting the stage to look like a vampire attack, as above, with bodies drained of blood in seemingly locked houses and some illusory hijinks going on, and then suddenly the players discover it's actually a cloaker with all its shadow powers in full mode and playing the true apex predator who refused to sit still and soak up their damage. It retreated when it felt threatened or faced more than one PC at a time, did what it could to break up the group and go after loners, etc.

Just betraying their expectations did enough to literally frighten the players.

In addition to that and as a follow on, if there is a monster involved, realize that the monster is probably an apex predator. And the PC's are prey. Make them start to feel it. The monster is going to hunt them and try to pick them off one at a time when it can. If it can't get them, it'll go after easier prey: civilians, NPC's, pack animals and mounts, etc. It might just appear at the edge of their camp one night in the shadows, observing, and pondering if it could get away with jumping in and making a run at a weak looking party member and carrying them off. A nice grapple check with some enhanced grapple feats could really do wonders for that sense of "Oh hell! It's got Bob now!"

Another tip that I've found can really go one way or the other, depending on the group, is to remove the players' free agency. A charm spell is a wonderous thing. Especially in AD&D since it lasts a long time. Don't be overt about it, and don't throw it at a player who isn't game for it and not a great role player. But imagine a charm dropped on a PC who then acts as a mole within the party on behalf of the monster. Vampires are especially good at this. Or Fey creatures with charm like abilities. Perhaps the woods are populated by Dryads who, while maybe not the major monster, are just as dangerous in that they'll work to pick off a handsome PC for their own ends and muddy the issue.

Also also, remove their powers. Perhaps a side effect of these trees is that they absorb magic. The "bigger on the inside" effect is actually not native to the trees, but a result of what happens when they soak up the eldritch power of spells cast upon the island. For every spell cast, there's, say, a 10% chance that a nearby tree just eats it up. The elves lived with it because it was also a convenient place, but the PC's don't have the same level of backup that an elf civilization did. They suddenly find their spells going dry or their potions getting drained when they prop their packs against a nearby tree.

Again, be careful with that one and not too heavy handed. Players get cranky when you "punish" them by taking away their flashy things.:smalltongue:

draken50
2014-06-11, 09:37 AM
I've found one of the better parts of horrific stuff is the way people react to it.

A setting I used was a snowed in village. Shortly after the party arrived, they found themselves snowed in. The villagers were nice and friendly offering them places to stay, and they told stories and the like and everyone became friends. Then things started to happen, slaughtered animals and the like.

The system I was running makes use of horror elements, but you could have local superstitions or the like.

Ultimately, the party had to deal with villagers growing more and more paranoid as bodies appeared and a few npcs were found plainly corrupted , and just as the party had a good idea of what was going on they found themselves hunted by the villagers they were trying to save.

And as the DM it was fun and tough to watch the players struggle with what to do when a character they liked and wanted to save came after them with a Hammer. Especially because they couldn't be sure if they had already been marked by evil.

For best results I had the players do some minor hero type questing from the village, giving more time to build attachments to the npcs. The system as well involved horror creatures that mark people, and often spread their corruption around those the marked people meet. The horrors never really behave the same though, and most of the population knows very little about them aside from that they exist and that they are terrifying.

Silus
2014-06-11, 10:46 AM
Ok, so a few more questions:

1) Should I bother statting up the Slender Man type creature or just have him run on a vague "rule of scary"?

2) I was considering having said monster mess with Divination type spells in a way akin to how The Operator in Marble Hornets messes with videos and photos. Like a True Seeing or Detect <Alignment> spell would start fritzing out or overreacting (True Seeing might work as intended, but in seeing the monster, and the monster knowing you see it and letting you know it knows. Detect <Alignment> may start cropping up with false signals and such). Thoughts?

3) Any suggestions to sort of change up the obvious Slenderman thing? Throw in some things that swerve away from the established mythos and make the players go "That's...not right...".

4) Any suggestions on buildup for the whole "Coughing + headaches = high chance of Slender proxy"? How about the reveal (I'm kinda stumped on this as well)?

Callos_DeTerran
2014-06-11, 11:38 AM
Hm...I run a lot of horror games IRL and most of them have been in the d20 systems, surprising as that is, including D&D and Pathfinder...important thing is...do NOT include fear mechanics or sanity rules, then the character's fear/sanity just becomes another statistic to the player. Supernatural fear? Sure, still use it. Fear auras, phantasmal killers, etc. are all good...but don't overplay them. After the third or so time that you tell your players 'you feel scared' they won't be scared themselves, they'll just wonder how to play it.

Advice for Dealing with the Players:

1) Dress things up in the abnormal. It's perfectly fine to use regular monsters, but don't make them look like regular monsters but this can honestly be a little difficult. I've used this trick before and slipped up and called a reskinned monster by another name and it deflated the tension from a scene.

2) Target things that are not normally targeted. This is part of the mechanical approach to horror in d20, target things that players hold as sacred...their equipment and stats. One only seems like an inconvenience but you'd be surprised how attached people are to equipment, why do you think rust monsters are so feared? Disenchanters? Anything that does ability damage/level drain?

3) Find the sweet spot for repeat usage. If something happens once then it's just a little weird. If it happens twice or more then it can be a bit creepy...if it happens TOO often then it becomes stale but the important thing to remember is that this sweet spot is different for every group but you'd be surprised how often you can do the same thing with experienced players. Their nonchalance comes from experience with the supposedly unknown and an understanding of how things work and they honestly expect weird things to just happen for no reason...but if they keep happening then they begin to think this might be the new way it's going to work from now on and that can freak them out. Then you change it again. Fear comes from the unfamiliar.

