OOTS #955 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[super dark33]

Greatest outrage of all :smalltongue:.

[M.A.D]

New comic is up.

Ahahahah!! SO loving Blackwing's attitude! XD

[Adun]

I want to see the giant Roc!!!

[Dracon1us]

Wizards :smallamused:

[Keltest]

And so the plot... stays at exactly the same consistency.

But yay, Blackwing!

[Garwain]

That required some.... lightning fast reflexes.

[Mutant Sheep]

Oh Blackwing. Also, Oh Belkar. You know proof doesn't stop anybody in D&D. :smalltongue:

[Qaanol]

Ooh, giddy anticipation!

[Phantom Thief]

I don't know the specifics of how a forcewall is supposed to work in terms of physics, but I'm doubtful as to the effectiveness of that blocking strategy. And a bit moreso about trying to put lighting in a forcecage. You might even say Im... shocked.

What V ought to do is fly above the clouds and case lightning bolt at an angle away from the ship towards the ground and discharge the cloud that way. But if Forcewall DOES work that way, kudos on some VERY good reaction times there.

[brujon]

Is Thor trying to strike down the airship, or is it wishful thinking of mine?

[Kenage]

Blackwing continues to become the best character in the strip, while Roy hides behind his guilt, wanting so much for something to be true.

[Keltest]

I don't know the specifics of how a forcewall is supposed to work in terms of physics, but I'm doubtful as to the effectiveness of that blocking strategy. And a bit moreso about trying to put lighting in a forcecage. What V ought to do is fly above the clouds and case lightning bolt at an angle away from the ship towards the ground and discharge the cloud that way. But if Forcewall DOES work that way, kudos on some VERY good reaction times there.

The specifics are: Magic. I see no reason an impenetrable barrier would not stop a lightning strike.

[BowStreetRunner]

I don't know the specifics of how a forcewall is supposed to work in terms of physics, but I'm doubtful as to the effectiveness of that blocking strategy. And a bit moreso about trying to put lighting in a forcecage. What V ought to do is fly above the clouds and case lightning bolt at an angle away from the ship towards the ground and discharge the cloud that way. But if Forcewall DOES work that way, kudos on some VERY good reaction times there.

I had to look up the spell myself to be sure, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. As to the forcecage, it won't fit around the ship but by putting it between the ship and the lightning it should work.

[Heksefatter]

I can't help noticing how V calls Durkula 'the former Master Thundershield.' Suspicion? Nah...I am prolly reading too much into it.

Also, I love Blackwing.

[Anarion]

I really hope we get to see Blackwing as a giant roc. If for no other than the fact that once the Giant makes the model, it will be so convenient to just use it again the next time V needs an interesting plan to polymorph something. Then the great rock Blackwing, lord of all dinosaurs! can become a standard part of the comic. :smallbiggrin:

[Phantom Thief]

I see no reason an impenetrable barrier would not stop a lightning strike.

Well lightning is an arc of electric current, and you can't just stop current midway through its path. Whatever arcane power thing is making the wall could be a voltage drain I guess.

[Keltest]

Well lightning is an arc of electric current, and you can't just stop current midway through its path. Whatever arcane power thing is making the wall could be a voltage drain I guess.

It wouldn't be impenetrable if something could get through it.

[Ezekiel]

I'm waiting with giddy anticipation for the Blackwing polymorphing!

[BeethroBudkin07]

Another fun page, Giant!

I wonder what Belkar will do about the vampire Durkon... And I loved the interactions between V and Blackwing.

Can't wait for more! :smallbiggrin:

[Phantom Thief]

It wouldn't be impenetrable if something could get through it.
Well if it just has really high resistance the lightning wouldn't go through it, it would just go around it. You know, electricity takes the path of least resistance and all that?

[DigoDragon]

Hee hee, hilarious. I'm glad V is good buddies with his familiar, they have some of the best banter.

[elros]

I don't know what is more amazing:
1) V using his spells in a clever manner,
2) further proof of the difference between Tier 1 spellcasters and everyone else,
3) the anticipation of a roc'ed out Blackwing!

But it does seem that Thor is pretty determined to take out the ship. Can't be good for the OOTS...

[Cicciograna]

The Wall of Force, as per the spell description, can be only vertical, and from the drawing it does not seem to be the case.

However, who cares. The feat V accomplished was awesome, and I can't wait to see the Roc.

[Grimly Feendish]

I'm waiting with giddy anticipation for the Blackwing polymorphing!

Me too and to see the resin model of the Roc

[Keltest]

The Wall of Force, as per the spell description, can be only vertical, and from the drawing it does not seem to be the case.

However, who cares. The feat V accomplished was awesome, and I can't wait to see the Roc.

Given that the rules are regularly ignored whenever convenient (as per normal D&D) I see no issue with this.

[Psyren]

Wall of Force blocks line of effect, therefore it blocks lightning just fine. The only truly iffy part here is noticing lightning before it fires and interposing the barrier in time.

(Not that the Giant cares about our rules squabbling anyway :smallbiggrin: )

I'm also looking forward to RocWing though I do find it amusing V only uses Polymorph (an extremely useful spell) for the most niche situations. It's not like a Roc couldn't have trounced an Imp after all :smalltongue:

[ChristianSt]

I can't help noticing how V calls Durkula 'the former Master Thundershield.' Suspicion? Nah...I am prolly reading too much into it.

Also, I love Blackwing.

:smalleek: I didn't noticed this - at least to me this signals that V thinks that Vampire!Durkon != Durkon. Though I don't really understand why he/she doesn't say something about it.


Though I'm now kinda unsure if this is really Thor's work. :smallconfused:
Especilly if V knows how Control Weather works, wouldn't it be better to just dismiss the storm to make it even clearer that Thor is meddling with the weather?

Or does Thor really want to shoot the Mechane? Is he aware of Hel's plan somehow and wants to stop the High Priest of Hel ASAP?

[A.A.King]

Once again a great comic, I always really like the back and forth between V and Blackwing

[Kish]

Is he aware of Hel's plan somehow and wants to stop the High Priest of Hel ASAP?
Things I am pretty sure Thor knows:
1) Hel does not like me. (Where's the smallindifferent smiley?)
2) Hel has a new High Priest, her first cleric ever. :smallannoyed:
3) IT'S THE VAMPIRE OF ONE OF MY MOST POWERFUL PRIESTS. :smallfurious:

Things Thor probably doesn't know:
1) The precise details of Hel's plan.

[Candorio]

Damn that was quick!

[137beth]

Hurray for V doing everything:smallsmile:

Also, in the previous discussion thread, Kish was right: Belkar is sabotaging himself by showing that nothing High Priest of Hel does could possibly convince Belkar not to want to kill him.

[Phantom Thief]

I'm thinking the storm will escalate, V will have to polymorph Black wing resulting in a giant stone bird, and the title of the next panel will be "ROC me like a hurricane"

[otakuryoga]

oh that last panel
total awesomeness

[CoffeeIncluded]

Please show that, Giant. The world demands it! :smallbiggrin:

[rman]

"Former master Thundershield"

What would True Seeing show you about who a person is when looking at a Vampire?

Did V have TS up in the temple?

[Dr. Gamera]

CANNOT WAIT FOR GARGANTUAN ROC.

Actually, you know, the mental image is enough. Either gargantuan roc or whatever superior plot development ensues is fine.

[Jay R]

Well lightning is an arc of electric current, and you can't just stop current midway through its path. Whatever arcane power thing is making the wall could be a voltage drain I guess.

That is correct in a world in which lightning is a discharge of electrons going mindlessly along the line of electric potential as negative charge attracts positive charge. But in such a world, people (and gods) cannot direct it to specific chosen targets.

Therefore, lightning doesn't work that way in D&D.

[Cicciograna]

I think that V is starting to figure that something is off. I'm sure he remembers what Durkon said after Miko smote Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html).
Now, the storm is clearly hampering the party, so according to Durkon's word, since Thor is his patron deity then the God of Storms does not want them to succeed: at that time, Durkon chose not to act, whereas now he's actively trying to go against his god's will, against a storm that is not only delaying them, but that's also apparently trying to kill them, since this is the second lightning directed straight towards the Mechane. One lightning is an accident, two are a clue, three make a proof, four and more are experimental evidence: Thor is against them.
V is smart. Something tells me that soon he'll be taken again into the IFCC's custody.

[UristMcRandom]

As far as Rocwing goes, I'm betting he'll be a mostly off-panel occurance, possibly seen when Control Weater finally takes full effect and V can return to the ship, though likely only briefly before Polymorph is dispelled/dismissed.

Oh, and great comic, can't wait for the next one!

[Finagle]

Eh, if I was DM there's no way I would have allowed that lightning blocking thing. That sort of thing just has "munchkin" written all over it, and as soon as players get the idea they can pull stunts like that they just go more munchkin the next time. It's lightning, it's literally at the speed of light. Even if it is a god throwing them.

[zimmerwald1915]

I want to see the giant Roc!!!
It's not Blackwing, and it's from before several art upgrades, but here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html).

[Keltest]

Eh, if I was DM there's no way I would have allowed that lightning blocking thing. That sort of thing just has "munchkin" written all over it, and as soon as players get the idea they can pull stunts like that they just go more munchkin the next time. It's lightning, it's literally at the speed of light. Even if it is a god throwing them.

It actually is possible to predict where lightning will strike, to a very VERY limited degree. I don't know about the "looking at the clouds" thing Blackwing did, but if you could see the start and finish points, it wouldn't be impossible to put something in between if you could react nearly instantly.

besides, the Giant went to art school.

[Zombimode]

I don't know the specifics of how a forcewall is supposed to work in terms of physics, but I'm doubtful as to the effectiveness of that blocking strategy. And a bit moreso about trying to put lighting in a forcecage. You might even say Im... shocked.

What V ought to do is fly above the clouds and case lightning bolt at an angle away from the ship towards the ground and discharge the cloud that way. But if Forcewall DOES work that way, kudos on some VERY good reaction times there.

Well, here is how it works on a mechanical level:

First, we have to establish that by conventional wisdom, that a lightning strike has a direction and thus travels from point A to point B along a line. This may not be the way it works in reality, but is how it works in most fiction (and for the entirety "lightning strike" type spells in D&D).

Blackwing observes the sky and readies and action to shout and point when it sees a strike forming.
V readies an action to cast Wall of Force at a point between the source of the lightning strike and the airship. Since most readied actions occur just before the action triggering them, the Wall of Force is cast just before the lightning actually strikes.

A Wall of Force (as well as the walls of a Force Cage) simply blocks Line-of-Effect. Since we already established that a lightning will travel from one point to another, its progression is stopped by the Wall of Forces since that is what blocking Line-of-Effect does.

[Psyren]

The wall of force thing is sort of possible by readying an action (which also happens basically at the speed of light.)

Rocwing as a feathery lightning umbrella most definitely would work though.

[HandofShadows]

Still liking how V looks (All the characters look) with the new art. And looking forward to a Roc soon. :smallbiggrin:

[Ezekiel]

I'm thinking the storm will escalate, V will have to polymorph Black wing resulting in a giant stone bird, and the title of the next panel will be "ROC me like a hurricane"

Thanks, now I'm going to have that song in my head all day long. :smallbiggrin:

[ellindsey]

It's lightning, it's literally at the speed of light. Even if it is a god throwing them.

Despite the name, lightning is not made of light, and does not travel anywhere close to the speed of light. You can actually see the propagation downwards from cloud to ground with a high speed camera. Of course, it should still be impossible to react quickly enough to block it under any reasonable conditions, but electricity in D&D doesn't follow the same physics as it does in our world.

[Lexible]

I LOVE the call out to Gene Wilder in The Producers!!! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[colanderman]

I think what y'all are forgetting is that lightning is literally thrown like a javelin by Thor.

Actual physics of lightning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning#Lightning_flashes_and_strikes) (which propagates downward slowly as a progressively lengthening ionized channel of air, followed by an rapid upward electric discharge along this channel) be damned!

[Gift Jeraff]

I can't help noticing how V calls Durkula 'the former Master Thundershield.' Suspicion? Nah...I am prolly reading too much into it.

I think V realizes that "Durkon" has changed so fundamentally that it would be inaccurate to still call him that, regardless of whether or not it's still technically Durkon in control. S/he did witness him uncharacteristically freak out about the staff.

[Peelee]

That required some.... lightning fast reflexes.
You, sir, made my day.

It's lightning, it's literally at the speed of light. Even if it is a god throwing them.


Lightning travels at 93,000 miles/second. Light travels at 186,000 miles/second. Lightning is electricity, not light. It travels at the speed of lightning. Literally. Even if it is a god throwing it.

[AutomatedTeller]

I think V realizes that "Durkon" has changed so fundamentally that it would be inaccurate to still call him that, regardless of whether or not it's still technically Durkon in control. S/he did witness him uncharacteristically freak out about the staff.


