Can unarmed fighters or Monks Use Shields without hinderance? Yay or Nay?

[Masakan]

as it says above.

[Troacctid]

Monks lose their unarmored AC bonus if they carry a shield.

[TheIronGolem]

as it says above.

Depends on what you mean by "hindrance".

Monks who wield shields can't flurry, and lose their movement and AC bonus. Also, monks don't get shield proficiency, so they take the shield's ACP as a penalty to attack and some skills (unless they get proficiency from another source).

An unarmed fighter has none of these problems, unless there are some ACF's in play that you haven't mentioned.

If you mean anything other than that, you'll need to be more specific with your question.

[Masakan]

Depends on what you mean by "hindrance".

Monks who wield shields can't flurry, and lose their movement and AC bonus. Also, monks don't get shield proficiency, so they take the shield's ACP as a penalty to attack and some skills (unless they get proficiency from another source).

An unarmed fighter has none of these problems, unless there are some ACF's in play that you haven't mentioned.

If you mean anything other than that, you'll need to be more specific with your question.

Ok say for some bizzare reason I wanted to make an unarmed fighter, and I wanted to get a shield to get some extra ac. I already know that I could use bucklers without problems as long as i get a feat for it. but beyond that...

Just for reference, My Wisdom is pretty low already, My character has innate speed anyway, and isnt there a feat called armored monk that allows me to flurry while using light armor anyway? or is that too homebrewy?

[Tokiko Mima]

Ok say for some bizzare reason I wanted to make an unarmed fighter, and I wanted to get a shield to get some extra ac. I already know that I could use bucklers without problems as long as i get a feat for it. but beyond that...

I see. You want Shield Block, I presume, because Face Block is USELESS. :p

There are plenty of ways to do what you want. My favorite is Karsite Warlock 5+/(Unarmed Variant) Swordsage 1+/Shadow Sun Ninja 1+ and taking Eldritch Claw and Beast Strike feats as soon as you can qualify for them.

Karsites give you everything humans normally get as well as Medium armor and all shield proficiencies, SR 10+level, and some other goodies (and LA +2, which hopefully you can buy off.)
Warlocks with Eldritch Claw+Beast Strike feats are a great combo for adding a ton of damage to an unarmed strike, and Elditch Blast being a true SLA means you can zap someone 60' away even inside armor without breaking a sweat.
UA Swordsage is handy because by acquiring Monk's Unarmed Strike feature, you get a host of miscellaneous benefits like being able to hit people with your knee or elbow, and buff your attack with your favorite selection of natural/manufactured weapon effects. You also get Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free.
SSN 1+ is awesome for pumping up your unarmed strike benefits with healing and touch attacks and other sneaky Monk stuff.

None of that nets you Monk's AC bonus, but if you're wearing armor and using a shield you shouldn't need it. The only restrictions on your armor will be invocations from warlock having ACF for armor heavier than Light, but remember you can cast them an unlimited number of times a day so pick ones with long durations. A full plate (Recommend Mithril material+Twilight Armor Quality) shield-wielding face puncher can be yours!


Just for reference, My Wisdom is pretty low already, My character has innate speed anyway, and isnt there a feat called armored monk that allows me to flurry while using light armor anyway? or is that too homebrewy?

Armored Monk is not a published feat to my knowledge, unless DnDwiki is a source that's allowed by your DM. DnDwiki is homebrew by definition. Lemme try and talk you out of Flurry of Blows though... it's not actually all that great. It requires a full attack action to work at all meaning you have to be standing within 5' of the creature at the start of the round. This means you sacrifice mobility to make it happen, making it much less useful. You take a -2 to all attacks, turning this into what some refer to as 'a flurry of misses.' If you want an extra attack, might I suggest a feat called Snap Kick, which does have the same penalty, but works on a standard or full-attack action?

[lord_khaine]

Armored Monk is not a published feat to my knowledge, unless DnDwiki is a source that's allowed by your DM. DnDwiki is homebrew by definition. Lemme try and talk you out of Flurry of Blows though... it's not actually all that great. It requires a full attack action to work at all meaning you have to be standing within 5' of the creature at the start of the round. This means you sacrifice mobility to make it happen, making it much less useful. You take a -2 to all attacks, turning this into what some refer to as 'a flurry of misses.' If you want an extra attack, might I suggest a feat called Snap Kick, which does have the same penalty, but works on a standard or full-attack action?

Yeah, but i would not listen to people who are just mindlessly jumping on the monk hate wagon. In almost all cases flurry of blows would lead to a net increase of hits, and the penalty does for that matter also get eliminated though levels.
Snap kick is a decent feat, but the bab requirement is rather high, and the ½ Str bit does hurt a bit unless you have an additional source of damage.

And if you just wanted some additional survivability then i would personally recomend this feat, http://dndtools.eu/feats/secrets-of-sarlona--14/tashalatora--3415/ and multiclass monk wth a fitting psionic class.

[Mato]

You take a -2 to all attacks, turning this into what some refer to as 'a flurry of misses.'Mathematically? Nope.

Say the bonus to attack is +20 vs AC 35.
None furry has a 25% chance to hit.
Furry has a 28% chance to hit at least once (odds 2% both hit, 26% one hits, and 72% both miss)
+3% more accurate with a 2% chance dealing double damage, excluding critical chances and natural 20s & 1s.

