Robbing party members

[SliceandDiceKid]

I am just curious about stealing from other party members. Using notecards to inform the DM of a conspiracy, then setting up a situation and bluffing to the party member that X occurred. Then possibly even providing "charity" to further sell the scenario to the victim.

What is y'all's experience with this in the past?

Do you have any advice on the topic?

[nedz]

Different groups run this differently, so talk to your DM about the mechanics.

Also, many groups will take a dim view of this — but you know your group and we don't so YMMV.

[Red Fel]

I am just curious about stealing from other party members. Using notecards to inform the DM of a conspiracy, then setting up a situation and bluffing to the party member that X occurred. Then possibly even providing "charity" to further sell the scenario to the victim.

What is y'all's experience with this in the past?

Do you have any advice on the topic?

Generally speaking? Horrible idea.

There are some groups where this might be tolerated. Some where it might be found humorous. Others where it might even be expected.

But as a general rule? Stealing from the party is like putting the party under a curse, or controlling the party, or selling the party into slavery, or deliberately getting the party thrown into jail - it's a form of PvP that doesn't involve actually killing the party. It's close enough that it can hurt feelings, but not so close as to justify when they turn around and kill your PC for it. Which is, frankly, worse - at least if they could murder you they'd feel better. Instead it just leads to pent-up frustration.

Stealing is particularly bad for a different reason. People get attached to their items. That +2 Flaming Longsword the Fighter's had for five levels? He'd be less upset if a Drider straight-up murdered him than if a Rust Monster ate that sword. He'd pitch a fit if it involved the Rust Monster.

It's one thing to attack the character. The character can recover. There are spells to cure diseases, lift curses, reattach limbs, regrow hair, but stealing an item is just cruel.

[Xerlith]

This could be twisted in a (maybe) funny way on a, say, factotum/artificer, that steals his party member's equipment, then tweaks it secretly and gives it back, "upgraded" in a way that is not always appropriate (Vampiric Holy sword for the Paladin! Speed weapon for the Duskblade! Frost burst for the Pyrokineticist!). But this, too, would have to be done tastefully and with moderation (taking your frontliner's best weapon and adding a worthless property would probably NOT be appreciated).

[JusticeZero]

Right. The mechanical part isn't too hard. The practical side is that thieves know that that's the way to become a corpse. You make more in a day with these guys than most of your colleagues will see in their lifetime, and it just keeps getting better and better on a compounding scale as you level. Why would you mess with that for asmall payout?

[weckar]

I would personally veto any plan that involves using a social skill on another party member, but that's just me.

[SliceandDiceKid]

There is no intention to take items, merely an amount of gold.

And we will do it in such a way that he will (player) completely believe it or will know entirely what happened. And we're about to sell a stolen object for money. So it's not like he'll be screwed. I'm aware of party politics, but to role play my character, I'm kind of obligated to relieve him of his excess wealth, and when presented with the opportunity by another to conspire to acquire wealth, I feel like this is what I'd do.

[JusticeZero]

Once again: Thieves know that this is the way to become a corpse. you don't get much benefit out of it, and WHEN (not if) they find out, you will become a corpse and lose all your gold. You might have ideas that when you retire, you will clean them all out on your way out, but really, do you think you can avoid being found by the wizard and still be able to spend your loot?

[sakuuya]

There is no intention to take items, merely an amount of gold.

And we will do it in such a way that he will (player) completely believe it. And we're about to sell a stolen object for money. So it's not like he'll be screwed.

Theoretically, if the player did find out what you're doing, would he be okay with it OOC? If not, "he won't find out" is not a good reason to go forward with your plan. Best laid schemes and all that.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Theoretically, if the player did find out what you're doing, would he be okay with it OOC? If not, "he won't find out" is not a good reason to go forward with your plan. Best laid schemes and all that.

I'm not doing it just to do it. My character just met this group. The rogue presented me with the opportunity to make some extra money at a wealthy individual's expense. After (this new party) just helped some pirates kill a rich (also, they were nobility, which will undoubtedly lead into plot development) crew and steal their ship, I have set my character on a robin hood-like path, with emphasis on inspiring others to throw off oppression and relieving the wealthy of their heavy burdens (usually their purse).

I do appreciate everyone's input. Right now I'm practicing some serious redistribution of wealth. I paid for most of their passage on the ship and am constantly looking for ways to earn more of their trust. Not to take advantage of them, but to help secure their loyalty when I might need a favor.

