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Fawsto
2007-02-21, 09:13 PM
I've been making some research here in the forum and I found that some people find the paladin an underpowered core class. I'd like to know why, since this is my favourite class in terms of concept. I also believe that Paladins are versatile fighters (in terms of gaming; seems a bit strange, but I'm not talking about fighting only) that can use some helpful magical devices (wands and scrolls of divine magic) and be useful at interaction with NPCs (due to the high charisma score). They can't have all the battle prowess of a Fighter, but he is unequaled against evil enemies and has a much better chance of survival against magical effects than the other Fighting classes (except for the ranger... I cant remember but I think he has evasion now, am I right?), used properly his mount can be a overwelming force in the battlefield, if he has the oportinity he can buff himself with some basic but usefull spells and my favourite part: he has access to one powerful weapon, the Holy Avenger.

I think the paladin's only problems are his alligmente restrictions (I guess if they MUST be loyal they should at least be able to smite chaos too) and that they are too versatile, never focusing one aspect of beeing a core class.

Pls tell me if I am totaly wrong, and try to explain why some people (or all people) think that paladins are very underpowered.

Thx for the attenction.

Aximili
2007-02-21, 09:21 PM
Paladins (IMO) are great up to the point when they get special mount. After that they get basicly nothing.

Remove Disease is simply silly. It's there just to look like he's got another ability, you can cary a couple scrolls for a very cheap price and have the same effect 95% of the time.
His spells are useful sometimes, but nothing to proud of (except for one or two). Yeah they might look nice, but at 11th level you should have better things to do than buff yourself with your (only) 3rd level spell.
Sure, smite evil is a nice ability, which just makes up for the fact that it's limited. It's great to combine with mounted charges and to deal with BBEG. But that simply doesn't fill up the paladins void in terms of abilities after 6th level.

I'm not saying the paladin is useless or anything. His first abilities can make anyone smile. Aura of Courage, Special Mount, Divine Grace, Lay on hands, maybe even Divine Health (even his turn undead can boost some holy feats) all combined with a full BAB and d10 HD.

If only it continued like that. After 5th level he gets only 3 uses of smite evil, combined with a bunch of remove diseases and a total of 12 spells to fill in the gaps.

EDIT:You could say that his diplomatic abilities also improve along with his smite evil on high levels, suposing you spend the skill points. But there's nothing big about gaining 2 SP/level.
Ps: If you like it, stick to it. But if what you want

Steward
2007-02-21, 09:26 PM
Has anyone actually said that?

Anyway, I think that Paladins can be cool, but they're a class that relies heavily on the good will of the DM and the other players. A DM that's had bad experiences with them in the past or just plain doesn't like the idea behind them can make it hell to play as a Paladin. And if the rest of your party decides to schmooze around with every hellish undead demon-creature that passes by, well... you're possibly going to end up in Miko territory. And that's a shame.

Fawsto
2007-02-21, 09:36 PM
You tell me that...

Last session, from a group of 8 or 9 people with the following characters and allignments:

Dwarven Druid (NN)
Human Paladin (LG)
Human Ranger (CG)
Human Cleric (NG)
Halfling Rogue (NE)
Human Monk (LN)
Elven Wizard (L?)
Elven Rogue (CE)

only the Dwarven Druid, the Human Paladin and the Elven Rogue could play... Besides looking like the Lord Of The Rings with Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn hunting down the orcs, it was clearly my ass in the line since I was trying to roleplay as a Paladin and the Rogue was always trying to end things by killing someone (in front of me!!!) and the Druid would always support the easy way of doing things (generally, supporting the Rogue to kill soemeone)... I dont think that the DM was trying to help me either... It was a hard day...


Anyways, I believe that paladins are good too, but it's hard to find a DM taht supports the Talking before Killing thing. Btw... I spent a whole combat yelling "Drop your weapon and lets talk!" while triping an opponent and hiting him with non lethal demage... At least the guy didnt die... Neither I did...


Ohh yeah... That gap of missing skills also bothers me... I never make a lvl 20 Paladin... Never considered this a problem, since I never played a straight 20 lvl class neither...

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 09:45 PM
The DM was at fault for putting Evil and Good into the same party, especially with a Paladin. Any DM who doesn't set relatively strict requirements for the creation of characters in the party is a fool or inexperienced.

Person_Man
2007-02-21, 09:45 PM
Most non-full caster classes are underpowered compared to full caster classes once they reach mid levels. Spells scale with levels and have a wide variety of effects. Most melee combat options do not scale as well, and have relatively limited effects.

Fawsto
2007-02-21, 09:56 PM
The problem is that in this campaing the DM is not using alignment aspects... He is leaving this to the roleplay... So he wasnt concearned with the Good Vs Evil thing... (I've posted the alignments to notify how each caracter was acting...). The worst part is that I am roleplaying more and more Neutraly Good every day... I think the day that I and the Rogue will end things with the tip of the sword is coming...

