Arcane/Divine Spontaneous Caster

[torrasque666]

For once, a 3.5 build question from me.

I plan to build a mix of arcane/divine fixed list spontaneous caster. Mostly because I get choice paralysis when preparing spells. I was planning a Sorcerer 4/Favored Soul 4/Mystic Theruge 10/(Sorc 1/FS 1, can be swapped for something else if it would work better for that last two level dip). I know that I don't get jack for class abilities but that's not my goal with this build. I got a 34 point buy, can buy off LA+2, and given how our DM is throwing things at us, quite possibly soon buy off LA +3.

So, I'm mostly asking for race and/or template advice. I know I need to keep CHA maxed for casting. I was thinking a Nixie due to the potentially soon 3LA buy off, plus it gives me quite a few goodies. Any grafts I should take? We came into a ton of money and our DM just kinda keeps passing it along to the next guy. And considering there is FS, deity advice?

No real limit on sources. After all, if one guy is going to ignore the Campaign Setting, I see no reason why I should either. Just no Dragon as I don't have access to.... well any.

[Grod_The_Giant]

An Illumian (Races of Destiny) Favored Soul 2/Sorcerer 1 can get into the PrC at level 4 by taking Improved Sigil (Krau) (RoD again) at first level and Precocious Apprentice at third. As a bonus, the Krau sigil gives you a flat +2 CL for all spells (up to a max of your level), sidestepping the need for Practiced Caster. After finishing Mystic Theurge... honestly, you might go into Legacy Champion 6/Sorcerer 1 to finish out with 17th level casting on both sides.

As for a template, to take advantage of that free LA+2...Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a)? Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)? Half-Fey?

[torrasque666]

Will either of those feats give me know:religion as a class skill? Because I do need 6 ranks for MT.

[nedz]

It's possible to exchange Knowledge (Arcane) for Knowledge (Religion) on a Favoured Soul — see here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x).

[Rebel7284]

Check out my detailed reply on this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354281-Optimize-a-sorceror-favored-soul

In general, Sorcerer 4/Favored Soul 4/Mystic Theurge X is not worth it as an entry. At 9th level, do you really want to be casting 2nd level spells when Wizards are casting 5th and have more spell slots than you by far? Rangers and paladins are just as good as you at casting then. :)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Will either of those feats give me know:religion as a class skill? Because I do need 6 ranks for MT.
I literally forgot that's how the Favored Soul is written, because it's so **** goofy. nedz's got you covered, though.

[torrasque666]

Check out my detailed reply on this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354281-Optimize-a-sorceror-favored-soul

In general, Sorcerer 4/Favored Soul 4/Mystic Theurge X is not worth it as an entry. At 9th level, do you really want to be casting 2nd level spells when Wizards are casting 5th and have more spell slots than you by far? Rangers and paladins are just as good as you at casting then. :)

What do you advise then for early entry cheese?

[Grod_The_Giant]

What do you advise then for early entry cheese?
See my post? I got you in at level 4, the bare minimum without extreme skill rank cheese.

[torrasque666]

would it be worth it to burn a flaw feat for Education so I can have both the required Knows as permanent class skills?


See my post? I got you in at level 4, the bare minimum without extreme skill rank cheese.

FS 2 doesn't have 2nd levels spells yet though, and Precocious Apprentice only gives one slot for a specific spell. And is required to be taken at 1st level.

[nedz]

would it be worth it to burn a flaw feat for Education so I can have both the required Knows as permanent class skills?

Probably not, but it's up to you.


FS 2 doesn't have 2nd levels spells yet though, and Precocious Apprentice only gives one slot for a specific spell. And is required to be taken at 1st level.

Improve Sigil (Krau) gives you a free Heighten on two spells, PA is not required. Grod was suggesting taking PA on Sorcerer 1 at level 3.

[torrasque666]

Which isn't valid as PA specifically says calls out a 1st level character, not 1st arcane caster level.

