Optimization (3.5)

[Enzario]

I am a veteran D&D player. Over the years, I have participated in several good campaigns (several bad ones) and know my way fairly well around the game. My only stumbling block is when I try to optimize a character, or multiclass to get the exact blend of abilities that would give me that extra edge.
I have a few friends that do this kind of thing quite well, but unfortunately they are lacking in teaching skills. They optimize their characters, and subsequently, I am left in the dust to take care of whatever they left behind.
So, in short, would someone (or two) please explain to me the basics of character optimization, and maybe give me a few tips?

[Arceliar]

Short version: Pick something(s) you want to be good at, adjust your feat, skill, and class level selection as appropriate. (Avoid becoming a 1-trick-pony, but remember that the thinner you spread your talents the worse you'll be at each of them).

Example: Characters such as rogue get sneak attack. This ability adds more to your damage than your melee attacks probably ever will. As a result, you should focus on getting the greatest number of reliable attack in, and put less effort into "normal" damage. This means it's best to Two Weapon Fight if you plan to stay in melee, or get feats such as Rapid Shot and Greater Manyshot if you plan to fight at range. However, as sneak attacking only works when a target is flat footed or you are flanking them, fighting at range with a bow proves more difficult. As a result, it is typically better to focus on two weapon fighting, letting ranged attacks function as a backup combat method. If you would choose to fight with ranged attacks on such a character, it would be best to multiclass for a few levels to obtain a higher base attack bonus and hence take better advantage of feats such as Greater Manyshot.

[CharPixie]

I don't optimize, so my advice is of limited use, but if I did I'd...

...research. On this forum alone you get a lot of posts about what's too good and what's weak. It's better to do a forum search before looking through all the source books. (Which many people have done, I admit. But I wouldn't have the patience to do so as a player. As a GM, I'd see limitless sources of fun new opposition.)

...focus. The sweet zone of optimization is min/maxing so that what you do well, you do really well, and what you don't do well, you don't do.

...be great. On the whole, I've noticed a rule in optimization. Take only what's great. I've seen feats like Weapon Focus derided constantly because even through they are always good, they are never great, and every missed chance at being great is one more step to being normal.

...consider spellcasting. With the exception of the frenzied raging maddened annoyed bezerker barbarian style warriors, a lot of the optimizations seem to use spells. That said, mixing in some random spellcasting will rarely help; usually, you need a plan on how to use your spells.

That's what I've noticed. As far as I can tell, the real secret is knowing the best PrCs, feats, and spells, and mixing them into any build you might want.

[TheOOB]

Basically, all that is contained in character optimization (min/maxing) is getting the most benefit at the smallest cost. For example, two weapon fighting is generally considered a poor option because you trade 3+ feats and 2 points of attack bonus for an unappriciable difference in damage over a 2h weapon (or even less damage if you are making good use of power attack.

Similarly, you can cast fireball to deal damage to a group, or, with the same 3rd level spell slot you can cast stinking cloud which will completely lock down your opponents letting you do with them what you wish.

[Miles Invictus]

One word: Synergy. Your race, classes, skills, and feats should work together so that your weaknesses are minimized and the thing you want to optimize is maximized.

I'll attempt to illustrate this using a fairly standard optimized template: the party face. As the face, you do the speaking. This means you want to optimize social skills -- primarily Diplomacy. How do you do that?

First, you figure out which race is the best choice. Of the core races, Half-Elves get a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information, so you pick that race.

Now, since you're socially-focused, you want a high Charisma and a class that can make use of it. Which class is that? Of the core classes, Paladin, Rogue, and Bard all make logical choices, as they all benefit from Charisma and have a few social skills. However, Bards get a lot more out of Charisma than the either two classes -- you can put your highest score in Charisma without sacrificing effectiveness. So you pick Bard as your class. For the sake of calculation, we'll assume you have a Charisma of 16, for a modifier of +3.

Bards are ideal for social skills; they have a base six skill points per level, and all social skills are class skills. So, clearly, you put points in Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Sense Motive (and maybe Intimidate, if you think it'll be useful). At first level, you can put four ranks in each. To point out the obvious, that's a +4 bonus.