That Lanky Bugger
2007-02-21, 10:00 PM
See, that's the problem. Even if he's not really paying attention to alignment, the simple fact of the matter is that he's allowed something very basic which would cause an inter-party conflict to arise in the character creation stage of the game.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-21, 10:11 PM
Remove Disease is simply silly. It's there just to look like he's got another ability, you can cary a couple scrolls for a very cheap price and have the same effect 95% of the time.
Are you in the habit of taking cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device with your paladins? Remove disease (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsPtoR.html#remove-disease) is not on the Paladin spell list, so scrolls won't be very helpful. Gotta leave that to the party's Cleric, or even, Heironeous forbid, the party's Ranger. :smallannoyed:

Fawsto: It's not so much "Paladins are underpowered" as it is that after 6th level, Paladins don't really get anything new. It's just more of the same. Sure, it takes them till 14th level to get their highest level spells, but 4th-level spells just aren't impressive then. So it's really still just more of the same.

(EDIT: Okay, so really, "more of the same" does make a class underpwered when you're getting the same stuff at 20th level that you got at 6th. I mean, it is like a 20th level wizard having no spell slots above 3rd-level. But I guess I'm just trying to point out the crux of the matter... Uh, I think. :smallcool: )

Aximili
2007-02-21, 10:19 PM
Are you in the habit of taking cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device with your paladins? Remove disease (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsPtoR.html#remove-disease) is not on the Paladin spell list, so scrolls won't be very helpful. Gotta leave that to the party's Cleric, or even, Heironeous forbid, the party's Ranger. :smallannoyed:

Wow! I had no idea. That's gotta make the paladin feel bad about himself.

Zeta Kai
2007-02-21, 10:21 PM
I still don't get why Warlocks are said to be underpowered. Eldritch blast? Hello?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-21, 10:30 PM
Eldritch Blast?

At 20th level, it averages 31.5 damage. Limited to once per round. On a successful hit.

A fighter will be doing far more than that with each succesful swing, of which there will be a bare minimum of 4 any time he or she can make a full attack.

Eldritch blast, while useful, isn't that good.


Wow! I had no idea. That's gotta make the paladin feel bad about himself.
Yeah, I only had that one pointed out to me only a couple weeks ago myself. (I'm not a paladin player. I tend to stick with arcanists.)

I guess someone figured that giving the paladin a chance for daily castings would dilute the value of a weekly spell-like ability. :smallannoyed:

Dragonmuncher
2007-02-21, 10:35 PM
Warlocks are said to be underpowered mostly because they can't keep up with the other classes- At anything above low-level games, their one blast per round with a few d6s in it does less than an average fighter or rogue could do. There are plenty of Warlock threads on around, with pros, cons, and suggested fixes. Check 'em out.

As for the paladin, it's really the "nothing new" thing that bugs me. Monks get cool high level abilities, as do druids, rogues, barbarians. Rangers get hide in plain sight . Heck: Even bards get mass suggestion, and inspire heroics. After level 6, pallys just get more remove diseases, and a few smite evils. True, the mount gets a few new tricks, but that's about it.

Fawsto
2007-02-21, 10:56 PM
I believe that some extra feats would do the thing... Pehaps after 6th lvl the paladin would receive an extra feat every 4 lvls? Or less? Dunno... What you think? (I said 4 lvls cause Paladins still get benefits from being in HLevels such as more Lay on Hands and More powers to the mount. Probably this isnt enough, so here come the extra feats.)

Paladins should also receive Mettle or something like it... The Divine Grace thing... It is so good... There should be more work on it...

Or if the Paladin could become like a Bastion of defense? Giving him Defensive Stance like the Dwarven Defender?

Mewtarthio
2007-02-21, 10:57 PM
The DM was at fault for putting Evil and Good into the same party, especially with a Paladin. Any DM who doesn't set relatively strict requirements for the creation of characters in the party is a fool or inexperienced.

Good and Evil can work fine in a party together, and a party of all-Good can be rife in conflict. It all depends on other roleplaying elements. For instance, a staunch advocater of "violence as a last resort" and a Stupid Evil guy who eviscerates everyone he sees are bound to have conflict. An Evil guy is just someone who looks out for himself. So long as the pay's good (and it always is for adventuring parties) and he likes the other PCs, he's got no reason to stir up trouble and run around killing random civilians.

Now, a player who's Evil just for the sake of being Evil will inevitably run into trouble with other characters, but the same's true for the Holier-Than-Thou Paladin (complete with the infamous stick). The same's true for Exalted characters and Vile characters. However, Evil guys who are just mercenary and self-centered can get along quite well with Good guys who are just altruistic. They may argue about methods, but in the end they're on the same side (the side of the party).

