factotum//cleric vs. swordsage//cleric for a "holy" rogue type build. New to rogues.

[adriana]

So my high optimization campaign ended and my necro cleric won the battle and achieved ultimate power blah blah and so on. So I'm starting a new campaign and looking for something a bit different while still having some clerical roots. I thought playing a holy rogue/assassin might be fun for a change. Still a gestalt build. I'm also going to be twf fighting which is why I'm leaning towards sword sage and using the boost and save manuevers, shadows blade is nice as well as the shadow hand stances. I know that twf is not optimal vs. two handed but this is not a high optimization campaign so I have a little more luxury of fluff vs TO.

I'm used to clerics and i've never played a rogue type character before so I'm open for suggestions.

We're using a 60 point buyout, yes I know insane, and I've yet to distribute the points. So advice on that is welcomed too.

[Gildedragon]

so
Factotum:
pros:
more skills available
knowledge synergy (if going cloistered cleric)
trapfinding
all saves would be good saves
limited arcane casting
multiple standard actions per turn

cons:
mad: wisdom and int both become primary stats (less a problem with your point buy)
limited martial options

Swordsage
pros:
variety of matial skills
wisdom synergy
wisdom to AC
all saves are good saves

cons:
limited to light armor
not very many skills available (especially with int being secondary or tertiary)
no trapfinding (one of skillmonkey's key roles) unless you take the kobold domain

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Overall factotum fits the skillmonkey act better, but has less synergy with the cleric side than the swordsage.

The best option might be to take some levels in both classses. Dip in swordsage to improve your combat and versatility.

[adriana]

so
Factotum:
pros:
more skills available
knowledge synergy (if going cloistered cleric)
trapfinding
all saves would be good saves
limited arcane casting
multiple standard actions per turn

cons:
mad: wisdom and int both become primary stats (less a problem with your point buy)
limited martial options

Swordsage
pros:
variety of matial skills
wisdom synergy
wisdom to AC
all saves are good saves

cons:
limited to light armor
not very many skills available (especially with int being secondary or tertiary)
no trapfinding (one of skillmonkey's key roles) unless you take the kobold domain

---

Overall factotum fits the skillmonkey act better, but has less synergy with the cleric side than the swordsage.

The best option might be to take some levels in both classses. Dip in swordsage to improve your combat and versatility.

Yeah now that i think about it I might just take levels in both since my cleric side will be something along the lines of. cloistered cleric 15/paragnostic apostle 5.

I could go I guess factotum 9 for cunning surge and arcane dilettante( 4 spells) then sword sage 11 for 8th level maneuvers.

So a full build might look like.
factotum 9/swordsage 11// cloistered cleric 15/paragnostic apostle 5. Or something along those lines.

or just strait cloistered cleric on the back side. haven't made my mind up fully on that part also.

[adriana]

Anyone else or is

factotum 9/swordsage 11//cloistered cleric 15/paragnostic apostle 5 pretty solid?

[ben-zayb]

First of all, aside from Cunning Breach (at level 11) making it easier to land damage, Factotum really doesn't have much synergy with 1. Clerics and 2. TWF builds. Now, if you choose to use Archivist, that would be better, since you can go for something more synergistic like Archivist 17/ Swashbuckler3 gestalted with Factotum 19/ Decisive Strike Monk 1 (with Carmendine Monk). Cleric spells will give you all the buff you could possibly need in this case, so there'd be no need for maneuvers.

Alternatively, ask your DM if he allows classes on alternating sides of gestalt (gestalt sides are just abstractions after all), allowing you to get something like Factotum 6 / Swordsage 14 gestalted with Cleric 17 / Factotum +3 to get Cunning Surge (although Standard Actions and TWF doesn't mesh well as I've already said), 9th level maneuvers including Time Stands Still, and 9th level spells.

[adriana]

First of all, aside from Cunning Breach (at level 11) making it easier to land damage, Factotum really doesn't have much synergy with 1. Clerics and 2. TWF builds. Now, if you choose to use Archivist, that would be better, since you can go for something more synergistic like Archivist 17/ Swashbuckler3 gestalted with Factotum 19/ Decisive Strike Monk 1 (with Carmendine Monk). Cleric spells will give you all the buff you could possibly need in this case, so there'd be no need for maneuvers.

Alternatively, ask your DM if he allows classes on alternating sides of gestalt (gestalt sides are just abstractions after all), allowing you to get something like Factotum 6 / Swordsage 14 gestalted with Cleric 17 / Factotum +3 to get Cunning Surge (although Standard Actions and TWF doesn't mesh well as I've already said), 9th level maneuvers including Time Stands Still, and 9th level spells.

You make a good point. Archivist doesn't fit the "holy" vibe due to dark knowledge.

So I'll probably follow "keep it simple stupid" and go for swordsage 20/cleric20.The cleric side I'm not so worried about as I'm comfortable with the class and various buffs. It's the rogue side that I'm really working on. My original idea was swordsage due to the theme and the wisdom synergy with cleric. I threw factotum out there just to see a comparison and what people thought.

[Gildedragon]

You can go archivist until you prestige out (6th or so)
But dark knowledge needn't be "unholy" feeling
Dark could mean esoteric, rare, deep
Or so bright and enlightened that it can only be described by antonym. In that case you would have a very divinely inspired sorta fella, a quester and witness for the faith.
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With factotum I would recommend 8 rather than 9; 9 gives you an extra sla that you prolly don't need (with your cleric casting and all)