Next, you want to pick out appropriate feats. Persuasive gives a +2 bonus to Bluff/Intimidate, Negotiator gives a +2 to Diplomacy/Sense Motive, Investigator gives a +2 to Gather Information/Search. And there are the Skill Focus feats that give you a +3 to any one skill. Given your race and class, you only get one feat at first level. For this hypothetical build, we'll assume you pick Negotiator, for a +2 to Diplomacy.

At first level, here's what you get:
Bluff: +3 (Cha mod), +4 (skill ranks) = +7
Gather Information: +2 (race), +3 (Cha mod), +4 (skill ranks) = +9
Diplomacy. +2 (race), +3 (Cha mod), +4 (skill ranks), +2 (feat) = +11

The DC to change someone's attitude from Hostile to Unfriendly is 20. Given a minute to speak, you have a better than 50% chance of improving their attitude.

This is not the optimized Diplomacy build! For the optimized build, you have to take into account a few additional synergies, and wait until level 2. At second level, you can put five ranks into skills, which is the minimum requirement for skill synergies. You gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy for putting five ranks in each of the following skills: Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), and Sense Motive. As a Bard, you have the skill points to spare, too, netting you another +6 on Diplomacy rolls.

At second level, you have a +18 to your Diplomacy rolls: +2 (race), +3 (Cha mod), +5 (ranks), +6 (synergies), +2 (feat). Given a minute to speak, you can improve a Hostile individual's attitude on a roll of 2. If you take a -10 penalty, you can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action -- and still have a roughly 50% chance of convincing your opponent that fighting isn't the best option.

By third level, you can take another rank, as well as Skill Focus (Diplomacy), raising your bonus to +22. Given a minute to speak, you're virtually guaranteed to improve any Hostile individual's attitude to Indifferent (DC 25), and you stand a decent chance of actually making them Friendly (DC 35).

Anyway, this is a pretty standard diplomacy build. In fact, you've probably seen it before. But...I figure going through it step-by-step might help you get into the optimization mindset.

[ShadowYRM]

It depends on your DM and the people you play with.

Some classes compliment each other very well if you have players who work together and a DM who supports that.

Monk + Druid + Rogue has a lot of great synergy.

Monk stuns & flanks foes, setting up sneak attacks.
Druid buffs Monk, improves Natural Armor and Magic Fists (GMF).
Monk & Rogue with high initiative can set up early Sneak Attack, Trip/Stun, Opportunist combos.

A core blend of those 3 classes can handle front line combat while another caster goes to work.

So part of optimization is party synergy.

It also helps if the DM supports a wide variety of skills and abilities with the challenges he presents.

If the DM fudges dice rolls all the time to set up his story, and his story calls for your party to be ambushed, a +29 Spot and Listen check while under the effects of See Invisibility and Detect Magic won't help you.

So consider the DM's style. If the DM plays most things by the book, you should be able to take advantage of the things you've put energy into.

Try to have a useful colections of tricks, skills and defenses. Focus on areas where you'll get a lot of return on investment.

A ranger or monk with MANY attacks per round would do well to add anything which would buff those attacks by even +1.

+1 to hit for 3 attacks (when you're overhitting as a barbarian anyway) isn't as good as +1 to hit for 6 attacks when you need the extra boost.

If your DM emphasizes tactical combat on a variety of battlefields, MOVEMENT is a big factor in being effective. INITIATIVE is another huge factor.

A lot of it goes back to D&D Miniature principles, if you play that game.

It also can't hurt to run your build ideas past a friend you trust... even if they can't explain how they optimize, they might be able to offer a few bits of advice that are concrete.

Any PC Class can be built effectively and will be useful if the DM presents a variety of situations.

Good luck.

[TheOOB]

While it is true any PC class can be "effetive" it should be noted that not all classes are built the same. For example, bards generally have little combat application outside of very large groups, barbarians and paladins have very few good abilities past level 5, there is little reason to take full rogue progression, and any class that casts spells is better then a class who doesn't.

If you want to be powerful with little effort, play a cleric or druid.