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-21, 11:04 PM
Thematically, the paladin is one of the best classes in the game. Mechanically, the paladin is easily among the worst. I hate it, but it's true.

I'm an advocate of the rebalanced paladin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045) build, which brings the paladin up to rogue or Tome of Battle level power. Unfortunately, the other DM in my group is of the opinion that core is balanced because it's core and therefore playtested. So I'll never get to actually play one in all likelihood.

Aximili
2007-02-21, 11:08 PM
I guess someone figured that giving the paladin a chance for daily castings would dilute the value of a weekly spell-like ability. :smallannoyed:
I always supposed that it was to make sure he didn't need to prepare such a lousy spell. Now I see the situation is much more critical.

ShadowYRM
2007-02-21, 11:25 PM
There are alternate versions of Paladins, better spells for them in some of the new books, and of course, it's going to vary from DM to DM.

There are a great many prestige classes that start well from a Paladin core too, so... yeah, they can be an effective melee class.

Don't let forum comments about your favorite class get you down.

If you have a DM who provides a variety of environments, threats, and situations, every class will have a chance to shine if played well, and even the better classes will have their weaknesses enforced (such as costs of maintaining spellbooks, various saves and threats many DMs don't use, etc.)

Paladins have a lot going for them, not the least of which are saves.

As you said, depending on the DM, the Paladin's social abilites can help them to stand out.

Heck, you can even get a flying mount.

Obviously, the mounts work better if a DM uses large terrain and doesn't stick to nothing but dungeons. But, mounted combat can be a BIG deal on a 3x3 or 4x4 terrain board.

In short, don't be discouraged away from Paladins, they are a good class that, I agree, tends to start out stronger than it finishes.

Titanium Dragon
2007-02-21, 11:37 PM
One thing worth noting is that if you try, a paladin can easily have the best saving throws in the group, and as such can be an extremely solid tank. I don't find them underpowered compared to many other classes; its mostly that non-casters are generally weaker than casters.

McBish
2007-02-21, 11:43 PM
I like paladins for balance. They make good tanks that can heal up. They have good saves and can deal good damage. Maybe that's just me though.

Lemur
2007-02-21, 11:50 PM
I would say that it's not so much that the paladin's setup is inherently underpowered, but that the extremely restrictive guidelines inherent to being a paladin do not "pay off" with comparative benefits.

They do have some useful abilities, but compared to say, a fighter or ranger, who get their special abilities without requiring any particular code of conduct (even if they're also lawful good), a paladin's abilities seem underwhelming.

Therefore, the problem is that they have more or less comparable abilities to the other fighting classes. This should not be. Paladins are the ultimate warriors of virtue: we expect them to have a greater ability to kick ass than their non-holy powered counterparts.

cupkeyk
2007-02-21, 11:59 PM
I personally have never played a good character and I have never run into issues with my parties. The eviscerating evil guy is the worst kind of evil. To quote Ayn Rand: In any compromise between food and poison, it is only poison that can win; In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can benefit.

Evil should minimize destruction and maximize corruption. Negotiating should always be an evil character's first option as A) this puts more votes in his side and lets him control party (and eventually NPC) opinion and B) he has no qualms about betrayal so if all else fails.

I love CE bards. Manipulation has never been so sweet.

So you can tell that evil rogue, he's making evil look bad by playing the alignment badly.

crazedloon
2007-02-22, 12:31 AM
I agree with most the people posting that the paladin is a weak class once you get past 6th level. However if you want to continue in a paladin type class I would suggest looking at complete scoundrel. My favorite class out of it is a 10 level class based on making the paladin less restricted as far as his actions, making his smite ability more effective against a wider array of critters and people, and making that lay on hands ability even better through damage :smallbiggrin: . If you ask me it’s a solid PrC for paladin and allows limited spell advancement (but you would be better of splashing a cleric level and advancing the spells that way :smallwink: ). With a paladin you shouldn’t focus on spells but your usefulness as a good road block. Paladins have great saves (which has been stated) and they can wield pretty much anything and in a worse case scenario they can heal themselves.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-02-22, 06:09 AM
There are truly horrific paladin builds floating about somewhere ...

Things like

X fey with divine grace (untyped Cha to saves, AC) / Sorcerer 1 / Monk 1 (with Ascetic mage, insight Cha instead of Wis to monk abilities, most notably AC) / Arcane Duellist 2 (untyped Cha to AC) / Paladin 4 (untyped Cha to AC (divine shield), to saves (divine grace), twice Cha to attack (smite evil + divine might).

Loaded up with a few Cha boosting items and spells, let us say to Cha 30, we thus have

+20 to all saves
+40 to AC
+20 to attack rolls

From an 8th level + Fey ECL character, that's quite nasty, I'd say.

