So, is Darkness REALLY that bad... or not?

[Inevitability]

Just a question, but if you use the spell Darkness, and you hide in it, would enemies be able to see an area of shadowy illumination moving as you sneak around? Wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of using the spell to hide, as enemies can now just fireball the small dark area?

[Duke of Urrel]

The Darkness spell is like a portable source of normal concealment, which imposes a 20% miss chance on all enemy attacks. It can also be used to hide in, but you're right; if you move around and carry a source of Darkness with you, you're going to have just as much difficulty staying hidden as when you try to use Hide skill on the move, as you do when you sneak through forest undergrowth. Indeed, you're likely to have even more difficulty using Darkness to stay hidden while you move, because the sphere of Darkness can be observed to move with you, so that it can't really be that hard for your enemies to find the center point from which the Darkness emanates.

Maybe a better idea would be to have somebody else, maybe somebody who has the benefit of the Invisibility spell, carry your source of Darkness for you while you sneak around in a different direction.

[mabriss lethe]

Actually, it can be a really handy spell. Remember, Darkness targets an object that then radiates the effect and it blocked by anything lightproof. You can cast the spell on an item and then throw it as a ranged debuff. You can use it as a trap if you have some means of keeping it covered until needed. I won't say the possibilities are endless, but it's actually a pretty flexible spell.

[atemu1234]

One of my favorite builds is a Drow Ranger with At Home in the Deep and bonus darkness castings, riding on a black dragon. It was epic.

[Phelix-Mu]

I had a whisper gnome warlock who used the darkness invocation and a couple of the darkness feats from Drow of the Underdark. Lots of fun playing with sensory deprivation tactics.

[nedz]

Assuming that you are not referring to the Shadowy Illumination dysfunction it's a bit like Silence. Very handy for hiding things, but it can be a bit suspicious.

[Inevitability]

Assuming that you are not referring to the Shadowy Illumination dysfunction it's a bit like Silence. Very handy for hiding things, but it can be a bit suspicious.

What is this dysfunction?

[Dunditschia]

What is this dysfunction?

He probably means that the spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination, allowing darkness to function as a sort of very mild light spell in complete darkness, because some light is better than no light (20% miss chance instead of 50%).

[Thiyr]

Moving around with the darkness would make it easier to find you, but it still has benefit. They still can't see you, so they can only target your square or use area attacks. Plus, if the darkness is on an object, you can make them think you're at the center by moving while the darkness is observed , then dropping the object and moving within the darkness. That's a but niche, but having mind games ready never hurts.

[Phelix-Mu]

Moving around with the darkness would make it easier to find you, but it still has benefit. They still can't see you, so they can only target your square or use area attacks. Plus, if the darkness is on an object, you can make them think you're at the center by moving while the darkness is observed , then dropping the object and moving within the darkness. That's a but niche, but having mind games ready never hurts.

I seem to remember a 2e game where a wizard or someone was placing darkness on mice and letting them loose to distract the enemy and throw them into confusion. Pretty amusing tactic.

Also, however did they make the whole issue of sight and light so confusing in 3e? I mean, I know it's complicated if you really want high levels of simulationism, but if you are going for just a baseline functionality, they really missed the mark on light source interaction, imho.

[Rubik]

I seem to remember a 2e game where a wizard or someone was placing darkness on mice and letting them loose to distract the enemy and throw them into confusion. Pretty amusing tactic.

Also, however did they make the whole issue of sight and light so confusing in 3e? I mean, I know it's complicated if you really want high levels of simulationism, but if you are going for just a baseline functionality, they really missed the mark on light source interaction, imho.Like the fact that you can't actually see a bright light source or someone standing right next to it if you're too far away and outside of the light's radius?

[Phelix-Mu]

Like the fact that you can't actually see a bright light source or someone standing right next to it if you're too far away and outside of the light's radius?

Yeah. It just breaks verisimilitude. My normal houserule is that the radii given are only for combat purposes and targeting. For scouting and just visibility issues, you can see that several someones are standing around that campfire from 100yds away +, but not accurately enough to target without the collected figures gaining some kind of concealment (which I largely handle on the fly, based on character level and just how heroic the deed is).

I think they rather badly conflated the fluff of vision with the combat effects of knowing which square to drop you attacks/spells in.

[Curmudgeon]

Moving around with the darkness would make it easier to find you, but it still has benefit. They still can't see you, so they can only target your square or use area attacks.
That's completely wrong. They can see you, just dimly. The poor vision in shadowy illumination just means there's a 20% miss chance if you target someone you don't see clearly.
In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

[Rijan_Sai]

One good thing about it, though, is that without utilizing extra resources, low-light and darkvisions can't see though magical darkness, so you have the concealment against them, too.

At least as far as I understand it...

