Variant, non-broken monk.

[atemu1234]

I'm making a PC for a new campaign. This PC is one I want to be overpowered (it's a high optimization group) through variant rules. I'm forgetting something... oh, right, it's a monk. Go to town, build me a build. It'll be an interesting show of what you can do.

[John Longarrow]

What level, starting stats, and any limits on race/alignment?

Also, any reason your not building a sword sage?

[atemu1234]

What level, starting stats, and any limits on race/alignment?

Also, any reason your not building a sword sage?

Human, first level but planning for future, and DM doesn't allow TOB.

[Kennisiou]

Probably the strongest variant is Martial Monk, especially in the early game. You trade your monk bonus feat for a fighter bonus feat that otherwise follows the rules of the normal monk bonus feat to roughly paraphrase at level 1-2. One of the rules of the normal monk bonus feat is the monk doesn't have to meet any of the normal prerequisites for the feat. Take powerful feats at the top of feat trees at 1-2 (weapon supremacy is one of the usual choices, other choices are pretty much up to you). The next strongest monk variant is wild monk from dragon #324, which sadly does not give the monk bonus feats so you can't be a martial wild monk. It's a monk that gives up a few different monk class features to gain wildshape as well as some random druid class features. Honestly this is likely to scale into the late game way better than martial monk, since wildshaping is way more relevant at level 20 than weapon supremacy. Invisible Fist and Decisive Strike are monk features that cause him to lose evasion and flurry of blows respectivley. Invisible fist is swift invisibility while decisive strike gives you the ability to true strike instead of flurrying. Both are a whole lot better than the abilities they replace. Your best bet is probably a martial monk with those two ACFs for the early game or a wild monk with those two ACFs for later in the game.

Edit: Actually, you probably don't need to ACF away flurry of blows on wild monk. With access to a number of wildshape forms with pounce, the wild monk should have no problem moving and attacking in the same round, and flurry of blows on pounce is probably a lot stronger than decisive strike on it.

[Sian]

Monk 2 / Psionic Warrior 17 / Shiba Protector 1 with Tashalatora is very decent

[Nightraiderx]

-Obligatory Tashlatora Monk post-

Built with flurry/ unarmed strike/ AC bonus and psionic powers.
Psychic warrior is mid tier, you can create an ardent using the same base feats.

-drat foiled again by a swashbuckler!

[Ansem]

Wild Monk6/MoMF10/Shou Disciple4 perhaps if DM is a B about natural weapons and FoB, otherwise substitute for something nice.

[John Longarrow]

atemu1234
Are you looking specifically for MONK or for an unarmed combatant?

[atemu1234]

atemu1234
Are you looking specifically for MONK or for an unarmed combatant?

Monk, preferably. If such a thing exists.

[Telonius]

Very, very hard case there. If you're insistent on Monk levels, how about ...

Human Rogue1/Monk4/Dragon Descendant10/(something)5

Feats the first three levels:
1 Dragontouched, Able Learner
2 Stunning Fist
3 Combat Reflexes, Craven

Able Learner gives you a whole bunch of utility from your Rogue skills. (Also gives you UMD as a class skill, for when you're using all of those partially-charged wands). When you reach Dragon Descendant3 you can activate Subtle Ancestor, making your Dragon Descendant levels stack with Rogue for sneak attack (and granting an extra 2d6 sneak). Craven improves the damage from there. Depending on how your DM rules, it's possible that you could qualify for some of the Sneak Attack feats that require more than 1d6 sneak; that's in iffy territory though.

[squiggit]

Martial chaos monk with warlock and hellfire warlock (plus binder 1 and some dips for keying things off of charisma) gives you a lot of damage and a decent set of skills

[Rubik]

Monk 2 / Psionic Warrior 17 / Shiba Protector 1 with Tashalatora is very decentThis. Totally this. But you may want to take this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) and use monk/psywar instead of monk/fighter/psywar/cleric. The only reason I didn't go Tashalatoran psychic warrior is because I had to use 17+ levels of monk for the challenge. Tashalatora would've worked even better.