Roderick_BR
2007-02-22, 08:48 AM
Paladins are still a lot better than fighters, since they are less subjects to the Save-or-Suck spells, and can hold their own in most fights.
The only problem with paladins, is that his Remove Disease, as it was noted, it silly (how many times in your entire life you've been playing, you ever used it?)
Of course, paladins gains not so great class abilities, but people forget that he can cast some spells at high level. But then again, most of them suck too much to take the place of more class abilities.
And the paladin gets subject to MAD problems. He need to have good strenght (primary meelee class), good charisma (several paladin powers) AND a good wisdom (for spell caster.)
Is not that he is weak, he's just harder to play.

alchemy.freak
2007-02-22, 10:49 AM
First off, i agree the paladin may seem a little underpowered. but that is because all the other players are not limited.

Paladins have prestiege classes, divine feats and powerful supernatural abilities going for them.

for the good roleplayers they can inspire men to great feats of courage, and are generally looked upon as heroic

but roleplaying aside, there are feats in things like complete adventrer wich allow paladins to multiclass with style. they can multiclass with monks for smite evil and flurry of blows, or multiclass rogue for high powered stealth.

Personally i play a paladin rogue mix, with a prestige class to make it even better. i can now sneak better than our rogue, and i dish out more melee and ranged damage than anyone.

with the right feats a paladin can become even more powerful, he can give his mount templates and boost his sneak attack damage (if he has it).

if your campaign is lacking in roleplaying or the DM dosen't like you, thats just too bad. many character classes are hated by different groups (i for example have banned monks form all of my campaigns).

and in the end, Paladins are called to do what they do, it's not a class for everyone, if you want some extra damage done, be a fighter.

ravenkith
2007-02-22, 01:40 PM
Any person playing a straight 20 paladin is a glutton for punishment.

Fortunately, there are a number of prestige classes that can be dropped on top of Paladin to at least put a bandaid over the supperating wound that is their every level after 5th.

Kensai could be a very good choice.

But my personal favorite involves halflings, wardogs, and mounted combat prescheese...I mean prestige classes, especially from the Complete Warrior.

jjpickar
2007-02-22, 01:43 PM
Paladins also qualify for divine feats when they get the turn undead ability at (I think) 3rd level.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-22, 01:45 PM
If you're looking for a better paladin that can compete with casters, look no further (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Paladin).

headwarpage
2007-02-22, 01:50 PM
Keep in mind that when some people say 'underpowered', they really mean 'underpowered compared to full casters'. In that sense, everything other than a full caster is underpowered, and I'm pretty sure I've seen every core class other than the full casters described as underpowered at various times.

That said, paladin is best taken in 2-5 level doses, since they don't get many useful abilities after that. You can just roleplay being a paladin the rest of the way, since your character has no concept of levels or classes anyway.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-02-22, 02:16 PM
The main problem with paladins that makes them seem underpowered is that they get no real abilities of note after 5th level, which makes them a poor class to take all the way to 20.

Dnjscott
2007-02-22, 02:17 PM
Paladins kick butt for the first 5 and maybe up to 10. But they do tend to give small benefits thereafter.

There are a lot of Paladin PrCs, but they almost all want you to give up some of your Paladin-ness to be them or give overlapping abilities.

F'r instance, someone mentioned the Gray Guard earlier. They're a cool concept, but say buh-bye to your mount, half your casting, and your, well, remove disease (not so tragic).

Knight of the Triad from Champions of Valor (which has a lot of cool Paladin options) is a bit better, but it repeats some abilities a Paladin already has, which is frustrating (though you can trade them out with Paladin substitution levels from elsewhere in the book).

One of the best Paladin options I've seen in a long time has a certain name on the cover people on this forum will find familiar--the Dungeonscape no-mount Paladin is actually really cool and gives you stuff over all levels.

I really love the Paladin, but it's pretty frustrating to see the vast evpanses of + 1 smite evil / 5 levels + some mediocre casting + another flippin remove disease.

axraelshelm
2007-02-22, 02:57 PM
After playing a paladin and now having a look at the other supplements. I find that my ideal Paladin is the psychic warrior less bab higher powers than 4 more feats.
Its what i wanted the paladin to be when i first started dnd more magic less smack but makes it up because of the magic.

Matthew
2007-02-22, 03:04 PM
I like Paladins, but they do seem to get pretty much nothing after Level 5. One fix I am considering is letting them do extra damage equivalent to their Paladin Level to Evil Creatures all the time, instead of just as part of a smite, maybe limited to once per round [Levels 1-5], twice per round [Levels 6-10], thrice per round [Levels 11-16], etc..

Person_Man
2007-02-22, 03:22 PM
In the Paladin's defense, if you have the Spell Compedium and/or enough splat books, they can be a lot more useful. There are some good Paladin only spells that really add a lot to the class. But they're really not as useful as Psychic Warrior powers or ToB Maneuvers.

