Do you even net?

[Captain KB]

Hey I'm a newby. I'm playing a tabletop for the first time with some friends (3.5) and I'm seriously confused about a certain aspect of nets. I know y opponent can escape it with a +20 escape artist check, or burst it with a +25 strength check (which destroys the net) but why does the net have HP?

While playing today an Orc decided to attack my net with his battle axe while he was trapped. Of course it easily did more than 5 damage and he destroyed my net.

The handbook doesn't say anything about attacking a net or what the 5hp is used for. The only mention of an enemy destroying a net is when it is burst with a strength check.

If you can truly just attack the net and do more than 5 damage (no AC) then why have the option to burst the net with a very difficult strength check when there's a much easier solution.

Any other further explanations of nets will be greatly appreciated. And please back up your findings with quotes or links

Thanks ahead of time

[XionUnborn01]

I'm AFB so I'm not sure about links, I can hopefully provide them later.

There are three ways to get out of a net. You can use escape artist which is pretty self explanatory; you wiggle/slide/shimmy your way out. You can use a strength check to break the net, which is also pretty self explanatory.

The reason it has HP is because first off, I think you can only attack with light weapons while entangled, I'm not 100% sure though. Look at it this way, some creatures have no way of doing more than 1dmg per attack so a net holds them for 5 attacks.

I haven't really read up on nets too much so i'm not too sure about it though, someone will come along with more info soon.

[Jeff the Green]

If you can truly just attack the net and do more than 5 damage (no AC) then why have the option to burst the net with a very difficult strength check when there's a much easier solution.

Because not all weapons are capable of damaging nets.


Ineffective Weapons
Certain weapons just can’t effectively deal damage to certain objects.

I'd say generally this is everything piercing and bludgeoning.


The reason it has HP is because first off, I think you can only attack with light weapons while entangled, I'm not 100% sure though.

Nope; you're free to attack however you want.

[Captain KB]

The reason it has HP is because first off, I think you can only attack with light weapons while entangled, I'm not 100% sure though. Look at it this way, some creatures have no way of doing more than 1dmg per attack so a net holds them for 5 attacks.
I think it would make more sense if it was something along the lines of "you can only damage nets with light weapons"


Because not all weapons are capable of damaging nets.

I'd say generally this is everything piercing and bludgeoning.


That makes a lot of sense too. Where can I find this in the players handbook or somewhere reliable, cause I know my DM is going to want to see.

[VoxRationis]

It says that the DM may rule that some objects simply cannot be effectively attacked by certain damage types in the section "Breaking Objects," in the chapter "Adventuring." As an example, it points out that you can't break down a door with arrows. Jeff the Green is taking this logic (and I fully agree, by the way) and applying it to the net. Attempting to break a net with a piercing weapon would require doing something like individually pinning strand of the net to the ground and then stabbing them repeatedly; this obviously is not practical in a combat scenario. A bludgeoning weapon... Well, imagine trying to beat a rope or cloth to death with a rock. Sound hard? A material built for flexibility isn't going to be affected by a blunt impact.

[Jeff the Green]

That makes a lot of sense too. Where can I find this in the players handbook or somewhere reliable, cause I know my DM is going to want to see.

Dunno; I don't own the PHB. The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org) is published by WotC and is the PHB, DMG, MM, XPH, and a few other random bits from things like UA and D&D with much of the fluff stripped out, errata included, and certain Product Identity things like Illithids and Yuan-ti excised. Actually, if you want the rules it's better than the PHB because it includes errata, which is really important for e.g. wildshape.


Attempting to break a net with a piercing weapon would require doing something like individually pinning strand of the net to the ground and then stabbing them repeatedly; this obviously is not practical in a combat scenario.

Actually, depending on the weapon's point, you could saw through it. It's weapon-specific, though (spear, probably; arrow, maybe; rapier, absolutely not), and should probably be classed as an improvised dagger, possibly of a smaller size.

[Coidzor]

On the bright side though, he spent that attack on your net rather than on your party.

[Vogonjeltz]

The net also says the entangled character can only move as much as the confines of the rope will allow if they fail an opposed str check.

I'd say that would prohibit the ability to use a weapon.

[Coidzor]

The net also says the entangled character can only move as much as the confines of the rope will allow if they fail an opposed str check.