[Curmudgeon]

Probably the strongest variant is Martial Monk, especially in the early game. You trade your monk bonus feat for a fighter bonus feat that otherwise follows the rules of the normal monk bonus feat to roughly paraphrase at level 1-2. One of the rules of the normal monk bonus feat is the monk doesn't have to meet any of the normal prerequisites for the feat.
That's only true to a limited, likely non-useful, extent.
A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. Yes, the Monk can select any available feat without having to meet the normal prerequisites. They are not allowed to use the feat without prerequisites, however. In a Monk build this allows extra freedom of the order in which you acquire feats — and that's all.

[John Longarrow]

Monk, preferably. If such a thing exists.

OK, what about the class MONK do you want out of this build? Also check with your DM to see if he will allow the feat superior unarmed strike from ToB.
Without knowing what about MONK you want it is hard to work out a good build. For some cases Rogue 20 with improved unarmed strike will do better than a Monk...

[Snowbluff]

That's only true to a limited, likely non-useful, extent. Yes, the Monk can select any available feat without having to meet the normal prerequisites. They are not allowed to use the feat without prerequisites, however. In a Monk build this allows extra freedom of the order in which you acquire feats — and that's all.

I'll do you one better. The monk may only select feats from the Fighter Bonus Feat list. That's the one in the PHB or SRD. Feats that read "A fighter may select this as a fighter bonus feat." are not eligible.

[Rubik]

I'll do you one better. The monk may only select feats from the Fighter Bonus Feat list. That's the one in the PHB or SRD. Feats that read "A fighter may select this as a fighter bonus feat." are not eligible.Though that text does add it to the fighter list in the PHB.

[JusticeZero]

Is it okay to be a monk in feel without using actual monk levels?

[Renen]

This is a guy who was worried he might unbalance monk...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356127-Monk-Fighting-Styles-with-different-feat-orders

[Rubik]

This is a guy who was worried he might unbalance monk...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356127-Monk-Fighting-Styles-with-different-feat-ordersWell, the O.P. really shouldn't worry about being overpowered unless he's playing in a group of commoners. And he might not even need to worry then, depending on what they do with Infested With Chickens and skillful weapons.

[Snowbluff]

Though that text does add it to the fighter list in the PHB.

Could you source that?

[Renen]

Well, the O.P. really shouldn't worry about being overpowered unless he's playing in a group of commoners. And he might not even need to worry then, depending on what they do with Infested With Chickens and skillful weapons.

Yeh. Or unless he participated in tippy's monk challenge *shudder*

[Rubik]

Could you source that?According to the SRD ([url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats):


Any feat designated as a fighter feat can be selected as a fighter’s bonus feat. This designation does not restrict characters of other classes from selecting these feats, assuming that they meet any prerequisites.Bolded for emphasis.

[Snowbluff]

According to the SRD ([url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats):

Bolded for emphasis.
It doesn't contradict what I said. I'm saying the list isn't increased, just the feats a fighter is allowed to take.

[Rubik]

It doesn't contradict what I said. I'm saying the list isn't increased, just the feats a fighter is allowed to take.There is no mention of the list "in the PHB," just the fighter feat list. Any feat marked with [fighter] is added to the list of feats the fighter can take.

That really isn't a difficult idea to grasp.

[atemu1234]

This is a guy who was worried he might unbalance monk...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?356127-Monk-Fighting-Styles-with-different-feat-orders

Actually, I was more worried about breaking the variant. As in, having it not work properly. Poor wording on my part.

[Snowbluff]

There is no mention of the list "in the PHB," just the fighter feat list. Any feat marked with [fighter] is added to the list of feats the fighter can take.

That really isn't a difficult idea to grasp.
There's one list, and the eats are not added to that list ("the list"). It's that simple. A fighter may select the newer feats, but a monk is not a fighter. Martial Monk does not give "Fighter Bonus Feats," but the "Fighter Bonus Feat List."

If it's not in a list, it's not in a list. It's needs to be written as a list to be list. Wizards have a lot of lists. Fighters have 1 list. And that's being generous.

[Rubik]

There's one list, and the eats are not added to that list ("the list"). It's that simple. A fighter may select the newer feats, but a monk is not a fighter. Martial Monk does not give "Fighter Bonus Feats," but the "Fighter Bonus Feat List."

If it's not in a list, it's not in a list. It's needs to be written as a list to be list. Wizards have a lot of lists. Fighters have 1 list. And that's being generous.I've seen lists of the fighter bonus feats, such as on CrystalKeep. Again, really not difficult to just write up a proper list.

