Player starts holding the angst ball...

[atemu1234]

I've recently had a PC who was forced (do to events) to kill an Unholy Scion. He feels horribly guilty about it, and decided that his character wandered away from the group to seek help (in game, NPC girlfriend) and we're discussing making him return addicted to a drug. It's homebrewed, so don't bother looking it up, but we use the system from Unearthed Arcana. Basically, what effects should this have on how he plays the character? Here are the stats on the drug.

Woewort
Type: Ingested DC 20
Price: 30 gp
Craft DC: Craft Alchemy DC 30 to make, Profession (Herbologist) DC 25 to grow for making.
Addiction Rating: Medium

It's a mushroom that's generally boiled and drunk or consumed raw.

Initial Effect: 1d4 Wisdom Damage
Secondary Effect: 1d6 Strength Damage.
Side-Effects: This drug eliminates the user's sense of morality. For the purpose of spells such as detect evil or smite evil, the user appears as neutral evil for the duration of the spell.

So, any tips?

[Yue Ryong]

...Why Neutral Evil? Why not simply 'Evil', leaving their Ethical position untouched?

[Telonius]

That depends a bit on how he played the character before. What was his previous alignment, why exactly does he feel guilty, and why did he start taking the drug? Was it just to forget whatever he did, or did he deliberately want to not care?

[atemu1234]

...Why Neutral Evil? Why not simply 'Evil', leaving their Ethical position untouched?

All morality disappears. Everything is affected.

[Gildedragon]

All morality disappears. Everything is affected.

Why not true neutral then? Or is the drug compelling this fella to evil? Making him feel evil is the way to do things

[Red Fel]

All morality disappears. Everything is affected.

If morality disappears, wouldn't that make him amoral instead of immoral? Wouldn't that ping him as Neutral instead of Evil?

[jedipotter]

Role-playing.....this looks like a bad idea. It is a bit beyond weird that so specific a drug exists, and I can see it leading to problems. It does take away free will, right? If he is all drugged up, sense of morality. Period. So he has to act that way 100%.

Well it will be bad enough that he will do crazy stuff and blame it on the drug, but even worse is when he won't do crazy stuff and not blame it on the drug.

So when it comes down to, well the player will just do whatever they think is cool.....why even have the drug?

[atemu1234]

If morality disappears, wouldn't that make him amoral instead of immoral? Wouldn't that ping him as Neutral instead of Evil?

They ping as neutral evil because true neutral means that you have at least some respect for anything. True neutral means you don't take part in the struggle between anything, be it law or chaos or good or evil. But this drug literally removes your feeling of morality. While on it, you can still tell right from wrong. But you simply feel no guilt, no matter what it is you're doing.

[Gildedragon]

They ping as neutral evil because true neutral means that you have at least some respect for anything. True neutral means you don't take part in the struggle between anything, be it law or chaos or good or evil. But this drug literally removes your feeling of morality. While on it, you can still tell right from wrong. But you simply feel no guilt, no matter what it is you're doing.

Being able to distinguish right from wrong is feelings of morality.
This drug isn't then amoral (sans feelings of morality) as inmoral.

And no respect for anything strikes me as more chaotic than neutral.
The drug as you present it seems more CE than anything.

Now to remove feelings of morality would mean you don't see the point in Good or Evil. You become neutral as you have no feelings that guide you to either side of the alignment chart.

[Red Fel]

Now to remove feelings of morality would mean you don't see the point in Good or Evil. You become neutral as you have no feelings that guide you to either side of the alignment chart.

This. Removing a person's sense of morality doesn't make them Evil; it makes them apathetic to the concepts of Good and Evil. That has been described in the classic anarchist (CN), the classic Inevitable (LN), and the classic hermit (TN). These are beings that don't care about Good or Evil, just about their own particular needs and wants.

What it sounds like you're trying to accomplish is a drug that removes guilt. Stated differently, it's a drug that absolves a person of the awareness of responsibility for their actions. It doesn't remove morality; rather, it deludes the user into believing that he isn't responsible for what he does. That sort of drug would remove the conscience, the moral imperative to do good, without hindering a person's malicious lust for wickedness. In essence, it would tilt the user towards Evil, simply by merit of them having no sense of responsibility to do Good.

I'm not convinced that it causes a person to ping. Much like, with very few exceptions, a person under magical compulsion is not considered morally responsible for their actions (read: is less likely to suffer an alignment penalty), a person under a supernatural makes-you-Evil drug should be less likely to be held accountable. That said, he may be held accountable for consciously deciding to take a drug that makes you Evil, but that's a separate affair.

Honestly, I'm going with the group on this one. It just sounds like it's inviting bad ideas. Want him to develop a substance abuse problem? Let the character be an angry drunk. Let him wake up hung over, realize what he's done while smashed, and crawl back into the bottle as soon as he can move. Doesn't sound like it would make for fun RP for very long, does it?

