How to deal with a hive mind?

[Baroknik]

So I'm about to board a plane, but have considered making a post-apocalyptic setting based on a Hivemind of rats a la the BoVD rules... If a Hivemind is made with the orders "grow and destroy" what is the critical mass before they are too powerful to challenge? Assume no epic magic or pun pun...

[Jack_Simth]

So I'm about to board a plane, but have considered making a post-apocalyptic setting based on a Hivemind of rats a la the BoVD rules... If a Hivemind is made with the orders "grow and destroy" what is the critical mass before they are too powerful to challenge? Assume no epic magic or pun pun...

It depends on:
The optimization of the hive mind
The optimization of the attacker(s)
The preparation of the hive mind
The preparation of the attacker(s)
The tactics of the hive mind
The tactics of the attacker(s)
The surrounding terrain
The hive mind's knowledge of it's attacker(s)
The attacker(s) knowledge of the hive mind
Who is (not) surprised

...

So really, there is no one threshhold for this. A poorly optimized Sorcerer-10,000 (which you can get with enough hive mind cheese) will fall to someone that figured out an infinite action trick, for instance.

[Phelix-Mu]

Note that, I believe it was Monte Cooke who worked on BoVD, who released a set of errata/updates for 3.5 (not sure if they were "official" or just his view on how things should change). Included therein was a brief mention of how the Hivemind rules as written were horribly unbalanced and could quickly lead toward hyperbolic levels of spellcasting ability, among other things. He suggested toning it down quite a bit, but I can't recall exactly how he suggested it be done.

That document also had a series of interesting comments on other areas of the BoVD which I really liked. Seems to me it was a .pdf or web content that was appended to the BoVD. Rather a tragedy of laptop turnover that my collection isn't quite what it used to be. *sigh* Perhaps someone else on this forum will furnish us with a link?:smallsmile:

[Baroknik]

Fair enough, but assuming an unoptimized character seems unlikely for the same reasons a high level wizard seems unoptimized: god level intellects....

Let's use a 2,000 member rat hive mind as our baseline. Seems pretty small to me (plenty of rats in a metropolis).

They would receive...
Int 45
Cha 42
Casting as a sorcerer 25
40 bonus feats


Now assuming epic casting is out, that seems like a potentially deicidal rat pack...


Edit:
Interesting on the Monte update, though my google-fu fails me... If there's no hard cap it doesn't stop the problem, just changes the numbers around. I've been thinking of doing some kind of diminishing returns curve (something like n-squared more rats added for each boost past 20 Int -- so 21 int takes 441 additional rats), but that seems to take a ramp that's a bit too fast...

[Phelix-Mu]

So, basically you demonstrate the problem. That rather simple example outclasses a bunch of PO wizards 20 in pretty much every field, and while the optimized wizard will have access to a bigger toolbox, the bad guy here has enough bonus feats to seriously lessen the gap, along with some of the other epic stuff that might be on the table (Improved Spell Capacity, Great Charisma, Spell Stowaway, etc). This fairly basic hivemind is a genuine threat to the entire city, and could probably seriously mess up a party that really wasn't totally in sync and optimized.

But, like pretty much all spellcaster npcs, the optimization level varies widely based on how resourceful and well-prepped the DM plays them. This is even more true given the fact that the rat hivemind has several choices in behavior that aren't available to pcs without spells (like the ability of the hivemind to spread out, resisting kill effects due to not being a single creature, etc).

[Baroknik]

So, basically you demonstrate the problem. That rather simple example outclasses a bunch of PO wizards 20 in pretty much every field, and while the optimized wizard will have access to a bigger toolbox, the bad guy here has enough bonus feats to seriously lessen the gap, along with some of the other epic stuff that might be on the table (Improved Spell Capacity, Great Charisma, Spell Stowaway, etc). This fairly basic hivemind is a genuine threat to the entire city, and could probably seriously mess up a party that really wasn't totally in sync and optimized.

But, like pretty much all spellcaster npcs, the optimization level varies widely based on how resourceful and well-prepped the DM plays them. This is even more true given the fact that the rat hivemind has several choices in behavior that aren't available to pcs without spells (like the ability of the hivemind to spread out, resisting kill effects due to not being a single creature, etc).

I kind of want it to be the insurmountable threat though. I see it as a quasi-deity that the PCs have no hope of fighting directly in the campaign setting. It will basically be a historical entity that left the main plane to search for greater power and returns every now and then to destroy progress.

I guess I'm more curious from a history standpoint of: at what point would it be insurmountable (if POed) for a level 20 POed party (assume no infinite looping -- my phone is dead soon so I'll come back to specify more on relative optimization level).

Also as an interesting point, could a POed hive mind at 5,000 threaten the Tippyverse?

Finally, what growth rate do you think is most appropriate to curtail a hivemind's power growth to reasonable?

[sleepyphoenixx]

The errata made swarms ineligible for normal Hiveminds and added a swarm-hivemind template.


Munchkin Alert!: Hivemind Overgod
Hivemind rules are developed before the swarm subtype,
so you might want to rule that hivemind is not
applicable to creatures with swarm subtype.
Sacremon noted that a swarm of fine creatures
“would make a hivemind capable of killing a small
pantheon of deities (Int 207, Cha 202, casts spells as a
level 185 sorcerer)”.
To make hivemind works with swarm subtypes, I
have designed a hivemind swarm template below.