[Thiyr]

That's completely wrong. They can see you, just dimly. The poor vision in shadowy illumination just means there's a 20% miss chance if you target someone you don't see clearly.

I stand by my statement, as I was going off the OP's statement (emphasis mine):


Just a question, but if you use the spell Darkness, and you hide in it.

If you hide (and I assume the hide check is not successfully opposed), they won't see you.

[Curmudgeon]

If you hide (and I assume the hide check is not successfully opposed), they won't see you.
That's the thing: you can't assume you're successfully hidden. You check might be superior, but then again the enemy's Spot might win instead. It's a contest of opposed checks with no known outcome, which is significantly different than invisibility (where you can't be seen unless the enemy has a special ability, and an assumption is warranted). And because ordinary concealment doesn't block line of sight, you're not allowed to make a Hide check if your enemy is observing, even casually (absent Hide in Plain Sight, that is). So an attempt at hiding is no guarantee you'll be hidden. Even if you were successfully hidden, moving around (carrying your concealment as you go) probably* means making a new Hide check opposed by new Spot checks by your enemies, making it increasingly likely you'll fail to be hidden.

* - This is dependent on how the DM interprets the following highlighted word:
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. Possibilities here include:

the same creature/object
the same creature/object in the same location
the same creature/object in the same location repeating an action (or no action)

Only if the DM decides on the first, most restrictive, option to Spot "something" would new passive checks be disallowed to see the character moving about in their Darkness sphere.

[Chronos]

You, the player who's attempting to use the Hide skill, can't assume that you're successfully hidden, but we, the posters discussing an abstract situation on this message board, can.

[Thiyr]

That's the thing: you can't assume you're successfully hidden. You check might be superior, but then again the enemy's Spot might win instead. It's a contest of opposed checks with no known outcome, which is significantly different than invisibility (where you can't be seen unless the enemy has a special ability, and an assumption is warranted). And because ordinary concealment doesn't block line of sight, you're not allowed to make a Hide check if your enemy is observing, even casually (absent Hide in Plain Sight, that is). So an attempt at hiding is no guarantee you'll be hidden. Even if you were successfully hidden, moving around (carrying your concealment as you go) probably* means making a new Hide check opposed by new Spot checks by your enemies, making it increasingly likely you'll fail to be hidden.

* - This is dependent on how the DM interprets the following highlighted word: Possibilities here include:

the same creature/object
the same creature/object in the same location
the same creature/object in the same location repeating an action (or no action)

Only if the DM decides on the first, most restrictive, option to Spot "something" would new passive checks be disallowed to see the character moving about in their Darkness sphere.

Most of this is pedantic at best. Nothing you've said denies that one can be hidden within the darkness (as there's nothing specifically barring), so to clarify AGAIN, I specified the assumption that one was successful in hiding for the sake of argument. Obviously somebody could beat your hide check, that's so basic that it should not need to be said. Further, even if you're initially observed, you're a bluff check away from being able to make your hide check (see: Creating a Diversion to Hide in the Bluff rules, potentially waiving the -10 penalty to hide given that the stated purpose is not required for your hiding, as you need not move any more than normal to be capable of hiding). So again, working under the basic assumption that one is hidden, which is being used to define a common starting point from which to work from, as present in the OP, one could do this.

Further, that list of possibilities is at best attempting to mince words. It says "Something". The second sentence, about trying to see something which you already failed to see, helps to clarify the intent (And yes, I'm discussing intent, not straight RAW here. Hell, I'm continuing to work off the OP's statement of how things are working.) Something is, in its common usage, a thing. Outside of a philosophy classroom or a discussion on Taoism, most people will agree that if you move an object (hereafter referred to as a "Thing", per the definition of something from the OED, "a thing that is unspecified or unknown") a foot to the left, it is still the same thing. The addition of rules for making additional spot checks on the same thing which one failed to see prior further supports the idea that one would not get additional spot checks every time the thing in question moves. As hiding is typically a part of movement, they would have specified that an individual opposing the hide check would get an additional check each time movement occurs.

[Inevitability]

By the way, I have a fairly good modifier to Hide. Around +40 at level 8 should be enough, shouldn't it?

If it isn't, I'll just drop the whole Darkness idea and use invisibility instead.

Related Question:

If you have Hide In Plain Sight (from the dark template) do you still need cover or concealment to hide or is being outside daylight enough?

[Segev]

Due to the way the game I'm in plays, I haven't had a chance to really use this tactic yet, but I have a character who has a Dragonfire Adept cohort with the Darkness invocation and blindsense. The character is a paladin with sunglasses of Darkvision and Ebon Sight, so he can see normally in the darkness his DFA cohort creates. The DFA cohort uses the immune-to-my-breath-weapon invocation on the paladin, and blindsense to identify the square his target is in. The paladin can see clearly in the darkness. Paladin and his cohort have 20% miss chance, their target gets no benefit.