[Thanatosia]

An Illumian (Races of Destiny) Favored Soul 2/Sorcerer 1 can get into the PrC at level 4 by taking Improved Sigil (Krau) (RoD again) at first level and Precocious Apprentice at third. As a bonus, the Krau sigil gives you a flat +2 CL for all spells (up to a max of your level), sidestepping the need for Practiced Caster. After finishing Mystic Theurge... honestly, you might go into Legacy Champion 6/Sorcerer 1 to finish out with 17th level casting on both sides.
How does this method meet the skillrank requirements of Mystic Thurge? You have to take level 3 as either a Sorceror, who does not get Knowledge Religion as a class skill (thus making you unable to buy your 6th rank at lv3), or Divine Soul who also does not normally get Knowlege Religion as a class skill - Erata lets you get it as one, but only by giving up Knowledge (Arcana) wich puts you in the same predicament of not being able to buy your 6th rank of Knowledge(Arcana) by level 3.

[torrasque666]

How does this method meet the skillrank requirements of Mystic Thurge? You have to take level 3 as either a Sorceror, who does not get Knowledge Religion as a class skill (thus making you unable to buy your 6th rank at lv3), or Divine Soul who also does not normally get Knowlege Religion as a class skill - Erata lets you get it as one, but only by giving up Knowledge (Arcana) wich puts you in the same predicament of not being able to buy your 6th rank of Knowledge(Arcana) by level 3.

Hence why I burned a flaw feat on Education. Gives all Knowledges as class skills.

[nedz]

How does this method meet the skillrank requirements of Mystic Thurge? You have to take level 3 as either a Sorceror, who does not get Knowledge Religion as a class skill (thus making you unable to buy your 6th rank at lv3), or Divine Soul who also does not normally get Knowlege Religion as a class skill - Erata lets you get it as one, but only by giving up Knowledge (Arcana) wich puts you in the same predicament of not being able to buy your 6th rank of Knowledge(Arcana) by level 3.

FS gives Knowledge (Religion), Sorcerer gives Knowledge (Arcana) so your max ranks in both, at level 3, is 6

Now you may have to juggle the skill points a bit.
1st FS 1: Knowledge (Religion) 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 2 CC
2nd FS 2: Knowledge (Religion) +1
3rd Sorc 1: Knowledge (Religion) +1 (cc) Knowledge (Arcana) +4

Which is problematic.

1st FS 1: Knowledge (Religion) 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 2 CC
2nd Sorc 1: Knowledge (Arcana) +3
3rd FS 2: Knowledge (Religion) +2 Knowledge (Arcana) +1 (cc)

It seems you need Int 14 — maybe Education is worthwhile, though since Illuminum are Humanoid (human) you could take Able Learner instead.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Check out my detailed reply on this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?354281-Optimize-a-sorceror-favored-soul

In general, Sorcerer 4/Favored Soul 4/Mystic Theurge X is not worth it as an entry. At 9th level, do you really want to be casting 2nd level spells when Wizards are casting 5th and have more spell slots than you by far? Rangers and paladins are just as good as you at casting then. :)

What do you advise then for early entry cheese?

Did you see my suggestion in that thread? I'll repeat it here for you:

Go Favored Soul 1/ Bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Mystic Theurge 10, with Sanctum Spell. Bloodline levels don't increase your character level, but they do increase your caster level in both classes as well as your max skill ranks. As a 1st level character, once you gain 1,000 xp you gain a level, if you gain a bloodline level you're still considered a 1st level character because it doesn't increase your character level. That means you only need another 1,000 xp to gain your next level, and from that point on your total xp will need to be 1,000 higher than normal to gain another level. The only alternative to this is that at 1,000 xp you gain a bloodline level, it doesn't increase your character level, since you're 1st level with 1,000 xp you gain a level and the bloodline level ends up being free.

If you use Bamboo Spirit Folk from OA for your race and pick up Knowledge Devotion or similar to get Kn: Nature as a class skill, you can finish with Arcane Hierophant and have 19th level spellcasting in each class at a caster level of 20th at ECL 20. Don't forget that Favored Soul gets Kn: Religion as a class skill (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x).

[Rebel7284]

I think Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten spell is less cheesy than Sanctum Spell, but either works under certain interpretations.

[Gemini476]

I think Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten spell is less cheesy than Sanctum Spell, but either works under certain interpretations.

