[3.5] Help with Two-weapon Warblade

[dgmello]

I was impressed when I saw threads about D&D 3.5, I thought everyone had moved to other systems already, so I am going to ask for a little help.

We are starting a campaign with just 2 players (maybe some more along the way, but only 2 sure for every gamming session).
One of the players very unexperienced, I think he can handle himself after some training, but I wouldn’t trust him to a lot of spells right now.

He asked for two-weapon fighting, and because the group is so small we have to be sure it is not a waste of space and we are avoiding tier 1 classes and too much cheese for this game. (I know two-weapon in general is not a good choice but as he wants to role this kind of character, I will try to help it become viable)
I thought a Warblade with kukris could do the trick, but I have no experience with it, and as we are avoiding some controversial rules, the standard Crit-fishing builds are out of question (no Aptitude Kukri Lightning Mages / Snap Kick / Disciple of Dispater) and we are starting at low level, so it has to be playable all through.

Do anyone used Double Hit, from Miniatures Handbook, to increase number of attacks?
I have never seen it in this kind of build, but I think it can work nicely, when other tricks are not allowed.

My first try was with Warblade 20, feats as follows:
1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Human: Weapon Finesse
Flaw: Dodge
Flaw: Combat Expertise
3: Karmic Strike
Warblade 5: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9: Double Hit
Warblade 9: Ironheart Aura
12: Stormguard Warrior
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Ability scores will be 32 point buy, and I would like suggestions.
Race I thought about human for the feat and favored class (if he is to multiclass), but it is not set in stone.
If anyone has a suggestion of good template with 1 or 2 LA, I would appreciate, because we will be using LA buyoff, so it is not that big a deal.

I know Blood in the Water is not reliable, but is it enough for the damage until he get Stormguard Warrior?
And how would Double Hit synergize with Stormguard Warrior? I think Channel the Storm will not work well, but Combat Rhythm would.

I have read some handbooks, but any suggestion of Maneuvers and Stances would be helpful too.

Is it worth to take 3 levels of swashbuckler for damage and a feat?
What about 2 fighter levels to free a couple of feats and bring Stormguard Warrior to level 6?
Is it worth to take Bloodclaw Master and invest in strength? What should be the ability scores?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Sith_Happens]

You're taking Stormguard Warrior six levels too late. It's the single best source of damage available to a dual wielder outside of Sneak Attack, especially if you're grabbing Karmic Strike early, so you need it ASAP even if it means delaying ITWF.

Speaking of Karmic Strike, consider Robilar's Gambit as the 12th level feat so you can Channel the Storm twice per hit you take and once even if they miss.

Next thing is, even with Stormguard Warrior you want to be getting damage from your attribute scores. Best way to do that is either
1. Dip Swordsage to qualify for Shadow Blade. Keep in mind that you'll have to switch from kukris to daggers if you do this.
2. Drop Weapon Finesse, go STR-primary with DEX just high enough to get your offhand attacks, and take 2-3 levels of Bloodclaw Master. This route will lose you a point of BAB, so you'll have to either adjust your later feats or take a Fighter level to stay on track. The upside is that you can use Blood in the Water, which is in fact good.

You haven't said anything about maneuvers, my advice is to avoid standard action strikes (excepting Wolf Fang Strike at early levels) whenever possible, since they conflict with your ability to use both weapons. Make sure to get the boosts from Tiger Claw that give extra attacks, and your first 9th level maneuver should be Time Stands Still. Your first stance should be Punishing Stance, which will keep your damage passable until 6th level when you can get Stormguard Warrior.

Every Warblade should have Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and White Raven Tactics, no exceptions.

Lastly, at some point you want at least one way to move and full attack. Options include Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1, Cleric 1 with Travel Devotion, Sudden Leap, Quicksilver Motion, and Pouncing Charge. If you go with Barbarian, ask your DM if every attack on a pounce gets the bonus damage from Battle Leader's Charge and its upgrades or only the first attack. If the former, then you want those strikes for sure.

[Darrin]

I thought a Warblade with kukris could do the trick, but I have no experience with it, and as we are avoiding some controversial rules, the standard Crit-fishing builds are out of question (no Aptitude Kukri Lightning Mages / Snap Kick / Disciple of Dispater) and we are starting at low level, so it has to be playable all through.

Do anyone used Double Hit, from Miniatures Handbook, to increase number of attacks?