In general, WotC should just eliminate half-casters, and replace the occasionally useful low level spells with more special abilities, preferably ones that scale with levels.

its_all_ogre
2007-02-22, 04:12 PM
paladins are weaker than the other 3 phb warrior types(full bab as in).
fighter despite poor saves make much better warriors due to feats and feat chains. barbarians because they are fast and can rage and do tons of damage. rangers because they get so many skills and so many nice abilities(they are the weakest out of the four warriors for damage causing though, i feel they make up for it overall though. you may not agree, thats fine)

Dnjscott
2007-02-22, 05:19 PM
rangers because they get so many skills and so many nice abilities(they are the weakest out of the four warriors for damage causing though, i feel they make up for it overall though. you may not agree, thats fine)

Rangers really power up with splat books, though. Favored Enemy Power Attack and Nemesis leap to mind, but there are plenty of other really nasty Favored Enemy feats out there. The multi-classing/combo with the Scout feat from Complete Scoundrel lets you add full Skirmish while still getting all of your class features and 4th level casting!

PLus with six skills per and tracking you do well outside of combat... hide in plain sight...

Ahh, the Ranger. :smallsmile:

Fawsto
2007-02-22, 10:07 PM
I'd like to know if thei build is effective for a paladin... Since I am the combat focused guy until the Mad Dwarf Druid gets his hands on some overpowering PrC combo and helping me to be at least a force to be acknowledged in the battlefield, since I am also the party's meat shield... This is what I plan:

.Fighter: Use Exotic Weapon: Dire Pick (because I like the style and the x4 crit), Combat Specialization, Weapon Focus: Dire Pick
.Fighter: Improved Trip (since my Paly respects life, he tries to knock oponents off their balance rather than killing them)
.Paladin: Knock Down (if I must wield a weapon, it still trips the enemy)
.Paladin:
.Paladin:
.Paladin: Mounted Combat (to help fighting with my Dire Lion mount; I am using it so I can be more independent in combat)
.Paladin:
.Paladin:
.Paladin: My DM allowed me to wait till taking a feat, so I am saving this one to get Dedicated Inquisitor at lvl 11 togther with the Rogue multiclassing.

After this I am getting 2 lvls in rogue (11th and 12th char lvls) for the Skills, Evasion and Sneak attack (Yes, I am gathereing money for a Mithral Medium armor) and the remaining lvls I am getting the Kensai PrC together with the Improved Critical tree of feats and possibly the Power Critical feat too (that allows me to deal a Critical once per day). Also I am turning my signature weapon into a "more than lethal" critical dealer by getting the Eletric Explosion, Thundering and Keen spells.

Also I am maxing the following skills: Concentration, Ride and Diplomacy

What do you think, I can be an effective member of my party as the Tank/Primary Fighter/secondary talker with this build?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw... I think the Smite Evil should have more activations... The barbarian rage is much better and can be used the same number of times per day at lvl 20...

I think I will never, ever use Remove disease feature... Unless my party starts fighting mummies and devils/demons... I would really enjoy more feats after lvl 6... You guys are more than right when you say that there is a gap between lvl 6 to 20... It really hurts...

Hmmm... The ranger's only problem comes when he is not fighting his favored enemy and is flat footed... If this happens trought a entire battle I may say that the Ranger will mostly surely die... I wish the Paladin wasn't so restricted...

I wish my DM would use the Draconomicon... There is ONE single spell that I wanted from there...

Here we have the following common sense: we never, ever use the quintessential books... We believe that they are to overpowering.

Dnjscott
2007-02-22, 11:14 PM
I'd like to know if thei build is effective for a paladin... .

That looks a little fun, if maybe a little bit all over the board. I'd worry a little about Diplomacy since that won't be a class level in the beginning (though maybe you're starting higher? You didn't say). Also, you said you wanted to use your Mount but it might end up a bit underpowered due to lack of levels advancing it, though you can try taking Leadership or some Bonded Mount feats to make up for it.

There's an Extra Smite feat out there in Complete Warrior which might help you with more smites, though I don't think Fighter and Kensai levels will add to damage, so that might not be worth focusing on too much.

Fawsto
2007-02-22, 11:31 PM
I am using the Kensai PrC for the weapon and for her only. You see the combat idea here is to deal devastating crits to end the fight quickly. Besides that Power Surge is cool (Concentration Check CD 15 for +8 strenght? I must be dreaming!; I know the DC increases by 5 if you try to use it again within the 24h period, but it is enought for a 3 turns showdown). I Dont Worry about the mount for now, I just need it as a ND 8 monster helping me with combat. I will use some of my resources to buy some cool equips for it. Besides that, I am planing to get more Paladin lvls at Epics.

Unfortunatly I can't dare to expend feats with more smites... Otherwise I'd be saying that I am useful only x times per day...

