Banning Core

[Gemini476]

So, one quickfix that I've seen thrown around a bit regarding the inherent imbalance in the Core classes is to just ban Core entirely and exclusively use classes from outside it.

Tome of Battle + Expanded Psionics Handbook as the new "core" is one idea that I particularly like, although I feel like it's a bit lacking of the clerical type.

As far as I can tell, there are four big archetypes amongst the classes:
The Fighting Man: Big guy what fight good, can kill things faster than they get killed back. Might otherwise be a small guy what blast good.
The Magic-User: Utility caster and battlefield control/debuffer.
The Thief: Skillmonkey and trapmonkey. Overlaps a bit with utility casting, but has a bit of a different niche.
The Priest: Does healing of various sorts (HP and conditions) as well as buffing.

Some classes overlap in these - Druids are mostly FM/M-U, for instance, and several casters can play the Thief - but what good balanced out-of-core options are there that can fill each of these roles?

I've been thinking about whether or not ToB+ToM might be a decent fix as well, but what necessary things can you not do with only those six classes?
Do you need to have a bunch of NPC Healers running around willing to Stone to Flesh players, and is it a good idea to throw the Shugenja into the mix to try to fix that since it's the only Tier 3 healing class?

[Grayson01]

I was thinking about the exact samething honestly. Except I was thinking the completes, TOB, EPS, PHB2, and a few of the others and wondering what a good party combination would be without the "Core Classes".

[Gemini476]

I was thinking about the exact samething honestly. Except I was thinking the completes, TOB, EPS, PHB2, and a few of the others and wondering what a good party combination would be without the "Core Classes".

Well, Warblade+Beguiler+Warmage+Water Shugenja looks like a halfway decent Tier 3-4 party that covers the four classic roles. I don't know how great it would work in practice, but it does look doable.

You really start running into the problem with healing, though, since there aren't very many classes out there that do that. I mean, let's look at Person_Man's Niche Ranking System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System): from the sources you listed, the Favored Soul is a 1 while the Ardent, Shugenja, and Spirit Shaman are 2s in healing. That's in-combat healing, since pretty much anyone can do out-of-combat.

Although that does call another thing to my attention - the Favored Soul. It and the Psion are a bit stronger than everything else on that list. Especially the Samurai and Soulknife.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Finally, we've found a game where psionics are truly more powerful than other options.

I think if you append some restoration spells to various half and 2/3 casting lists you should be fine. Healer is a bunk role; "divine caster" is more thematic and true to the game.

[Amphetryon]

Well, Warblade+Beguiler+Warmage+Water Shugenja looks like a halfway decent Tier 3-4 party that covers the four classic roles. I don't know how great it would work in practice, but it does look doable.

You really start running into the problem with healing, though, since there aren't very many classes out there that do that. I mean, let's look at Person_Man's Niche Ranking System (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314701-Person_Man-s-Niche-Ranking-System): from the sources you listed, the Favored Soul is a 1 while the Ardent, Shugenja, and Spirit Shaman are 2s in healing. That's in-combat healing, since pretty much anyone can do out-of-combat.

Although that does call another thing to my attention - the Favored Soul. It and the Psion are a bit stronger than everything else on that list. Especially the Samurai and Soulknife.

Crusader+Psychic Warrior+Dread Necromancer+Warlock is another configuration that holds up pretty well; if they all take Tomb-Tainted Soul, healing becomes even less of an issue.

[justiceforall]

Is this proposing banning the entire PHB, or just the classes therein?

[BrokenChord]

Is this proposing banning the entire PHB, or just the classes therein?

I would think banning the entire PHB, as this removes the worst horrors on the caster lists from being able to be picked up by other classes with access to those lists (such as Artificer and Archivist).

Banning Core definitely helps the game as a whole (though, of course, feats that are necessary for non-Core feat chains should be kept, and the item-crafting feats too, simply for logical and thematic reasons), though I wouldn't call it enough by itself. Rewriting or banning the Psion may just do it, but I'm not sure about the specifics. An important thing to remember is that since those spells (and presumably Domains) are being lost, some classes (like, say, the OA Shaman) will absolutely PLUMMET tiers.