Funny comic. Unbelievably reflexes, but that's why V is a hero, after all.

[multilis]

The specifics are: Magic. I see no reason an impenetrable barrier would not stop a lightning strike.
Real life physics:

Problem 1 is lightning being a charge would normally go around any barrier it could not go through. (Still could work in making lightning miss the ship)
Problem 2 is having fast enough reflexes to stop something moving at nearly the speed of light.
Problem 3 is technically supposed to only allow vertical wall, rather than horizontal.

It takes cartoon physics to make this work.


Update: Lightning (air plasma bridge?) *might* travel as slow as 3,700 miles per second in air, still absurdly extreme.

It is a little complicated as first you have the bridge of plasma forming which will be comparatively low energy, then as soon as connection is made, more and more energy would flow which would widen the bridge between both ends... sort of like a river of water flowing through a sand dam.

Cut off the lightning when the bridge is forming, and the bridge finds a different route, the main energy pushing has not been released yet. Sort of like plugging a tiny hole in a sand dam, water will find another way, once a different hole forms it rapidly grows.

[Toper]

Nice! I didn't think Thor would give up that easily -- he's probably aiming for Durkula directly at this point. I also like the comic title.

Sadly, even Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) is restricted to max 15 HD creatures, and a Roc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm) has 18 hit dice.

[Peelee]

Real life physics:

Problem 1 is lightning being a charge would normally go around any barrier it could not go through. (Still could work in making lightning miss the ship)
Problem 2 is having fast enough reflexes to stop something moving at nearly the speed of light.

It takes cartoon physics to make this work.

Half the speed of light is not nearly the speed of light. One (of the many) cool things about math is that the bigger the numbers get, the bigger difference fractions make. if you travel half a billion light years and your friend travels a billion light years, you guys are HOLY CRAP seriously you literally cannot actually conceptualize this distance REALLY far apart. Not "nearly as far as your friend traveled."

[ORione]

V is smart. Something tells me that soon he'll be taken again into the IFCC's custody.

To prevent them from warning the rest of the order about HPoH? Why would the IFCC care about that?

[Eloi]

I like how V is taking great pains to protect the rest of the crew; she's had a lot of character development since two arcs ago. :smallsmile:

[Small note: Just noticed I said she instead of they; not sure what makes me think V is a lady elf, but yes.]

[Ave]

Can V cast two spells after spotting the second lightning? Shouldn't he start casting at least the protection spell?

[Kish]

There's no rule saying Vaarsuvius would have to change Blackwing into an adult roc.

[Mike Havran]

Actually, V and Blackwing were flying in higher altitude than the ship. If that was a natural lightning, it should have hit them, instead of the ship. If V is clever enough she could figure out that somebody targeted the ship on purpose after former Master Thundershield started with appeasing his god.

[Sir_Leorik]

That required some.... lightning fast reflexes.

Elves do get a +2 bonus to Dexterity. :smallwink:

EDIT: Also, the fact that V could tell that Blackwing wanted V sitting on his shoulder was hilarious. Looks like that Empathic Link is more efficient these days. :smalltongue:

[Lord Of Mantas]

Aww, c'mon Varsuuvius. Let Blackwing have this one thing.

[Metahuman1]

V: Just humor the bird, no one will know.

Thor: GET YOUR **** IN GEAR AND JUST FREAKING THROW MORE LIGHTING FORM MORE DIRECTIONS THEN THEY CAN COUNTER ALREADY, ALL AT ONCE!!!!!!!!!

I hate this subplot, I just want it over!

[multilis]

Half the speed of light is not nearly the speed of light. One (of the many) cool things about math is that the bigger the numbers get, the bigger difference fractions make. if you travel half a billion light years and your friend travels a billion light years, you guys are HOLY CRAP seriously you literally cannot actually conceptualize this distance REALLY far apart. Not "nearly as far as your friend traveled."
Half the speed of light is incorrect number as far as I can tell. Real number is a complicated range starting from nearly speed of light.

Any number close to speed of light is effectively the same in short distance from human speed reflexes, takes fancy experiment tricks to tell a difference with normal human reflexes.

[SteveDJ]

Lightning travels at 93,000 miles/second. Light travels at 186,000 miles/second. Lightning is electricity, not light. It travels at the speed of lightning. Literally. Even if it is a god throwing it.

Sorry, no. Lightning travels at 3,700 miles per second (http://www.komonews.com/weather/faq/4347976.html).

[Rogar Demonblud]

93,000/186,000=1/2. So yes, half the speed of light. Of course, it gets hinky when you add air resistance, which radically affects electrons but not photons.

[Varidan]

While Belkar may be sabotaging himself, remember Durkon's final request was not to kill his friends. So it all depends on how true to his word the HPoH is...

Besides, how much of a threat is Belkar to him, really?

Also, if V doesnt already have suspicions, she will after blocking several lightning strikes aimed at the Mechane. The others may not see then since they are busy arguing with Belkar or trying to get the ship running. I still expect Durkula to be around for quite awhile longer tho.

[multilis]

Sorry, no. Lightning travels at 3,700 miles per second (http://www.komonews.com/weather/faq/4347976.html).
there is difference between a bridge forming and the main energy flowing after the bridge is formed... when the bridge forms, much less energy is travelling, once it is solid bridge, it gets better and better at conducting electricity.

Thinking about it, V's method would not work in real life... by the time the lightning was visible there would be solid bridge, even if V had reflexes "at speed of light", having a now solid conductor of plasma on both sides of the wall for miles and only a matter of hundred feet to climb around barrier, compared to miles to string a new plasma line, the remaining (majority) electrical charge would follow the existing path like a miles long lightning rod and simply go shortest distance around the force wall.

[SimonMoon6]

Sadly, even Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) is restricted to max 15 HD creatures, and a Roc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm) has 18 hit dice.

And even if it wasn't so limited, there's the HD <= level cap, meaning that V would have to be 18th level... which he might be, but that would mean he could be throwing 9th level spells around, when the highest level spells I recall him using are Prismatic Spray and Forcecage (both of which are 7th level, so V is at least 13th level).

[SteveDJ]

When I first read this, I read "roc" as "rock" and had this brief vision of V using it to block the lightning, and then watch as it plummets to the ground. :smallbiggrin:

[ellindsey]

The important speed is not how fast current is flowing along the main discharge channel once the lightning has fully formed. That will be fast, although still not at the speed of light. The important speed is the speed at which the initial stepped leader that makes the channel for the main charge is forming. The stepped leader is slow enough that you can see it forming bit by bit on high-speed cameras, a mere speed of a few hundred miles per hour. If V blocks the stepped leader from reaching the ship, the main discharge won't hit it.

[Bulldog Psion]

We're assuming here that OotS lightning works just like ours. From the looks of it, it doesn't -- it's more like an energy weapon bolt that dissipates if blocked, rather than just flowing around the obstacle and continuing on its merry way to the ground.

[Doug Lampert]

Half the speed of light is incorrect number as far as I can tell. Real number is a complicated range starting from nearly speed of light.

Any number close to speed of light is effectively the same in short distance from human speed reflexes, takes fancy experiment tricks to tell a difference with normal human reflexes.

Lightning is, as others have pointed out, slow enough to see moving with a high speed camera, looking on the Internet I get variable speeds, one reference claims about 3,700 miles per second.

Wikipedia gives a range with an average of 4.4×10^5 m/s, which is only 273 miles per second.

I do see a reference on another site that claims "However, the speed is normally no more than half the speed of light, usually substantially less." and "Per the MEDICAL MYSTERIES LIGHTNING STRIKES video put out by the Discovery Channel (2000 Publication), it states that lightning travels at a rate of 60,000 miles a second."

So two out of three sources give 3-4 orders of magnitude slower than light, and one gives a noticeable fraction of the speed of light, but even it claims "usually substantially less" than half the speed of light.

Too fast to react, except in D&D land where a readied action is effectively instantaneous and goes off BEFORE the action that triggers it.

Edited to add: ellindsey is almost certainly correct above in the claim that the "nearly the speed of light" is the CURRENT FLOW speed within the ionized channel after the lightning has propagated, while the much much slower speeds given are the propagation of the strike. The slower speed is the relevant one, and is only a few hundred or thousand miles per second.

[Peelee]

Half the speed of light is incorrect number as far as I can tell. Real number is a complicated range starting from nearly speed of light.

Any number close to speed of light is effectively the same in short distance from human speed reflexes, takes fancy experiment tricks to tell a difference with normal human reflexes.
True. I'll concede the point.

The important speed is not how fast current is flowing along the main discharge channel once the lightning has fully formed. That will be fast, although still not at the speed of light. The important speed is the speed at which the initial stepped leader that makes the channel for the main charge is forming. The stepped leader is slow enough that you can see it forming bit by bit on high-speed cameras, a mere speed of a few hundred miles per hour. If V blocks the stepped leader from reaching the ship, the main discharge won't hit it.

That's what a quick and dirty Google about lightning gets me. You're right.

[Kish]

While Belkar may be sabotaging himself, remember Durkon's final request was not to kill his friends. So it all depends on how true to his word the HPoH is...
Huh? Durkon's final request was addressed to Malack. The High Priest of Hel wasn't there and manifestly doesn't care in the least what Durkon wants about anything.

[David Argall]

I like how V is taking great pains to protect the rest of the crew; she's had a lot of character development since two arcs ago. :smallsmile:

[Small note: Just noticed I said she instead of they; not sure what makes me think V is a lady elf, but yes.]
Now that is different from me. I have been thinking that the new art gives V a distinctly male appearance. I am not sure what it is, but somehow the new V clearly says "male" while the old was much more indefinite.

[137beth]

Huh? Durkon's final request was addressed to Malack. The High Priest of Hel wasn't there and manifestly doesn't care in the least what Durkon wants about anything.

High Priest of Hel also pretty clearly doesn't care what Malack thought either, so any requests Durkon made to Malack are worthless as far as HPoH is concerned.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Awww, go on V, be a sport, pretend to be Blackwing's familiar, just for a few minutes. :smallamused:

Presumably Blackwing's able to sense the forming lightning in a similar way to birds being able to find thermals.

[DaggerPen]

Welp, that answers that question. It was a good shot, Thor.

And I will be very sad if we don't get to see at least a background shot of electrified gargantuan roc Blackwing.

[Barak]

V. is usually a lot more logical and intelligent than this. The protection from lightning/Rocwing idea is a far better lightning shield than the instantaneous unanchored wall of force cast at just the right spot by "looking at it." (It would make for a funnier strip, too.)

Why would his/her second plan be forcecage?

People have said it before, but if someone came up with this plan in a game I was DM'ing, I'd be like, "um... no." Or rather, "you can try it - you'll fail, but you can try it."

[Trixie]

I don't know the specifics of how a forcewall is supposed to work in terms of physics, but I'm doubtful as to the effectiveness of that blocking strategy.

It would not work. At all. When lightning strikes somewhere, it's because there already exists a patch of ionized air between cloud and a target. Assuming V can shout 'wall of force' in 0.0001 seconds it takes for main patch to emerge, what we would see is either lighting punching straight through the wall, or, assuming it's infinitely resistant, another most likely result would be forced ionization of relatively short path between cut parts or lighting skipping to other, closest ionized path centred either on V or on the ship :smallcool:

What V should have done was to summon wall of iron positioned vertically between cloud and earth. Or summon big mass of metal in the cloud to short circuit it (any number of monsters could serve for that). Or simply use any sort of lightning spell to forcibly ionize more air between cloud and the ground to diver lightnings away from the ship. Or... :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Whatever plan anyone might invent for Vaarsuvius, it shouldn't include Wall of Iron, or any other Conjuration or Necromancy spell.

[foobar1969]

V. is usually a lot more logical and intelligent than this. The protection from lightning/Rocwing idea is a far better lightning shield than the instantaneous unanchored wall of force cast at just the right spot by "looking at it."
V knows that, but s/he has developed empathy for her trusted companion, and would rather attempt other options before ordering Blackwing to take a bullet.


People have said it before, but if someone came up with this plan in a game I was DM'ing, I'd be like, "um... no." Or rather, "you can try it - you'll fail, but you can try it."

http://dungeonsmaster.com/2010/01/eight-rules-that-will-make-you-a-better-dm/

[multilis]

Protection from lightning may not work for same reason that lightning rod didn't work... lightning can go around a big bird, object trying to block does not move that fast.

Thinking about it real life physics does not apply to OOTS... lightning is caused by magic and can dodge a lightning pole, the force cage is magic, Roy can hold a rope (that 2 others can't) when in real life physics his body isn't heavy enough to have traction even if he is strong enough.

Extra mass can be created or got rid of with magic, when real life e=mc2, probably much easier to make a thermo-nuclear bomb. For DnD to work in "real life" would probably require real life to really be something like a computer simulation and magic is hacking the simulation to allow things not allowed by regular rules..