I am not beeing able to get the best of this paladin because I am doing 3 jobs at once... If a Cleric didn't show up in the last time we played I'd be in trouble while healing my teamates too...

But I dare to say that whenever he strikes a critical it will take a toll in damage.


I maybe wrong, but my mount can full attack while I am riding it, can't it?


Btw, thanks for the opinion guys.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-22, 11:51 PM
I've got a real soft spot for paladins. They're the classic hero character, more so then any other base class in the entirety of D&D. Their crunch even helps reflect this a little. The problem is that it just doesn't go far enough with the whole "valiant and unyielding hero riding into battle on his steed despite the gathering storm". Speaking of which, Fax's rebuild looks hot for exactly what I'm talking about.

Some DM's just end up in games with paladins played poorly. Instead of the classic hero, they end up as snobs more obsessed with desperately protecting their own class features from potential and vastly imagined penalties the DM might impose. That's not a paladin to me. A paladin would be all too ready to lose everything if it meant saving the day.

alchemy.freak
2007-02-22, 11:59 PM
I personally perfer the rebalanced paladin on the wizards forum. i was sort of skeptical at first, but if you read on further, they justify most of it with some pretty good evidence. i think the link is in this thread somewhere

axraelshelm
2007-02-23, 01:28 AM
I've got a real soft spot for paladins. They're the classic hero character, more so then any other base class in the entirety of D&D. Their crunch even helps reflect this a little. The problem is that it just doesn't go far enough with the whole "valiant and unyielding hero riding into battle on his steed despite the gathering storm". Speaking of which, Fax's rebuild looks hot for exactly what I'm talking about.

Some DM's just end up in games with paladins played poorly. Instead of the classic hero, they end up as snobs more obsessed with desperately protecting their own class features from potential and vastly imagined penalties the DM might impose. That's not a paladin to me. A paladin would be all too ready to lose everything if it meant saving the day.

"Megatron must be stopped whatever the cost"
sob

Beleriphon
2007-02-23, 06:30 AM
"Megatron must be stopped whatever the cost"
sob

If there was a paladin Transformer it was so Optimus Prime. I guess that would make Megatron a blackguard.

Tor the Fallen
2007-02-23, 06:51 AM
I'd like to know if thei build is effective for a paladin... Since I am the combat focused guy until the Mad Dwarf Druid gets his hands on some overpowering PrC combo and helping me to be at least a force to be acknowledged in the battlefield, since I am also the party's meat shield... This is what I plan:

.Fighter: Use Exotic Weapon: Dire Pick (because I like the style and the x4 crit), Combat Specialization, Weapon Focus: Dire Pick
.Fighter: Improved Trip (since my Paly respects life, he tries to knock oponents off their balance rather than killing them)
.Paladin: Knock Down (if I must wield a weapon, it still trips the enemy)
.Paladin:
.Paladin:
.Paladin: Mounted Combat (to help fighting with my Dire Lion mount; I am using it so I can be more independent in combat)
.Paladin:
.Paladin:
.Paladin: My DM allowed me to wait till taking a feat, so I am saving this one to get Dedicated Inquisitor at lvl 11 togther with the Rogue multiclassing.

After this I am getting 2 lvls in rogue (11th and 12th char lvls) for the Skills, Evasion and Sneak attack (Yes, I am gathereing money for a Mithral Medium armor) and the remaining lvls I am getting the Kensai PrC together with the Improved Critical tree of feats and possibly the Power Critical feat too (that allows me to deal a Critical once per day). Also I am turning my signature weapon into a "more than lethal" critical dealer by getting the Eletric Explosion, Thundering and Keen spells.

Also I am maxing the following skills: Concentration, Ride and Diplomacy

What do you think, I can be an effective member of my party as the Tank/Primary Fighter/secondary talker with this build?

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Btw... I think the Smite Evil should have more activations... The barbarian rage is much better and can be used the same number of times per day at lvl 20...

I think I will never, ever use Remove disease feature... Unless my party starts fighting mummies and devils/demons... I would really enjoy more feats after lvl 6... You guys are more than right when you say that there is a gap between lvl 6 to 20... It really hurts...

Hmmm... The ranger's only problem comes when he is not fighting his favored enemy and is flat footed... If this happens trought a entire battle I may say that the Ranger will mostly surely die... I wish the Paladin wasn't so restricted...

I wish my DM would use the Draconomicon... There is ONE single spell that I wanted from there...

Here we have the following common sense: we never, ever use the quintessential books... We believe that they are to overpowering.

If you're going to be mounted, and plan on later dealing out huge damage on crits, why bother with the nice guy stuff?
I'd say get power attack, and maybe the mounted feats up to spirited charge. Critical on a spirited lance charge is x6 , which will be x12 power attack and x9 strength damage. Which is sort of a lot.