4) Go for the cheap scares...this may sound counter productive for producing a tense atmosphere but in a RPG you have to get your players into the right mood first to buy into the horror premise and oddly enough...you can't just through them into a tense atmosphere and expect them to be worried about it. Tell them it's going to be a horror session, openly place new character sheets on the table 'just in case anyone needs them', have them make seemingly impossible Spot/Listen checks that only just give glimpses of what's really out there (They should succeed on these checks quite often actually, use these chances to feather in details about your beastie but never give the entire picture all at once). Have that noise around the corner just turn out to be a startled animal, things fall over and make noise when there shouldn't be any reason for said thing to fall over in the first place. Are they cheap 'jump' scares? Yeah, but they help to get your players into the right mindset and once you feel like they're really invested in playing a horror game, then you can dial back the cheap scares for a more subtle, frightful atmosphere instead. By that point they'll buy into it.

5) You have experienced players, take advantage of that. I have an extremely genre savvy group in a d20 modern slasher film horror type of game, but I constantly have them on the edge of their seats...because I let them do all the work. Fact is, find out what stories/movies/games/whatever your players find genuinely spooky or creepy and use elements from those games. If your players are as genre savvy as you say they are than they'll pick up on the hints you're laying down real fast...and they won't like it. This is difficult to do and it doesn't work for splatter horror (the extremely gory kind) but it should work for the more Lovecraft-esque 'your fate is inevitable' type of horror because then your players are working with you, not against you. This may seem like contradictory advice but play into their expectations, but only if those expectations come from something that creeps them out or upsets them but, at that point, don't give them an over abundance of details. Let their own minds fill in the blanks. Simple fact is that once a player has sniffed out a genre, trope, or cliche that you're using to spook'em, they're going to inevitably believe that it's going to follow a certain path no matter what they might possibly do. Let them think that, encourage it, it does wonders for providing a sense of helplessness if they think they have a firm understanding of where the plot and story is going but have no way to change what's going to happen. It takes away player agency but good horror gaming is striking the right balance of taking away player agency and giving it to them. If this doesn't seem to be working then that's fine, continue to follow the conventions of what your players expect...then just completely and utterly change the story on them. They'll be off balance and less...knowing of what'll happen. That's what you want.

6) This is to expand upon the above, but it bears it's own point...DON'T do an overabundance of detail. I guarantee you that nothing you come up with will be more personally terrifying for your players then their own personal fears, demons, and nightmares and you tap into those by making your players fill in the details with their own imaginations. Set the mood and the atmosphere but then let them fill in the little details on their own....if they're invested in the horror scenario then their minds will fill in the worst possible details on their own with no prompting of yours. What's even better? Don't contradict what they ask you, even if it's contradictory. Each player will fill in their own 'worst case scenario' but it will get weirder (and in most cases creepier) if they're each right...even when that's impossible, it'll give the impression that this island is warping itself to torment each of them individually or that each of them is seeing something that the others aren't and they'll be much less inclined to trust what another player tells them is happening...it's a simple trick to break up your group's usual teamwork and get them thinking more about themselves...which helps for horror in a group-based game. If the fighter can't trust what the wizard says because they both seem to be seeing different things, you better believe that they'll be less inclined to trust one another. I did this once and the party monk refused to let the cleric touch him to apply combat buffs for the entire horror scenario because he wasn't sure if the cleric was going to buff him or attack him because he had no idea what the cleric was actually seeing.

7) Go rules-lite with a touch of 'killer DM'. Design a bunch of creepy things that have no context that you can drop into the adventure at ANY time. Minor example: At some point during the night, the PCs on watch notice that another PC (who's not on watch) has gotten up and looks to be chewing off their fingernails...If they don't stop the victim of this, then they'll start on their fingers soon after. Don't tell the victim PC or ask what they'll do, just tell them that. Simple, mildly off-putting thing to happen, right? Here's how you make it work though, just ask for a save from the person you intend to make the target of this effect. If it's low then tell them that 'Alright, you don't notice anything' ...and nothing happens. This is important because, gonna be honest, it gives you a little carte blanche to take a little control of the characters from your PCs to make them behave strangely just to enhance the mood and if your PC questions why they're doing this, refer to the low save they made. If they roll high then tell them that they passed...then run the spooky encounter. They will, inevitably, remind you that you said they passed their save (expecting that you had forgotten) and expect you to retcon the scenario. Just look at them at them with as honest a face you can and inform them that they did pass the save, this is the lessened effect. And, again, don't tell them what the full effect would have been...let them fill in the blanks on their own. Rules are the bane of fear in D&D and Pathfinder, they're reassuring and comforting for players to cling to. To put it simply, take that away from them. Have little scenes that you just want to play out and, in a normal session, would require saves, skill checks, etc. etc. to handle and just...run those scenes without them. Once you bring rolls into it you're tossing players a lifeline which is FINE...but time it out. Make it so they're used to not having a save for these little events and again, when they get frustrated with it or used to it, start giving them saves/skill rolls/whatever...but only the extremely barebones versions. Don't give them circumstantial bonuses, time to use buff spells, make them feel like 'all or nothing' rolls that could make or break their characters without a chance to prepare.