Edit: admittedly, I AM taking advantage of one party member to curry favor with a more skilled party member.

[hymer]

I [...] am constantly looking for ways to earn more of their trust.

Have you considered that this could be a test of your loyalty? 'Will he betray a member of the group for money' sort of thing.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Have you considered that this could be a test of your loyalty? 'Will he betray a member of the group for money' sort of thing.

No. I had not considered it. Mostly because the individual (player) and I get along very well. But it's a good point. Though I could diplomacy my way out of a bad situation if that's the case. Also, if I fail the dip check, I'll using social recovery to bluff it.

[hymer]

You guys may play it differently, but Diplomacy has no effect on PCs - or players for that matter. Even if you can use it to dictate to other players how their PCs feel towards your PC, there are other ways in the game to find out the actual truth; perhaps or perhaps not available to your victim/examiners.

[Brookshw]

No. I had not considered it. Mostly because the individual (player) and I get along very well. But it's a good point. Though I could diplomacy my way out of a bad situation if that's the case. Also, if I fail the dip check, I'll using social recovery to bluff it.

If I'm understanding you correctly, no, you can't actually diplomacize another player (in game).

As has been said already most groups heavily frown on this and an out of game discussion could only help avoid potential problems. If they're not cool with it then I'd urge you to decide differently.

[SliceandDiceKid]

You guys may play it differently, but Diplomacy has no effect on PCs - or players for that matter. Even if you can use it to dictate to other players how their PCs feel towards your PC, there are other ways in the game to find out the actual truth; perhaps or perhaps not available to your victim/examiners.

Ah! Thank you! I don't know how we have overlooked this in the past. Is there anything to keep from bluffing a PC? I didn't see it explicitly written like I saw it in diplomacy.

[The Glyphstone]

If I'm understanding you correctly, no, you can't actually diplomacize another player (in game).

As has been said already most groups heavily frown on this and an out of game discussion could only help avoid potential problems. If they're not cool with it then I'd urge you to decide differently.

It is, explicitly, the only social skill that specifies non-player characters as its target. So yeah, diplomacy cannot be used on other PCs.

And echoing the 'this is a terrible idea' sentiment. It always is, both on an IC and OOC level for the reasons given. Even Kender, the most utterly despised creatures in D&D and literal compulsive kleptomaniacs (these two factors are closely related, hint hint hint), steal useless junk more often than actual valuable money/items.

[HammeredWharf]

Bluff can be used on party members.


to role play my character, I'm kind of obligated to relieve him of his excess wealth, and when presented with the opportunity by another to conspire to acquire wealth, I feel like this is what I'd do.

That's a bad reason. It's your character, not a real person. Make up a motivation that doesn't annoy your party members.

[hymer]

Is there anything to keep from bluffing a PC?
Bluff has a duration of 'usually 1 round or less (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm)', which makes it a lot weaker than a lot of people often think. When trying to not get caught at fibbing, this is all it does: Keeps you from getting caught outright. Not getting caught is not the same as the one using Sense Motive believing in you, just like a succesful Hide in the nearest bush does not mean PCs or NPCs lose complete track of you and ignore you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4).

[SliceandDiceKid]

Bluff can be used on party members.



That's a bad reason. It's your character, not a real person. Make up a motivation that doesn't annoy your party members.

It will not be an annoyance. The party is split right now. If things go south, I have a way out. And the victim would be the only one who knew, which would then make loose ends concise, if they existed at all.

[The Grue]

This thread again? :smalltongue:

My most memorably experience with stealing from party members, which I have shared before, I will quote in spoilers below.


There is, in fact, a more elegant solution to stealing from the party.

I recently played a Pathfinder campaign as the party Rogue, where we spent most of our time in the immediate area of the city of Katheer. With DM permission I took the Leadership feat and started setting up a Thieves' Guild to fill a previously empty niche in the city's economy. But of course, my character was an unknown, and without a reputation to fall back on might be seen to be easy pickings for another entrepreneurial individual to muscle him out. On the other hand, having a reputation as a renowned thief has obvious and inconvenient consequences in everyday dealings in the city.

So I took a page from Remington Steele and spent levels 4-7 creating a folk tale, the legend of a master thief from the great city of Absolom. I spent party downtime in taverns rolling Diplomacy and Perform checks spreading tales of his exploits and deeds, careful to make them sound just a little bit fantastical or implausible - tales that were too mundane, too believable would be too easily dismissed as an attempt at misdirection, was my thinking. Anyway it seemed to pay off; level 7 rolled around, and during party downtime my rogue assumed the mantle of this master thief and began building his organization.