I'd say that would prohibit the ability to use a weapon.

That's more like why a creature can't really move without taking the person grappling them with them. There's a net on them, the net has a rope, if someone's holding onto that rope then they need to be dragged with the creature in the net.

If they also are restricted to only weapons they could use in a grapple, that ups the power of nets even further, such that they rival Imperious Command Intimidation Fear-locking but require much, much less investment to use. If it prevents the use of any weapon at all it becomes one of the best actions one can do against a single target for a good long while.

[Bronk]

I think that since the net is a weapon, and that even though it uses a ranged attack to hit, when you throw a it on something you still hold on to some kind of trailing ropes, this is more of a sunder.

In that case, the guy in the net would provoke an attack of opportunity, then have to make an opposed roll against you to see if he can damage the net in the first place, then make the attack.

[Darrin]

Make the net Dwarvencraft (Races of Stone) and it might last another round: +2 hardness and +10 HP. You might be able to add Hellforged (DMGII) too: +1 hardness, +5 HP. Or make it out of Riverine (Stormwrack). 12000 GP, but nobody's gonna sunder that thing.

If you're looking for a good way to debuff someone with a thrown weapon, check out the Bola Flail in Ghostwalk:

You get a +2 bonus on disarm checks and you can trip with it. You can also trip with it as a thrown weapon. Make a ranged touch attack, if it hits your target must make a Str or Dex check DC 15 or they are tripped. Regardless of whether the trip works, your target also has to make a grapple check with your attack roll as the DC. If he fails, he is grappled. If he tries to sunder the bola flail, he really is limited to weapons he can only use in a grapple, because he actually is grappled. He can also get out of the grapple as a full-round action.

[Bronk]

Or make it out of Riverine (Stormwrack). 12000 GP, but nobody's gonna sunder that thing.

That's awesome. Plus, as a force effect, you could catch ghosts with it too...

I wonder if the special properties of the net (the ability to burst it) would still apply? I suppose not, since that was more a function of the rope material...

[Jeff the Green]

I think that since the net is a weapon, and that even though it uses a ranged attack to hit, when you throw a it on something you still hold on to some kind of trailing ropes, this is more of a sunder.

In that case, the guy in the net would provoke an attack of opportunity, then have to make an opposed roll against you to see if he can damage the net in the first place, then make the attack.

Wait, what? No. First, one hopes you're not actually adjacent to the guy you threw the net on since it'd provoke to throw it. Second, you're holding the trailing rope, not the net itself. It's attacking an unattended object, not a sunder. Maybe if you wanted to break the trailing rope.

[Captain KB]

Thanks for all the responses guys, I've never sen such an active and helpful forum community.



It says that the DM may rule that some objects simply cannot be effectively attacked by certain damage types in the section "Breaking Objects," in the chapter "Adventuring.".
This tidbit was a gargantuan help. I think my DM is going to stick with the idea that the only weapons that can damage the net will be a light bladed weapon, and when in the net one can only attack something (other than the net) with weapons that are usable in grapple situations. This with the -2 attack and the -4 dex and movement speed nerf will really put some use to my nets

Keep the net knowledge coming though, I'm going to need to know as mch as possible about them

[Bronk]

Wait, what? No. First, one hopes you're not actually adjacent to the guy you threw the net on since it'd provoke to throw it. Second, you're holding the trailing rope, not the net itself. It's attacking an unattended object, not a sunder. Maybe if you wanted to break the trailing rope.

Sure. First, you don't have to be adjacent to someone to in order to sunder, you just have to be close to the weapon. Second, the rope is part of the net, and unless you let go of it, it is attended, and you can control it by winning an opposed strength check.

So the netted enemy would be trying to free himself or make his sunder attack while you're actively preventing them from it using the rope to pull on the net. If you're too far away to take the attack of opportunity yourself, one of your allies might still be able to take advantage of it.

If you've thrown the net and let go, there's nothing stopping him from hopping away at half speed (entangled) and cutting himself free unopposed though.

[Darrin]

Older thread: Ways to optimize a net? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?309498-Ways-to-optimize-a-net)

[Flickerdart]

As an example, it points out that you can't break down a door with arrows.
This is the problem with rules written with humans in mind, (Game of Thrones spoilers) in a world that has many other kinds of creatures. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJXtFpeKmRQ)

[Captain KB]

Can anyone clarify if using a net and a weapon is considered dual-wielding. My DM said it was so i went ahead and grabbed that feat.
As a strongheart hin - fighter - I could pick 3 fears. I went with The DW feat and proficiency on both my weapons (net + flail) to make up for the attack nerf on dual wielding.