8) Get used to improving. Of all types of games, having a set plan or story is going to be your enemy. If you want to make it feel like it's truly futile for your players then you want to create an air of inevitability, like you had actually planned for everything they try to do. Fact is, you simply can't. PCs are a crafty lot so you've got to be able to fake it. Work on your poker face, don't take time to look up rules (try to memorize them beforehand or print out cheatsheets for yourself for quick reference), and most importantly roll with whatever your players do...and just twist it towards the worse possible end. It gives the false impression that they've got no hope and they're outclassed by whatever is on this island or trying to kill them because nothing they're doing is working and seems to have been planned for. Difference is that what they're doing is probably pretty good or inventive...you're just playing along like it's working then deliberately subverting it. You ever hear horror stories about bad DMs who 'play against the players' like it's a competitive game? That is kinda what this is, actively play against your players but don't let on that they're basically trying to fool/beat the DM instead of just boss of this particular story arc. Improv helps with this a lot. I don't plan for my horror games anymore, I just set out a few goals that I'd like to make happen and improv my way towards them based off what my players do, it surprisingly helpful.

Keep in mind that all of these tips would probably, in a regular game, count as bad GMing because they remove player agency to a sometimes uncomfortable degree...and that is bad. The trick is learning to use them with the right touch and understanding that a horror game has literally different expectations then a regular game and different ways of GMing it...even if it's with an otherwise familiar system like D&D. You can't approach it with the same DMing techniques or expectations as normal.

hamlet
2014-06-11, 11:46 AM
Ok, so a few more questions:

1) Should I bother statting up the Slender Man type creature or just have him run on a vague "rule of scary"?

I would actually avoid the Slender Man. It's too well known and in the public zeitgeist right now. Pretty easily picked up, especially if you're not going to play with it.

I would actually go for something old school, but a little out of the common place. If you're playing PF, you can grab Bestiary 4 and pick up some of the Lovecraftian monsters like the Mi-Go and the Elder Things. They're not as well known nowadays except in passing, and they're suitably strange, alien, and creepy. There are others in that book, too. Go for something that they'll have to figure out rather than they'll just remember.




2) I was considering having said monster mess with Divination type spells in a way akin to how The Operator in Marble Hornets messes with videos and photos. Like a True Seeing or Detect <Alignment> spell would start fritzing out or overreacting (True Seeing might work as intended, but in seeing the monster, and the monster knowing you see it and letting you know it knows. Detect <Alignment> may start cropping up with false signals and such). Thoughts?


It could work. He might not have so much "control" of it as he has "divinitory gravity" and he pulls such effects to himself whether he wants to or not. But they also fizzle a bit so you're never quite sure what or where you're looking/seeing. Or maybe, just for fun, it really screws with things and instead of Clairvoiyance giving you distant sight, it actually gives you "far smelling" or "far feeling" or something like that. Something completely unexpected.

Or, even more fun, if your monster is animistic, it puts the diviner into the head of the monster no matter what the spell is. A round or two per level of the spell and you get to see what it's currently looking at, hearing, or whatever. Once they figure out that it works, it can give the PC's a real tool to their advantage. And it gives you a real advantage in frightening them. Perhaps they peek in and discover it's prowling around one of their favorite pet NPC's. Or that it's looking directly at them!




3) Any suggestions to sort of change up the obvious Slenderman thing? Throw in some things that swerve away from the established mythos and make the players go "That's...not right...".


I don't know lots about the Slender Man himself, just that he's ridiculously popular. Again, I'd go for something else. Something unexpected and a little below the popular radar. There are lots of things to go for. Maybe the answer is to thumb through the MM/Bestiary and just figure out a monster you haven't used, or can twist to your liking. Like I said above, the Fairy Folk can get really creepy when you play them to the hilt.




4) Any suggestions on buildup for the whole "Coughing + headaches = high chance of Slender proxy"? How about the reveal (I'm kinda stumped on this as well)?

If it's something popular that they do know as players, then my advice is to simply drop in the clues a bit at a time and not elaborate or belabor it. Just put them out there to be picked up or ignored. Let them put everything together.

If you're inventing whole cloth, then you have to, at some point, provide them with a rough schematic of what to expect. You can salt the whole adventure with clues before and after, but at some point, they're gonna need a blueprint to work from. Like a legend, prophecy, or something. Perhaps going with the above divination thing, if somebody thinks to cast an augury, then they get a little more than they bargained for as the caster goes all wonky and starts reciting a prophecy instead of the usual response.

Qwertystop
2014-06-11, 12:04 PM
Perhaps have monsters that aren't attacking. Not like "it's a perfectly ordinary town that just happens to be populated by zombies doing ordinary-people things," more like "The zombies surround you... they're closing in... and they stop, too closely packed for you to slip out, but not attacking."

Make the monsters wait. Make the players wait. Make the locals' deaths all appear to be of exposure with a warm tent in throwing distance, or of starvation right under an apple tree - then have the monsters show up, pen the characters in, and just... sit there.

Have fun.

Silus
2014-06-11, 12:43 PM
I would actually go for something old school, but a little out of the common place. If you're playing PF, you can grab Bestiary 4 and pick up some of the Lovecraftian monsters like the Mi-Go and the Elder Things. They're not as well known nowadays except in passing, and they're suitably strange, alien, and creepy. There are others in that book, too. Go for something that they'll have to figure out rather than they'll just remember.

I would go more towards Lovecraftian stuff, but the PCs already know that I tend to favor that sort of horror. Honestly that would get more eye rolling from them than Slenderman.