... Wait, what if we re-imbalance the game this way? :smallsigh:

[Larkas]

If you're not averse to homebrewing, some Healer fix might help cover all the bases. I'm partial to T.G. Oskar's retooling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?133118-Retooling-the-Healer-(Heal-it!-Heal-it!-No-one-wants-to-be-defeated!)) myself. Even without using homebrew, keep in mind that BoED's spells open up some useful stuff for regular Healers. Also, if you follow SpC's advice for expanding the Healer's spell list, you should arrive at something like this (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=blpd9tuniduf2f8kn6a1s7r7d5&topic=8757.0;msg=139804).


Is this proposing banning the entire PHB, or just the classes therein?

The classes, I guess. The game doesn't work if you ban any of the core books (eh, maybe save the MM) wholesale. Those books contain the basic rules of the game, you know.

[Falcon X]

Part of the problem is making people happy and giving them the classes they want. Here's what I did:

Tome of battle for melee classes:
Warblade replaces Fighter
Crusader replaces Paladin
Swordsage (possibly with the unarmed option) replaces Monk or Ranger.

Fixed-List casters replace Sorcerer/Wizard
Dread Necromancer
Beguiler
Warmage

Factotum for rogues
- Homebrew an Assassins feat to boost Cunning Strike, so the Sneak attack lovers are happy.
- Homebrew a Bardic Ability feat that lets you extend your inspiration abilities to others and sustain them. For Bard lovers.

Divine Spellcasters are the hardest. I had to homebrew a bit. I would enforce certain ACFs to make them workable. Here's what I did:
- Druid with Shapeshifting and Druidic Avenger ACFs required. This means it covers the Barbarians role too. Might downgrade spellcasting to look like a Sorcerer's or Spirit Shaman's for good measure.
- Cleric stats, but with the healer's abilities and spells, throwing in Sanctified spells for good measure.

Others:
Other classes are optional, but any tier 3 should be fun. Let them play a Warlock, Dragon Disciple, Binder, or the Psionic classes.

[Gabe the Bard]

What if we just ban everything other than factotum? If everyone plays one, then everyone can heal each other, throw a fireball, disable traps, be a skill monkey, and have the same BAB, so no one would outshine anyone else.

[HammeredWharf]

Banning all T1&2 classes is a better fix in my opinion, but banning Core is definitely doable. I've played in a game like that and it worked fine, but wasn't particularly balanced. In the end, the difference between a psion and a monk isn't noticeably different than that between a wizard and a monk. Sure, the psion is better-balanced, but he still ends up dominating the game.

Non-Core classes that rock too much:
Favored Soul
Archivist
Psion
Sha'ir
Wu Jen
Erudite
Artificer

Also note the following PRCs:
Ur-Priest
Shadowcraft Mage
Rainbow Servant
...and others that turn you into a T1 character.

Sure, by banning Core you get rid of some of the worst offenders, but there's still plenty of broken stuff outside Core. Also, getting rid of Bard is something I dislike, because I think it's one of the best classes in 3.5 both balance and fluff wise.

As for your archetypes:

The Fighting Man: ToB classes, Warmage, Warlock, PsyWar, Knight, Duskblade, etc.
The Magic-User: Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Beguiler, Wu Jen, Psion, etc.
The Thief: Beguiler, Factotum
The Priest: Shugenja, Favored Soul, Artificer, Ardent, Archivist, Spirit Shaman

[Aquillion]

Banning the entire core seems excessive; it's really only necessary to ban T1-T2 classes. Banning all core spells unduly hurts otherwise balanced classes like the Beguiler who rely on them for coverage, and there's no particular reason to ban, say, the Rogue or Bard or Ranger, or most of the core artifacts.

(There are a handful of things you'll need to spot-ban, yes, like Candles of Invocation and Dust of Sneezing and Choking; but there are a few oddball things like that all over the game. The things that really make the core completely broken are its full casters.)

[JusticeZero]

I disagree with your roles. At the core, your roles are "Person who makes enemy HP go away", "Person who prevents your HP from going away", "Person who makes everybody else awesome", and "Person who tells the enemy what they can do". Those don't mesh with the iconic 4.

[Yue Ryong]

Speaking as someone who is currently running a 'coreless' game, the biggest hurdle I've had is in catering for those players who just want to do something simple (I was slightly flummuxed when one of my players asked to play a Fighter). Warlocks are your best friend there, although it's possible to manage with Psions & Binders. Truenamers can work too, if you rework the numbers to work properly.