The same algorithms applies to the barbarian's whirling strike as well, except those penalties are never removed by leveling. If you ever have the option to use either, then do it.

[Tokiko Mima]

Yeah, but i would not listen to people who are just mindlessly jumping on the monk hate wagon. In almost all cases flurry of blows would lead to a net increase of hits, and the penalty does for that matter also get eliminated though levels.
Snap kick is a decent feat, but the bab requirement is rather high, and the ½ Str bit does hurt a bit unless you have an additional source of damage.

And if you just wanted some additional survivability then i would personally recomend this feat, http://dndtools.eu/feats/secrets-of-sarlona--14/tashalatora--3415/ and multiclass monk wth a fitting psionic class.

Mindlessly jumping on the monk hate wagon, you say? You say that as if to imply that it's not possible to articulate a well reasoned argument for why monks are suboptimal. I invite you to please google search this forum, there are literally thousands of very good arguments about why monk is regarded as *one* of the singularly worst classes in 3.5 in both design and implementation. This is not a new debate by any means.

I used to be like you, you know. I thought Monk was great! So many cool abilities, and the idea of being a fighter that didn't need weapons? That was awesome! But in actual practice in game sessions, it rarely played out that way. I wanted to know why. So I did some actual analysis, and let myself listen to both sides, then I came to the conclusion that, in fact, the critics were right on this one. They proved it to me through solid math and reasoned argument, so I had to let go of my unfounded belief that monks were a good class. So I guess this all means I'm on the monk hate wagon. You know what; I'm ok with that, because I am in good company here.

As for your suggestion, Tashalatora is a great feat for Monks that want to get into psionics. Not so great for OP's that want to be unarmed and use a shield.


Mathematically? Nope.

Say the bonus to attack is +20 vs AC 35.
None furry has a 25% chance to hit.
Furry has a 28% chance to hit at least once (odds 2% both hit, 26% one hits, and 72% both miss)
+3% more accurate with a 2% chance dealing double damage, excluding critical chances and natural 20s & 1s.

The same algorithms applies to the barbarian's whirling strike as well, except those penalties are never removed by leveling. If you ever have the option to use either, then do it.

What kind of furry math are you using? :smalltongue:

Yes, Flurry of Blows gets marginally better as you get more Monk levels.. but that's sort of the problem. More Monk levels.

Obviously, attack penalties hurt you less the higher the initial chance to hit. If you have a 95% chance to hit with one attack and do damage, taking a what equates to a 10% penalty and having two 85% chances to hit is way better. That works out to 97.75% chance to hit at least once, and a 72.25% for a double hit. If you have only a 15% chance to hit, or optionally two rolls with 5% chance of success, then you'd be silly to roll twice since the odds become 9.75% for at least a single hit, and .25% for a double hit.

Those are the extremes of course, and you would want to adjust for this. I do concede that in the situation where you are only have a single attack, or two attacks with a -10% penalty, you almost always want two attacks. It gets thornier when you add in multiple attacks from BAB progression, because those attacks will suffer much more from the penalty, and I think that's why the appellation of 'Flurry of Misses' became popular.

But the main points on Flurry of Blows are, (A) you can only flurry on a full attack. That's a huge limiting factor, because of the way combat works. If enemies aren't running directly for you, you will likely not be executing many full attacks. Enemies have little reason to prioritize monks when spellcasters and DPS are much juicier tactical targets. (B) In order for Flurry of Blows to be at it's best, you have to take a lot of Monk levels. Also a huge issue, especially considering other Monk issues like medium BAB and MAD make their attack bonus sub par even under good conditions.

Which is of course, why I advocate a build that can do touch attacks for very high (4d6 or more) unarmed strike damage as a standard action, then on the next round, heal themselves or others the same amount. I'd take that over trading full-attacks with monsters any day, Flurry of Blows or not.

[Gemini476]

The true reason for the Flurry of Misses being such a common meme (beyond the echo-chamber, that is) might be because being a Monk means being MAD and being MAD means that you hit less often.
Not to mention that the only Core way to get an enhancement bonus on your Unarmed Strike is the Amulet of Mighty Fists, which requires you to have either a Magic Mart, a DM who gives you items appropriate to the characters, or a crafter. Not all of those are available all the time, obviously.

Yes, at level 20 the Monk has a better attack sequence than the Rogue. However, 3/4th BAB mixed with four-stat MAD and how hard it is to get Unarmed Strikes enchanted easily give people the impression that they just don't hit that often.
This can be solved by getting buffed by a druid, but not every party with a monk also has a druid willing to cast Greater Magic Fang. Sadly.


Oh, and there's also the thing where the Two-Weapon Fighting Fighter gets more attacks at a higher attack bonus. Flurry only gives you two extra attacks, after all, and good BAB is just superior to average.
Compare the following:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
+15/+15/+15/+10/+5

Or the TWF Whirling Frenzy Barbarian, if you want a pretty decent ACF-monk.
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1
And that's just with one of the feats. Note how it's one point higher than the monk, even with the -4 penalty from combining Two-Weapon Fighting with Whirling Frenzy. (Which also gives +8 strength at that level, so it's actually more like +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5.)