I'm a big fan of Double Hit. More on this later.



My first try was with Warblade 20, feats as follows:
1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Human: Weapon Finesse
Flaw: Dodge
Flaw: Combat Expertise
3: Karmic Strike
Warblade 5: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9: Double Hit
Warblade 9: Ironheart Aura
12: Stormguard Warrior
15: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting


I would ditch Dodge/Combat Expertise/Karmic Strike, move up Ironheart Aura/Stormguard Warrior, and take Robilar's Gambit at 12.

If you really want to keep Karmic Strike, take Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild) instead.



If anyone has a suggestion of good template with 1 or 2 LA, I would appreciate, because we will be using LA buyoff, so it is not that big a deal.


Chameleon (LA +1, FR Underdark) might help with Stormguard Warrior (tongue can make touch attacks for Combat Rhythm).

Insectile (LA +2, Savage Species) would make Blood in the Water a lot easier.



I know Blood in the Water is not reliable, but is it enough for the damage until he get Stormguard Warrior?


I prefer Punishing Stance. You need to crit four times for Blood in the Water to do better damage than Punishing Stance. Also, Blood in the Water is useless against a lot of monster types: constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead.



And how would Double Hit synergize with Stormguard Warrior? I think Channel the Storm will not work well, but Combat Rhythm would.


Let me point out text for you in Channel the Storm (bolded for emphasis):

"On your next turn, you gain a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls for each attack that you refrained from making against the same opponent."

So, +8 attack for each AoO you give up.

Combat Rhythm is more problematic, as it's not clear if you can turn your AoO attacks into touch attacks. If so, then Double Hit is fantastic: turn one AoO into +10 damage?



Is it worth to take 3 levels of swashbuckler for damage and a feat?


No. In point-buy, you're probably better off putting those points into a higher Str.



What about 2 fighter levels to free a couple of feats and bring Stormguard Warrior to level 6?


This may depend on the range of levels the campaign covers. If you are going to spend most of your time in the lower/mid levels, it's probably best to get Stormguard early and actually get a chance to enjoy it. If you think there's going to be a lot more mid/high level play, then holding out for the Warblade 20 capstone might be worth it.

If you want to grab a 3rd level stance, then Warblade 3/Fighter 2/Warblade 1 is a good way to even out the borked stance progression.

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 with the Whirling Frenzy ACF is also quite good when paired up with a Fighter 1 dip.



Is it worth to take Bloodclaw Master and invest in strength? What should be the ability scores?


No. The problem with Bloodclaw Master is you lose +1 BAB just taking a level in it, and although at BCM 3 you do get to reduce the -2 TWF penalty to zero, you might be better off taking three levels of a full BAB class and just taking Weapon Focus. Both builds would have the same attack bonus. Getting to add full Str bonus to your offhand might put BCM slightly ahead, but you're stuck with light Tiger Claw weapons (unless you go with Greataxe + Unarmed Strike).

I like BCM better on Swordsages: you were already losing some BAB anyway, and losing the capstone doesn't hurt quite so much.



I have read some handbooks, but any suggestion of Maneuvers and Stances would be helpful too.


WB1: Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Punishing Stance.
WB2: Steel Wind
WB3: Mountain Hammer
WB4: Leading the Charge, Swap Steel Wind -> Wall of Blades
WB5: Iron Heart Surge
WB6: Swap Wolf Fang Strike -> White Raven Tactics
WB7: Death From Above
WB8: Swap Wall of Blades -> Bounding Assault
WB9: Dancing Mongoose
WB10: Hearing the Air, Swap Death From Above -> Pouncing Charge
WB11: Iron Heart Endurance
WB12: Swap Bounding Assault -> Lion's Roar
WB13: Clarion Call
WB14: Swap Lion's Roar -> Quicksilver Motion
WB15: Raging Mongoose
WB16: Stance of Alacrity, Swap Lion's Roar -> White Raven Hammer
WB17: Time Stands Still
WB18: Swap Iron Heart Endurance -> Mountain Tombstone Strike
WB19: War Master's Charge
WB20: Swap Clarion Call -> Feral Death Blow*

(* Note: I would have preferred Strike of Perfect Clarity here, but the prereqs didn't work out that way. Not swapping would also be fine.)

[dgmello]

I really appreciated the help, thanks.

