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View Full Version : DM Help Systems for badass mage duels (and baddass magic in general)



Eundian
2014-06-11, 06:10 PM
Hello everyone. I've lurked around these forums a bit in the past but today I come to you with a dire question weighing upon me. I have lately realized that mage duels in DnD/Pathfinder are pretty dinky and dull. In a campaign I'm planning on running soon the idea is that everyone is a mage of some sort, and duels are planned to be a common way of settling disputes. I realize that D20 in general is a poor choice for such a campaign, but honestly it's the best system I know for what I have in mind.

I've already checked out Ars Magica and it was a bit too slow and stiff for what I had in mind. I mean c'mon, I wanna GM an adventure, not sitting around looking at charts and calculating how much it will cost to pay the servants to stay around while balancing the finances to accommodate for upgrading the library with a book or two.

White wolf's Mage is a bit tricky as well because I don't wanna spend 3 hours arguing with a player about the possible gain of paradox for the use of some magic or the properties and limits of the time sphere.

And that's why I turn to you. Do you know of any cool/good variant systems for magic or mage duels? Or perhaps an entirely different system I could read up on?

BrokenChord
2014-06-11, 06:31 PM
... I'm sorry, did you read Covenants and no other Ars Magica book? Working with finances is literally entirely optional and actively discouraged for high-fantasy players; says so in a sidebar in the book that introduces the concept of payment in the first place. Those rules are there to help, they're not a required part of the game.

In fact, Core-only Ars Magica with a bit of setting alterations (to avoid the Code so mage battles can be more frequent) sounds like a very good system for what you have in mind, perhaps adding Hedge Magic Revised Edition, the Realms of Power books, and some of the Mysteries books for more caster variation depending on your IRL finances.

Admittedly, if what you're looking for is a game about pulling triggers and seeing who has the best gun every time you encounter another mage, Ars Magica probqbly isn't right for you, as studying magic and enchanting items does take in-game time. Even so, using the most basic form of Troupe-style play would allow everyone to have multiple Magi or their equivalent each, so that some get to adventure and battle while others study and invent.

Removing non-casting classes and using Exalted might yield a positive experience for you, but it's a far fling, because the system is D6 (you wanted d20) and is generally pretty sourcebook-heavy if you want a variety of caster-type characters.

I don't really know what else to suggest. If you look over Ars Magica's magic and spells rules and don't like what you see for any reason other than perhaps complexity, there's a 90% or so chance that no game in existence will satisfy you.

Eundian
2014-06-11, 06:57 PM
... I'm sorry, did you read Covenants and no other Ars Magica book? Working with finances is literally entirely optional and actively discouraged for high-fantasy players; says so in a sidebar in the book that introduces the concept of payment in the first place. Those rules are there to help, they're not a required part of the game.

In fact, Core-only Ars Magica with a bit of setting alterations (to avoid the Code so mage battles can be more frequent) sounds like a very good system for what you have in mind, perhaps adding Hedge Magic Revised Edition, the Realms of Power books, and some of the Mysteries books for more caster variation depending on your IRL finances.

Admittedly, if what you're looking for is a game about pulling triggers and seeing who has the best gun every time you encounter another mage, Ars Magica probqbly isn't right for you, as studying magic and enchanting items does take in-game time. Even so, using the most basic form of Troupe-style play would allow everyone to have multiple Magi or their equivalent each, so that some get to adventure and battle while others study and invent.

Removing non-casting classes and using Exalted might yield a positive experience for you, but it's a far fling, because the system is D6 (you wanted d20) and is generally pretty sourcebook-heavy if you want a variety of caster-type characters.

I don't really know what else to suggest. If you look over Ars Magica's magic and spells rules and don't like what you see for any reason other than perhaps complexity, there's a 90% or so chance that no game in existence will satisfy you.

I never really expressed any specific desire in a d20 system, but it would be the easiest to introduce my group to.

As for the Ars Magica stuff I'll admit that the only campaign of it I played relied mostly (if not only) on the core rules. We were a bunch of magi with a posse tasked with restoring an old fortress. The sessions were mostly bogged down in either managing resources or dealing with the nearby nobles and their pettiness. Not perhaps a perfect introduction to the system. I might take a look at it, but what edition is the best?

As for the suggestion of Exalted I'm confused. Is this something I can't google properly or are you talking about the White Wolf game? Because the impressive magic in that game was very ritualistic, while the charms were more for admittedly badass kung fu action and skill enhancement.

I also just got an interesting (if I do say so myself) idea. If I could find a good system for duels I could perhaps layer that on top of Mutants and Masterminds ,which is an excellent game for many genres, as long as you know what you're doing. I once played a pretty good oWoD Changeling campaign in it for example. Problem with an idea like this is that I need to find that system

Kid Jake
2014-06-11, 07:01 PM
Mutants and Masterminds in general is pretty good for epic fights without outside rules. Let each side start off with a couple of hero points so that they can act outside their turn to counter and such without exhausting themselves and it should make for a pretty tense back and forth.

BrokenChord
2014-06-11, 10:03 PM
Best Ars Magica edition is the 5th edition by far. However, despite being the least acclaimed edition (and for good reason), 4th Edition does technically have one advantage: Every single one of its books is available as PDF entirely for free online. But time is money, so wasting time on a bad game you got for no money isn't really worth it compared to paying for an infinitely better game.