So I just checked out the "Nightmare Creature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/nightmare-creature-cr-1)" template on a whim, and it seems to have everything I could possibly want and more, and due to the "nightmarish" nature of it would allow for plenty of refluffing of the base creature. Tack that onto, say, a Thin Man (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/fey/thin-man) and bam, Slenderman. Maybe add a class level or two, maybe a template, get him up in HD/power or so.


I don't know lots about the Slender Man himself, just that he's ridiculously popular. Again, I'd go for something else. Something unexpected and a little below the popular radar. There are lots of things to go for. Maybe the answer is to thumb through the MM/Bestiary and just figure out a monster you haven't used, or can twist to your liking. Like I said above, the Fairy Folk can get really creepy when you play them to the hilt.

Honestly it's less that I want to use Slenderman proper and more something with that sort of feel. Something that looks "normal" but has a distinct "abnormal quality", such as Slenderman looking like a normal person, except being scary tall and having no face. Tack on a sense of morality or motives that are incomprehensible to normal people and powers built around mind rape and generating paranoia and fear, and you've got kinda what I'm looking for.

Angelalex242
2014-06-11, 01:39 PM
Hmmmm. The other bane of horror is Wealth by Level.

Thus, divide your adventure up into 3 chapters, where the first thing that happens in the first 10 minutes is a Disjunction. Make them roll saving throws for every single magic item they have.

If you can get 15th level characters down to the wealth by level of 5th level characters, you're doing it right. And then send the rust monsters in to eat their now nonmagical stuff.

Red Fel
2014-06-11, 02:05 PM
Hmmmm. The other bane of horror is Wealth by Level.

Thus, divide your adventure up into 3 chapters, where the first thing that happens in the first 10 minutes is a Disjunction. Make them roll saving throws for every single magic item they have.

If you can get 15th level characters down to the wealth by level of 5th level characters, you're doing it right. And then send the rust monsters in to eat their now nonmagical stuff.

I would strongly discourage this, actually. There are few things that can truly anger the players more than taking away their shinies. Injure the PCs, curse them, poison them, transport them to Ravenloft, but don't take the shinies.

The same also holds true for spells, powers, and class abilities. Informing the players their tried and true abilities have stopped working will, at best, disrupt immersion; at worst, it will incite a mutiny at the table. You don't change the rules just because things have gotten spooky.

The trick, instead, is to render their magical arms and armor, their spells and powers, useless. Put them in situations where there is no monster to slay, no visible curse to break, no corpse on which you can use Speak with Dead. Don't rob them of their powers; rob them of the advantage of those powers. That's where horror comes from - not the idea that you're powerless, but the idea that all the power in the world wouldn't make a difference.

Angelalex242
2014-06-11, 03:09 PM
To the contrary. Take the shinies, stomp on them, and when the players complain, say, "You wanted a horror campaign. The mutiny you're throwing looks pretty horrified to me. If you've decided you wish to go back to a normal campaign, you may have your shinies back."

Silus
2014-06-11, 05:53 PM
To the contrary. Take the shinies, stomp on them, and when the players complain, say, "You wanted a horror campaign. The mutiny you're throwing looks pretty horrified to me. If you've decided you wish to go back to a normal campaign, you may have your shinies back."

That...is not really constructive at all.

Thrawn4
2014-06-11, 08:42 PM
Another vote against taking the shinies. It just looks to arbitrary if you do it on purpose. If you can do it in a believable way, however...

On another note:
Fear is created by the lack of control, meaning

-combat is not an option, or at least not a good one. If you can fight something, you are not afraid of it. (How about blocking their special powers because of some McGuffin - they can find out about it later).

-they don't know what they are up to. Knowledge is power and reassuring. (It helps to use graphic descriptions and to use dark hallways where you can't see the entire creature at a glance).

-their experience and belief might be rendered questionable. Are you still awake or is a dream? Do our gods still have power here?


Also, at one point (don't overdo it) you might suddenly raise your voice or use a really loud sound to throw them off, preferably after you just described a disturbing scene (to double the effect).

QuidEst
2014-06-11, 10:44 PM
Honestly it's less that I want to use Slenderman proper and more something with that sort of feel. Something that looks "normal" but has a distinct "abnormal quality", such as Slenderman looking like a normal person, except being scary tall and having no face. Tack on a sense of morality or motives that are incomprehensible to normal people and powers built around mind rape and generating paranoia and fear, and you've got kinda what I'm looking for.
So long as it isn't an obvious copy. :smallsmile: If it is, as a player I'd be thinking about cute little Slendy plushes and video games and new media vs. traditional media.

See what you can do to come up with something that has a similar effect. Dude who opens his mouth, and it's just rows and rows of little spider legs scrabbling like they're trying to pull something in. Or rip off from somewhere else, like the Pale Man from Pan's labyrinth. Modify some weird stuff from Japanese mythology or urban legends.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/owaMoWmD2vE/hqdefault.jpg
http://www.ydm8.com/dy/juzhao/201105/09/panshendemigong3_3.jpg

Silus
2014-06-12, 12:30 PM
So long as it isn't an obvious copy. :smallsmile: If it is, as a player I'd be thinking about cute little Slendy plushes and video games and new media vs. traditional media.