I’ve never thought of using Karmic Strike and Robilar Gambit together, it is something to think a least.
I thought about ditching Karmic Strike, but the only thing I could think of accomplishing is freeing the Flaws and Human bonus feat, because the requirements of the feats Stormguard Warrior, Improved two-Weapon and Double Hit are all BAB 6+ and I would be able to take none of them. So Expeditious Dodge seems to be decent, I really forgot about it.
Any ideas to replace those low level feats if I ditch Karmic Strike and Weapon Finesse?

About Stormguard Warrior, I needed thoughts of experienced TOB players because I was with the impression it was more important than the two-weapon feats, as you confirmed.
My idea about the Fighter levels was not to pick a 3rd level stance, but to hasten access to the feats with BAB 6 requirement. I would tale Combat Reflexes at in place of Weapon Finese, take 2 levels of Fighter at 6 and 7, change Warblade bonus feat at 5 to Ironheart Aura, take Storguard at 6 and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Double hit as Fighter’s bonus feats at 6 and 7. But this way the only thing I accomplish is getting the abilities sooner, what would only be very relevant if the campaign was to end about level 10 I think.

What I said about Double Hit and Stormguard is that it seemed to me that the second attack from Double Hit is not considered an AoO and if you refrain from the first attack, you do not get the second and as the second attack is not an AoO I wouldn’t be able to refrain from it, am I wrong?

About Blood in The Water, I steel think it is unreliable, but I thought it activated even when you do not inflict extra damage from critical hit. As far as I know, some creatures are immune to the extra damage, not the critical hit itself, so that weapons and abilities with effect on critical a hit (like flaming burst) still work.
I don’t know if the “sight and smell of blood” is so literal…

[Darrin]

I’ve never thought of using Karmic Strike and Robilar Gambit together, it is something to think a least.


Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit + Double Hit is the lynchpin of the Jack B. Quick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031211&postcount=30) build. I'm leery of Karmic Strike because it's so feat-heavy, while Robilar's is easy to pick up after Double Hit because you've already got Combat Reflexes at that point. Take out Karmic and put in Iron Heart Aura/Stormguard earlier, and you can enjoy it in the mid-levels rather than waiting for everything to come together at higher levels.



Any ideas to replace those low level feats if I ditch Karmic Strike and Weapon Finesse?


If you've got room for it, Travel Devotion.



About Stormguard Warrior, I needed thoughts of experienced TOB players because I was with the impression it was more important than the two-weapon feats, as you confirmed.


I'm kinda meh on Stormguard... I guess I'd rather have two straight rounds of TWF instead of "round 1 no damage, round 2 more damage". But not having used it much, I'd be more than happy to defer to someone with more ToB under their belt.



My idea about the Fighter levels was not to pick a 3rd level stance, but to hasten access to the feats with BAB 6 requirement. I would tale Combat Reflexes at in place of Weapon Finese, take 2 levels of Fighter at 6 and 7, change Warblade bonus feat at 5 to Ironheart Aura, take Storguard at 6 and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Double hit as Fighter’s bonus feats at 6 and 7. But this way the only thing I accomplish is getting the abilities sooner, what would only be very relevant if the campaign was to end about level 10 I think.


You can delay Improved TWF with Gloves of the Balanced Hand. If the campaing will end around level 10, then by all means dip fighter and try to get everything working early.



What I said about Double Hit and Stormguard is that it seemed to me that the second attack from Double Hit is not considered an AoO and if you refrain from the first attack, you do not get the second and as the second attack is not an AoO I wouldn’t be able to refrain from it, am I wrong?


That's why I quoted the text, which says you get a bonus for each *attack* you give up, not each AoO you give up. But that's likely just quibbling over legalese. I don't think the ToB designers were aware of Double Hit, and they're probably using the word "attack" to refer to a single "attack of opportunity", without any thought about how one might make multiple attacks on a single AoO. (Now that I think about it... you could probably add Snap Kick, too, for +12 damage on a single AoO, and Karma+Robilar could turn that into +24 damage every time your opponent tries to attack you). This is really "DM's Call" territory.