Not to mention more useful as a Theurge, since you can spend two Favored Soul slots to cast a Sorcerer spell you know of one level higher.
I think.

Does that work?

[torrasque666]

I think Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten spell is less cheesy than Sanctum Spell, but either works under certain interpretations.

I don't think it qualifies. Without a higher level spell known you can't use it and therefor doesn't grant you the ability to cast 2nd level spells.
Scratch that, missed the part about Heighten.


Not to mention more useful as a Theurge, since you can spend two Favored Soul slots to cast a Sorcerer spell you know of one level higher.
I think.

Does that work?

By reading, it should. It never specifies that they have to be from the same list/pool.

[Thanatosia]

FS gives Knowledge (Religion), Sorcerer gives Knowledge (Arcana) so your max ranks in both, at level 3, is 6
It's not that simple sadly. At level 3, you can have a max rank of 6 in a class skill, but you cannot raise a Cross-class skill to 6 in the class you take at level 3. Just because you took a class at level 2 does'nt mean you can raise any of it's class skills to 6 at level 3 if you take a different class that uses different class skills. So you're stuck with either taking Sorceror as your lv3 class which means you can get arcana at 6 but not religion, or you take Favored Soul as your lv3 class which makes you chose between Arcana or Religion (but not both) at 6, but the other can't be raised to 6.

Because you can only chose one of your classes at level 3, and because both classes only give one of the 2 skills as a class skill, and you need a 6 in BOTH skills to qualify for MT at lv4, it doesn't matter what your INT score is or how many skillpoints you recieve, it's impossible to qualify for MT by level 4 unless you use a feat or otherwise find a way to add Religion to either the Sorceror or Favored Soul skill lists (without giving up Knowledge Arcana as the Erata option allows).

The best option is just to sweet talk your DM into adding Religion to Favored Soul without making him give up Arcana, which I find a lot of DMs are open to, but it's diffinately not RAW, and given the erata, not RAI either. Failing that, Education or Able Learner are the best options I know of, but both are feat taxes and I'd hate to give up feats if I dont have to for this kind of character.

[Rebel7284]

It's not that simple sadly. At level 3, you can have a max rank of 6 in a class skill, but you cannot raise a Cross-class skill to 6 in the class you take at level 3. Just because you took a class at level 2 does'nt mean you can raise any of it's class skills to 6 at level 3 if you take a different class that uses different class skills. So you're stuck with either taking Sorceror as your lv3 class which means you can get arcana at 6 but not religion, or you take Favored Soul as your lv3 class which makes you chose between Arcana or Religion (but not both) at 6, but the other can't be raised to 6.

Because you can only chose one of your classes at level 3, and because both classes only give one of the 2 skills as a class skill, and you need a 6 in BOTH skills to qualify for MT at lv4, it doesn't matter what your INT score is or how many skillpoints you recieve, it's impossible to qualify for MT by level 4 unless you use a feat or otherwise find a way to add Religion to either the Sorceror or Favored Soul skill lists (without giving up Knowledge Arcana as the Erata option allows).

The best option is just to sweet talk your DM into adding Religion to Favored Soul without making him give up Arcana, which I find a lot of DMs are open to, but it's diffinately not RAW, and given the erata, not RAI either. Failing that, Education or Able Learner are the best options I know of, but both are feat taxes and I'd hate to give up feats if I dont have to for this kind of character.

This is incorrect, the skill cap for a skill that was a class skill at ANY point in your career stays at your level +3

[torrasque666]

This is incorrect, the skill cap for a skill that was a class skill at ANY point in your career stays at your level +3

Source? Because I'm not seeing anything like that in the SRD, which is where I would imagine this was covered.

[dextercorvia]

Source? Because I'm not seeing anything like that in the SRD, which is where I would imagine this was covered.

I believe it is in the section that talks about the process of leveling up a character which was not included in the SRD.

Nope, found it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm)


Skills

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

[nedz]

OK, so a couple of you don't know how skills work for multi-class characters. It's a common error.
dextercorvia has quoted the relevant rules section.

You still pay double for skills which are not class skills for the class you are actually taking a level in at the time, but the points cap is as quoted.