OOTS is a fake world created by "gods" creating rules.

[Heksefatter]

I think V realizes that "Durkon" has changed so fundamentally that it would be inaccurate to still call him that, regardless of whether or not it's still technically Durkon in control. S/he did witness him uncharacteristically freak out about the staff.

You are probably right. I just couldn't help thinking.

[Trixie]

93,000/186,000=1/2. So yes, half the speed of light. Of course, it gets hinky when you add air resistance, which radically affects electrons but not photons.

Um, yes it does. Light slows a lot in different environments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index


Wikipedia gives a range with an average of 4.4×10^5 m/s, which is only 273 miles per second.

Too fast to react, except in D&D land where a readied action is effectively instantaneous and goes off BEFORE the action that triggers it.

I beg you pardon? :smallconfused: "Only" 273 miles per second is actually "only" 50x than escape velocity, more than the fastest rockets ever built. The things that could travel from USA to Europe in seconds.

Anyone possessing reflexes like that would be able to catch arrows from the air because they would be standing still for him/her. Seriously, they move only five orders of magnitude slower. Ask your DM what response you'd get to 'I ready action to catch his arrow as soon as he fires it' and it would be trivial next to lightning catching.

[Cavenskull]

there is difference between a bridge forming and the main energy flowing after the bridge is formed... when the bridge forms, much less energy is travelling, once it is solid bridge, it gets better and better at conducting electricity.

Thinking about it, V's method would not work in real life... by the time the lightning was visible there would be solid bridge, even if V had reflexes "at speed of light", having a now solid conductor of plasma on both sides of the wall for miles and only a matter of hundred feet to climb around barrier, compared to miles to string a new plasma line, the remaining (majority) electrical charge would follow the existing path like a miles long lightning rod and simply go shortest distance around the force wall.
You're wrong. I just tested this in real life, and I can confirm that it is impossible for lightning to maneuver around a force wall.

[Moebius]

I'm thinking the storm will escalate, V will have to polymorph Black wing resulting in a giant stone bird, and the title of the next panel will be "ROC me like a hurricane"

I'm expecting "V will, V will Roc you," myself.

[Zombimode]

It would not work. At all. When lightning strikes somewhere, it's because there already exists a patch of ionized air between cloud and a target. Assuming V can shout 'wall of force' in 0.0001 seconds it takes for main patch to emerge, what we would see is either lighting punching straight through the wall, or, assuming it's infinitely resistant, another most likely result would be forced ionization of relatively short path between cut parts or lighting skipping to other, closest ionized path centred either on V or on the ship :smallcool:

Really, guys. A Wall of Force stops a Lightning Bolt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm) or any other "line of electricity" type of spell or effect. No "flowing around" or some other fancy stuff, just stopping it. No lightning of any strength could punch through a Wall of Force. The strongest naturally occurring lightning strike deals 10W8 points of damage. It would break through a barrier if it would deal enough damage to break the barrier. Since a Wall of Force can not be broken or destroyed by damage, it is impossible for any lightning to break through it.

The "good reflexes" part is just how readied actions work in D&D.

[WindStruck]

I think there's other alternatives here:

1) Thor is involved, but is actually after Julio Scoundrel. Think about it... the guy JUST abandoned his own ship for "retirement". Why NOW, all of a sudden?

2) Maybe some other pirates or something are lurking about in that area with a lower level cleric of their own who controlled the weather into being dark and rainy, and those lightning bolts are actually from another caster? :smallbiggrin:

[DaggerPen]

[Long physics debate that would require me quoting half the thread]

You know, I get the impression that sometimes, the Giant kind of regrets having tied himself down to 3.5 rules, and wonders if there might be a bit more focus on the story rather than the rules if he hadn't.

This discussion is fairly conclusive proof that there wouldn't be, at all. And if you think 3.5 rules lawyers are bad, then man, wait until the physicists start getting on you. :smalltongue:

She says as a physics major who has gone into screaming rants about particularly egregious physics violations in fiction, but shh.

[ORione]

Guys, when has Vaarsuvius, or any wizard, let the laws of physics stop them?


Can V cast two spells after spotting the second lightning? Shouldn't he start casting at least the protection spell?

I'd guess that they'd cast both spells right after using Forcecage.


And even if it wasn't so limited, there's the HD <= level cap, meaning that V would have to be 18th level... which he might be, but that would mean he could be throwing 9th level spells around, when the highest level spells I recall him using are Prismatic Spray and Forcecage (both of which are 7th level, so V is at least 13th level).

Power Word (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Power_word_stun) Stun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html).

[Trixie]

Things I am pretty sure Thor knows:
1) Hel does not like me. (Where's the smallindifferent smiley?)
2) Hel has a new High Priest, her first cleric ever. :smallannoyed:
3) IT'S THE VAMPIRE OF ONE OF MY MOST POWERFUL PRIESTS. :smallfurious:

4) Last time gods tried to bicker it ended really badly for everyone involved so why I am risking all of reality for one dwarf, again? Especially when the cleric was just banished outcast and I can just go on drinking binge again? :smallcool:


Whatever plan anyone might invent for Vaarsuvius, it shouldn't include Wall of Iron, or any other Conjuration or Necromancy spell.

Oh, yes, because Greater Shadow Conjuration, Limited Wish, or a dozen other spells which replicate it don't exist, and most certainly not in core rulebook, am I right? :smallamused:


There's no rule saying Vaarsuvius would have to change Blackwing into an adult roc.

Besides, you know, rules stating it starts on 18 HD and advances to 19-54 HD monster? :smallconfused:

Can I summon really tiny non-adult Tarrasque as 1st level Wizard? No? Thought so.

[Ivrytwr]

I imagine Blackwing almost gleefully saying "Outrage it is, then!" As if welcoming an old friend.
I caught the "former Master Thundershield" wording. I am wondering if V shares the view of the undead the Red-Cloak described whilst cleaning his apartment?
Plus Belkar trying to use logic to prove his point ... and failing!
Thanks Giant!

[Grey Watcher]

I love creative uses for spells. Wall of Force as impromptu electrical shielding? Genius. (Which, given V's Int score, I suppose is only to be expected.)

[Trixie]

Really, guys. A Wall of Force stops a Lightning Bolt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm) or any other "line of electricity" type of spell or effect. No "flowing around" or some other fancy stuff, just stopping it. No lightning of any strength could punch through a Wall of Force. The strongest naturally occurring lightning strike deals 10W8 points of damage. It would break through a barrier if it would deal enough damage to break the barrier. Since a Wall of Force can not be broken or destroyed by damage, it is impossible for any lightning to break through it.

You're talking about 3rd level spell. Since real lightning have far greater power than what wizards can summon (unless you postulate they risk permanent blindness and deafness just from side effects alone each time they try to cast it) and 10d6 isn't enough to damage ships like Mechane either, it follows it's much stronger. 100d6 stronger.


The "good reflexes" part is just how readied actions work in D&D.

So, I can catch arrows and deflect swords if I simply just ready action now? :smallconfused:

It's trivial to do that if you can catch lightning, so can I just tell my DM "I prepare to deflect his blow aside harmlessly the moment he strikes"? Without rolling or anything? After all, I just prepared action, so it should work, no?

[Neosmith]

Gotta say that I love the new V design, especially the symbols on his/her cloak.

Also, a nitpick but - lightning strikes first, thunder follows after.

[DaggerPen]

Gotta say that I love the new V design, especially the symbols on his/her cloak.

Also, a nitpick but - lightning strikes first, thunder follows after.

At this distance, I'm not really sure there'd be a delay readily perceived by anyone on the ship.

[Sir_Leorik]

Really, guys. A Wall of Force stops a Lightning Bolt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm) or any other "line of electricity" type of spell or effect. No "flowing around" or some other fancy stuff, just stopping it. No lightning of any strength could punch through a Wall of Force. The strongest naturally occurring lightning strike deals 10W8 points of damage. It would break through a barrier if it would deal enough damage to break the barrier. Since a Wall of Force can not be broken or destroyed by damage, it is impossible for any lightning to break through it.

The "good reflexes" part is just how readied actions work in D&D.

We're still not sure if this is a natural storm, or if Thor has decided to attack the Mechane to destroy the HPoH. If it's the latter, Thor could probably do some hefty damage that V could not shield against.

[The Pilgrim]

"the Former Master Thundershield..."

Looks like V has read enough about Vampires, to know that the being in Durkon's corpse is no longer Durkon.

[Peelee]

You're talking about 3rd level spell. Since real lightning have far greater power than what wizards can summon (unless you postulate they risk permanent blindness and deafness just from side effects alone each time they try to cast it) and 10d6 isn't enough to damage ships like Mechane either, it follows it's much stronger. 100d6 stronger.



So, I can catch arrows and deflect swords if I simply just ready action now? :smallconfused:

It's trivial to do that if you can catch lightning, so can I just tell my DM "I prepare to deflect his blow aside harmlessly the moment he strikes"? Without rolling or anything? After all, I just prepared action, so it should work, no?

There's a difference between catching an arrow and casting a giant wall in front of you to block the arrow. V just needed to know a few seconds before the lightning struck. Blackwing was able to tell, and relayed that information. For your analogy, Blackwing saw the archer ready the arrow told V, and V put up the wall as the shot was fired.

Also, there's nothing stopping The Giant from coming in and saying, "the special lightning that can go around lightning rods also travels at a rate that can be stopped by a well-timed Wall of Force," or anything similar, other than his own disinclination to come in here and justify everything he does in the comic. This strip didn't ruin anything for me. Did it for you?

[JBiddles]

Vaarsuvius isn't "shielding against" Thor's lightning, she's taking advantage of a spell description. Wall of Force blocks line effects, end of story. It doesn't matter of Thor's kicking out 1000d10. As for how that works, perhaps Force effects block some effects by specifically absorbing them.

In terms of reaction time, it does seem unlikely that a Wizard could react like that. Perhaps someone with a focus on Initiative could. It's possible that she cast Nerveskitter or something off-panel. Another alternative is that she's effectively in combat with Thor, and prepared and action to cast Wall of Force as soon as he threw a bolt.

Although... If Thor can bend lightning past a conductor, why not around V's Wall?

[Sith_Happens]

Wait, how long has V had Polymorph for? S/he's been holding out!:smalltongue:

[ellindsey]

Although... If Thor can bend lightning past a conductor, why not around V's Wall?

Line of sight. The lightning rod wasn't blocking LOS to the engines, but the wall was. Thor just overrode the normal behavior of the lightning bolt, which would have been to strike the lightning rod instead, and aimed it at the engines instead.

[Hazuki]

So, I can catch arrows and deflect swords if I simply just ready action now? :smallconfused:

It's trivial to do that if you can catch lightning, so can I just tell my DM "I prepare to deflect his blow aside harmlessly the moment he strikes"? Without rolling or anything? After all, I just prepared action, so it should work, no?The readied action was "Cast Wall of Force upon seeing lightning", which is a perfectly valid condition (When I see lightning) and action (Casting Wall of Force). To make your prepared action valid, you could say something like "I ready an action to Sunder X's sword when they attack". If you roll high enough, and do enough damage, you could stop the attack from occurring by breaking the weapon. Or you could say "I ready a 5-foot-step to dodge when X attacks", and it would work.

The reason your prepared action wouldn't work is that it doesn't actually use any existing mechanics.

[A.A.King]

Although... If Thor can bend lightning past a conductor, why not around V's Wall?

Probably because the lighting didn't so much bend around the conductor as that it simply wasn't affected by it. These lighting bolts shouldn't so much be considered as real lighting, but more as throw weapons. Thor can aim the lighting and mortal technology that protects against normal lighting won't change the path chosen by the god. However, if you roughly know the path the lighting will take then you can stop it by putting a different target in the path.

[Phybender]

Best physics compatible way to discharge all clouds nearby:

9th panel of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html

[Toper]

I'm happy to accept that there's a difference in the behavior of magical vs. natural lightning -- we already know that the earlier bolt ignored a rod that was presumably effective in normal storms.


"the former Master Thundershield..."
That is an excellent catch! Unless that was an error by Rich, V has started to think of the vampire as a different entity from the old Durkon, no two ways about it.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I'm still slightly miffed that V isn't wearing Khussa/Mojari/Jutti shoes instead of generic brown shoes.

And, really, V, you couldn't have turned yourself into a ROC and made yourself immune to electricity? You couldn't have pretended to be Blackwing's familiar?

Great comic, as always.

[Douglas Limmer]

It takes cartoon physics to make this work.

Good thing this is a cartoon!

[Wonton]

Hm. Is there any possibility that was a Quickened Wall of Force? Seems like that would be the only way to get it out that quickly. I mean, lightning is literally fast as lightning. Of course, the famous Quickened Disintegrate from the dragon fight was actually cast as "Quickened Disintegrate", but it's a possibility. And if so, it would mean V now has access to 9th-level spell slots, which is certainly exciting.