[Flickerdart]

Can anyone clarify if using a net and a weapon is considered dual-wielding.
"Dual-wielding" is not a game term. There's Two-Weapon Fighting, a specific combat maneuver in which you gain an off-hand attack but suffer attack penalties. Any one-handed weapon (including a net) can be used when Two-Weapon Fighting, but you can hold 100 weapons and never suffer TWF penalties if you never claim the extra attack and only use your iteratives.

[Vogonjeltz]

This is the problem with rules written with humans in mind, (Game of Thrones spoilers) in a world that has many other kinds of creatures.

Ranged Sunder! (CW)

There's also the net and trident fighting style feat in CW (throw net and make full attack with the trident). This required the TWF feat so presumably it counts as that.

[Coidzor]

Make the net Dwarvencraft (Races of Stone) and it might last another round: +2 hardness and +10 HP. You might be able to add Hellforged (DMGII) too: +1 hardness, +5 HP. Or make it out of Riverine (Stormwrack). 12000 GP, but nobody's gonna sunder that thing.

If you're looking for a good way to debuff someone with a thrown weapon, check out the Bola Flail in Ghostwalk:

You get a +2 bonus on disarm checks and you can trip with it. You can also trip with it as a thrown weapon. Make a ranged touch attack, if it hits your target must make a Str or Dex check DC 15 or they are tripped. Regardless of whether the trip works, your target also has to make a grapple check with your attack roll as the DC. If he fails, he is grappled. If he tries to sunder the bola flail, he really is limited to weapons he can only use in a grapple, because he actually is grappled. He can also get out of the grapple as a full-round action.

Ah, Good Old Riverine.

Can't believe I'd overlooked that. Thanks for pointing that one out to me.


Can anyone clarify if using a net and a weapon is considered dual-wielding. My DM said it was so i went ahead and grabbed that feat.
As a strongheart hin - fighter - I could pick 3 fears. I went with The DW feat and proficiency on both my weapons (net + flail) to make up for the attack nerf on dual wielding.

What flail did you buy proficiency in with a feat? You should already be proficient with any flails you'd want to wield in one hand from taking a level in Fighter. :smallconfused:

[Captain KB]

What flail did you buy proficiency in with a feat? You should already be proficient with any flails you'd want to wield in one hand from taking a level in Fighter. :smallconfused:

Just the regular old flail (deathball-and-chain attacked to a stick). My DM hates my character cause though in the "tank" I spend my turns entangling people, tripping people and grappling people (spiked breastplate).

Can you explain why I didn't need to take "weapon specialist: Flail"? Im vergin blood (when it comes to DnD), so if fighters are supposed to automatically get this feat then I could use it on one of the other feats I was considering.

[Captain KB]

Correction to my previous comment.
I took weapon focus for my flail. Sorry

[Andezzar]

I think that since the net is a weapon, and that even though it uses a ranged attack to hit, when you throw a it on something you still hold on to some kind of trailing ropes, this is more of a sunder.

In that case, the guy in the net would provoke an attack of opportunity, then have to make an opposed roll against you to see if he can damage the net in the first place, then make the attack.Even if that were the case, the net holder does not threaten the netted creature unless he has another weapon (most likely one with reach)

[Coidzor]

Just the regular old flail (deathball-and-chain attacked to a stick). My DM hates my character cause though in the "tank" I spend my turns entangling people, tripping people and grappling people (spiked breastplate).

Can you explain why I didn't need to take "weapon specialist: Flail"? Im vergin blood (when it comes to DnD), so if fighters are supposed to automatically get this feat then I could use it on one of the other feats I was considering.

Well, I suppose that's a form of harassment of the enemy that they'd want to stop, and they can't get at the rest of the party very easily if they're getting tripped and grappled. Lockdown builds are some of the few effectiveish forms of martial tankery anyway.


Correction to my previous comment.
I took weapon focus for my flail. Sorry

Ah, that'd do it then, yeah. I was worried you thought you needed to take a feat to get proficiency in light or heavy flails.