[Pathfinder] How Do Double Barreled Pistols Work (And Other Similar Questions)

[Jarred Stone]

Greetings, I am currently DMing a "common place guns" setting. More like a steampunk approach to fantasy where magic is more occultist stuff and almost anyone has a gun or a rapier under his belt.

Anyways, I was looking through the aviable guns in Pathfinder and I noticed the double barreled muskets and pistols. English is not my first language and, at first, I readed that, when firing the two barrels at once, you spent a standard action and -4 to hit in order to have one more dice in the attack roll (almost like Star Wars Saga when multibarreled weapons). But, then, after reading the descryption again, I was able to see it wasn't like that. So, what it is the real interpretation?

A)You fire both as a single attack, -4 to hit and one more damage dice to the attack roll. You deal, for example 2d8 instead of 1d8 in case of the pistol; plus the typical extra damage you would deal with one single attack.
B)You fire both as a standard action, -4 to hit and they are two DIFFERENT attacks. You have to roll both of the to see which hits and extra damage like Smite Evil is applied to both of them.
C)You fire both as a full-round action, -4 to hit and they are two DIFFERENT attacks which are rolled independtly.

Apart of that, in your experience, which interpretation would be better? Rapid shot would be useless for option C but damage would insanely scale up for options A and B. In fact, with A and B you woud be totally doubling damage with such a pistol. Is that how is it supposed to work the class? Because, in that case, I see the revolver plain stupid when rapid reload, paper cartridger appears and the correct archetype appeas.

Last question would be, is it me or the double barreled shotgun is totally broken? For any inted or style of gunslinger, the double barreled shotgun is the best choice (and the most expensive, yes) and, ironically, can snipe better than any other weapon in the game. I would say the rifle is insanely more accurate but, let's face it, 40' is considered "sniping" in this game (look at the sniper archetype for the rogue) and, is both shots lands, it would deal 4d8 points of damage... against the 1d10 of the rifle. I think it breaks a little the fluff of a shotgun breaking doors at meele range but useless at medium range. Your thought, guys? Should I ban them?

[Sayt]

By RAW, it's answer B).

And yeah, this lets you unload a lot of damage when you're rapid-shot, dual wielding double barreled pistols and unloading all barrels.

At 6+ Bab, sure you get the equivalent of 10 attacks otherwise, but it costs a minimum of 110gp per round, so they're effectively hemorrhaging their wealth by level out the muzzles of their guns, and that's assuming they're quick-drawing new pistols for each attack them make. With paper cartridges, it gets even more expensive. They're also taking a -10 to their attacks (-4 for both barrels recoil, -4 TWFing with not light weapons and -2 rapid shotting), and then a bigger penalty if they want to use deadly aim for some flat damage.

[grarrrg]

B)You fire both as a standard action, -4 to hit and they are two DIFFERENT attacks. You have to roll both of the to see which hits and extra damage like Smite Evil is applied to both of them.

It does not specify a Standard Action:
"each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action."
ANY time you could fire one of the barrels you can instead fire both.

As for Attack Rolls, I've always assumed that it works like Manyshot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat---final), you only make one attack roll and if it hits then both shots hit.

[Sayt]

The double barrel pistol rules state that you take a -4 'on each shot', implying, to me at least, you roll twice, but you're right about it not specififying the type of action.

[grarrrg]

The double barrel pistol rules state that you take a -4 'on each shot', implying, to me at least, you roll twice

As worded you are probably correct, but saying "it works like Manyshot" answers a bunch of follow-up questions right away.

[AvatarVecna]

Double-barreled weapons can get ridiculous DPS. An optimized character can get up to 18 attacks all going against touch AC. It's hardly OP, since it's not spellcasting, but within that touch radius, you can take down a surprisingly high number of creatures quickly and efficiently.

[Jarred Stone]

Double-barreled weapons can get ridiculous DPS. An optimized character can get up to 18 attacks all going against touch AC. It's hardly OP, since it's not spellcasting, but within that touch radius, you can take down a surprisingly high number of creatures quickly and efficiently.

My players tend to be more biased towards the martial side of the different classes so, when comparing among other classes, I compare gunslinger with the other martials and semimartials. Anyways, at level 6, you can get 10 attacks in one round. How can that be less powerful than a barbarian or a warrior? With medium pistols he can make around 95 of damage at level 6, just adding the basic modifiers of weapon damage and dextrery damage.