[Snowbluff]

I've seen lists of the fighter bonus feats, such as on CrystalKeep. Again, really not difficult to just write up a proper list.

The problem is that it's a homebrew list. That's putting stuff on a list that isn't on the list.

[Synar]

The problem is that it's a homebrew list. That's putting stuff on a list that isn't on the list.

Well, either you're wrong, or this belong in the dysfunctionnal rules thread. No sane DM should rule that a monk can't take fighter bonus feat, only feats in the fighter bonus feat list. Just like the fact that a monk is not by RAW proficient with its monk strike, but clearly is by RAI (and I defy you to argue that the authors thought this would be a problem, and purposely created it).
To furhter my point, in no place in any book is there pointed out a meaningful distinction any distinction between those two notions (as in they are never referenced differently both in the same sentence or group of sentence. The only distinction is the addition of the term "list". I believe it is clear as crystal that no meaningfull distinction was intended by the authors.
Anyway, such a distinction woul not even make sense as there is no reason to add a feat to a bonus feat list so it can be by the first (in chronological order) class beneficiating from it, but not to the others, and there is even less reason not to point it out explicitely, saying : "however, this feat is not added to the fighter bonus feat list".

And if you go to the already poor, weak monk, and say as a DM: "no, you can't select this feat, as I found a subtle difference in phrasing between two notions that are clearly the same, you should just play the RAW-legal Punpun instead", well, I don't know what to say to you.

So such considerations are great in a 'lets point out all the dysfunctionnal rules' thread and all, but when it comes to create and play an actual character, I believe they can be safely ignored.




Also, to the op, did you know of Giacommo's guide to monks?


P.S.:(My poor knowledge of the english language made me think that the 'type a elements list' contained all elements of type a, even those that say: 'those elements are treated as if of type a'.)

[Phelix-Mu]

My recipe is Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk, with just enough wizard to qualify for Abjurant Champion ASAP. Go conjurer, pick up Abrupt Jaunt ACF, Sun School, and Snap Kick. If you can manage it, grab Obtain Familiar, and work with benign transposition and similar effects, maybe even the reserve feat for teleporting in Complete Mage. Basically, the idea is to trigger attacks off of teleporting. Some higher-op builds can cram shadowpounce in there, but then monk ends up being a footnote to the build. I got a DM to accept that Abrupt Jaunt doesn't require LoS to the destination (totally plausible) which made this lots of fun for infiltration; teleporting to the other side of a wall or locked door is fun.

After Abjurant Champion, consider more monk (for a challenge) or Master of the East Wind (a monk/arcanist class from Dragon Magazine...or maybe it was Master of the West Wind).

So, be LG, go for luminous armour (Book of Exalted Deeds). Have an AC of "no." Either cast yourself of get ally to cast mighty wallop/greater mighty wallop whenever possible. Wraithstrike is good on tough enemies that need to go down in a hurry. Have a necklace of natural attacks (3.5 version in web content is almost identical to the one in Savage Species...down to the stupid suggestion to use it with the throwing enchantment, as I recall). Metalline or the ToM shadowstriking would be ideal, but there are a ton of WSAs that work really well on monk attacks (especially from a flavor standpoint).

My favorite ACFs for monk are Wallwalker (Dungeonscape), Prayerful Meditation (Complete Champion), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), and perhaps some of the planar monk sub levels from Planar Handbook. If you have a penchant for sneakiness, go for Invisible Fist. I don't think the concealment one is compatible with luminous armour due to alignment conflicts, but I might be misremembering.

So, overall, it's an Int-based monk that teleports around and kicks ass. Be shiny in glowing, heavenly armour of goodness, or be dark and sneaky. I eventually got high enough that I had adamantine strike from monk levels, and had lots of fun bashing holes in walls, teleporting circles around pit fiends, and generally making trouble for my DM.

[Rubik]

The problem is that it's a homebrew list. That's putting stuff on a list that isn't on the list....And you really think yours is in any way a reasonable distinction to keep the obviously overpowered monk from taking fighter feats, or that such was intended? The differences between "fighter bonus feats" and "fighter bonus feat list" are utterly negligible in regular conversation. Screwing over someone playing a monk "just because" is kind of a jerky thing to do as a DM. It's not like there are many PC classes that are less powerful and more useless than a monk. Heck, half the NPC classes are more powerful and useful to just about any group.