The thing about Ars Magica is that while it's certainly not very multi-purpose as far as genre (nowhere near M&M or GURPS in that regard), it is designed to cover the whole fantasy spectrum. I think your problem with your introduction to the game might have been that your Storyguide was running a very low-fantasy game.

Another thing about Ars Magica is that one of its design functions is catering to stories, not just being a simulation. So if you're playing it right, you skip the things the troupe doesn't find fun; in your case, skip the resource management and mundane politics, you wanna hunt some treasure and fight some dragons. (Though you finding it fun might not mean your character finds it altogether pleasant...)

The flip side of this is that the game has reliable and even interesting but not very in-depth mundane combat rules. Of course, it sounds like you're going for mage vs. mage combats in high abundance in your game, and there are quite in-depth rules regarding that sort of thing, so perhaps the lack of girth for mundanes won't really affect you.

Importantly, the Ars Magica rules do generally assume that you're spending a lot of time doing things other than fighting, healing is difficult (grievous injuries can cripple you for entire seasons), and at least in the unaltered setting people who are too trigger-happy aren't received well. If you're looking for a game about mages who are extremely powerful, do wizardly things, and have a really good magic, combat, and storytelling system in place for games about battling powerful entities (in more or less subtle ways, depending on the character and story) and the consequences resulting from those battles, Ars Magica is probably right for you. If you're looking for a game where you and your adventuring buddies meet up every day to slay monsters, rest off the injuries, gain levels, and focus on the combat itself with the plot being a minor background focus at best, perhaps Ars Magica is less suitable.

At the very least, I heartily recommend giving the 5e core rules a read through. After that, you can form your own opinions. (As a side note, Ars Magica's setting info seems irrelevant to your desires, so you can probably skip the Order of Hermes and Mythic Europe chapters unless you care to know about the setting)

Alberic Strein
2014-06-11, 10:20 PM
"You want to duel, eh? Well, let's see what my little friends have to say about that."

The earth starts to rumble, breaking little rocks like jagged teeth, as an unearthly (eh) laughter starts to echo from beneath your feet.

Why I love Ars Magica in a nutshell. A magic effect you want? You can create it. Up to the finest details. That and shaving by touching your face. Also, duels are nicer when some real weights stands in the balance, which is accumulated through sessions of hard work.

Now, I'm going to sound like a complete and utter retard for that, but you might want to look at the shadowun system for a couple of things. While magic is not the best part of the game, I'm a sucker for the old "I sacrifice my life overcasting an über spell. *insert punchline here*"

Now, I'm doing little more than throwing names up in the air but :

Nephilim : Complex, golden

Runequest : Complex. If you're using MRQII then it's broken, but lots of nice spells throughout the editions. And variety too.

Mage the Ascension : Bend the laws of physic to your will. And then they snap back.

BrokenChord
2014-06-11, 11:46 PM
Not to derail, but I'd like to point Alberic towards a Major Virtue in the Ars Magica core rules called Life-Linked Spontaneous Magic. You can sacrifice varying amounts of energy for more powerful spells and, more importantly, if you're willing to pretty much guarantee your own death, you can use any spell possible within Hermetic guidelines with any amount of Penetration. Sacrificial über attack, indeed.

Red Fel
2014-06-12, 08:37 AM
Having only recently begun studying Pathfinder in earnest, I might nonetheless suggest the Words of Power variant of spellcasting. It's more complicated than ordinary spellcasting, but infinitely more rewarding. Have a handbook (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjY2pwRUNXcG5Ybjg/edit?pli=1).

Basically, it does everything you want. Want to create a spell that launches enemies up into the air and bombards them with blizzards? Boost Repulse + Boost Blizzard. Want to create a beam of fire that targets Will saves instead of Reflex? Burning Flash + Line + Crush Will, and as a bonus it also makes them obedient. Want to just do weird stuff? Terror + Barrier creates a wall of pure fear. Add Slay and now it attacks the Fortitude save instead of Will, and deals pretty potent damage to boot.

Suddenly, magic becomes less about having the right spells (Gate, Shapechange, Miracle) memorized, and more about coming up with clever combinations on the fly.

endoperez
2014-06-12, 01:31 PM
I don't like the certamen (wizard's nonlethal duel) rules for Ars Magica, so I actually came to this thread to find some alternatives. Should've known Ars would be discussed!

BrokenChord
2014-06-12, 02:23 PM
Yeah, I'll admit the Certamen rules could have been done better, but it doesn't look like the OP cares particularly for traditional-format duels where everybody is guaranteed not to die or even actually get hurt. :smalltongue: So it probably won't be much of a problem if he likes the general magic rules.

Jenrock
2014-06-12, 03:04 PM
It's been a while since I've looked over it, but if you could score a copy of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved or Arcana Unearthed, that would be your best bet as far as 3.5-esque goes.

If memory serves, it's actually built on a 3.0 framework, and centers around magic and ritual-using classes.

Other than that, I'll agree with other posters that Ars Magica and M&M are both excellent systems.

QuidEst
2014-06-12, 05:27 PM
It's probably bad that my initial reaction was to picture mage duels in Toon.