See what you can do to come up with something that has a similar effect. Dude who opens his mouth, and it's just rows and rows of little spider legs scrabbling like they're trying to pull something in. Or rip off from somewhere else, like the Pale Man from Pan's labyrinth. Modify some weird stuff from Japanese mythology or urban legends.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/owaMoWmD2vE/hqdefault.jpg
http://www.ydm8.com/dy/juzhao/201105/09/panshendemigong3_3.jpg

Well I've some time to come up with the creepy guy thing, as my group is just starting a Star Wars game and then we have Hackmaster after that before I run again.

One thing I'm gonna do though is throw in Disenchanters (Refluffed to look like jerking, twitching kinda tortured hairless horses with lamprey mouths and too many eyes) and apply the Amalgam Creature Template to combine Phase Spiders and Rust Monsters (Warping time and space to speed up the rust and decay of metal objects, hopping in and out of reality as they see fit).

Red Fel
2014-06-12, 12:55 PM
One thing I'm gonna do though is throw in Disenchanters (Refluffed to look like jerking, twitching kinda tortured hairless horses with lamprey mouths and too many eyes) and apply the Amalgam Creature Template to combine Phase Spiders and Rust Monsters (Warping time and space to speed up the rust and decay of metal objects, hopping in and out of reality as they see fit).

Again, be careful with these. It's one thing to make the PCs feel powerless; it's another to make them actually powerless. As an aside, the loss of magic items/equipment is going to be felt more profoundly by non-casters than by casters, further increasing the disparity between the two.

Now, if you have Rust Monsters who attack inanimate or unattended objects, or Disenchanters who feed on magical auras rather than the party's magic items, I think it's great. It's a very "The Color Out of Space" thing, with these bizarre creatures slowly draining away the life and vitality of the ambient world around the players. I think that creates an awesome atmosphere of dread and gray. But if they go after the party, you can expect two things. First, you can expect a combat, because the players will fight tooth and nail to protect their shinies or get revenge for them. And combat distracts the players from being afraid. Second, you can expect anger or frustration if the shinies are ruined.

Remember that it's possible to make your players too angry to feel afraid. Be careful not to cross that line. Know your players, and try not to infuriate them.

Silus
2014-06-12, 01:50 PM
Again, be careful with these. It's one thing to make the PCs feel powerless; it's another to make them actually powerless. As an aside, the loss of magic items/equipment is going to be felt more profoundly by non-casters than by casters, further increasing the disparity between the two.

Now, if you have Rust Monsters who attack inanimate or unattended objects, or Disenchanters who feed on magical auras rather than the party's magic items, I think it's great. It's a very "The Color Out of Space" thing, with these bizarre creatures slowly draining away the life and vitality of the ambient world around the players. I think that creates an awesome atmosphere of dread and gray. But if they go after the party, you can expect two things. First, you can expect a combat, because the players will fight tooth and nail to protect their shinies or get revenge for them. And combat distracts the players from being afraid. Second, you can expect anger or frustration if the shinies are ruined.

Remember that it's possible to make your players too angry to feel afraid. Be careful not to cross that line. Know your players, and try not to infuriate them.

I've not thought of anything for the Rust Monsters, but the Disenchanters I'll have hints of a good deal before they show up.

With the trees on the island being kinda sorta magical, the PCs will start finding lamprey like bite marks on the trunks of trees and'll note that the trees seem a little bit more dead than usual. Basically the Disenchanters of the island feed on the magic of the trees, but will nom on buffs and magic items given the chance.

ReaderAt2046
2014-06-14, 07:55 PM
The DM for a one-shot I once was in managed to do this really well.

To cut the preliminary short, our characters had gone out to investigate a ruin, and when we came back, everyone in our town was dead. Initial investigations failed to reveal anything. What we did not know was that the town had become infected with some kind of nanotech that gave everyone first nightmares and then waking dreams. The crucial point (for me), came when I rolled a critical success on a Spot check. The DM pulled me aside and told me that I saw a snake, the same kind of snake I'd been seeing in my dreams, wriggling under the skin of one of my teammates. As you might have guessed, that was a hallucination. But I thought it was real, and I grabbed a butcher's knife and tried to cut it out of my teammate. I ended up getting killed, at which point I found out what was going on.

So, my suggestion would be: If you want to play up the horror, show its aftereffects. Show them a room of dead bodies, horribly mutilated. Have them find diaries full of horrified ranting about monsters, or better yet about how the writer's friends and family have changed.

Another thing you might find interesting are the torivors from the Beyonders series. They are jet-black figures, shaped something like a human with no face. They are essentially indestructible (the only thing in the book that can harm them are their special dueling swords), and incredibly fast and strong. They are magically bound not to harm anyone unless they are first attacked, but if anyone attacks them, they will kill that someone. And that's not even the worst bit. The worst bit? They're telepaths. They can read your mind, and take over your dreams, forcing you to endure nightmares, or simply appearing in your dreams to talk to you. The hero of the book spends a good chunk of time with one of them following him everywhere, tormenting his dreams every night.

Slipperychicken
2014-06-14, 09:04 PM
I was just reading lovecraft talking about writing weird fiction (http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/essays/nwwf.aspx) recently, and these points may be of interest. It's not very long as far as essays go, and this paragraph in particular seems somewhat pertinent to this discussion, and mostly there the bits about dealing with a wondrous or fantastical aspect of a story, the build-up to them, and the way they should be treated.