[cybishop]

I read "the former Master Thundershield" as "the former Master Thundershield." "Master" isn't a general salutation, it's an honorific for a cleric of a certain rank, maybe also in a certain church. The party knows that Durkon, being evil, is no longer a cleric of Thor. They probably think he is a non-theistic cleric, which might have a different title, or no title at all. But they'd continue to think of him as "Master Thundershield" because (a) that's how they've known him for years, and (b) his current non-theistic status is probably a touchy subject.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Nice strip. I love the interaction between Vaarsuvius and Blackwing.

Belkar just gets more and more logical with each strip, doesn't he?

With regards to the lightning debate: I'll accept that Vaarsuvius was readying an action to cast Wall of Force in opposition to the lightning. Lightning obviously doesn't work in OOTS like it does in real life, since it is thrown around by a god.



I read "the former Master Thundershield" as "the former Master Thundershield." "Master" isn't a general salutation, it's an honorific for a cleric of a certain rank, maybe also in a certain church. The party knows that Durkon, being evil, is no longer a cleric of Thor. They probably think he is a non-theistic cleric, which might have a different title, or no title at all. But they'd continue to think of him as "Master Thundershield" because (a) that's how they've known him for years, and (b) his current non-theistic status is probably a touchy subject.
I'm pretty sure it was only Vaarsuvius who referred to him as Master Thundershield in the first place.

[RdMarquis]

Now why wasn't a lighting-proof roc the plan A? That sounds amazing, wizard familiar or no. Heck, I'm giddy and feeling anticipation. :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

"Master" isn't a general salutation, it's an honorific for a cleric of a certain rank, maybe also in a certain church.

Source?...

[Sir Grave]

This comic was awesome before. But now its staggeringly epic.:smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

Two thoughts:

1) While I'm enjoying the education in lightning and the related physics -- want it to continue -- I think ultimately stuff like this discourages the Giant. Some constructive criticism is useful. But at some point nitpicking can really make it hard to want to finish a task.

2) That said, I think the reason this works is that time in OOTSworld revolves around GAME mechanics, not real-world physics.

There was an earlier comic when Haley and team are having a regular yak-fest before a battle. When Roy objects, she responds, "relax, speaking is a free action."

So this is what I think happens: Think of this as a round in a combat.
Pre-round: V readies a cast of wall of force as an action.
Roll initiative
V passes and waits.
Thor, when his initiative comes up, throws a lightning bolt.

V, having a readied action to block it, throws the wall of force up.

Checking the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm)



Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.


There's nothing in there that says "unless the action which triggers your readied action takes place at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light."

As I understand it, the laws of OOTS universe operate on the following hierarchy:

1) The laws of drama.
2) The laws of gaming.
3) The laws of fantasy magic / real-world physics.

I suspect The Giant didn't think about the real-world implications of his actions, and the entire point of a game system is that he doesn't have to. So long as it works under the rules of gaming, it can work in OOTSworld. And, when the law of drama or comedy intervenes, sometimes even then.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[zimmerwald1915]

Wait, how long has V had Polymorph for? S/he's been holding out!:smalltongue:
Since strip 697 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html) at least.


Now why wasn't a lighting-proof roc the plan A? That sounds amazing, wizard familiar or no. Heck, I'm giddy and feeling anticipation. :smalltongue:
Because protection from electricity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) is far from complete protection. Assuming V is 16th level, that spell would provide only 192 points of protection, enough to soak about three lightning strikes (assuming they cap at 20d6 damage, which they might very well not). Plus V knows from personal experience (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html) that Thor's lightning strikes don't necessarily limit themselves to electricity damage.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


That is correct in a world in which lightning is a discharge of electrons going mindlessly along the line of electric potential as negative charge attracts positive charge. But in such a world, people (and gods) cannot direct it to specific chosen targets.

Therefore, lightning doesn't work that way in D&D.

We live in an awesome world where that is no longer true. Human beings can use lasers to create a plasma channel, thereby directing lightning strikes as we wish. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolaser)

We are the gods of this Earth now, by Jove!


*

[zimmerwald1915]

by Jove!
I see what you did there, and I like it.

[Jay R]

Eh, if I was DM there's no way I would have allowed that lightning blocking thing. That sort of thing just has "munchkin" written all over it, and as soon as players get the idea they can pull stunts like that they just go more munchkin the next time. It's lightning, it's literally at the speed of light. Even if it is a god throwing them.

You are discussing a physical phenomenon on our world that cannot be aimed and that no mind can control. Clearly, that is not what lightning aimed at a ship by Thor is.

A Lightning Bolt attack in D&D can be half-dodged by a Reflex save.

[Peelee]

*



We live in an awesome world where that is no longer true. Human beings can use lasers to create a plasma channel, thereby directing lightning strikes as we wish. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolaser)

We are the gods of this Earth now, by Jove!


*

We have been for a while, really. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3058#comic)


I see what you did there, and I like it.

....did you plan a reply to RdMarquis, then replace it with Boogastreehouse's text manually?

[SaintRidley]

The Wall of Force, as per the spell description, can be only vertical, and from the drawing it does not seem to be the case.

However, who cares. The feat V accomplished was awesome, and I can't wait to see the Roc.

Vertical is relative.

[Tylorious]

Where's the content?

[Killer Angel]

We cannot say that V. isn't capable of lateral thinking... :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

....did you plan a reply to RdMarquis, then replace it with Boogastreehouse's text manually?
I have no idea what you're talking about :smallwink:

I had planned a reply to both RdMarquis and Boogastreehouse, decided to put my reply to RdMarquis in an earlier post, and deleted the wrong opening quote tag by mistake.

[PsyBomb]

There is, of course, the possibility that V has hit level 18, in which case Shapechange would do the trick (along with Share Spell to make it affect Blackwing). Or Rule of Cool, that works too. Either way I look forward to seeing it happen.

Then again, the reason that one is Plan B is because we don't know how much damage those bolts deal. Even assuming they are 20d6 at a lowball, that still averages 140 damage. Not particularly sure that will be covered by any kind of Resistance spell that V will be able to throw, and Durkula isn't going to be helping with heals.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There is, of course, the possibility that V has hit level 18, in which case Shapechange would do the trick (along with Share Spell to make it affect Blackwing). Or Rule of Cool, that works too. Either way I look forward to seeing it happen.
I doubt that Vaarsuvius has done enough in the past few strips to suddenly reach 18. If we have any Rocs soon, it will probably be due to rule of cool, as you suggested.

[DaggerPen]

And, really, V, you couldn't have turned yourself into a ROC and made yourself immune to electricity? You couldn't have pretended to be Blackwing's familiar?

In fairness, given that V needed Blackwing's help with the lightning-spotting, it's possible that V didn't think V would be fast enough to react to Blackwing's warnings in Roc form, whereas roccing-out Blackwing could zoom around all on his own.

[WindStruck]

"the Former Master Thundershield..."

Looks like V has read enough about Vampires, to know that the being in Durkon's corpse is no longer Durkon.

That's probably a good point. In fact, he's probably caught all the slip ups his spirit mentioned as well. And thus deduced it was an act.

[Bitzer]

V's character development is really coming along. I'm pretty sure that before his revelation, he would simply let Durkula handle the storm without giving pause to think about how long the casting time is. In fact, given his expressed views on divine magic at the time, he probably wouldn't even know how long the casting time is. I also like the fact that putting Blackwing in harm's way is a back-up strategy, not his primary one despite the fact that it would be more effective. (I say more effective because he then has a mobile shield, with force wall and cage in reserve in case Blackwing can't block all of the bolts.) V simply seems to be more of a team player now.

I also really like how he's overcome his elven insensitivity to time. :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

That's probably a good point. In fact, he's probably caught all the slip ups his spirit mentioned as well. And thus deduced it was an act.

Word of Giant is that not enough vampires have been resurrected for that knowledge to be found just sitting in a book you'd find in a library.

[zyxophoj]

Huh. V actually remembered that raven familiars grant the alertness feet if they are close.

Forget about V perching on Rocwing's shoulder - If Blackwing does get polymorphed into a roc, he could carry the entire party. Who needs an airship?

[Amphiox]

What V ought to do is fly above the clouds and case lightning bolt at an angle away from the ship towards the ground and discharge the cloud that way. But if Forcewall DOES work that way, kudos on some VERY good reaction times there.

What that does is essentially create a lightning rod made of ionized air (instead of metal), and would work with any natural lightning. THIS lightning has already demonstrated that it tells the laws of physics pertaining to lightning rods to go sit in a corner and cry....


Wall of Force blocks line of effect, therefore it blocks lightning just fine. The only truly iffy part here is noticing lightning before it fires and interposing the barrier in time.

Unless V is somehow using some sensing mechanism that does not require light and which moves faster than light, that would be .... difficult.

If s/he is relying of vision, then s/he would need to position herself far enough away from the Mechane that the aggregate differences in the speed of light and the speed of lightning is such that the time interval between when the light from the lightning bolt reaches hir eyes and when the lightning bolt actually hits the Mechane is enough for the casting of the spell plus reaction time. Human reaction time is in the order of milliseconds (Elves perhaps are faster?).

But the rate limiting step is in fact the verbal component of the spell. Saying "Forcecage" takes more than many milliseconds. The reaction time component actually becomes insignificant to the total time.

If the laws of physics are fully obeyed, V needs to be miles and miles away from the Mechane....

And thus... MAGIC.


That is correct in a world in which lightning is a discharge of electrons going mindlessly along the line of electric potential as negative charge attracts positive charge. But in such a world, people (and gods) cannot direct it to specific chosen targets.

Therefore, lightning doesn't work that way in D&D.

A god can manipulate the electric potential of the intended target by moving around the electrons in that target, and direct lightning that way, with the lightning working just as it does in the real world.

How would a god do such a thing? He's god, d*ammit! Don't ask how!


Actually, V and Blackwing were flying in higher altitude than the ship. If that was a natural lightning, it should have hit them, instead of the ship. If V is clever enough she could figure out that somebody targeted the ship on purpose after former Master Thundershield started with appeasing his god.

I think that would only be the case if V had a more efficient electrical conduit to the ground than the ship. Otherwise the lightning would just go around hir. Also, if Thor can divert the lightning around a lightning rod, methinks Thor can direct it around an elf.


While Belkar may be sabotaging himself, remember Durkon's final request was not to kill his friends. So it all depends on how true to his word the HPoH is...

HPoH never made any such promise. It was Malack who made the promise....



We are the gods of this Earth now, by Jove!

But....

Didn't the Snarl kill that guy?

[Jay R]

A god can manipulate the electric potential of the intended target by moving around the electrons in that target, and direct lightning that way, with the lightning working just as it does in the real world!

Yup. And people will still get a Reflex save.

The rules of D&D state clearly that lightning can be dodged, and no description of what lightning is in our world will change that.

D&D lightning can be dodged.

[zimmerwald1915]

Huh. V actually remembered that raven familiars grant the alertness feet if they are close.

Forget about V perching on Rocwing's shoulder - If Blackwing does get polymorphed into a roc, he could carry the entire party. Who needs an airship?
The Mechane's crew, for one.

[Reddish Mage]

You know, I get the impression that sometimes, the Giant kind of regrets having tied himself down to 3.5 rules, and wonders if there might be a bit more focus on the story rather than the rules if he hadn't.

This discussion is fairly conclusive proof that there wouldn't be, at all. And if you think 3.5 rules lawyers are bad, then man, wait until the physicists start getting on you. :smalltongue:

She says as a physics major who has gone into screaming rants about particularly egregious physics violations in fiction, but shh.

I can recall some comments about the laws of physics not applying in stickverse, but for those who think that the need to explain the story within 3.5 rules is dragging things down, I say

"BLACKWING AS A ROC!"

[Angelalex242]

Well, the fact Wall of Force can block it means Thor is NOT using Divine Blast. He's using Call Lightning or Chain Lightning or some other Domain Power. Divine Blast would blast right through a Wall of Force. Nothing but Divine Shield stops a Divine Blast.

[halfeye]

Does anybody else think this might be a chance for Blackwing to get together with Bloodfeast?

[LasVegasLawyer]

In all the debate about the speed of lightning, and the use of force to stop lightning, one thing seems to have been overlooked:

This is the first time we've seen Blackwing up and about since the battle with Laurin. So where's the bauble?

[Finagle]

1) While I'm enjoying the education in lightning and the related physics -- want it to continue -- I think ultimately stuff like this discourages the Giant. Some constructive criticism is useful. But at some point nitpicking can really make it hard to want to finish a task.
It's precisely this sort of munchkinism that would have made me disallow blocking a lightning bolt by the PCs. "Oh, lightning only goes at 3000 miles/second, not 186,000 miles/second, therefore that gives my character plenty of time to react and block it!" :smallconfused: Look at all the obsessing over it! Just say "no" and move on.