About Blood in The Water, I steel think it is unreliable, but I thought it activated even when you do not inflict extra damage from critical hit. As far as I know, some creatures are immune to the extra damage, not the critical hit itself, so that weapons and abilities with effect on critical a hit (like flaming burst) still work.
I don’t know if the “sight and smell of blood” is so literal…

My reading is "immune to critical hits" means they are immune to critical hits, not the damage that results from a critical. I see differing opinions on whether Flaming Burst type stuff still works... I'm not sure if there's a forum consensus on this. Looks like it's more of a "DM's Call" kind of thing.

[dgmello]

Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit + Double Hit is the lynchpin of the Jack B. Quick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031211&postcount=30) build. I'm leery of Karmic Strike because it's so feat-heavy, while Robilar's is easy to pick up after Double Hit because you've already got Combat Reflexes at that point. Take out Karmic and put in Iron Heart Aura/Stormguard earlier, and you can enjoy it in the mid-levels rather than waiting for everything to come together at higher levels.
I understand the problem with Karmic Strike, it is 4 feats investment (Combat Reflexes is needed even if it is not a requirement) while Robilar’s Gambit is only 2, but the difference is Karmic Strike has no level requirement, you can pick it at level 1 if you can pick the hole bunch of feats, while Robilar Gambit can’t be picked before level 12, I have to see if the feats investment is worth it to have the ability since say level 3.
The problem with the feats combination is if I ditch Karmic Strike and its 2 requirements, since all of them are at low levels, I can’t take Stormguard, because of its BAB 6 requirement.
Anyway, even if I keep Karmic Strike I think I will bring Stormguard Warrior to level 6, it seems worth it.

While I’m in the subject of low level feats, do you think it is best to keep Weapon Finesse or ditch it an go STR all the way (with minimum DEX+Item to qualify for feats) even without Bloodclaw Master?


If you've got room for it, Travel Devotion.
Great advice, I never bothered because it is 1/day without cleric levels, but I didn’t see it has a duration, I never used it and I thought it was a single turn, 1 minute is a hole fight!


I'm kinda meh on Stormguard... I guess I'd rather have two straight rounds of TWF instead of "round 1 no damage, round 2 more damage". But not having used it much, I'd be more than happy to defer to someone with more ToB under their belt.
I will ask my DM about the Double Hit/Channel the Storm and Combat Rhythm “normal melee
attacks” (I have never seen that “normal”) working with AoO and as such with Double Hit.
If I can use everything together it seems great against hard to Hit, or hard to Damage foes.


You can delay Improved TWF with Gloves of the Balanced Hand. If the campaing will end around level 10, then by all means dip fighter and try to get everything working early.
One more thing I didn’t know, thanks. I don’t know if there is a consensus about using items to qualify for feats, but I will talk to the GM if I can use the gloves to qualify to Double Hit at level 9 (considering I take Stormguard Warrior at 6 in place of Improved TWF), or just to delay Improved TWF anyway.
The level of the campaign is something of a mystery, it depend of various factors, but I will assume it will go until mid to high levels, so no need for the fighter levels I think.


That's why I quoted the text, which says you get a bonus for each *attack* you give up, not each AoO you give up. But that's likely just quibbling over legalese. I don't think the ToB designers were aware of Double Hit, and they're probably using the word "attack" to refer to a single "attack of opportunity", without any thought about how one might make multiple attacks on a single AoO. (Now that I think about it... you could probably add Snap Kick, too, for +12 damage on a single AoO, and Karma+Robilar could turn that into +24 damage every time your opponent tries to attack you). This is really "DM's Call" territory.
I will talk to the DM and see what he thinks about it.
When first I read it, I fixated in the first sentence that says “refrain from making one or more available attacks of opportunity”.


My reading is "immune to critical hits" means they are immune to critical hits, not the damage that results from a critical. I see differing opinions on whether Flaming Burst type stuff still works... I'm not sure if there's a forum consensus on this. Looks like it's more of a "DM's Call" kind of thing.
I thought it was well stablished, but I will talk to my DM.
This is no place to start a discussion, but I think I’ve seen some texts supporting this conclusion, and recently I read part of the chapter on Critical Hits on Rules Compendium “Certain creatures are immune to extra damage from critical hits”, and assumed as such, but reading the entries about critical hits on the MM and DMG it is only mentioned “Not subject to critical hits” or something similar.
About weapon with effects there is no doubt though: take a look at page 222 of the DMG, under “Magic Weapons and Critical Hits” (I will not quote it here because I think it is against the forum rules, that I still didn’t read entirely). I didn’t find reference to it in the SRD.