In writing a weird story I always try very carefully to achieve the right mood and atmosphere, and place the emphasis where it belongs. One cannot, except in immature pulp charlatan–fiction, present an account of impossible, improbable, or inconceivable phenomena as a commonplace narrative of objective acts and conventional emotions. Inconceivable events and conditions have a special handicap to overcome, and this can be accomplished only through the maintenance of a careful realism in every phase of the story except that touching on the one given marvel. This marvel must be treated very impressively and deliberately—with a careful emotional “build-up”—else it will seem flat and unconvincing. Being the principal thing in the story, its mere existence should overshadow the characters and events. But the characters and events must be consistent and natural except where they touch the single marvel. In relation to the central wonder, the characters should shew the same overwhelming emotion which similar characters would shew toward such a wonder in real life. Never have a wonder taken for granted. Even when the characters are supposed to be accustomed to the wonder I try to weave an air of awe and impressiveness corresponding to what the reader should feel. A casual style ruins any serious fantasy.

oudeis
2014-10-27, 06:50 PM
So how did this turn out? What approach(es) did the OP end up using?

Silus
2014-10-27, 07:08 PM
So how did this turn out? What approach(es) did the OP end up using?

'Ello, OP here. I've not gotten the opportunity to put these ideas into action just yet, though I've gotten together a group of (hopefully) less jaded players for a Saturday game starting this week, so hopefully things go well with that.

hamlet
2014-10-28, 09:38 AM
To the contrary. Take the shinies, stomp on them, and when the players complain, say, "You wanted a horror campaign. The mutiny you're throwing looks pretty horrified to me. If you've decided you wish to go back to a normal campaign, you may have your shinies back."

Dude, I'm old school, not shying away from killing characters, but even I wouldn't do that. That's just mean spirited and no DM worth their salt does stuff like that.

Only tournament modules even came within that realm, and even those didn't just jump up and down and stomp on the players for gits and shiggles.

oudeis
2014-11-05, 01:21 PM
'Ello, OP here. I've not gotten the opportunity to put these ideas into action just yet, though I've gotten together a group of (hopefully) less jaded players for a Saturday game starting this week, so hopefully things go well with that.C'mon, man, don't keep us in suspense...


(...unless this is another exercise in heightening tension? :eek:)

Milodiah
2014-11-05, 02:49 PM
Single out individual characters for the various horror things, and discourage OOC conversation about it. When the entire group is there to make their spots and listens, and subsequently discuss what they're perceiving, then you've already lost a fraction of the horror just because they're dealing with it as a group, as human beings are naturally inclined to do.

Perhaps the others won't even believe that character, even though one of the unspoken rules of horror gaming/horror in general is "there is no such thing as hallucinations".

The only thing that will elevate horror from an exercise in scenario-writing to something that will actually affect your players is immersion. If they ever start doing AC/attack/magic calculations for whether or not they think they could beat something or otherwise acting in the typical borderline-metagame manner as the average D&D'er, then you're losing. Which is one of the reasons why I prefer running horror in game systems less complex than 3.5e, like Call of Cthulhu. Players aren't inclined to think in their class roles, their various attack strategies, or in terms of spells known/items held. The closest thing a CoC player usually considers is "do I have a gun right now?"


Also, one thing I make a point of doing that could be a compromise for the "smash-the-shinies" approach is to keep track of their inventories not only in terms of items owned, but where those items are. I know it might not work as well as in CoC, where people have houses and cars in which their things can be left, but my players at least understand that not everything they own is carried on their person at all times. Even if all their possessions are man-portable between them, you can introduce reasonable restrictions on what they're allowed to have on them. Obviously weapon/armor ownership in a D&D world is universally legal, and encouraged, but a sizable town with a professional guard force that's not bordering the Plains of Horrible Torturedeath can certainly say "Look man, we're all for you slaying dragons and stuff, but could you maybe leave that +2 adamantine greataxe of rending in your inn room? It makes people nervous."

Other kit restrictions are perfectly reasonable, even more so than weapon/armor control. Most cities in my setting forbid poisons, items/spells of invisibility, polymorph, and the various disguise spells, and other things that don't have many legal uses.

It'll make them feel a lot more vulnerable without altering their characters. Putting a fighter in normal-people clothes can cut a good 6 or 8 points off their armor class, and giving them a socially-acceptable shortsword or large dagger instead of a huge blood-encrusted magic murderaxe along with that can knock them down to the capabilities of someone half their level.

oxybe
2014-11-05, 05:44 PM
Here is a youtube channel: Extra Credits (https://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz/videos).

They talk about game design, which for the most part is videogame based, but a lot of it is simple theory and application of concepts and is easily applicable to TTRPG design.

Go watch Horror that Lingers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSKtTBjSBg0&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg), Shiver with Antici-pation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyiAR2BXtKU&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg), Why Games do Cthulhu Wrong (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DyRxlvM9VM&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg), Horror Protagonists (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawxkSB13J8&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg), The Beast Macabre (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mHCG4zbCPM&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg).

Do note that D&D, generally speaking, is a game where the characters are supposed to be jumping into action towards the big scary thing with fangs and claws and are equipped to deal with those things. It's also what most players want from the game, so be sure if you're going to be applying some of the horror concepts the EC guys walk about your players are game for it.

Silus
2014-11-06, 02:10 AM
Something I am curious about is how well would tense suspense work instead of straight up horror?

For example, got a spot in the setting I'm running where, at some point, the PC will get stalked by a thing called a Blightning Wolf, a Gargantuan, CR16 mutant insect wolf with lightning SLAs and scary good stealth for its size that may or may not travel in packs (Think the Zinogre from Monster Hunter).

Any suggestions on how to get the feeling right tht te PCs are being hunted by this thing and that it greatly outclasses them? As powerful as the PCs may be then, I want them, on their own, to choose running and hiding as their first option.