And, of course, the most important question. What is the point of revolvers, if they are worse than the archaic pistol?


EDIT: If you can reload as free action with rapid reload and alchemical cartridges, what is the point of this deed?

Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

[Sayt]

Alchemical cartriges make is slightly more likely that your gun will explode!

They're also a little more expensive.


Revolvers have a greater range and require less tricks to get full attacks, and resolve against touch ac within five range increments, rather than one.

Gunslingers can be countered by getting up in their faces with feats like Step up and Strike, which denies them the ability to escape and attack, or by staying out of their first range increment, which denies them the accuracy boost of targeting touch AC, and suddenly the 'slinger is eating a -10 to hit against ACs which are 10-20 points higher than they used to be.

[grarrrg]

EDIT: If you can reload as free action with rapid reload and alchemical cartridges, what is the point of this deed?

Lightning Reload (Ex):

What Sayt said mainly that cartridges are more expensive than Pellet/Powder, and the extra misfire chance of paper cartridges.

Plus the fact that Paizo doesn't understand their own game at times:
"Alright, so we'll make Free Action reloads possible, but you'll need a Feat, and you'll have to spend extra money on each shot, and we'll do it for Muskets too, but only if you take a certain archetype. That way the 'optimizers' can have their Full Attacks, and everyone else will still get their guns"
Playerbase:
"Free Action reloads WOOOO!!!!!"

[I3igAl]

My players tend to be more biased towards the martial side of the different classes so, when comparing among other classes, I compare gunslinger with the other martials and semimartials. Anyways, at level 6, you can get 10 attacks in one round. How can that be less powerful than a barbarian or a warrior? With medium pistols he can make around 95 of damage at level 6, just adding the basic modifiers of weapon damage and dextrery damage.

And, of course, the most important question. What is the point of revolvers, if they are worse than the archaic pistol?

Gunslinger Weaknesses
1. It costs lots of gold, therefore you should normally hold back.
2. One needs a hand free to reload, therefore you need Quickdraw+Weapon Chords or other tricks to work. There is an FAQ advising to limit this. Otherwise it's 4 shots, than over.
3. A level 6 Human Gunslinger has 5 Feats if I'm counting correctly. Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Rapid Reload, that's all your Feats at lvl 7. You'll "only" get 8 shots at lvl 6, ulness I messed up somwhere.
4. Concealment can be highly annoying, like being a human in low light environment like a dungeon.
5. You get forced into melee, you get quite weak. That's highly annoying considering you need to be at 30ft.
6. Most martials deal more than enough damage in PF. Even if the Gunslinger outdamages them, it often is just overkill, especially vs large groups of weak monsters, he would be better of with more utility.
The Gunslinger does his job(damage) quite well, but he isn't straight up better than lets say a Barbarian.



Revolvers are great, if you don't play with Weapon Chord/Glove of Storing tricks, they are really useful. A dual wielding Revolver guy still gets 5 Attacks per round with the same build. He can keep shooting for two-full rounds before he needs to Reload. You save lots of money not needing that many Alchemical Carttridges.

[grarrrg]

2. One needs a hand free to reload, therefore you need Quickdraw+Weapon Chords or other tricks to work. There is an FAQ advising to limit this. Otherwise it's 4 shots, than over.

Weapon Cords got FAQ-nerfed to a Move Action now. But even when they were a Swift you never needed Quickdraw.
Now the 'preferred' method is Quickdraw+Gun Twirling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/grit-feats/gun-twirling-grit).

And there's always the good ole option of dipping Alchemist for 2 levels and just growing a 3rd arm.


5. You get forced into melee, you get quite weak. That's highly annoying considering you need to be at 30ft.

Not arguing the in-your-face problem, but the 30ft.
Pistols are generally good til only 20ft. Muskets out to 40ft.
Distance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/distance) is only a +1 cost for double range increments.
And depending on your build, Luring Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/luring-cavalier) for 3 levels lets you target Touch AC out to 2 range increments.

As for what to do in melee range...I would generally advise against Pistol Whip.
Point-Blank Master or Deft Shootist feats are options, but the first requires Fighter 4, Ranger 6 or Zen Archer Monk 3, and the later needs Dodge+Mobility.
Honestly, your best option for forced-melee range is to have a backup weapon. You ARE still a Full Bab, all Martial Profs class after all.