[Reddish Mage]

It's precisely this sort of munchkinism that would have made me disallow blocking a lightning bolt by the PCs. "Oh, lightning only goes at 3000 miles/second, not 186,000 miles/second, therefore that gives my character plenty of time to react and block it!" :smallconfused: Look at all the obsessing over it! Just say "no" and move on.

Whose critizing I see a lot of people luxuriating in their high school physics!

[zimmerwald1915]

It's precisely this sort of munchkinism that would have made me disallow blocking a lightning bolt by the PCs. "Oh, lightning only goes at 3000 miles/second, not 186,000 miles/second, therefore that gives my character plenty of time to react and block it!" :smallconfused: Look at all the obsessing over it! Just say "no" and move on.
Or say "yes" and move on. It's not exactly a good trade on the PCs' part. Assuming by "lightning bolt" you mean lightning bolt, the PCs would have spent one of their wizard's readied actions, and a 5th-level spell (or 7th-level, if they opened with forcecage), to block a 3rd-level spell. The sequence of events looks a lot like a counterspell, and what could have been a potent battlefield control spell or lockdown spell is now just sitting uselessly somewhere random.

[Keltest]

It's precisely this sort of munchkinism that would have made me disallow blocking a lightning bolt by the PCs. "Oh, lightning only goes at 3000 miles/second, not 186,000 miles/second, therefore that gives my character plenty of time to react and block it!" :smallconfused: Look at all the obsessing over it! Just say "no" and move on.

Regardless of how the physics works, there is precedent in the rules for allowing players to be able to react to a lightning bolt before/during the strike.

[happycrow]

In all the debate about the speed of lightning, and the use of force to stop lightning, one thing seems to have been overlooked:

This is the first time we've seen Blackwing up and about since the battle with Laurin. So where's the bauble?

Oooooh. Good question.....

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Reddish Mage]

Well, the fact Wall of Force can block it means Thor is NOT using Divine Blast. He's using Call Lightning or Chain Lightning or some other Domain Power. Divine Blast would blast right through a Wall of Force. Nothing but Divine Shield stops a Divine Blast.

I'm pretty sure we aren't seeing a personal attack by Thor himself with his epic level powers, but Thor using his mastery over nature to direct perfectly ordinary lightning bolts (which are Thor's in the north by divine agreement). They are blocked by wall of force by Rich's fiat in violation of real world (but not stickverse physics). There story and D&D rules are satisfied and physics are left to cry in a corner and be discussed endlessly on the forums until someone brings up Nazis and the thread gets locked (don't worry another physics violation will occur in just a few strips!).

[Kamunami]

By the way, what ARE the specs for natural lightning strikes in D&D?

[Keltest]

By the way, what ARE the specs for natural lightning strikes in D&D?

Id imagine it would be similar to "call lightning" while outdoors in a storm.

[Doug Lampert]

In all the debate about the speed of lightning, and the use of force to stop lightning, one thing seems to have been overlooked:

This is the first time we've seen Blackwing up and about since the battle with Laurin. So where's the bauble?

Hammerspace, along with Haley's quiver, and all the other crap they have available that's never shown except when in use.

Heck, Blackwing can EXIST (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) in hammerspace. Clearly she can leave a bauble there.

[Doug Lampert]

Id imagine it would be similar to "call lightning" while outdoors in a storm.

If anything, too damaging. Most people are level 1 commoners with about 2 HP.

More people live through lightning strikes than are killed by them (probably substantially more, I can't find good statistics).

So I deduce that real world lightning does maybe 1d6 or so of damage.

Even if you think moderns are d8 experts rather than d4 commoners for some reason, anything more than 2d6 is still probably way too much.

[WindStruck]

I'm pretty sure we aren't seeing a personal attack by Thor himself with his epic level powers, but Thor using his mastery over nature to direct perfectly ordinary lightning bolts (which are Thor's in the north by divine agreement). They are blocked by wall of force by Rich's fiat in violation of real world (but not stickverse physics). There story and D&D rules are satisfied and physics are left to cry in a corner and be discussed endlessly on the forums until someone brings up <CENSORED> and the thread gets locked (don't worry another physics violation will occur in just a few strips!).

NOW you've done it! By bringing up that forbidden subject, this thread will be terminated and the community will never be able to argue about V's Gender, Belkar's impending death, or Thor's drinking habits ever again! Well done, sir! Well done...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

NOW you've done it! By bringing up that forbidden subject, this thread will be terminated and the community will never be able to argue about V's Gender, Belkar's impending death, or Thor's drinking habits ever again! Well done, sir! Well done...

Thor's drinking habits?

[zimmerwald1915]

Thor's drinking habits?
According to Sif, it's more like Thor's drinking problem. She'd like us to come around to Asgard next Wednesday to have a talk with him.

[Morty]

How is it relevant whether or not V's blocking of the lightning physically possible? One way or the other, V protects the airship with magic, but she has a limited supply - it's not as if she prepared for this, much as these discussions tend to assume a wizard can cast any spell at any time - which sets up the joke with the plan to transform and lightning-proof Blackwing. And maybe something else that we've yet to see.

[warmachine]

Well, there you go. High level spellcasters aren't gods but if you've angered a god, only they can save your arse.

[LuisDantas]

I don't have a problem with the wall or the forcecage attracting lightning.

If they are even partially solid and reasonably conductive of electricity, their conjuring should deflagrate the lightning and act as a reasonable impromptu lightning rod. They are big objects, after all, and it does not take much to create lightning inside clouds.

I have a slightly harder time believing that Vaarsuvius and Blackwing are safe from attracting lightning with their own bodies, though. But I suppose birds may have a feeling for electricity building (feathers reacting or something) that V is relying upon.

[Barak]

I agree that the story logistics take precedent over any real-world physics, however...

There are many other ways that V could block the lightning - (or we could just say that lightning isn't going to cause enough damage to destroy the ship before Durkon controls it) - essentially, this use of wall of force opens a big can of worms for a lot of us, and it's unnecessary to moving the story forward. You could cut this page and nothing would change in the storyline, right?

So in that case I'd prefer it to be really funny. And the joke about Blackwing would probably be funnier if we saw it (which we probably won't because we'll move on to something different in the next strip) rather than were just told about it.

So - all in all - V. using wall of force in this way was disappointing to me.

[Morty]

I agree that the story logistics take precedent over any real-world physics, however...

There are many other ways that V could block the lightning - (or we could just say that lightning isn't going to cause enough damage to destroy the ship before Durkon controls it) - essentially, this use of wall of force opens a big can of worms for a lot of us, and it's unnecessary to moving the story forward. You could cut this page and nothing would change in the storyline, right?

So in that case I'd prefer it to be really funny. And the joke about Blackwing would probably be funnier if we saw it (which we probably won't because we'll move on to something different in the next strip) rather than were just told about it.

So - all in all - V. using wall of force in this way was disappointing to me.

And yet, it all ends the same way - V uses magic to block the lightning, and then speculates about using Blackwing to do it once she runs out of spells. So what would really change?

[VaarsuviusFan#1]

Nice! I didn't think Thor would give up that easily -- he's probably aiming for Durkula directly at this point. I also like the comic title.

Sadly, even Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) is restricted to max 15 HD creatures, and a Roc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm) has 18 hit dice.

V said he would be polymorphing him. He did not say he would be using the spell Polymorph to polymorph Blackwing. 9th Level spell "Shapechange" http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm, which is a polymorph effect, is the only possible spell, bar wish magic, that could change Blackwing into a Roc as it requires the caster to have 18 HD, and it is only possible on Blackwing because while the target of the spell is self, as V's familiar Blackwing also counts as V for all purposes of spells with the target "self". This not only confirms that V can cast a few 9th level spells now, it also confirms he is at least 18th level.:smallbiggrin:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I agree that the story logistics take precedent over any real-world physics, however...

There are many other ways that V could block the lightning - (or we could just say that lightning isn't going to cause enough damage to destroy the ship before Durkon controls it) - essentially, this use of wall of force opens a big can of worms for a lot of us, and it's unnecessary to moving the story forward. You could cut this page and nothing would change in the storyline, right?

So in that case I'd prefer it to be really funny. And the joke about Blackwing would probably be funnier if we saw it (which we probably won't because we'll move on to something different in the next strip) rather than were just told about it.

So - all in all - V. using wall of force in this way was disappointing to me.

It's not really about the story logistics. It's about how lightning (among other things) works differently in OOTS world and not like how it is on earth, which is why Vaarsuvius can block it like they did. So, in this case cartoon physics is taking precedent over real-life physics, which is normal for any fantasy story. In addition, there aren't really that many other ways I can think of that Vaarsuvius could use to block it, and it makes sense that precautions are being taken against the lightning.

V said he would be polymorphing him. He did not say he would be using the spell Polymorph to polymorph Blackwing. 9th Level spell "Shapechange" http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm, which is a polymorph effect, is the only possible spell, bar wish magic, that could change Blackwing into a Roc as it requires the caster to have 18 HD, and it is only possible on Blackwing because while the target of the spell is self, as V's familiar Blackwing also counts as V for all purposes of spells with the target "self". This not only confirms that V can cast a few 9th level spells now, it also confirms he is at least 18th level.:smallbiggrin:

It is almost impossible for Vaarsuvius to be at 18th level, as he was 16th level at the end of the previous arc.

[Peelee]

I agree that the story logistics take precedent over any real-world physics, however...

There are many other ways that V could block the lightning - (or we could just say that lightning isn't going to cause enough damage to destroy the ship before Durkon controls it) - essentially, this use of wall of force opens a big can of worms for a lot of us, and it's unnecessary to moving the story forward. You could cut this page and nothing would change in the storyline, right?

So in that case I'd prefer it to be really funny. And the joke about Blackwing would probably be funnier if we saw it (which we probably won't because we'll move on to something different in the next strip) rather than were just told about it.

So - all in all - V. using wall of force in this way was disappointing to me.

What are the other ways, and what is this can of worms that has been opened? I'm intrigued.

[Angelalex242]

Just sayin', Thor's Divine Blast Salient Divine Ability, if that's what he was using, would still look like a lightning bolt. (and it'd do something like 18d12 damage...)

But then, that can't be blocked by wall of force, so clearly it wasn't that.

[VaarsuviusFan#1]

It's not really about the story logistics. It's about how lightning (among other things) works differently in OOTS world and not like how it is on earth, which is why Vaarsuvius can block it like they did. So, in this case cartoon physics is taking precedent over real-life physics, which is normal for any fantasy story. In addition, there aren't really that many other ways I can think of that Vaarsuvius could use to block it, and it makes sense that precautions are being taken against the lightning.


It is almost impossible for Vaarsuvius to be at 18th level, as he was 16th level at the end of the previous arc.

I guess it's more of the Giant's "rule of cool" shenanigans again. But we'll see next comic I suppose.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Just sayin', Thor's Divine Blast Salient Divine Ability, if that's what he was using, would still look like a lightning bolt. (and it'd do something like 18d12 damage...)

But then, that can't be blocked by wall of force, so clearly it wasn't that.

Personally, I think it was a normal lightning bolt, at least, as normal as lightning bolt is in OOTS world.

[Kish]

Divine Blast Salient Divine Ability?

Is there the most remote scrap of a hint anywhere in the entire comic that Rich has ever been using the book that would make it make sense to put any two of those words together like that?

[Bulldog Psion]

Personally, I don't think that V's "former Master Thundershield" means "formerly Durkon, now not."

I think it's a rather bookish way of saying "Durkon, formerly alive, now dead (or undead)."

IMO, the first interpretation is reading too much into the elf's statement.

[monkeyslinger]

I read "the former Master Thundershield" as "the former Master Thundershield." "Master" isn't a general salutation, it's an honorific for a cleric of a certain rank, maybe also in a certain church. The party knows that Durkon, being evil, is no longer a cleric of Thor. They probably think he is a non-theistic cleric, which might have a different title, or no title at all. But they'd continue to think of him as "Master Thundershield" because (a) that's how they've known him for years, and (b) his current non-theistic status is probably a touchy subject.

"Master" is an archaic way of addressing an unmarried man, just like how we have "Miss" and "Mrs." for unmarried and married women, respectively.

[Jay R]

It's precisely this sort of munchkinism that would have made me disallow blocking a lightning bolt by the PCs. "Oh, lightning only goes at 3000 miles/second, not 186,000 miles/second, therefore that gives my character plenty of time to react and block it!" :smallconfused: Look at all the obsessing over it! Just say "no" and move on.

Whether you say 3,000 mps or 186,000 mps, it's still not true.

Nothing you have said about lightning fits something that:
a. can be mentally called,
b. can be aimed, and
c. can be dodged using dexterity.

Any real-world fact about lightning that does not fit those three facts is simply wrong in D&D.

[RandomTiger]

Wowww, that's a lot of lightning discussion.