I had previously pitched to the party the idea of a guild of thieves as a thing I wanted to do, and convinced them to chip in for startup costs on the basis that the guild assets could be used for the benefit of the party, mainly in information-gathering roles, and that they'd receive dividends from the guild's activities since they were essentially investors. This was unavoidable as my character did not personally have the funds to set up the operation on his own.

Anyway I announced to them that my rogue had been approached by a legendary master thief from Absolom looking to expand his operation, and that my organization would benefit from his reputation. Of course, the master thief required a slice of the guild's profits, say a clean 10-15% off the top. When I brought this up, no one batted an eyelash.

My point is, the question should not be "how do you steal from the party and not have them kill you for it", but "how do you steal from the party without them even suspecting".

[SliceandDiceKid]

I know by posting this I'm jeopardizing my reputation on these boards (whatever state that is in...), but I feel like this is what my character would do. Bad reason or not.

[Cruiser1]

There are spells to cure diseases, lift curses, reattach limbs, regrow hair
Remove Disease, Remove Curse/Break Enchantment, and Regeneration cover the first three of the four above. However what spell in the game can grow or regrow hair?

[Madara]

Most of the people are trying to say that this is one of those scenarios in which your character's actions should be limited by OOC. It really depends on the group, but in the end you're robbing your friends, and that doesn't lead to having fun at the game table.

[SliceandDiceKid]

K I'll take this into consideration.

[aleucard]

I have personal experience with this sort of thing, actually.

We were a low-level party with me, a couple other people, and the 'Chaotic Neutral' Rogue. We repelled a raiding party from a farm near a city, though everyone not us was dead by the time we got there. My character found some personal jewelry and other related things strewn about in the house, and was going to return it to the living family. The aforementioned Rogue, after hearing about my intentions, stole the contents out of the bag and let me go on to try and return it. The DM actually said that the relatives in question weren't offended by it when I brought it up.

That was my last session with them, after the rest of the group didn't see the problem with blatant PVP without warning. I am NOT the only person that has a zero-tolerance policy on buddy-f@#$ers when not in a campaign that specifically permits that sort of thing, and I'm likely to not play such a campaign if given the option. It's the sort of thing that can easily start OOC fights. If you care about the cohesion of the party in the slightest, don't allow this to happen unless if you're A: starting a new campaign and B: explicitly telling all possible players that such antics are allowed. If you do otherwise, you have nobody to blame but yourself when a fight breaks out over this.

[Segev]

My one real experience with this sort of thing is not my most stellar moment as a player, but still is an amusing story from the outside.

I was playing a literally-insane CN cleric of a god of trickery and deception. He had a spell that was basically True Strike but for sleight of hand. One of the players had engaged in RL social combat to convince the DM to let him bring in a character whose apprentice was the same level as the rest of the party. The character himself was half again the party's level (where everybody else was within a level of each other).

Because this high-level (compared to the party) wizard was a bit of a stuffy jerk, my nutsoid priest decided to prank him by stealing a random object from him and planting it on his apprentice. (Used two castings of the spell.)

The player didn't seem all that suspicious even though I took the DM aside to lay out what I was doing, but 5-10 minutes (IRL) later, when he noticed his Candle of Continual Flame missing, he initially shrugged and said, "I pull out another candle and some ruby dust to make anoth--" And then the player, OOC, looked at me, eyes narrowing. "No," he said. "I cast Locate Object; I'm going to kill whoever has it for stealing from me."

I did my best (which isn't very good) innocent look. He cast his spell, and, lo and behold, finds the candle on his apprentice.

Needless to say, the NPC apprentice was merely taken outside and yelled at; the death threat was not followed through on.


However, the change in demeanor when one player came to believe another player had stolen from his character vs. just assuming some random street thief had picked his pocket or that he'd lost it...

That should be a warning to you about engaging in this sort of behavior; the OOC consequences and hard feelings could be severe.

[Cruiser1]

I'd urge you to decide differently.
One of the articles on this site suggests exactly that: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html


Decide to React Differently: Have you ever had a party break down into fighting over the actions of one of their members? Often, intraparty fighting boils down to one player declaring, "That's how my character would react."