[ShadowYRM]

Anyway, this is a pretty standard diplomacy build. In fact, you've probably seen it before. But...I figure going through it step-by-step might help you get into the optimization mindset.

That's good stuff.

When I'm adjudicating role-playing interactions, I do something like this:
- If the player is speaking calm truth, it's Diplomacy.
- If the player is lying, it's a Bluff.
- If the player is angry or threatening, it's Intimidation.

I add a circumstance modifier based on how well the PC is role playing and roll their check behind my screen (if it's a bluff, but the enemy senses it, the enemy may choose to bluff back and "play along").

So if the PC wants to use Diplomacy to get past some bodyguards, but the PC's real agenda is to kill the bodyguard's target of protection, the PC might have a really hard time keeping that discussion purely in the Diplomacy range.

For some highly intelligent NPCs, if the PCs try to influence the attitude, I may use an opposed Diplomacy check rather than the chart. This is a house rule that we use to prevent NPCs Diplomats and Dragons from being easily swindled by a silver tongue.

It's typically used in a case where the target is nearly as good or better at Diplomacy than the PC.

So far, this method has given great power to "the party face" without allowing them to talk a dragon out of it's treasure or otherwise use Diplomacy as a "Domination" spell (not saying you were suggesting that, but, some DMs have had problems with that in the past).

[ShadowYRM]

While it is true any PC class can be "effetive" it should be noted that not all classes are built the same. For example, bards generally have little combat application outside of very large groups, barbarians and paladins have very few good abilities past level 5, there is little reason to take full rogue progression, and any class that casts spells is better then a class who doesn't.

If you want to be powerful with little effort, play a cleric or druid.

Our groups always start at Level 1 and progress slowly to high levels.

I do play a cleric in one of those groups, and I find that it has plenty of limitations, in spite of being, (and I agree with you) the 2nd most survivable and versitile class in the game.

The non-casters have many abilities that are "always on".

It takes a lot less effort to play a Barbarian at near 100% effectiveness than it takes to play a Druid at the peak of it's power (so many more things to keep track of).

We generally find ourselves pressed by deadlines, dealing with dangerous terrain, and running short of the resources that aren't "always on" like Min/Level spells and Rnd/Level spells.

So for us, the lion's share of the campaign is spent between levels 1 and 13, and by the time we get to 14-18, we're in the final chapters.

So sure, each class has a power curve, but by level 18, with the right group synergy, every class has still taken the spotlight.

I'd say, overall, the Druid has been the strongest PC, and that player is very good, but he has had his sessions where he really couldn't contribute as much. Last session, he was hit with Enervation several times and lost a lot of his top level spells. His touch AC was too low and he didn't have Death Ward on.

Another session, the Druid walked through a Wall of Dispelling and lost all of his buffs while I unknowingly D-Doored myself and another fighter past the wall and we took care of the heroics in that fight.

So, in general, yeah, past L10, the casters power curve is going up, but, depending on the campaign, it's not a given that the casters will always shine.

[TheOOB]

Saying that non-casters having abilities that are always "on" is really not a valid argument. By the time the casters are running low on spells, the fighters are running low on hp.

Truth be told, if you want to play a non-spellcaster you have to build your character extreamly well to even compeate with a spellcaster, the difference is that huge. I mean a barbarian between levels 6 and 20 doesn't gain any abilities that can't easily be replicated with a low level spell.

It is my strong suggestion that anyone who wants to play a good combat character get the Tome of Battle, martial adepts are still weaker then casters, but at least they are close.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Gentlemen, BEHOLD!

http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339

I'm amazed this doesn't get referred to more often. Your number one source for power, gimmicks, and borderline cheating in contemporary D&D. Aside from their famous ridiculous hypotheticals and infinite loops, they're also willing to help a player fit mechanics around a concept in the best way possible. If the player's willing to put up with their sneering derision for, say, wanting more than five levels of Paladin in their build.