You're taking Stormguard Warrior six levels too late. It's the single best source of damage available to a dual wielder outside of Sneak Attack, especially if you're grabbing Karmic Strike early, so you need it ASAP even if it means delaying ITWF.
I’ll rearrange the feats to bring Stormguard Warrior to level 6, even if it delay Double Hit, now I can see its potential, even if I’m somewhat uncertain about it.


Speaking of Karmic Strike, consider Robilar's Gambit as the 12th level feat so you can Channel the Storm twice per hit you take and once even if they miss.
I never thought of using them both together because I thought them overlapped, but as it is, if I keep Karmic strike I will consider taking Robilar Gambit at level 12.


Next thing is, even with Stormguard Warrior you want to be getting damage from your attribute scores. Best way to do that is either
1. Dip Swordsage to qualify for Shadow Blade. Keep in mind that you'll have to switch from kukris to daggers if you do this.
2. Drop Weapon Finesse, go STR-primary with DEX just high enough to get your offhand attacks, and take 2-3 levels of Bloodclaw Master. This route will lose you a point of BAB, so you'll have to either adjust your later feats or take a Fighter level to stay on track. The upside is that you can use Blood in the Water, which is in fact good.
Now I became somewhat unsure about Blood in the Water, and I don’t know how much better kukris are without it compared to daggers/assassin stace/ Shadow Blade, so I will really consider the Swordsage dip for it, but I will first try to keep it single class, or at least without other ToB dips.

[dgmello]

Darrin, just yesterday I saw the link to your “TWF OffHandbook” on your signature, and on it the link to the Person_Man’s “Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement”, tanks.
Do you have any other links you think I should have a look?

About the maneuvers, I considered the suggestions from both you and Sith_Happens and now I’m seeing the importance for them not to conflict with the full attack action, it was something I knew, but didn’t properly considered before, as well as the need to pounce or something to be able to always full-attack to keep damage up.

[Darrin]

Darrin, just yesterday I saw the link to your “TWF OffHandbook” on your signature, and on it the link to the Person_Man’s “Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement”, tanks.
Do you have any other links you think I should have a look?


Person_Man is a divine being composed entirely of awesomesauce. I'd recommend looking at his Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026), and of course his X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732) is always worth a look for squeezing a few extra points in from somewhere.

Practical Optimization usually boils down to this:

1) You find some cool feat, PrC, or combo that you think is absolutely fantastic, that completely reawakens your entire interest in RPGs, that keeps you up until 2am in the morning scribbling out "what if" character sheets.

2) You post about your concept on an online forum to get more ideas or make sure it works the way you think it does, and then a long parade of incredibly smart and articulate super-genius optimizers proceed to tell you that your concept is horribly flawed and sub-optimal, and explain that the only way to salvage your build is to rip out that one thing you thought was super-awesome and replace it with something that you would never consider, because it is uncool and soul-less and completely antithetical to what you were trying to accomplish. It is brutal. They have spreadsheets and are using mathematical notation that you need to google just to understand what they're talking about. All you want to do is crawl in a hole and roll on that homebrew Reincarnation table you came up with in the 5th grade.

3) You finally give in, rip out your darling combo and strangle it down to -11 HP. The build works surprisingly better, except for this other thing you thought was really cool and you really wanted to kee-- nope, that has to be ripped out, too. Rinse and repeat.

4) A part of your soul dies, but you finally whittle your build down to something you don't necessarily love but can possibly live with for now. You get a chance to actually play it, and it turns out the super-genius optimizers were right. You're not sure it was worth killing a part of your soul, but then you just solo'ed something that was supposed to be double your CR, so maybe it was. That's when you realize the rest of your group is staring at you out of empty lifeless eyes because you have inadvertently sucked every last drop of hope and enjoyment out of their game, and you realize they are a bunch of knuckle-dragging luddites who think the absolute pinnacle of optimization is a monk taking Vow of Poverty or a wizard filling out all his 4th and 5th level spell slots with nothing but fireball.



About the maneuvers, I considered the suggestions from both you and Sith_Happens and now I’m seeing the importance for them not to conflict with the full attack action, it was something I knew, but didn’t properly considered before, as well as the need to pounce or something to be able to always full-attack to keep damage up.