Aquillion
2007-02-23, 07:32 AM
If you're looking for a better paladin that can compete with casters, look no further (http://corporation.walagata.com/fax/wiki/index.php/Paladin).Am I misreading that Mercy one, or would an 18th level Paladin with that mantle who decided to do nonlethal damage do an extra 6d6 points of it with every strike? That's cool.

The evil ones seem a little silly, though--they have all these restrictions requiring selfishness, then they still give a bonus to all allies in the area. And, really, I can't get my head around a god requiring a strict, by-the-book adherence to extreme evil for the sake of being evil... yes, we have blackguards, but they're not the same...

And a chaos paladin loses the Dischord mantle if they ever tell the whole truth about anything? That could get... awkward, although it would probably be fun to RP.

The 'Freedom' mantle reads: "...if a creature perishes while held by any form of this spell, the Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle." Gah?

Nevermore
2007-02-23, 09:06 AM
A Paladin with the Grey Paladin (I think that is what it is called) Prestige Class is a great addition to the class. The Shadow Bane, Kensai and Cavalier Prestige classes can also turn your Paladin into a total beast (I prefer the new Gray Paladin as it is closer to the core class)

axraelshelm
2007-02-23, 10:19 AM
what is a grey paladin please tell me it looks and feels like a Gret knight from warhammer 40k

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-23, 11:21 AM
The Grey Guard is from Complete Scoundrel. He's a paladin that's become a little disillusioned with the world, and thus can use tactics and abilities that would end with a paladin being stripped of his class features so long as it furthers the greater good. Basically, it's a hero that gets a little rough around the edges and becomes more brooding and anti-hero-ish.

It goes against some of my favorite tenants of playing a paladin, but it has some beautiful flavor and roleplaying potential.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-23, 11:27 AM
Am I misreading that Mercy one, or would an 18th level Paladin with that mantle who decided to do nonlethal damage do an extra 6d6 points of it with every strike? That's cool.

The evil ones seem a little silly, though--they have all these restrictions requiring selfishness, then they still give a bonus to all allies in the area. And, really, I can't get my head around a god requiring a strict, by-the-book adherence to extreme evil for the sake of being evil... yes, we have blackguards, but they're not the same...

And a chaos paladin loses the Dischord mantle if they ever tell the whole truth about anything? That could get... awkward, although it would probably be fun to RP.

The 'Freedom' mantle reads: "...if a creature perishes while held by any form of this spell, the Paladin loses all aspects of this mantle." Gah?

You're not misreading any of it. And the Freedom mantle has a remnant left over from my copy-paste of a different mantle.

Fawsto
2007-02-25, 09:06 PM
I tought a lot about it and I decided to remove those lvls in Rogue, It would be expensive in terms of Hit Dice and a feat... I decided to get Kensai to lvl 10, at least completing the PrC. From now on I decided to focus on the criticals my Pally will deal.

Stevenson
2007-02-25, 09:19 PM
Paladins, in my opinion, aren't underpowered: just jerks a bunch of the time. I've seen too many people play paladins that try too hard to be Miko (and they haven't read OotS). Even in a group optimal for a paladin, that is of monks and paladins, with a hefty dose of good cleric, it gets bothersome a lot of the time.

Also, paladins are to clerics what Rangers are to Druids and Bards (to a lesser extent) are to wizards and sorcerers. Warriors with a dash of spellslinging, which often results in a class that spreads itself too thin trying to do everything.

Wehrkind
2007-02-25, 09:48 PM
Someone definitely needs to stat out a Warforged paladin and black guard, both with some sort of alter self ability at will, but only into a semi in the case of the former, and a pistol in the case of the latter.

Those would make the most epic combatants ever for the PCs to ally with.

Steward
2007-02-25, 09:54 PM
A paladin would be all too ready to lose everything if it meant saving the day.

Ha, but sometimes that would end up destroying your adventure, depending on how much your DM hates the class.

Renegade Paladin
2007-02-26, 09:44 AM
what is a grey paladin please tell me it looks and feels like a Gret knight from warhammer 40k
Praise the Emperor and strike down His foes! :smallamused:

No, it isn't. Honestly, the closest thing in D&D is probably the Knight of the Chalice, with the focus on demon-slaying and all. But the flavor of the grim darkness of the far future just doesn't fit with bog-standard high fantasy. :smallwink:

axraelshelm
2007-02-26, 01:48 PM
damn i was hoping for some cool stuff from such a classy name as grey paladin but by the sound of it is just another class.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-26, 04:17 PM
It's a paladin that bluffs, cheats, consorts with evil from time to time, tortures, and manipulates all in the name of the Greater Good (TM). Which part of evil good paladin doesn't sound cool?

Telonius
2007-02-26, 04:26 PM
The evil ones seem a little silly, though--they have all these restrictions requiring selfishness, then they still give a bonus to all allies in the area. And, really, I can't get my head around a god requiring a strict, by-the-book adherence to extreme evil for the sake of being evil... yes, we have blackguards, but they're not the same...