[Zincorium]

Yeah, the optomization boards are one of the few places in the WotC forums where you can hear the gears in people's minds turning, I honestly don't visit most of the other subsections anymore. A few pointers on that specifically: Read the guidelines, it'll work out a lot better for you, if you have preferences, such as very little multiclassing/Prcs, make that known from the start, and don't get hostile if they flat out tell you to do something completely different, realize they might have a reason that needs to be addressed, if not in the exact way they say.

As far as optimization in general:
We all play in actual games, where just because something might work, doesn't mean it will. Avoid the cheap stuff that is obvious, or at the very minimum make it a side point to your build rather than the only thing it can do.

Look at everything you want to accomplish, and then pare it down to what you actually expect to be doing. Look through all the books you have for things which you can see using all the time. If class features aren't used, they're wasted. If you're a charge happy barbarian, things like shock trooper and leap attack should seem good. If it seems good, look at how much benefit you are getting. If it's a temporary, small bonus, then it's almost never worth it.

Finally, pay attention to the 'min' part of min/max, that is, minimizing the weaknesses of what you're doing. If you're looking to be a sneak attacker, look for things which let you use sneak attack on normally immune targets. If you don't have a lot of hit points or armor class because you're focused on spells, look at getting the most duration or the quickest casting for defensive spells so that you don't fall victim to a lucky shot early in the battle.

[ShadowYRM]

Saying that non-casters having abilities that are always "on" is really not a valid argument. By the time the casters are running low on spells, the fighters are running low on hp.

That's not our experience. Part of the reason why a caster may run low on spells is to heal other PCs in the group so the group can continue forward on a tight deadline.

An ability like evasion for a ranger or rogue is always on, and it's always saving HP damage. An ability like improved uncanny dodge is often sparing the barbarian sneak attack damage that others take during a night attack.


Truth be told, if you want to play a non-spellcaster you have to build your character extreamly well to even compeate with a spellcaster, the difference is that huge. I mean a barbarian between levels 6 and 20 doesn't gain any abilities that can't easily be replicated with a low level spell.

We also find that rounds/level spells aren't always easy to cast in advance of a fight. Some intelligent enemies will make a feint and fall back for the express purpose of burning up prep-spells (haste, rage, divine power, etc).

The barbarian's damage reduction or uncanny dodge aren't going away in five rounds.


It is my strong suggestion that anyone who wants to play a good combat character get the Tome of Battle, martial adepts are still weaker then casters, but at least they are close.

Suggestion noted... however, since we've built very effective combat characters within the recommended stat ranges and wealth guidelines, I'm not looking at it as a problem.

The PHB2, Complete Warrior and Complete Adventurer provide lots of interesting options.

Further, since we're not playing RPGA with strangers, the group tends to work very effectively as a team, with casters setting up combat guys and vice versa (perhaps stunning a target to make it easier to hit with a ray).

There are a lot of levels between 1 and 16 where combat classes can shine. We do keep to the wealth guidelines and follow all of the rules for casting, such as spellbook costs, resting & preperation, counterspelling, concentration, grappling, silence spells, penalties for deafness (thunderstones at low levels hurt casters), etc.

We don't get a result that compels us to complain endlessly about imbalance, and, in fact, we quite enjoy the game. Maybe we're doing it wrong.

[oriong]

Don't worry, most arguements for the superiority of casters are heavily exaggerated. Not to say they don't have advantages (especially if you're playing D+D in ways it wasn't designed to be played) but they aren't nearly as godlike as many people paint them, once you get down to real practical play.

Most of the actual unbalanced aspects of casters come from poorly made and thought out individual spells rather than the classes themselves.

[Darrin]

First, you figure out which race is the best choice. Of the core races, Half-Elves get a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information, so you pick that race.


Not optimal. Anything you could possibly do with a half-elf, you can do better with a full-blooded human or elf. For example, you could go human and take Skill Focus: Diplomacy for +3 or Negotiator, and on top of that you get the human's extra skill points. Add the Magic-Blooded template from DR#306 for -2 Wis/+2 Cha. If you go with a Charisma-based elf caster, take the Star Elf subrace for -2 Con/+2 Cha. Add Magic-Blooded for +4 Cha.