I don't have any idea what will happen, but what I want to happen is for Vaarsuvius to figure out something's gone kooky in Durkula's head and then try to figure out what to do about it. V has the intelligence score for it, and enough wisdom to wait for proof before trying to declare it to the party. Or at least a time when Durkula has stopped helping them. In the middle of fixing a drastic lightning problem is not the right time to try to unmask him.

Preferably V would open with something like "Sir Greenhilt, despite the halfling's tendency to jump to completely unconscionable heights in his attempts to massacre the innocent, I do believe that Master Thundershield has been acting bizarrely lately, and attempting to hide it. He cannot be trusted completely, as before." Belkar is hilarious, but I'm also enjoying watching him try to doggy-paddle his way through gravel, and I like watching their rivalry.

[Daileon]

I'm thinking the storm will escalate, V will have to polymorph Black wing resulting in a giant stone bird, and the title of the next panel will be "ROC me like a hurricane"

If we had an upvote system, I'm pretty sure you'd be the winner of this thread.

[gmoyes]

'Course if somehow Blackwing the Lightningroc plan doesn't work our as planned, it could be a case of "Rocs Fall, Everybody Dies".

[Stella]

We're assuming here that OotS lightning works just like ours. From the looks of it, it doesn't -- it's more like an energy weapon bolt that dissipates if blocked, rather than just flowing around the obstacle and continuing on its merry way to the ground.No, it's more like OotS lightning works just like plot. We've got 16 minutes to kill, and why not fill it with some witty repartee between V and Blackwing? Everyone else who had something to say or who was going to do something has already spent 4 minutes doing so, and watching Lurky mutter "Control Weather" for 3 more strips wasn't going to be terribly entertaining.


Anyone possessing reflexes like that would be able to catch arrows from the air because they would be standing still for him/her.Which in D&D land is any 1st level Human Fighter character with an above average Dexterity and the right Feats. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#snatchArrows)

Ask your DM what response you'd get to 'I ready action to catch his arrow as soon as he fires it' and it would be trivial next to lightning catching.Assuming that I have the Snatch Arrow Feat, I would expect the response to be something along the lines of "Do you have a hand free? Yes? You haven't caught an arrow yet this round? No? Ok, but why waste your action readying when you don't have to and it won't help you in any way? You catch the arrow." Because that's exactly how that works.


Plus Belkar trying to use logic to prove his point ... and failing!Except that appeals to logic don't usually include statements like "Yeah, but you never listen to me! So don't listen to me now! I mean then! Damn it!"


So, I can catch arrows and deflect swords if I simply just ready action now? :smallconfused:

It's trivial to do that if you can catch lightning, so can I just tell my DM "I prepare to deflect his blow aside harmlessly the moment he strikes"? Without rolling or anything? After all, I just prepared action, so it should work, no?You can ready a a standard action, a move action, or a free action. What you can do with the action you readied is entirely dependent on your normal capabilities with the type of action you decided to ready. It does not grant you any abilities which you did not already have.


Ready (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready)

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.There is a lot more, but what I've quoted covers the situation. V readied a Standard Action with the condition "Lightning heads for the Mechanae." When lightning heads for the Mechanae V can then use his readied Standard Action to cast a spell which has a casting time of Standard Action, such as Wall of Force.

It is both a powerful ability and a weak ability. It does allow "reaction" type actions, but the mechanic is quite reasonable. You basically spend your action in order to potentially take the action later. So in a situation where taking an action is a poor choice, such as waiting in ambush but the target hasn't come around the corner yet, taking a ready action is a good choice over simply not taking any action at all. But if the specific condition you have readied for does not happen before your next turn, you lose the action.

[Acacia OnnaStik]

Except that appeals to logic don't usually include statements like "Yeah, but you never listen to me! So don't listen to me now! I mean then! Damn it!"

Hence the failing. :tongue:

[Bongos]

This scene is taking too long, Rich is up to something...

[Darth Paul]

Once again Belkar realizes that logical consistency ends where Roy's friendship with Durkon begins. Makes you feel sorry for the little Chaotic Evil bugger, doesn't it?

[Bulldog Psion]

Once again Belkar realizes that logical consistency ends where Roy's friendship with Durkon begins. Makes you feel sorry for the little Chaotic Evil bugger, doesn't it?

Actually, curiously, it does.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Once again Belkar realizes that logical consistency ends where Roy's friendship with Durkon begins. Makes you feel sorry for the little Chaotic Evil bugger, doesn't it?

Of course, Belkar isn't really doing well with regards to logic either.

[Amphiox]

Yup. And people will still get a Reflex save.

The rules of D&D state clearly that lightning can be dodged, and no description of what lightning is in our world will change that.

D&D lightning can be dodged.

All that requires is moving quickly enough so that the action that targets you to *create the electric potential on your bodyin the first place* misses you and strikes some other object near where you are, like the ground you were just standing on.

What that means is that the *thing* that creates the electrical potential that later attracts the electricity of the lightning bolt to you is itself acting like a directed energy/beam weapon.


Whether you say 3,000 mps or 186,000 mps, it's still not true.

Nothing you have said about lightning fits something that:
a. can be mentally called,
b. can be aimed, and
c. can be dodged using dexterity.

Any real-world fact about lightning that does not fit those three facts is simply wrong in D&D.

There are in fact multiple ways in which all those three facts can be made to fit completely with all the real-world facts about lightning, simply by layering on top of them an additional set of rules that that manipulates the real-world facts in a manner that enables the observed effect. This in fact can be done in both fantasy (with magic) and science fiction (with advanced technology).

Quite frankly, my experience with fantasy literature is that virtually any time someone declares that a real-world fact about how something works MUST be wrong in the fantasy world because of this or that turns out on closer inspection to merely be the result of a lack of imagination on exactly how the rules of the fantasy world can be made to interact with the real-world facts to make the phenomenon occur.

After all, in our own history, there are a HUGE number of things that we have managed to achieve with clever application of technology that on first glance SEEM to be impossible based on the facts of reality as we understand them, and which one might be tempted to declare that "since this thing has happened, it must surely mean that what we thought were the facts is wrong" when it fact that was not the case at all. The facts were not wrong. It is merely that one has underestimated the extent to which clever manipulation of those facts can produce the effects one aims for.

[Amphiox]

Here's another way that lightning can be dodged without changing or removing any real-world facts about lightning, but only adding "miracle exceptions/overrides" with magic.

Refer to this: http://what-if.xkcd.com/16/

Assume that the magic that governs the targeting of the lightning is not so precise that it can bullseye you, specifically, for the hit, but that it merely manipulates the ionized path of the lightning bolt through the air to bring the "lightning shadow" into overlap with a three-dimensional sphere around your location such as you are the tallest object within it. At that point the lightning will strike you, based on normal physics.

But, if you MOVE in the window of time after that "lightning shadow" is decided and fixed by the spell but before the time the tip of the traveling lightning bolt reaches that 3D sphere of the "lightning shadow" (or even before it starts, if you can anticipate the casting in some way, such as observing the caster's movements, or knowing the casting time of the spell) just enough that you are no longer IN the "lightning shadow" or are no longer the tallest object in the "lightning shadow", then the lightning will not strike you. It will ground directly to the ground near where you used to be standing, or strike that other tall object instead.

This would require reaction times on the order of nanoseconds, which is superhuman. But relative to having enough constitution to survive being gored by a triceratops, or enough strength to hold a mooring line in a storm immobile with one hand, it is within the same order of superhuman with respect to dexterity as it is to those other stats.

[QuidEst]

Yes. This is what being a wizard means. From the spells prepared for the day, how do you MacGyver a solution to the problem at hand?

[Red XIV]

Real life physics:

Problem 1 is lightning being a charge would normally go around any barrier it could not go through. (Still could work in making lightning miss the ship)
Problem 2 is having fast enough reflexes to stop something moving at nearly the speed of light.
Problem 3 is technically supposed to only allow vertical wall, rather than horizontal.

It takes cartoon physics to make this work.


Update: Lightning (air plasma bridge?) *might* travel as slow as 3,700 miles per second in air, still absurdly extreme.

It is a little complicated as first you have the bridge of plasma forming which will be comparatively low energy, then as soon as connection is made, more and more energy would flow which would widen the bridge between both ends... sort of like a river of water flowing through a sand dam.

Cut off the lightning when the bridge is forming, and the bridge finds a different route, the main energy pushing has not been released yet. Sort of like plugging a tiny hole in a sand dam, water will find another way, once a different hole forms it rapidly grows.

Again. Magic. V hirself has described it before as telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. Even if it shouldn't work according to real-life physics, it still works because magic.

[Pronounceable]

Why is Blackwing so awesome? He was just a one panel joke about silly player mentalities, how do you reach from that to this?

[Lombard]

That V/Blackwing dynamic. So good.

[Zombimode]

You're talking about 3rd level spell. Since real lightning have far greater power than what wizards can summon (unless you postulate they risk permanent blindness and deafness just from side effects alone each time they try to cast it) and 10d6 isn't enough to damage ships like Mechane either, it follows it's much stronger. 100d6 stronger.


By the way, what ARE the specs for natural lightning strikes in D&D?

Well...

Thunderstorm

In addition to wind and precipitation (usually rain, but sometimes also hail), thunderstorms are accompanied by lightning that can pose a hazard to characters without proper shelter (especially those in metal armor). As a rule of thumb, assume one bolt per minute for a 1-hour period at the center of the storm. Each bolt causes electricity damage equal to 1d10 eight-sided dice. One in ten thunderstorms is accompanied by a tornado (see below).

Emphasis mine. So, like I have said in my previous posting, the strongest natural lightning strike deals 10d8 damage. Which is less what magic can do if someone tries hard enough.

[Porthos]

So let me get this straight. Literally, and I mean literally, jumping over a lightning bolt is A-OK (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) but putting up a Wall of Force to stop it isn't? :smallconfused:

Sometimes I wonder if people remember this comic takes place in a world governed by D&D rules. :smalltongue:

[Nenec]

Now we have to see Blacking Roc!! Even if he doesn't get V to act as familiar!

I can't believe there's such a long and heavy discussion going on the physics of lighning and on the effects of spells blocking it. Rich always said he mostly follows the rules of storytelling, rather than real life or D&D true ones. Same for the polymorphing. Rule of cool wins over everything. I thought Elan had taught that enough!!

[Emperordaniel]

I can't believe there's such a long and heavy discussion going on the physics of lighning and on the effects of spells blocking it. Rich always said he mostly follows the rules of storytelling, rather than real life or D&D true ones. Same for the polymorphing. Rule of cool wins over everything. I thought Elan had taught that enough!!

No matter what happens in the comic, the forum will find a way to debate it for days on end.

[Nenec]

No matter what happens in the comic, the forum will find a way to debate it for days on end.
So true!!!

[Dalek Kommander]

No matter what happens in the comic, the forum will find a way to debate it for days on end.

I disagree, and will CONTINUE to disagree for at least ten pages of utterly futile discussion! Have at you!

[Adeptus]

Oooh, a shiny new comic. Liking the new V.

[Doug Lampert]

Again. Magic. V hirself has described it before as telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up. Even if it shouldn't work according to real-life physics, it still works because magic.
It also unquestionably works according to the rules of 3.5 D&D land. Which are explicitly, clearly, and repeatedly explained to be the laws of physics in the comic.

You can ready a standard action. The standard action is an interrupt and goes off PRIOR to the trigger. That's how D&D 3.x works.

You can use 10,560 commoners in a line to move an object 10 miles prior to the first guy finishing picking it up by having each snatch it out of the next guy's hands as he grabs it with a readied action. Then the last one lets it go while it's moving arbitrarily quickly, and it falls straight down and lands at his feet, because that's what happens when you grab something and then let it go which is all he has done.

You can ready an action to interrupt an attack, THAT"S WHAT THE READY ACTION IS THERE FOR! That's how it's SUPPOSED to work! Being able to do things like block lightning with a wall of force is exactly why ready is in the rules.

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

I'm thinking the storm will escalate, V will have to polymorph Black wing resulting in a giant stone bird, and the title of the next panel will be "ROC me like a hurricane"

And Blackwing yelling "Here I am" as he takes a lightning bolt

[Amphiox]

You can use 10,560 commoners in a line to move an object 10 miles prior to the first guy finishing picking it up by having each snatch it out of the next guy's hands as he grabs it with a readied action. Then the last one lets it go while it's moving arbitrarily quickly, and it falls straight down and lands at his feet, because that's what happens when you grab something and then let it go which is all he has done.

The REAL question is whether or not that object experiences relativistic effects in transit. So if it was a clock that was moved, what time does it read at the end?

(And of course, the clock has only one hand, because time in D&D is measured in turns, rather than seconds....)

[Doug Lampert]

The REAL question is whether or not that object experiences relativistic effects in transit. So if it was a clock that was moved, what time does it read at the end?