At least to me, it makes as much sense as a god requiring strict, by-the-book adherence to extreme good for the sake of being good. I can see an evil god wanting someone who worships evil as an end in itself. That would be the most perfect evil there can be. :xykon:

Fax Celestis
2007-02-26, 04:27 PM
It's a paladin that bluffs, cheats, consorts with evil from time to time, tortures, and manipulates all in the name of the Greater Good (TM). Which part of evil good paladin doesn't sound cool?

...or like the Punisher?

idioscosmos
2007-02-26, 05:48 PM
Yanno - you guys are starting to sould like WoW players trying to calculate maximum DPS. There's more to RPGing than max damage. Pallys are the only combat class that gets diplomatic skills - and if you're running a game where you require/make it effective to use those skills, that's huge.

In fact, in a normal powered game, sometimes they end up being the only class who has the points to spare to put there (sorry, but most clerics have better places to put points, and unless you're letting your players do something like 36 point buy, your average cleric is using INT as a "dump" stat, rogues have a lot of points but a LOT of places to put them, and bards? Lets be blunt - in a 4 charachter game, what would you give up to have a Bard? Cleric? Mage? Rogue?).

Even if you want to dual him to another class later, from a role-playing standpoint (and I'm not talking about the "Complete" books - I don't allow them when I DM), the Paladin is just...awesome as far as storylines are concerned.

alchemy.freak
2007-02-27, 05:18 PM
I realize that Paladins are good for roleplaying, but i thinks most of us want them to measure up and be relevent at higher levels.

it is hard to role play a class who usually is high and mighty if you don't have any power to back it up.

Pocket lint
2007-02-27, 05:29 PM
Personally, I would like the paladin's smite ability to be a lot more powerful than it is right now. At least on a par with the rogue sneak ability - he doesn't get more than a few attempts to go nuclear with it per day, so it had better count. And +level to damage is just wussy. +1d6/level is a bit too far though, but it seems this ought to be an ability that really *can* wipe the floor with the BBEG.

The "rebalanced paladin" thing someone wrote up is too far towards powerful, and doesn't make that smite attack any more powerful - it just gives you more of them. I liked the ability to trade in lay on hands points for extra curing options though - remove poison, ability damage, even negative levels. IMO, you smite the bad guys and use lay on hands on your buddies. Using lay on hands to kill undead is lame.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-27, 07:47 PM
Personally, I would like the paladin's smite ability to be a lot more powerful than it is right now. At least on a par with the rogue sneak ability - he doesn't get more than a few attempts to go nuclear with it per day, so it had better count. And +level to damage is just wussy. +1d6/level is a bit too far though, but it seems this ought to be an ability that really *can* wipe the floor with the BBEG.

The "rebalanced paladin" thing someone wrote up is too far towards powerful, and doesn't make that smite attack any more powerful - it just gives you more of them. I liked the ability to trade in lay on hands points for extra curing options though - remove poison, ability damage, even negative levels. IMO, you smite the bad guys and use lay on hands on your buddies. Using lay on hands to kill undead is lame.

Wait... so it's tooo powerful, and you're complaining that Smite Evil isn't powerful enough?

Also, what's wrong with using lay on hands to kill undead? You can kill them with Cure Light Wounds as well.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-27, 08:12 PM
Wait... so it's tooo powerful, and you're complaining that Smite Evil isn't powerful enough?
It's always possible to go too far the other way.

In, like, anything.

alchemy.freak
2007-02-27, 11:11 PM
The "rebalanced paladin" thing someone wrote up is too far towards powerful, and doesn't make that smite attack any more powerful - it just gives you more of them. I liked the ability to trade in lay on hands points for extra curing options though - remove poison, ability damage, even negative levels. IMO, you smite the bad guys and use lay on hands on your buddies. Using lay on hands to kill undead is lame.

Question, did you read the other, like, ten pages of the thread? (on the rebalanced paladin page)

he backs his arguement up very well and uses a lot of game stats to really help make his point.

And using Lay on hands to damage the undead can be quite useful in the correct circumstances

Fawsto
2007-02-27, 11:48 PM
A few more uses of smite evil would be enought... I keep comparing it to the barbarian's rage... the last outmatches the first in any circunstances... ecept maybe if you must stop the combat or think while fighting.

Pehaps if SE would turn into a "always hit attack" just adding half of the cha modifier to be the critical range for the weapon while you'd roll the d20 to see if you score a crit... The damage based on your character lvl wouldn't be multiplied by the critical, only the weapon's damage and your str modifier.

marjan
2007-02-28, 01:21 AM
Pehaps if SE would turn into a "always hit attack"

That wouldn't help much sinse with Paladin's charisma he prety much hits every time if the enemy doesn't have any concealment.