[edit] Unarmed swordsage'd.

[Renen]

I think his main argument (oh god... am I backing snowbluff?) is simply that by strictest RAW, its only the list.

Obviously even he would agree (he better) that it would make sence for any gm to just allow all fighter feats for reasons mentioned by rubik

[toapat]

Here, try this I cant believe its not Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336196), its an almost perfectly legal monk created through combining variants and ACFs. Resists nature's lure should not be granted at third level

Its also really powerful.

[Snowbluff]

I think his main argument (oh god... am I backing snowbluff?) is simply that by strictest RAW, its only the list.

Obviously even he would agree (he better) that it would make sence for any gm to just allow all fighter feats for reasons mentioned by rubik

Indeed. The argument was originally to get around that "I have epic fighter feats" crap, but I ended up debunking the entire ACF. Nothing about it dysfunctional in any way. In fact, your feat list is greatly improved for several styles. It's just not all-encompassing like people think it is.

What Curmudgeon said has much wider implications. Even if you were to grab any fighter feat you wanted, you couldn't use it.

Personally, I would rather not have the monk just circumvent every requirement, but the combination of being MAD and not having full BAB (BAB is a common prerequisite) leaves no other option. A fixed monk in terms of bonus feats would simply have full BAB, be less MAD, and would have to meet their prereqs. Unfortunately, you might as well have a fighter at that point.

Also, I'm only like 48% unbackable. I try to have reasons to say the things I say. :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

I try to have reasons to say the things I say. :smalltongue:

Reasons? REASONS?!

Snowbluff, you killed the internet.

This probably wins you an honorary internet.

[Snowbluff]

Reasons? REASONS?!

Snowbluff, you killed the internet.

This probably wins you an honorary internet.

Woops. :smallsigh:

If it's any consolation, I'll foster this honorary internet in order to replace the one I mercilessly cut down in its prime.

Thanks. :smallcool:

[Anlashok]

It's not like giving the Monk two weapon rend or robilar's gambit at level 2 is particularly broken anyways, so I don't get all the (questionable) RAW finagling to try to make the ACF worse.

[Snowbluff]

It's not like giving the Monk two weapon rend or robilar's gambit at level 2 is particularly broken anyways, so I don't get all the (questionable) RAW finagling to try to make the ACF worse.

It's not a question about "RAW finagling," more like one of what happens when you assume things.

Monk2, Decisive Strike + Rolimbar's = "I attack you, but I get slaughtered in response!" Very tricky.

[Anlashok]

Double damage AoOs are sexy.

But we're still playing in a game with wizards, clerics and druids.

[Snowbluff]

Double damage AoOs are sexy.

But we're still playing in a game with wizards, clerics and druids.

They're broken in different ways. I wouldn't aspire to push a monk to a druid's level (Perish the though!). However, they should be move into line with their prospective peers. That is to say, the T3 crowd.

[bekeleven]

That's only true to a limited, likely non-useful, extent. Yes, the Monk can select any available feat without having to meet the normal prerequisites. They are not allowed to use the feat without prerequisites, however. In a Monk build this allows extra freedom of the order in which you acquire feats — and that's all.

This argument has been made before. It means every level 1 monk that used stunning fist was playing wrong, so people tend to ignore it.

[Synar]

Oh.
I did not though of epic fighter feats. I'm starting to see the problem of the ACF.
Still, I believe that RAI (or even RAW) is that a monk can take any fighter bonus feat.
However, I still believe not letting monks take too powerful feats (if those feats are too powerful indeed, and not just making the monk a bit better) might be a better way to fix the ACF than limiting its feat selection to the PHB, but your interpretation has the merit of not being dm-dependent.

[animewatcha]

There is a different between taking epic endurance or epic prowess versus taking 2 martial monk 2 levels and becoming immune to ranged atttack rolls.

[Keld Denar]

My simple monk fix was to remove all of the Monk SU abilities other than speed and anything related to AC bonuses. Then add in full PsyWar manifesting, including powers known and PP/day.

Boom, fix't. Play that, 1-20, and you'll have fun and be awesome.

[squiggit]

Yes, the Monk can select any available feat without having to meet the normal prerequisites. They are not allowed to use the feat without prerequisites, however.

Page 7 of the monster manual (and SRD) disagrees:

Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.