(And of course, the clock has only one hand, because time in D&D is measured in turns, rather than seconds....)

Obviously the clock moves backward, because each commoner is grabbing the object PRIOR to the guy he's taking it from.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No matter what happens in the comic, the forum will find a way to debate it for days on end.

No, we won't! :smallfurious:

[Emperordaniel]

No, we won't! :smallfurious:

Yes we will, and you can't prove otherwise[citation needed]! :smallfurious:

[Gorm_the_DBA]

So, do we get to consider this Chekov's Crow...or Roc...at least?

I mean, come on...you don't tease like that without paying off at some point...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yes we will, and you can't prove otherwise[citation needed]! :smallfurious:

No we wouldn't! :smallfurious:

...Um, wait. Darn!

[Grey Watcher]

Yes. This is what being a wizard means. From the spells prepared for the day, how do you MacGyver a solution to the problem at hand?

I'd say it's what being an adventurer means. Whether it's your spells prepared, class abilities, skills, or magic (or even mundane) items on hand, the whole point is to creatively apply what you've got to the problem at hand.

[goodpeople25]

I'd say it's what being an adventurer means. Whether it's your spells prepared, class abilities, skills, or magic (or even mundane) items on hand, the whole point is to creatively apply what you've got to the problem at hand.

I thought being an adventurer meant wandering around, killing some sentient creatures cause they have green skin and fangs and the adventurer doesn't and then taking their stuff.

What?

[zimmerwald1915]

I thought being an adventurer meant wandering around, killing some sentient creatures cause they have green skin and fangs and the adventurer doesn't and then taking their stuff.

What?
That's not fair, sometimes the adventurer has green skin and fangs and kills some sentient creatures with slightly different green skin and fangs :smallwink:

[Jay R]

The REAL question is whether or not that object experiences relativistic effects in transit. So if it was a clock that was moved, what time does it read at the end?

The same as any other clock, of course.

If you are mindlessly applying rules as written in defiance of common sense, then you must mindlessly apply rules as written in defiance of common sense. There are no rules for relativistic time dilation, so it doesn't exist.

[I once read about some players trying this with a spear, hoping to demolish a castle with a spear moving at near light speed. If one of my players tried it, I'd be tempted to let it work, and the spear would travel ten miles in six seconds, at which point it would do 1d6 damage. If you insist on RAW, you get RAW.]

[goodpeople25]

That's not fair, sometimes the adventurer has green skin and fangs and kills some sentient creatures with slightly different green skin and fangs :smallwink:

that's true

also some times the adventurer just kills the sentient creature regardless of fangs i mean how else is the adventurer going to get their stuff :smallbiggrin:

[ManuelSacha]

That Roc plan sounded like a Chekhov's Gun, if I've ever seen one.

[Mr_Scruffy_Kilz]

High Priest of Hel also pretty clearly doesn't care what Malack thought either, so any requests Durkon made to Malack are worthless as far as HPoH is concerned.

Yes, but it was a Blood Oath, and since Durkula is of Malack's Blood, if he breaks it, it will... well... it will mean Durkula is forfeit, he ceases to exist, cause breaking a blood oath made by a sire is way important... just ask Roy.


Yes we will, and you can't prove otherwise[citation needed]! :smallfurious:

Citation Granted, cause Jaxzan will argue with me, and denounce everything I say. It is his way. If I say the sky is blue, he will say, no the sky is whatever color the DM decides it is, and their are clear rules in D&D to define the color of the sky. If I show within those rules the sky is blue he will then argue that this isn't D&D and there is no DM. If he can argue, he will argue, until he thinks he's lost then shout, "You never responded to my comment about the clear rules in D&D, this is not worth talking about, you're wrong because I refuse to accept the option of you being right"

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, but it was a Blood Oath
Whatever gave you that impression?

[DaggerPen]

Yes, but it was a Blood Oath, and since Durkula is of Malack's Blood, if he breaks it, it will... well... it will mean Durkula is forfeit, he ceases to exist, cause breaking a blood oath made by a sire is way important... just ask Roy.

The only Blood Oath we have seen in this comic involved a "tattoo" parlor, a knife and a very explicit "this is a Blood Oath" warning. This was not a Blood Oath.

[Keltest]

Yes, but it was a Blood Oath, and since Durkula is of Malack's Blood, if he breaks it, it will... well... it will mean Durkula is forfeit, he ceases to exist, cause breaking a blood oath made by a sire is way important... just ask Roy. Youre confusing a sire, as in biological father, with sire as in the one who turned you into a vampire. They are distinctly different things. Furthermore, there was no Blood Oath. There was blood, and Malack made a promise (kinda) but there was no magical ritual compelling him to hold to his oath.

And even if there was, Eugene never saw any effects on him until after he died. As an outsider, Lurky/Malack would be unable to enter any sort of afterlife anyway.

And furthermore (again) Malack died having completed this hypothetical oath, so any descendants would not be bound by it.


Citation Granted, cause Jaxzan will argue with me, and denounce everything I say. It is his way. If I say the sky is blue, he will say, no the sky is whatever color the DM decides it is, and their are clear rules in D&D to define the color of the sky. If I show within those rules the sky is blue he will then argue that this isn't D&D and there is no DM. If he can argue, he will argue, until he thinks he's lost then shout, "You never responded to my comment about the clear rules in D&D, this is not worth talking about, you're wrong because I refuse to accept the option of you being right"

You spend like 5 pages dodging questions asking for sources on rules you claimed existed and ignoring the word of Giant, which trumps anything and everything that isn't also word of Giant. I don't see how that's in any way arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Citation Granted, cause Jaxzan will argue with me, and denounce everything I say. It is his way. If I say the sky is blue, he will say, no the sky is whatever color the DM decides it is, and their are clear rules in D&D to define the color of the sky. If I show within those rules the sky is blue he will then argue that this isn't D&D and there is no DM. If he can argue, he will argue, until he thinks he's lost then shout, "You never responded to my comment about the clear rules in D&D, this is not worth talking about, you're wrong because I refuse to accept the option of you being right"

You brought up the D&D rules more times than I did. I don't believe I ever used them at all, or the term DM in our discussion. If you fail to answer my arguments and go on to make utterly inane analogies, of course I'm going to stop having a discussion with you.

[pearl jam]

It's precisely this sort of munchkinism that would have made me disallow blocking a lightning bolt by the PCs. "Oh, lightning only goes at 3000 miles/second, not 186,000 miles/second, therefore that gives my character plenty of time to react and block it!" :smallconfused: Look at all the obsessing over it! Just say "no" and move on.

You're too focused on comparing this to a table session.

It's a story and heroes in stories are sometimes able to pull off impossible feats, such as reacting in time to block lightning.

The fact that the same action might ruin a game is not really relevant.






EDIT:

Also, indignant rage it is, then! :smallbiggrin:

[Trubbol]

Didn't V mention having like, knowledge of undead spirits or something earlier on, while discussing Roy's dad With Roy?

[BriarHobbit]

V will need something clever, as opposed to funny, to stop Thor's wrath. This is the time for Banjo to have a god-to-god talk with the Thunderer.

[LuisDantas]

Didn't V mention having like, knowledge of undead spirits or something earlier on, while discussing Roy's dad With Roy?

I don't specifically remember that. But if it is any help, #944 leaves little doubt that Roy is now fully aware of the Soul Splice.

Granted, the actual admission happens off-panel, but Vaarsuvius has clearly admitted to casting Familicide. The first panel also makes it clear that Roy is even aware of the fiends and of the specific time windows left to deal with.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html

So it is at least reasonable to assume that V went fair and square with Roy. By this point he has little reason or motivation to hide anything of significance.

[DaggerPen]

I don't specifically remember that. But if it is any help, #944 leaves little doubt that Roy is now fully aware of the Soul Splice.

Granted, the actual admission happens off-panel, but Vaarsuvius has clearly admitted to casting Familicide. The first panel also makes it clear that Roy is even aware of the fiends and of the specific time windows left to deal with.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html

So it is at least reasonable to assume that V went fair and square with Roy. By this point he has little reason or motivation to hide anything of significance.

I think BriarHobbit was referring to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html).

:vaarsuvius:: My knowledge of the denizens of the underworld is unmatched.

But even ignoring early installment weirdness, I doubt V is that familiar with how vampirism works - Giant's words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled/page8&p=17327934#post17327934) seem to indicate that the knowledge is very obscure:


Likewise, any assumptions that characters in the comic know or understand the details of how this process occurs on a detailed internal level should be thrown out the window. They don't. Being a vampire is super-rare; being returned to life after being a vampire so you can share the logistics of how it worked from your point of view in such a way that it entered a general body of knowledge that people would have learned about in the course of their education is simply not something that has ever occurred.

[Snurk]

Great strip O tall one....

and the forum made my day again with the lightening discussions :D

[Jaxzan Proditor]

V will need something clever, as opposed to funny, to stop Thor's wrath. This is the time for Banjo to have a god-to-god talk with the Thunderer.

Wait, so that wouldn't be funny, but stopping the lightning with a Wall of Force is? :smallconfused:

[strijder20]

Wait, so that wouldn't be funny, but stopping the lightning with a Wall of Force is? :smallconfused:

I think that sentence had a little bit of irony in it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that sentence had a little bit of irony in it.

Sometimes, especially on these forums, I have difficulty telling whether or not someone is being serious. That's why I asked them. I forgot to prepare Detect Sarcasm this morning.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's okay, it's DC40 to use it on-line anyway.

[JessmanCA]

Is it me, or does less happen per comic since the art change? Like we're lucky to get 1 spell per comic now. Lots of fruitless conversation (is he Durkon? isn't he?) And this last spell is taking multiple comics to cast. Forgive me but I don't see the point in making these particular ten minutes last multiple comics (weeks). There's not that much action going on aside from a lightning bolt or two.

[Peelee]

Sometimes, especially on these forums, I have difficulty telling whether or not someone is being serious. That's why I asked them. I forgot to prepare Detect Sarcasm this morning.

That's the superiority of the sorcerer; I can just spam Detect Sarcasm until I'm out.


Is it me, or does less happen per comic since the art change? Like we're lucky to get 1 spell per comic now. Lots of fruitless conversation (is he Durkon? isn't he?) And this last spell is taking multiple comics to cast. Forgive me but I don't see the point in making these particular ten minutes last multiple comics (weeks). There's not that much action going on aside from a lightning bolt or two.

For what you want, you're reading it in the wrong format. If you wait a few months and play catchup, or wait til the book comes out, instead of the comic coming out piecemeal you'll have larger blocks at once, and the flow will be much better. For reading at the pace of each update, it's not flowing as organically as the book version, because of the larger wait times, but the overall concept is still adhered to (every page will end on a joke or a cliffhanger. Size and impact may vary).

I'm not criticizing, just saying that some aspects of the story need be more drawn-out (pun intended) than others for the sake of the overall story, and it appears as if you don't enjoy reading such parts when it is still a work in progress. Nothing wrong with that, but it'll probably be more enjoyable in larger chunks.

[Bulldog Psion]

V will need something clever, as opposed to funny, to stop Thor's wrath. This is the time for Banjo to have a god-to-god talk with the Thunderer.

That, I would love to watch.

*Popcorn*

(Actually, I'm harboring a secret wish to see Banjo ascend to godhood before the end of the comic. Just because.)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That's the superiority of the sorcerer; I can just spam Detect Sarcasm until I'm out.

Bah, you think that just because you get more spells per day, you're so special. :smallmad:

[DaggerPen]

Is it me, or does less happen per comic since the art change? Like we're lucky to get 1 spell per comic now. Lots of fruitless conversation (is he Durkon? isn't he?) And this last spell is taking multiple comics to cast. Forgive me but I don't see the point in making these particular ten minutes last multiple comics (weeks). There's not that much action going on aside from a lightning bolt or two.

I donno if we had the same issue at the start of most books, but I know when the last book was starting, there were a lot of comments about the story "meandering" and being way too slow, and reading back over the archives, you just breeze through the section everyone was complaining about. I have a feeling something similar is happening here. Rich likes to ease into new books after long periods of action, and the climax of the last book was a doozy. I imagine we'll pick back up again shortly.

[warrl]

I can't help noticing how V calls Durkula 'the former Master Thundershield.' Suspicion? Nah...I am prolly reading too much into it.

I think V is of the opinion - for whatever reason - that Durkula is not Durkon. However, until that's confirmed and they have some clue what Durkula's agenda is, it makes sense to go with the idea that they are better off with an active divine caster than with a corpse.


Can V cast two spells after spotting the second lightning? Shouldn't he start casting at least the protection spell?

Actually, the second lightning gets blocked by a Forcecage. And then it won't matter what happens to the Forcecage after that, unless it's directly in the Mechane's path, so we probably won't need to discuss whether it moves with the ship or not.

As soon as that's done, it'll be time to cast the spells on Blackwing. Before the third lightning strike is detected.