Similarly, how would one instill a sense of "nope nope just run" and institute a sort of chase scene thing? Got an idea for an encounter where the PCs trip a security thing and unleash a massive kill-bot (a PF Annihilator robot) that proceeds to chase them all around the complex until they get outside.

Milodiah
2014-11-06, 02:50 AM
Something I am curious about is how well would tense suspense work instead of straight up horror?

For example, got a spot in the setting I'm running where, at some point, the PC will get stalked by a thing called a Blightning Wolf, a Gargantuan, CR16 mutant insect wolf with lightning SLAs and scary good stealth for its size that may or may not travel in packs (Think the Zinogre from Monster Hunter).

Any suggestions on how to get the feeling right tht te PCs are being hunted by this thing and that it greatly outclasses them? As powerful as the PCs may be then, I want them, on their own, to choose running and hiding as their first option.

Similarly, how would one instill a sense of "nope nope just run" and institute a sort of chase scene thing? Got an idea for an encounter where the PCs trip a security thing and unleash a massive kill-bot (a PF Annihilator robot) that proceeds to chase them all around the complex until they get outside.

Don't fully give them a chance to face down with it until it's fully time for it. Eyes watching them around their campfire that melt into the darkness if (when) they try to destroy it. Stumbling upon a farmstead along the way that's been horrendously mauled by the thing(s). Finding the body of some high-up paladin who by all rights should have kicked the thing's ass in one-on-one combat, but didn't.

I had a fellow who had 'gone native' in some really dense woods he used to guide in. Nothing really special about him, just a level 12 or so Scout with levels in Druid and Fist of the Forest, but the things he did...even with a full watch on their campsite, he still managed (as in, through rolls) to infiltrate the perimeter, swipe a majority of their food supplies, and leave a dead, skinned rabbit staring them down when they went to grab breakfast the next morning. Left 'em messages in its blood, too. Fun stuff.

Thrudd
2014-11-07, 02:46 PM
I am of the opinion that horror does not really work in D&D, of any edition. It just isn't the appropriate game for it. At best, you will have players who work hard to immerse themselves and will suspend their meta-game disbelief and play along. But they won't really be affected by the horror, they will just be acting as their characters. The most terrifying thing in D&D is having your character killed and losing all their stuff. Following horror conventions, this is what needs to happen to almost everyone in the party, before the survivor finally either escapes or finds a way to defeat the horror.

Suspense works a little bit better, but again in D&D it is fueled purely by the threat of death for the characters. To instill the idea that they need to run away, a character needs to die or take massive damage on a single round, or have equipment destroyed (as by a rust monster). You can use NPC's with known stats for this, sparingly, but at some point it begs believability if there is always an NPC there and the NPC is always the one who gets killed first. You can have them find information about the creature beforehand, warning of its great power, so when they see it they are afraid to confront it. This doesn't always work, however, so sometimes you still will need to kill someone before they understand how strong it is. You can have them learn that the creature can only be harmed by a specific item or substance, and have it confront them before they are in possession of the required item. This might instill the sense of helplessness and fear you want and lead to some pursuit and evasion. Eventually, of course, you must expect they will seek the required item and go back to defeat the creature. D&D is about solving problems and overcoming challenges through wits, strength, and luck.

Physics_Rook
2014-11-07, 04:17 PM
Switch the stat blocks on monsters (but not their appearances).
Have player defenses (such as HP and saves) progress at a reduced rate.
Place a meta time limit on player decisions throughout the game and during combat.

In the order mentioned.

By switching stat blocks of monsters, you keep your knowing what they're up against, so they have to play more cautiously against the unknown. This keeps the monster encounters from becoming dull, because each encounter the players have, they have to be careful around. This also gives you some potential story hooks regarding these changes to some of the monsters. You can also let the players see the monsters trying to reconcile their abilities with their appearance. Some monsters might become completely incapable of survival, such as a tribe of orcs whose stat block just become that of a aquatic creature immediately suffocating in the air. Other monsters might become rampaging powerhouses of destruction (not a bad idea for major bosses or villains). Don't make all monster A's switched with monster B's, maybe switch some A's with C's or don't switch them at all.

High level chars tend to be able to face down nearly any threat they come across, especially for more experienced players. Because of that, most player groups don't really have any sense of fear or apprehension when facing monsters. The sheer power of their stats, action economy, and out of game time to discuss plans before or even during battle give them both a huge advantage and break in verisimilitude over the game. Reducing only their defenses forces them to player more carefully, but let's them keep their offensive strength when fighting. Alternatively, instead of straight taking away their hitpoints, you can shift the marker for where they hit unconsciousness instead (probably more fair).

A meta time limit on the game world could be interesting as well. Having the world's day/night cycle rotate for every hour or so of out-of-game time (2 hours for a full day-night cycle), shows the players that the world is literally forced to move forwards (to a known but mysterious doom?). Players who reach the end of the hour would see the world and its inhabitants forced (perhaps self-aware and unwillingly) to progress forwards to the next day or night. Maybe the players and the inhabitants know that a monster attacks the town every night, but as soon as the sun falls, all its inhabitants will still make their way to bed and fall asleep anyway, knowing that they'll be helpless to the next attack. What if a fire breaks out while the towns people are forced by the meta to ignore it and try and sleep in their burning homes?