[atemu1234]

This. Removing a person's sense of morality doesn't make them Evil; it makes them apathetic to the concepts of Good and Evil. That has been described in the classic anarchist (CN), the classic Inevitable (LN), and the classic hermit (TN). These are beings that don't care about Good or Evil, just about their own particular needs and wants.

What it sounds like you're trying to accomplish is a drug that removes guilt. Stated differently, it's a drug that absolves a person of the awareness of responsibility for their actions. It doesn't remove morality; rather, it deludes the user into believing that he isn't responsible for what he does. That sort of drug would remove the conscience, the moral imperative to do good, without hindering a person's malicious lust for wickedness. In essence, it would tilt the user towards Evil, simply by merit of them having no sense of responsibility to do Good.

I'm not convinced that it causes a person to ping. Much like, with very few exceptions, a person under magical compulsion is not considered morally responsible for their actions (read: is less likely to suffer an alignment penalty), a person under a supernatural makes-you-Evil drug should be less likely to be held accountable. That said, he may be held accountable for consciously deciding to take a drug that makes you Evil, but that's a separate affair.

Honestly, I'm going with the group on this one. It just sounds like it's inviting bad ideas. Want him to develop a substance abuse problem? Let the character be an angry drunk. Let him wake up hung over, realize what he's done while smashed, and crawl back into the bottle as soon as he can move. Doesn't sound like it would make for fun RP for very long, does it?

Honestly, half the reason he pings as evil is the Rule of Drama. And yes, it actually seems to be.

[Gildedragon]

Honestly, half the reason he pings as evil is the Rule of Drama. And yes, it actually seems to be.

Fair enough.

Note though that smite evil isn't a spell, its a Su ability.

As to effects on how he plays his character. None at all. the player plays their character however they want to.

Does the player want to return addicted (with the addiction mechanics) AND be treated as evil? If so cool. If not: scrap that drug.

Also the side effect is merely a roleplay side effect (except the evil-dar bit) so the penalties should be just fluff. As is you're kinda shooting the character in the kneecaps for wanting to RP.
Pinging as evil is ok as a fluff penalty (not so much being subject to negative effects of spells). And the wisdom damage is bad enough. Strength damage on a fighter, you're just punishing the player.

You're making up this thing for the player's rp benefit, don't hurt the character where he needs it the most.

Fluff side-effect benefits get matched with fluff penalties
Mechanical penalties get paired with mechanical benefits
especially if the player is being a good sport and providing entertainment for the DMs stories.

Now:

Mechanical side-effect that fits the fluff better: immune to alignment based spells, and effects: ie. can pick up an unholy axiomatic holy chaotic sword and take no damage
this makes the penalties somewhat less harsh than pinging as evil to detect evil (and good to detect good, because that side effect does not override the character's alignment)

[Socratov]

So, to recap: mental trauma, leading to immense feelings of guilt and remorse. Now what trigger those feelings? If you are going to say memory you are correct. So, how about:

Some people can live with the guilt of slaughter, the guilt of events gone awry. Others take refuge, to hide from their inner demons. Those others quickly succumb and fall to Worrynot. As the user ingests the drug, his eyelids start to droop and his facial features start to relax. As the drug reaches it's full effect the user seems happy in getting his peace and quiet. Once the drug ends though, the nightmares and memories return, sinking the user into a state of despair.

Worrynot
Type: Ingested DC 20
Price: 30 gp
Craft DC: Craft Alchemy DC 30 to make, Profession (Herbologist) DC 25 to grow for making.
Addiction Rating: Strong

It's a milk form a wild flower that has blossomed and is forming it's seeds.

Initial Effect: 1d4 Intelligence Damage
Secondary Effect: 1d6 Strength Damage.
Side-Effects: This drug eliminates the user's sense of self. Trapped in a haze of forgetfulness the user can't make skillchecks governed by Intelligence (i.e. any skillcheck withan INT bonus). When the drug's effect end the user is shaken for up to 1 hour.

[Dimcair]

The rest of the party is okay with this? I see the potential for pissing people off ;).

[Arc_knight25]

This kinda sounds like a soulless Sam from Supernatural.

Once Sam was brought back from being imprisoned with Micheal and Lucifer(i.e his soul was pretty much a wiping post for both of them) Castiel just kinda leaves it behind.

Sam then becomes a very dark Spock kinda character using logic and not using any emotion to make decisions since he lacks a soul.

One instance is Sam letting Dean get turned by a vampire when he could have stopped it from happening. Sam knew of a cure, but failed to tell Dean until way later in the episode. Sam knew he could use Dean as an in to get into the coven they were hunting.

This Soulless Sam is in Season 6.

I highly recommend watching all the seasons. Its a great show, cheesey in spots but hilarious in others.