I'm thinking the storm will escalate, V will have to polymorph Black wing resulting in a giant stone bird, and the title of the next panel will be "ROC me like a hurricane"


Thanks, now I'm going to have that song in my head all day long. :smallbiggrin:


I'm expecting "V will, V will Roc you," myself.

When I was a foolish elf
Lust for power would call my name
I'd ignore this small...
This familiar bird of mine
I failed a test and reformed
Respecting all my allies
My crow don't love, don't love me
But after polymorph she hugs me
She loves me as a roc
Flies with me like the roc of ages
And she loves me

(with abject apologies to Paul Simon)

[Nilehus]

Pretty sure V's suspicious, but V doesn't know.

With the guilt and consequences they're currently dealing with, I'd be very surprised if V made any judgments without being 100% sure.

How many dozens of pages arguing about magic and lightning... Never change, OotS forums. :smalltongue:

[Aaron L]

That was pretty darn snazzy. Not technically allowed according to the rules, but who cares? It was cool. And the art was just amazing.

Also, I believe V's usage of the term "the former Master Thundershield" is just another way of saying "the late Master Thundershield" as in meaning he is deceased, which he technically is, and V always strives to be technical and formal. I don't think it means anything more than that. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Also, I believe V's usage of the term "the former Master Thundershield" is just another way of saying "the late Master Thundershield" as in meaning he is deceased, which he technically is, and V always strives to be technical and formal. I don't think it means anything more than that. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
I think that this is the case as well. It is possible that Vaarsuvius suspects that something is up with Durkon beyond what is apparent, but I don't think they are certain or are revealing anything about their suspicions.

[Trixie]

Emphasis mine. So, like I have said in my previous posting, the strongest natural lightning strike deals 10d8 damage. Which is less what magic can do if someone tries hard enough.

Um, that rule is there to make a storm credible threat, yet not something gamebreaking. Imagine if it instead was 'unless you succeed on rolling 999 for Ref save, drop dead, your HP doesn't matter'. Would that be fun? I don't think so.

I saw someone on old CharOp calculate real lightning damage and it was something around ~9600 d4 (small dice to make damage less random, also, b4 any inevitable Vegeta jokes).


So let me get this straight. Literally, and I mean literally, jumping over a lightning bolt is A-OK (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) but putting up a Wall of Force to stop it isn't? :smallconfused:

You mean the jump which happened before spellcasting, seeing Miko had the action? :smallsigh:


You can use 10,560 commoners in a line to move an object 10 miles prior to the first guy finishing picking it up by having each snatch it out of the next guy's hands as he grabs it with a readied action. Then the last one lets it go while it's moving arbitrarily quickly, and it falls straight down and lands at his feet, because that's what happens when you grab something and then let it go which is all he has done.

Except, this one is totally wrong and based on breaking 7 different rules (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Peasant_Railgun#No_Fun_Allowed) :smalltongue:

[Jay R]

You mean the jump which happened before spellcasting, seeing Miko had the action? :smallsigh:

Yes, of course. Miko saw it coming, and jumped in the same panel the lightning was shown in. Similarly, V and Blackwing saw the charge building up, and then the spell was shown in the same panel the lightning was shown in.

[If I were going to claim something was inaccurate, it would be the Blackwing's ability to determine the strike is coming one panel in advance, but if you accept panel six, then panel seven is orthodox D&D.]

[Kish]

I might add that apparently readied actions are just too unbelievable but Miko hovering like a hummingbird is just fine, if one wishes to argue that Miko jumped "before spellcasting" without invoking the exact same split-second reflexes Vaarsuvius just showed. When Vaarsuvius' and Durkon's spells hit, Miko was directly over them.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think that this is the case as well. It is possible that Vaarsuvius suspects that something is up with Durkon beyond what is apparent, but I don't think they are certain or are revealing anything about their suspicions.

Given that V is usually utterly clueless about other people, I doubt there are even any suspicions.

[Keltest]

Given that V is usually utterly clueless about other people, I doubt there are even any suspicions.

I don't know about that. V has shown lack of interest rather than lack of ability to understand others. A big part of his character development is showing more concern for others.

[Porthos]

It's also not the only instance of something like that. I just didn't feel like tracking down each and every instance we've seen someone go all Matrix on us when dodging Fireballs, Lightning Bolts and whatnot. That just happened to be the first one I saw. :smallsmile:

For example, here is a non-Readied action example. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)

Sorry, but it is impossible to do what Miko did on the second page, eighth panel of that comic. Or rather, it is just as impossible as what V did in the latest strip. :smallwink:

Again, I find it noteworthy that THIS example is so worthy of disbelief and the dozens of other examples of physics weeping to itself in the corner is accepted, as-is.

[Doug Lampert]

Um, that rule is there to make a storm credible threat, yet not something gamebreaking. Imagine if it instead was 'unless you succeed on rolling 999 for Ref save, drop dead, your HP doesn't matter'. Would that be fun? I don't think so.

I saw someone on old CharOp calculate real lightning damage and it was something around ~9600 d4 (small dice to make damage less random, also, b4 any inevitable Vegeta jokes).
Nonsensical and incorrect claim is nonsensical and incorrect.

Far more actual people live through being hit by lightning than die. Real world. Where we live this is true. You seriously think Joe average on a golf course has more than 24,000 HP? Really?

If you think that real world lightning is vastly more deadly than being hit in the face by a battleaxe then that is your problem. If you think someone else made an argument that just means that someone else may also be missing it completely when it comes to lightning strikes.

The D&D rule IS unrealistic for game play, it's FAR FAR DEADLIER than any plausible value to make lightning moderately worrisome to mid level adventurers.

[Keltest]

Nonsensical and incorrect claim is nonsensical and incorrect.

Far more actual people live through being hit by lightning than die. Real world. Where we live this is true. You seriously think Joe average on a golf course has more than 24,000 HP? Really?

If you think that real world lightning is vastly more deadly than being hit in the face by a battleaxe then that is your problem. If you think someone else made an argument that just means that someone else may also be missing it completely when it comes to lightning strikes.

The D&D rule IS unrealistic for game play, it's FAR FAR DEADLIER than any plausible value to make lightning moderately worrisome to mid level adventurers.

Given what HP represent, Lightning does 0 HP damage in real life. Instead it would be more like a fairly easy saving throw vs death.

[Jay R]

What’s the point of invoking physics for a character who proudly claims to file physics texts under "Fiction" in his/her personal library?

Now if you don’t mid, V is rather busy telling the laws of the universe to shut up and sit down.

[halfeye]

Far more actual people live through being hit by lightning than die. Real world. Where we live this is true. You seriously think Joe average on a golf course has more than 24,000 HP? Really?
I think a near miss by lightning is enough to make a lot of damage, but it may not always kill. An actual direct hit would kill, always, but it almost never happens. There are millions, billions of volts in a single lightning strike, and 30,000 amps of current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning#Discharge

[Porthos]

An actual direct hit would kill, always, but it almost never happens.

Not necessarily. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike#Human_injury) (Different Wikipedia article)

Not that people should go make empirical tests for themselves, obviously. :smallwink:

[halfeye]

Not necessarily. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike#Human_injury) (Different Wikipedia article)
Yes, that's interesting.

My point was (from that page):


Direct strike casualties could be much lower than reported numbers.

[Amphiox]

If you want to make the D&D effect of lightning biologically realistic, it has to function like disintegrate.

Fail your save, the bolt triggers V-fib and you die, regardless of HP (or perhaps you drop to -9 HP and if a teammate doesn't do chest compression or defibrillation -ie a potion within 1 round, you're dead). Make your save, there is no v-fib, and you just get nailed with a HP loss from an electrical burn.

[Reddish Mage]

If you want to make the D&D effect of lightning biologically realistic, it has to function like disintegrate.

Fail your save, the bolt triggers V-fib and you die, regardless of HP (or perhaps you drop to -9 HP and if a teammate doesn't do chest compression or defibrillation -ie a potion within 1 round, you're dead). Make your save, there is no v-fib, and you just get nailed with a HP loss from an electrical burn.

Um why should you want to do that and leave the damage from, say, sword swings untouched? I mean, should PCs have to role for infection if they get cut up, or be concerned with internal, potentially fatal damage from blunt weapons, and for that matter about a few hundred other biological details that usually get ignored by the hp system.

[Keltest]

Um why should you want to do that and leave the damage from, say, sword swings untouched? I mean, should PCs have to role for infection if they get cut up, or be concerned with internal, potentially fatal damage from blunt weapons, and for that matter about a few hundred other biological details that usually get ignored by the hp system.

Im pretty sure that's the point. A lot of things that kill you are simply unfair/unfun, so they aren't in D&D. Its a game, not a simulator.

[Amphiox]

Um why should you want to do that and leave the damage from, say, sword swings untouched? I mean, should PCs have to role for infection if they get cut up, or be concerned with internal, potentially fatal damage from blunt weapons, and for that matter about a few hundred other biological details that usually get ignored by the hp system.

Internal damage is sort-of accounted for by critical hits.

But actually a custom campaign where you DO have to roll for infection could be made to work. The key here is that unlike lightning and v-fib, infection won't kill your character immediately. So one only has to roll at the end of combat. And if the setting has appropriate medicines available freely, it just means that careful adventurers pack some penicillin along with their potions.

It would actually function more or less the same as a campaign where all weapons are poisoned...

My point about lightning in General would be restricted to things that cause rapid/instant death by a special mechanism OTHER than the usual accumulation of trauma. It is not the same as getting your aorta cut and bleeding out - that's still standard hack it until it stops working. The HP system, allowing fantastical extension of reality, accounts for that as general resistance to general trauma -so with training your aorta gets extra tough walls.

But in the case of the lightning, the v-fib is unrelated to the general tissue damage caused by the lightning. v-fib can be triggered even if there is NO tissue damage whatsoever. Hence the save-or-die mechanic.

If one chooses to include that into a game mechanic, one can also allow for ways to protect against it. There could be a defibrillation spell for clerics, or fighters could have a "Mighty Heart" feat that makes their heart muscles resistant to v-fib, or a "Frugal Might" feat that makes all their tissues extra resistant to low oxygen conditions, which would make them resistant to v-fib (or at least survive it longer) as well as excessive blood loss, and increase stamina and decrease fatigue as well.

(Another biological reality thing for lightning is that the electric discharge, again, even if too weak to produce any tissue damage, would produce a general spontaneous muscle discharge, like being hit with a taser, meaning a character should have to save against being stunned/paralyzed for 1-2 rounds (or a number based on level). And if struck in the head, the same electric effect could produced a seizure, which would knock the character out of combat for several more rounds, if not the duration of combat...)

[warrl]

Amphiox, I believe you have adequately demonstrated why D&D doesn't attempt to simulate all that stuff.

[halfeye]

But in the case of the lightning, the v-fib is unrelated to the general tissue damage caused by the lightning. v-fib can be triggered even if there is NO tissue damage whatsoever. Hence the save-or-die mechanic.
A direct hit by lightning, which I believe to be much rarer that people being affected by near misses, would be utterly catastrophic in the traumatic damage it caused. When I was a kid, a tree about a quarter of a mile away was hit, it was knocked down, shattered, there was a spiky bit of stump left, with burns on it, but most of the tree was gone, the farmer probably took the wood away, but he wouldn't have done that if the tree had been whole.

A direct hit by full on real world lightning would mean all the water in the affected parts of you boiling, in a millisecond, you'd basically explode. A nuclear bomb is worse, a non-nuclear bomb is less intense, but the effects of any sort of bomb travel further outward.

Fibrillation should probably be left to real world medicine in my view, it's not the sort of thing to simulate in a game IMHO.

[Peelee]

A direct hit by lightning, which I believe to be much rarer that people being affected by near misses, would be utterly catastrophic in the traumatic damage it caused. When I was a kid, a tree about a quarter of a mile away was hit, it was knocked down, shattered, there was a spiky bit of stump left, with burns on it, but most of the tree was gone, the farmer probably took the wood away, but he wouldn't have done that if the tree had been whole.

A direct hit by full on real world lightning would mean all the water in the affected parts of you boiling, in a millisecond, you'd basically explode.

Don't tell that to Roy Sullivan (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Sullivan).

[DaggerPen]

While I'm definitely a believer in D&D abstraction when it comes to most things, I can actually kind of dig the "save or die" Disintegrate-esque model for real lightning, simply because, if you are in a situation where your PC is getting struck by lightning, one of three situations is most likely:

1. Your DM hates you (meaning you're screwed no matter what)
2. You probably earned it somehow ("Huh, maybe looting that Temple of Thor and peeing on the altar was a bad idea?")
3. You're in a situation where lightning is a real threat, so it should be a real threat (If you're caught out in a storm, then you're likely playing a more realistic campaign anyway that actually bothers with weather and stuff, in which case this type of deal fits right in)