I like Travel Devotion, but it can be tricky to work in multiple uses per day. Many advocate a dip into Cloistered Cleric, where you can grab that and Knowledge Devotion along with Turn Undead. If you want to keep full BAB, you can grab a level of Soldier of Light (Deities & Demigods) instead. If you want to stick with Warblade 20, see if you can work in taking Travel Devotion 2x or 3x.

[Segev]

Stormguard Warrior's technique is one with a bit of a complicated calculation. You get +5 damage on every attack for each attack that hits.

If you have 1 attack/round, that's +5 damage on round 2 (assuming you hit both times). If your attack does less than 5 hp on average, this is worthwhile; otherwise, it is not.

If you have 2 attacks/round (and can hit with both reliably), that's +20 damage on round 2. If your attacks do less than 10 on average, this is worthwhile.

If you have 3 attacks/round (and can hit with all of them reliably), that's +45 damage on round 2. If your attacks do less than 15 on average, this is worthwhile.


So maybe not all that complicated, after all: If your attacks do less than 5*N damage on average, where N is the number of attacks you successfully land, it is worthwhile. If your attacks do 5*N or more on average, you're probably better off just attacking, because you'll break even and do damage sooner or you'll flat-out do more damage.


(Other considerations, like reliance on charging or stealth to set up special damage conditions, will generally simply render this a poor choice.)

[Wolfsraine]

I'd go rogue/swordsage/swashbuckler. However, with the 32 point buy I'm not sure it'd work at well as mine does. I'll post my stats and levels and you can judge for yourself. Currently level 6 in our campaign and just demolish most things that get thrown our way. I'm sure this will change soon.

Base stats (4d6 dropped the lowest, got to turn 1 stat into an 18), we also use pathfinder races so that might make things a bit different.

16 str
18 dex
12 con
16 int
16 wis
13 chr

After race (tiefling +2 dex,int and -2 chr and stat bump)

16
21
12
18
16
11

Level 1 Rogue 1: Craven (Character level to damage when sneak attacking; multiplies on a crit)
Level 2 Swordsage 1: Maneuvers and Stances; Island of Blades (Main Stance)
Level 3 Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade (Dex to damage)
Level 4 Swashbuckler 2:
Level 5 Swashbuckler 3: Int to damage
Level 6 Rogue 2: Two weapon fighting (Switch this and craven if you are starting at a lower level)

From there get to Rogue 3 asap for the ACF to deal sneak attacks to undead and constructs, its from Unearthed Arcana I believe. After that it's up to you. I'm planning on going for Telflammar Shadowlord so I'm going to have to dip a few levels of fighter for the extra feats.

Currently though, my damage when sneak attacking is 1d6 + 21 + 1d6, 1d6 +15 if not sneak attacking. We also have a marshal in the group that boosts that damage even farther. It gets pretty ridiculous.

Anywho, this character has a good amount of skill points, depending on how you use them, you can be super sneaky, a decent liar or even a diplomat. The low charisma doesn't really matter too much. I have a blast playing this character and play him as an infiltrator/saboteur. I have a really high hide and move silent and several other skills. Most of the time I stealth around setting explosive packs all over the place lol.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm kinda meh on Stormguard... I guess I'd rather have two straight rounds of TWF instead of "round 1 no damage, round 2 more damage". But not having used it much, I'd be more than happy to defer to someone with more ToB under their belt.

Segev's already explained with regards to Combat Rhythm:


Stormguard Warrior's technique is one with a bit of a complicated calculation. You get +5 damage on every attack for each attack that hits.

If you have 1 attack/round, that's +5 damage on round 2 (assuming you hit both times). If your attack does less than 5 hp on average, this is worthwhile; otherwise, it is not.

If you have 2 attacks/round (and can hit with both reliably), that's +20 damage on round 2. If your attacks do less than 10 on average, this is worthwhile.

If you have 3 attacks/round (and can hit with all of them reliably), that's +45 damage on round 2. If your attacks do less than 15 on average, this is worthwhile.


So maybe not all that complicated, after all: If your attacks do less than 5*N damage on average, where N is the number of attacks you successfully land, it is worthwhile. If your attacks do 5*N or more on average, you're probably better off just attacking, because you'll break even and do damage sooner or you'll flat-out do more damage.

That's only most of the story though, you also have to factor in chance-to-hit. The difference between regular and touch attacks is more often huge than not; you can almost always count on getting all 5*N of that bonus damage from Combat Rhythm, while if you attack normally you can probably count on at least one of those attacks missing (iterative penalties are a bitch).