[Vaz]

Wu Jen and Psion still outclass pretty much any other class concept out there. Sure, it doesn't have the same amount of game breaking tricks, but it doesn't go the full way to fix it. Why not just ban the particular classes which are too powerful or weak, and state alternative options. A Wildshape Ranger for example is not exactly that weak, especially when jumped alongside Master of Many Forms etc.

[Zombimode]

So, one quickfix that I've seen thrown around a bit regarding the inherent imbalance in the Core classes is to just ban Core entirely and exclusively use classes from outside it.

Tome of Battle + Expanded Psionics Handbook as the new "core" is one idea that I particularly like, although I feel like it's a bit lacking of the clerical type.

As far as I can tell, there are four big archetypes amongst the classes:
The Fighting Man: Big guy what fight good, can kill things faster than they get killed back. Might otherwise be a small guy what blast good.
The Magic-User: Utility caster and battlefield control/debuffer.
The Thief: Skillmonkey and trapmonkey. Overlaps a bit with utility casting, but has a bit of a different niche.
The Priest: Does healing of various sorts (HP and conditions) as well as buffing.

Some classes overlap in these - Druids are mostly FM/M-U, for instance, and several casters can play the Thief - but what good balanced out-of-core options are there that can fill each of these roles?

I've been thinking about whether or not ToB+ToM might be a decent fix as well, but what necessary things can you not do with only those six classes?
Do you need to have a bunch of NPC Healers running around willing to Stone to Flesh players, and is it a good idea to throw the Shugenja into the mix to try to fix that since it's the only Tier 3 healing class?

I seriously question this idea.

Core contains a huge number of "staples", in terms of feats, spells, and classes. Removing it would just create a lot of holes. (Want to pick up Silent Spell? Nope, its banned. Want pick up a level of Fighter for an extra feat? Nope, its banned. Want to cast an iconic spell like Baleful Polymorph? Nope, its banned. Etc.)

Besides, I'm not sure what issue this will fix. Class imbalances?
1st, it probably doesn't matter as much as you might think.
2nd, it exists outside core as well. Enjoy your Swashbuckler, Soulknife, Psion, Spirit Shaman PC party...

[Yue Ryong]

Why not just ban the particular classes which are too powerful or weak, and state alternative options.Well... in my case, it was because the group I'm with isn't terribly crunch-led so pushing them in that many directions was probably more complicated than they would have preferred. So, I kept it simple: remove the classes (and just the classes) from the core books, and rely on more typical guidance mechanisms to try and help keep players in line with each other.

[Person_Man]

If you play 3.0/3.5/PF long enough, pretty much everyone goes through a phase where you want to ban half of the game. I'm partial to Tier 3 classes myself, and strongly dislike playing Tier 4-5. Having said that, a lot of players dislike it when you ban material. It's very well intentioned, but it can appear to be heavy handed. For example, some people just love Monks, even with all their flaws, just because.

So I have a simple system you might want to consider:

Step 1: Buy a case of beer.

Step 2:

Want to play Tier 1-2? OK. Just don't be a jerk about it. If you think something feels too powerful (Polymorph, Divine Metamagic, etc) avoid using too often, and accept the fact that your enemies may use it as well. If someone else in your party is trying to fill a niche, try not to overshadow them in that niche with your magic. When in doubt, have a beer together and talk about it.
Want to play Tier 3? Well, you're probably good to go as is. But still, avoid using encounter breaking stuff unless the situation is dire, like Ubercharger builds and the King of Smack. When in doubt, have a beer and talk about it.
Want to play Tier 4-5? Good news, you get free gestalt with any other Tier 4-5 class that covers different niches, which should greatly increase your resources and give you greater flexibility. Like your Tier 3 friends, please avoid breaking the game math by stacking tons of damage bonuses or anything similar. When in doubt, have a beer together and talk about it.


Step 3: Have fun playing. If anyone seems to be overshadowing anyone else, have a beer together, talk about it, and change adjust your character builds as needed.

[Alanto]

That sounds ideal. My group mostly work more-or-less that way, though I hadn't considered gestalting people at the bottom end, might suggest that in future.

[Ionbound]

Person, why don't you work for Wizards and make them have this as part of the 5e ruleset?

[Thealtruistorc]

I honestly really like this idea. Not only does it enforce balance much better, but we now have some variety in our class configuration. No more domination by the wizards and clerics, now we can finally utilize the weird stuff!