Now, since you're socially-focused, you want a high Charisma and a class that can make use of it. Which class is that? Of the core classes, Paladin, Rogue, and Bard all make logical choices, as they all benefit from Charisma and have a few social skills. However, Bards get a lot more out of Charisma than the either two classes -- you can put your highest score in Charisma without sacrificing effectiveness. So you pick Bard as your class. For the sake of calculation, we'll assume you have a Charisma of 16, for a modifier of +3.


Note *quite* optimal. Clerics also get diplomacy as a class skill (but the 2 skill points per level teh sucks). If the campaign is combat-heavy or your party is short on tanks, going Paladin might be best because you'll be able to hold your own in a scrap, but at 7th level the Cleric gets Divine Power, and which point he's just as good as a Paladin in a fight, and pwns the Paladin at everything else.

Rogues make the best skill-monkeys, but all a high Cha does is help them bluff/feint better, which isn't optimal because at best you'll get only one attack with sneak damage.

Bards... can be a bit underpowered, but as a support class, they really shine. Look for feats/PrCs that let you buff your Diplomacy focus through bardic music. You can also rebuild a bard into a more powerful caster via Sublime Chord, which gives you 9th level Sor/Wiz spells.

As far as Charisma-based casters go... Shugenja might work but the limited spell selection pretty much kills 'em. I keep hearing that Beguilers are whoopass on toast, so I'd look there before going to bard.

[Darrin]

So, in short, would someone (or two) please explain to me the basics of character optimization, and maybe give me a few tips?

The three cardinal commandments of PC optimization:

1. Thou shalt go to Crystalkeep and study the sacred PDFs.

(http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php has compiled nearly every feat, PrC, and template into indexed PDFs that you can search through. This allows you to cherry-pick the best stuff without buying every single book, or at least tells you which books you need to buy for that perfect feat/PrC/etc. Crystalkeep is mostly current up through 4/14/06, so it's missing some of the newer stuff.

2. Thou shalt search the GitP and WotC Character Optimization boards.

(The odds are very high that whatever you're looking for, someone has already designed an optimal build and posted it, doing most of the work for you. Also a great way to dig up interesting/possibly broken combos that may not be apparent from digging into the Crystalkeep PDFs. Want to build a Fochlucan Lyricist? There's a fabulous thread with several example builds, and lots of advice on getting around the really odd requirements. There's another thread just for Tome of Battle builds.)

3. Thou shalt ask thine fellow forum members for assistance.

(When you've settled on a concept and have a rough idea of what you want, post a sample build and ask for optimization help. If you missed anything from Commandment 1 or 2, someone will no doubt mention it, or point you towards an optimization thread somewhere else, or suggest something from an obscure or new book that can help the build.)

The key to optimization is, as someone else already pointed out, synergy. Your racial abilities, your stats, your class abilities, your feats, and your skills should all work towards your concept.

Since you usually pick your race before you take any levels or feats, that's usually a good starting point. Dwarves, for example, have some racial abilities that synergize well:

* Stability. The +4 to keep your footing makes them ideal for trip builds.
* Favored Class: Fighter means they can easily dip into Fighter for a level or two to pick up trip-related feats, or snag that Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain.
* Encumbrance bonus. Sure, you're not winning any 100-meter dashes, but heavy armor or heavy loads won't slow you down.
* Bonuses against Goblinoids and Giants work well with Favored Enemies.
* Weapon Familiarity with Dwarven Waraxe and Urgrosh means you can save a feat if you want to optimize TWF. A Dwarven Ranger with Oversize TWF could use two Dwarven Waraxes, one in each hand. Or spend that feat on something else and use the Urgrosh as a double-weapon.
* Darkvision means you don't have to worry about holding a torch in one hand, so you can do the whole TWF thing or go sword+board or Urgrosh and can still see in the dark.

So just starting there you can already see a few optimization builds, such as a spiked chain uber-tripper (Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and Knockdown). Add two ranger levels and a spiked mithril breastplate for TWF (designate your armor spikes as offhand attacks), stack your racial bonuses against orcs/goblins with Favored Enemy. Add a level of Cleric with the Strength domain to get Enlarge Person, which increases your reach to 15'.