Cobalt Dragon Breath and Bull Rush Optimization

[WhamBamSam]

Since this question keeps getting buried in the simple Q&A thread, I figured I'd give it a thread of its own.

Cobalt Dragons (Dragon Magazine 356) have a nifty little breath weapon which deals force damage and carries the following nifty little secondary effect.


Additionally, creatures caught in the breath weapon are considered bull rushed by the dragon (with a check result equal to the damage dealt).

There are three ways that I can see this working.

1) The "check result" is just the strength check (1d20+Str) part of the bull rush. The dragon's size affects the check, as does anything else that you can add to Bull Rush checks (Improved Bull Rush, Brains Over Brawn, Mauling Gauntlets, etc).

2) The "check result" covers everything listed under Bull Rush in the SRD. The dragon's size doesn't matter, but other things that affect Bull Rush checks do.

3) The "check result" covers everything, period. You get a check equal to the damage dealt, and cannot be optimized to bull rush more effectively except through pumping said damage.

Anyone have any thoughts on how the RAW shakes out?

[Troacctid]

If I were DM'ing, I would rule it the 3rd way.

The wording is unclear, but adding size modifiers obviously makes no sense when your body isn't involved, and you certainly can't add stuff that affects Strength checks, because you aren't making a Strength check. You're breathing on them. Breath weapons aren't even Strength-based.

[Darrin]

I'd have to go with option #3. Using the word "equal" says to me that this ignores any other bull rush modifiers and just sets the result of the bull rush check = damage. If you want to pump up the bull rush check, then you have to pump up the damage.

[WhamBamSam]

If I were DM'ing, I would rule it the 3rd way.

The wording is unclear, but adding size modifiers obviously makes no sense when your body isn't involved, and you certainly can't add stuff that affects Strength checks, because you aren't making a Strength check. You're breathing on them. Breath weapons aren't even Strength-based.Careful with that whole 'making sense' thing. We're talking RAW here. And I could sort of see bigger dragon=>bigger breath=>higher check being reasonable.

Also, sensible or not, Str is going to get involved eventually. After all, what's the point of bull rushing if you aren't dungeoncrashing? That isn't relevant to the question in the OP though.

Anyhow, there seems to be consensus on the point, at least among the people who have posted in this thread, so let's figure out how hard the dragon can blow.

For younger dragons, standard breath blasting gear is a Crown of the North Wind and a Dragon Spirit Cincture. The crown lets you use young age for effects that depend on age category (such as damage) if that's more favorable, and the cincture adds an extra dice to breath weapon damage. So that's 7d4, 28 with Maximize Breath, provided the target fails their Ref save. I don't have any other means of cranking the damage offhand except for Breath Weapon Admixture, which as a 9th level spell is a bit out of reach especially as it would need to be persisted.

Older dragons could be Xorvintaal Dragons and wind up the breath on the preceding turn by using the Deep Breath ability (4 extra dice per move action used). That's off of a 9d4 base for a Young Adult (10d4 with a Dragon Spirit Cincture), so maybe that's starting to get somewhere. There's also a Xorvintaal ability that lets the dragon bull rush an enemy that provokes an AoO by flapping its wings (among other things), which provides at least a little bit of synergy.

[Necroticplague]

Well, I think the Ravenous dragon psychosis pumps up your breath weapon a bit.

[Troacctid]

Careful with that whole 'making sense' thing. We're talking RAW here. And I could sort of see bigger dragon=>bigger breath=>higher check being reasonable.

Of course, but dragons' breath weapons are Con-based, not Str. Bigger dragon, more damage, higher save DC, higher check.

[WhamBamSam]

Well, I think the Ravenous dragon psychosis pumps up your breath weapon a bit.Ravening allows you to use your breath weapon in three consecutive rounds before recharging (which incidentally means that you can put on as many metabreath effects as you want for free without worry, as most combats don't last more than 3+1d4 rounds anyway, so you're just recharging out of combat), raises the save DC, and increases your Str for dungeoncrashing damage, so it's certainly a great addition here, but it's not helping the damage/bull rush check.

[Gemini476]

Isn't Bigger Dragon=>Bigger Breath=>Higher Check already a thing, since the damage of your breath weapon increases with size and the check is based on that damage?

It starts at 2d4 (av. 5) for a tiny Wyrmling, for instance, whilst a gargantuan Great wyrm does 21d4 (av. 52).

Here's the text for the ability, if anyone is interested:

Breath Weapon (Su): A cobalt dragon has one type of breath weapon, a line of pulsing magnetic energy. Creatures within the area take force damage (Reflex half). Additionally, creatures within the area are considered bull rushed by the dragon (with a check result equal to the damage dealt). A cobalt dragon has immunity to the breath weapons of other cobalt dragons.

Also, the text for Bull Rush (only taking the relevant parts, here):

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results
If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

Since the check is ordinarily 1d20+Strength+Size, that entire thing gets replaced with your breath weapon damage. Whether or not any feats or items apply depend on what their language is - if they modify the check, they get replaced.

[Necroticplague]

Ravening allows you to use your breath weapon in three consecutive rounds before recharging (which incidentally means that you can put on as many metabreath effects as you want for free without worry, as most combats don't last more than 3+1d4 rounds anyway, so you're just recharging out of combat), raises the save DC, and increases your Str for dungeoncrashing damage, so it's certainly a great addition here, but it's not helping the damage/bull rush check.

Hmmm....Not quite the same things, but it has similar effects: there's a feat (power breath, I believe) that makes it so that using your breath weapon counts as a very strong wind, depending on your size. While it doesn't direclty helps with the bull-rushing, it can push back people before you do so with the same breath. And I know there's an item (gorget of the tempest) that gives you the feat. Though if you can get metabreaths essentially free, you can pump up damage by adding Empowered Breath a couple times.

[WhamBamSam]

Hmmm....Not quite the same things, but it has similar effects: there's a feat (power breath, I believe) that makes it so that using your breath weapon counts as a very strong wind, depending on your size. While it doesn't direclty helps with the bull-rushing, it can push back people before you do so with the same breath. And I know there's an item (gorget of the tempest) that gives you the feat. Though if you can get metabreaths essentially free, you can pump up damage by adding Empowered Breath a couple times.I think you mean Tempest Breath, which might be an alright idea for the bigger ones.

I can't find an Empowered Breath feat in any books. Is it in Dragon Magazine or something? Empower Supernatural Ability is a thing, but it's 1/day per feat you spend on it and can't be maximized.