As a dual-wielder, where you have more attacks at the cost of damage-per-hit, you're not going to out pace 5*N*(to-hit adjustment value) without another large source of bonus damage, and you aren't going to get one of those by doing deep into Warblade.

And that's just Combat Rhythm... don't forget you also have Channel the Storm.


While I’m in the subject of low level feats, do you think it is best to keep Weapon Finesse or ditch it an go STR all the way (with minimum DEX+Item to qualify for feats) even without Bloodclaw Master?

If you don't dip for Shadow Blade, then yes. Like I said before, you want more damage than just dice + Stormguard, and DEX doesn't provide that by default.


I will talk to the DM and see what he thinks about it.
When first I read it, I fixated in the first sentence that says “refrain from making one or more available attacks of opportunity”.

Double Hit does not let you double Channel the Storm:


When making an attack of opportunity, you may make an attack with your off hand against the same target at the same time.

If you feed the opportunity to Combat Rhythm then Double Hit never applies, therefore you're still only refraining from one attack.


Now I became somewhat unsure about Blood in the Water, and I don’t know how much better kukris are without it compared to daggers/assassin stace/ Shadow Blade, so I will really consider the Swordsage dip for it, but I will first try to keep it single class, or at least without other ToB dips.

It probably comes down to whether you can spare the feat for Shadow Blade or not.

Keep in mind that

1. Blood in the Water increases attack as well as damage, which means it's going to be better than something that only does a similar amount of damage.

2. Extra damage from Stormguard Warrior is multiplied on a critical hit.

[dgmello]

Double Hit does not let you double Channel the Storm:
If you feed the opportunity to Combat Rhythm then Double Hit never applies, therefore you're still only refraining from one attack.
That is how I see it, as you can see in my first post, but it seems not everyone has the same opinion, I will clarify with my DM how he sees it.
But I think Stormguard Warrior is worth it, at least for the times when the attack is too low to properly hit or the damage is too low hurt (but I will have to pick some maneuvers to help here, like Mountain Hammer to counter DR).
I’ll have to put it to the test to see if it is good to be using constantly, or just on those occasions, because if I start doing too much math I think I’ll end up strangling the character to -11 HP, as Darrin suggested :smalltongue: and end up never playing it.

Thanks for the tip given by Segev, though, I’ll keep that in mind.


If you feed the opportunity to Combat Rhythm then Double Hit never applies, therefore you're still only refraining from one attack.
On the topic of Double Hit/Stormguard Warrior, just to clarify, the Combat Rhythm option, as stated by Darrin, is unclear if it can be used in AoO because of that “normal melee attacks” statement (I’ll have to clarify with DM too), so if Combat Rhythm works only with regular attacks, and if the attack from Double Hit is not an AoO, can’t I use the attack from Double Hit to feed Combat Rhythm?


It probably comes down to whether you can spare the feat for Shadow Blade or not.

Keep in mind that

1. Blood in the Water increases attack as well as damage, which means it's going to be better than something that only does a similar amount of damage.

2. Extra damage from Stormguard Warrior is multiplied on a critical hit.
I’ll think about the Shadow Blade (Swordsage dip+feat).
In your opinion, is Swordsage a better TWFighter than Warblade, or what is good is the combination of the two?

As I said, I’ll have think about Blood in the Water, as I fear it not chaining frequently enough (even with keen kukris), but I’m aware of the desirable attack bonus and the synergy with fixed number bonus on critical hits.
I think if I end up going the Karmic Strike+Robilar Gambit+Double Hit way, the sheer number of attacks per round must make it worth it, but I still don’t know if I will go that path.


Wolfsraine, I’ll consider your suggestions, but I don’t know if it would work well with point buy, if we end up rolling ability scores and the scores are high enough, I’ll have a better look.


Person_Man is a divine being composed entirely of awesomesauce. I'd recommend looking at his Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026), and of course his X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732) is always worth a look for squeezing a few extra points in from somewhere.
Thanks for the links, I’ll read them as soon as I can.


Practical Optimization usually boils down to this:
I know what you mean…
It was a while since I tried to plan a character and because of the support I’m having here I again remember how much I enjoy the process, even considering the frustration of hours and hours of planning wasted when you see your idea doesn’t work.
I’ll have to put some pressure on my friends do make sure this game starts and we once again star playing regularly.