These methods try not to take away any of the characters abilities to do their cool stuff, but put pressure on them to face the unknown, all while coming to grips with a world that behaves strangely (and in some cases horrifically), without breaking verisimilitude by making the campaign and the world obviously revolve entirely around the PCs. With all these points, the focus is to keep the PCs from feeling like unstoppable heroes, and instead make them feel like they're struggling to keep from being overwhelmed by strange creatures and strange events.

Silus
2014-11-07, 04:49 PM
I am of the opinion that horror does not really work in D&D, of any edition. It just isn't the appropriate game for it. At best, you will have players who work hard to immerse themselves and will suspend their meta-game disbelief and play along. But they won't really be affected by the horror, they will just be acting as their characters. The most terrifying thing in D&D is having your character killed and losing all their stuff. Following horror conventions, this is what needs to happen to almost everyone in the party, before the survivor finally either escapes or finds a way to defeat the horror.

Suspense works a little bit better, but again in D&D it is fueled purely by the threat of death for the characters. To instill the idea that they need to run away, a character needs to die or take massive damage on a single round, or have equipment destroyed (as by a rust monster). You can use NPC's with known stats for this, sparingly, but at some point it begs believability if there is always an NPC there and the NPC is always the one who gets killed first. You can have them find information about the creature beforehand, warning of its great power, so when they see it they are afraid to confront it. This doesn't always work, however, so sometimes you still will need to kill someone before they understand how strong it is. You can have them learn that the creature can only be harmed by a specific item or substance, and have it confront them before they are in possession of the required item. This might instill the sense of helplessness and fear you want and lead to some pursuit and evasion. Eventually, of course, you must expect they will seek the required item and go back to defeat the creature. D&D is about solving problems and overcoming challenges through wits, strength, and luck.

What of sudden dread and realization of "Oh crap we're screwed"?

Example: The party find a city in the mountains that looks abandoned with the skies strangely overcast for miles about. The streets and buildings are empty, there's no sign of life barring plants, nor rats or other wild animals. The players think "Oh sweet, salvage!" and begin looting the city. They start hitting chilly spots but, as the city is in the mountains with no direct sunlight, a little chill here or there is to be expected. They meet up in the city square and one of the PCs mentions that they have a Control Weather spell prepped for reasons. At the urging of the other PCs, the spell is cast and the clouds part, letting in the sunshine.

The sunlight also reveals the shadows of hundreds of people (In a Metro 2033 ghost sort of way). And guess what? When the PCs see the shadows, the shadows see the PCs.

Thrudd
2014-11-07, 09:15 PM
What of sudden dread and realization of "Oh crap we're screwed"?

Example: The party find a city in the mountains that looks abandoned with the skies strangely overcast for miles about. The streets and buildings are empty, there's no sign of life barring plants, nor rats or other wild animals. The players think "Oh sweet, salvage!" and begin looting the city. They start hitting chilly spots but, as the city is in the mountains with no direct sunlight, a little chill here or there is to be expected. They meet up in the city square and one of the PCs mentions that they have a Control Weather spell prepped for reasons. At the urging of the other PCs, the spell is cast and the clouds part, letting in the sunshine.

The sunlight also reveals the shadows of hundreds of people (In a Metro 2033 ghost sort of way). And guess what? When the PCs see the shadows, the shadows see the PCs.

Yeah, that's a cool scene. The sudden dread, however, is the same as that experienced in every dungeon. D&D does have a level of suspense involved. The players are always in dreadful anticipation of the next wandering monster or what is behind the next door. They could be ambushed at any time and characters killed. A powerful monster appears and everyone runs. If you want to heighten the players dread and suspense, they need to know that their characters are in danger of being killed and or losing everything, and you occasionally need to follow through with allowing them to lose if the dice dictate it. They will lose their dread quickly if everything seems scary but never actually does any permanent damage.

Using unfamiliar monsters and traps, populating your locations and wandering monster tables with a higher percentage of very difficult and overwhelming threats, and not hesitating to let characters die ignominiously, are all ways to heighten the suspense and dread in your campaign. Of course, this backfires if it is too hard all the time and the players get discouraged. Unless it is a one shot, you need to spread out the dread.

Nagash
2014-11-08, 08:49 AM
Well less "experienced" and more "Oh we see where this is going and we're not really scared". Annoyingly genre savvy players more or less.

Anyway, so I'm working on a new section for my little homebrew world and thought "Wow, this place would be pretty nifty to run a horror themed game in." The short version, a large haunted island covered in mists and evergreen trees with the ruins of an Elven nation scattered over it. Haunted in less of the "Oooooo ghoooooosts" and more like "There's something watching us from out in the mists".

So I'm a bit rusty at the whole horror thing and was wondering if anyone had any tips for creating an atmosphere of horror and extreme paranoia without having to resort to "Big'ol monster's gonna get'cha!" and the sort of Call of Cthulhu "Your character is gonna die anyway" thing.

Details on the current campaign plan will be expounded upon on request.

Edit: One thing I do plan to do is have a LOT of notes prepped with either personal creepy "You notice this thing but the others don't" or just stage directions to throw off the other players, like:

Text individual players clues.

If you hand them a piece of paper in front of everyone then they all know that something is going on.

Shoot that player a quick text with what they found and no one knows anything. That text could be from anyone.

I use a trick where I'll say "hmm let me think about that, gotta hit the head real quick" and then text the player what they found. If they share it, then they share it, but its gonna come from their words, just like real life. Not a perfect GM description everyone heard. And if they dont share it, well then the rest of the group thinks they found nothing.