Creating A Hivemind Swarm
A hivemind swarm is an acquired template which can
be applied to any animal swarm or vermin swarm,
hereafter referred to as base creature. Such swarms
form when its natural habitat has been corrupted by an
evil spiritual presence or dark blessing.
Type: Creature type change to magical beast.
Armor Class: A hivemind swarm gains +1 insight bonus.
Special Attack: A hivemind swarm gains the ability to
cast spells and vile strike.
Spells: A hivemind swarm can cast spells as a
sorcerer, whose level is half its HD (round-down).
Vile Strike (Ex): Half of the hp damage dealt by its
swarm attack is vile damage.
Special Qualities: As a magical beast, a hivemind
swarm also gains darkvision 60 ft. and low-light vision.
Abilities: Int +4, Cha +10 + ¼ HD.
Skills: Recalculate skill points for increased Intelligence.
Feats: A hivemind swarm gains Eschew Materials as a
bonus feat. If the base creature is originally mindless,
it also gains 1 feat plus 1 feat per 3 HD.
•
•
Challenge Rating: As base creature +1.
Alignment: Always evil.
Advancement: By character class (sorcerer).
Level Adjustment: -

Otherwise your limited to how many creatures you can cram into an area and still have them all within 10 feet from each other. Going by that hiveminds were never intended to grow into epic threats.

[Baroknik]

The errata made swarms ineligible for normal Hiveminds and added a swarm-hivemind template.



Creating A Hivemind Swarm
A hivemind swarm is an acquired template which can
be applied to any animal swarm or vermin swarm,
hereafter referred to as base creature. Such swarms
form when its natural habitat has been corrupted by an
evil spiritual presence or dark blessing.
Type: Creature type change to magical beast.
Armor Class: A hivemind swarm gains +1 insight bonus.
Special Attack: A hivemind swarm gains the ability to
cast spells and vile strike.
Spells: A hivemind swarm can cast spells as a
sorcerer, whose level is half its HD (round-down).
Vile Strike (Ex): Half of the hp damage dealt by its
swarm attack is vile damage.
Special Qualities: As a magical beast, a hivemind
swarm also gains darkvision 60 ft. and low-light vision.
Abilities: Int +4, Cha +10 + ¼ HD.
Skills: Recalculate skill points for increased Intelligence.
Feats: A hivemind swarm gains Eschew Materials as a
bonus feat. If the base creature is originally mindless,
it also gains 1 feat plus 1 feat per 3 HD.
•
•
Challenge Rating: As base creature +1.
Alignment: Always evil.
Advancement: By character class (sorcerer).
Level Adjustment: -

Otherwise your limited to how many creatures you can cram into an area and still have them all within 10 feet from each other. Going by that hiveminds were never intended to grow into epic threats.

I was using swarm there just to mean a large amount, not the subtype. From the example it would appear the initial formation is the 10ft range, but not for additions, since it has 500 member hive minds as an example. Additionally since they are all in joined awareness, one member as part of another hive mind should combine the two into a single hive mind through that link.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Also as an interesting point, could a POed hive mind at 5,000 threaten the Tippyverse?

I would say absolutely not considering NI cl is obtainable through several tricks, NI feats via DCS, and NI ability scores are also obtainable with enough optimization and that is everything offered by the hive mind I believe.

[Phelix-Mu]

I would say absolutely not considering NI cl is obtainable through several tricks, NI feats via DCS, and NI ability scores are also obtainable with enough optimization and that is everything offered by the hive mind I believe.

Alas, for they errata'd baleful polymorph. I cried. Well, sort of. Definitely was sad to see the potential behind swarms of super-tough kittens go away in a puff of official rewriting.

But, generally, Tippyverse wins through proliferation of high-level tricks, like a very large number of IAs of 20th level warforged psions that have all been subjected to psy chirurgery and now have access to all powers and all spells as powers (as StP erudite). PaO them into blocks of granite and build your buildings out of 20th level psions.

See? Swarm of rats hivemind is cute. City made of psions straight up trumps it.

[Baroknik]

Isn't the problem that all of those tricks could be replicated by a hive mind as well? NI spell slots of NI spell level are available as well. I suppose it wouldn't be hard to counter though. The biggest problem with hive mind is all individuals in it possess 1 or fewer HD, so they get screwed by plenty of spells.

Edit: just read the vermin lord PrC and noticed its capstone... Losing 9th level spells is rough, but getting to control/be part of a hive mind seems awesome. Anyone know of a way to gain back that one more level of casting? (The PrC is 6/10)

[Seer_of_Heart]

Isn't the problem that all of those tricks could be replicated by a hive mind as well? NI spell slots of NI spell level are available as well. I suppose it wouldn't be hard to counter though. The biggest problem with hive mind is all individuals in it possess 1 or fewer HD, so they get screwed by plenty of spells.

Edit: just read the vermin lord PrC and noticed its capstone... Losing 9th level spells is rough, but getting to control/be part of a hive mind seems awesome. Anyone know of a way to gain back that one more level of casting? (The PrC is 6/10)

Those tricks probably fall outside the limit of PO for most people.

You could play a dragonwrought kobold with loredrake and the greater ritual. That gives you three free sorcerer levels. Alternatively a hatchling pharenmn(do not know spelling) gets free sorcerer levels equal to its HD.

[Phelix-Mu]

Those tricks probably fall outside the limit of PO for most people.

You could play a dragonwrought kobold with loredrake and the greater ritual. That gives you three free sorcerer levels. Alternatively a hatchling phaerimm gets free sorcerer levels equal to its HD.

There you go.