I’m not trying to make a super powerful character, just someone who can make his part well when needed, but not just a bunch of numbers.
I know the character must be cool, but it isn’t cool to see the character you love useless most of the time or barely scrapping by.
I always thought TWF cool, but I thought it was so useless you had to optimize it so much just to be feasible, I confess I had never read so much about it before now. Maybe it is because THF charge is so easy to use, and because almost all my characters were some variation of wizard…


4) A part of your soul dies, but you finally whittle your build down to something you don't necessarily love but can possibly live with for now. You get a chance to actually play it, and it turns out the super-genius optimizers were right. You're not sure it was worth killing a part of your soul, but then you just solo'ed something that was supposed to be double your CR, so maybe it was. That's when you realize the rest of your group is staring at you out of empty lifeless eyes because you have inadvertently sucked every last drop of hope and enjoyment out of their game, and you realize they are a bunch of knuckle-dragging luddites who think the absolute pinnacle of optimization is a monk taking Vow of Poverty or a wizard filling out all his 4th and 5th level spell slots with nothing but fireball.
I hear you!
Sometimes it is hard to separate a smart build from am overpowered optimization, and make a balanced character for a campaign.
I always try to make well informed choices and I value the opinion of more experienced people, but sometimes just by making smart choices you can take all the fun from the others who try their “super combos” without much consideration and end up retiring the character prematurely for being useless, as some of my friends tended to do.
I felt it in the flesh, but at least some of the times it happened I was playing a Wizard and was able to give hope to the people by making the puny humans think they were making a difference.

But seriously, what I really want is not to be part of that “bunch of knuckle-dragging luddites”, some poor schmuck who can’t hold his own when need arises and have to call for divine intervention all the time.


I like Travel Devotion, but it can be tricky to work in multiple uses per day. Many advocate a dip into Cloistered Cleric, where you can grab that and Knowledge Devotion along with Turn Undead. If you want to keep full BAB, you can grab a level of Soldier of Light (Deities & Demigods) instead. If you want to stick with Warblade 20, see if you can work in taking Travel Devotion 2x or 3x.
I’ll consider the dip in Cloistered Cleric after level 6 for Knowledge and Travel Devotion or Soldier of Light, because taking 2 or 3 Travel Devotion feats seem just wrong somehow, but what the hell, maybe I could ditch Karmic Strike for Robilar Gambit, as you suggested, and swap all three feats by Travel Devotion.

[Segev]

Honestly, I think feeding an AoO to Channel the Storm is going to be superior to using that AoO to make a touch attack for Combat Rhythm at least 75% of the time. To make it even possibly better to go with Combat Rhythm, you'd have to be using something like double hit, and you'd have to hit with both touch attacks.

In context, a "normal melee attack" clearly means two things: not a touch attack, and not a ranged attack. "Normal melee attack" is not a system term that unambiguously identifies attacks made during a standard or full attack action and nothing else. Therefore, any normal melee attack - which is really the only kind an AoO allows without extra special rules - will work for it.

However, by feeding the AoO to Channel the Storm, you're getting one less bonus to damage, but +4 to hit (which will help make sure those "real" attacks hit next round)! So barring a really easy-to-hit, really-high-hp enemy, I'd be more likely to Channel the Storm rather than double-hit Combat Rhythm off of an AoO. (If you're already holding a huge +x to damage from Combat Rhythm last round, though, it's worth it to go ahead with the double hit AoO; you're not on a "charging up" round right now anyway so storing up bonuses to hit or damage off of the AoO would be wasted.)

[dgmello]

Thanks Segev, I thought I was missing something, in regards to AoO not being normal attacks.

So only Channel the Storm would have a restriction in what meters for this build, for example I could use Double Hit to make 2 touch attacks for Combat Rhythm in the same opportunity to gain +10 bonus to damage, but if I Channel the Storm, I lose the second attack from Double Hit too, unless my DM considers the attack from double hit as an attack of opportunity, but it’s besides the point.

In general, I agree Channel the Storm is much better, because it is useless to have a pile of bonus to damage, but miss most of the time, but I can clearly see use for Combat Rhythm, and when it’s needed, the potential is even greater because of Double Hit, but as you said, I would have to weigh the +5 bonus against the attack’s normal damage.