Duskblade/Swashbuckler Gestalt?

[Justicar]

I'm thinking of making a Duskblade/Swashbuckler Gestalt. I believe there is some synergy there since Duskblade is an Intelligence-based spellcaster and Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike allows me to add Intelligence modifer to weapon damage rolls, in addition to Strength.

As such, should I stay with the basic Swashbuckler or Shielf of Blades variant? What would be a good prestige class to go with this gestalt? Any other advice would be grantly appreciated. Thank you.

[CryptbornAkryea]

What race are you thinking?

[Pluto!]

What does Swashbuckler do here that Factotum doesn't?

Insightful strike doesn't have great synergy with Duskblade because damage bonuses like making lots of attacks, and for most of Duskblade's career, it likes making single attacks per round. Add the limit to Finesse weapons, the redundant chassis and the Swashbuckler's general lack of class features, and I think you get a pretty bad mix.

[Justicar]

What does Swashbuckler do here that Factotum doesn't?

Insightful strike doesn't have great synergy with Duskblade because damage bonuses like making lots of attacks, and for most of Duskblade's career, it likes making single attacks per round. Add the limit to Finesse weapons, the redundant chassis and the Swashbuckler's general lack of class features, and I think you get a pretty bad mix.

Mostly because Dungeonscape isn't among the allowed books. If it helps, there are the books that DM is allowing material:

Complete Adventurer (minus Spellthief)
Complete Arcane
Complete Champion
Complete Divine
Complete Mage
Complete Psionic
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Warrior

Expanded Psionics
Magic of Incarnum
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords
Tome of Magic
Cityscape
PHB 2 (i do not consider this core)

Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
PF core rulebook for (spells, magic items, races, and feats)

Note: The DM wants variety, so he is disallowed PHB 1 core classes, although variants of those classes are allowed as long as they aren't drawn from Dragon Magazine.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going to agree that this combination is going to be severely lacking. The two classes just don't have any synergy, with Dusk Blade making single attacks and Swashbuckler being most beneficial with TWF full attacks. Plus their chassis are completely redundant.

Switch to something like Dusk Blade 13/ whatever 7// Wizard + PrCs 20. Get Versatile Spellcaster and you can spend Dusk Blade spell slots to spontaneously cast situational Wizard spells you've picked up. Take Eidetic Spellcaster if you don't want to worry about a spellbook. Definitely take Spell Focus: Transmutation and Ability Enhancer if available, so Bulls Strength adds +6 and Animalistic Power adds +4's. I'd go something like the following:

1. Wizard 1// Dusk Blade 1
2. Wizard 2// Human Paragon 1
3. Human Paragon 2// Dusk Blade 2
4. Human Paragon 3// Dusk Blade 3
5. Spellsword 1// Dusk Blade 4
6. Wizard 3// Spellsword 2
7. Spellsword 3// Dusk Blade 5
8. Wizard 4// Spellsword 4
9. Spellsword 5// Dusk Blade 6
10. Wizard 5// Spellsword 6
11. Incantatrix 1// Dusk Blade 7
12. Incantatrix 2// Dusk Blade 8
13. Incantatrix 3// Dusk Blade 9
14. Incantatrix 4// Dusk Blade 10
15. Incantatrix 5// Dusk Blade 11
16. Incantatrix 6// Dusk Blade 12
17. Incantatrix 7// Dusk Blade 13
18. Incantatrix 8// Dusk Blade 14
19. Incantatrix 9// Dusk Blade 15
20. Incantatrix 10// Dusk Blade 16

That gets full BAB, Wizard 20 spellcasting, Dusk Blade 16 spellcasting, you can channel a non-touch spell into your weapon to be released on your next attack 4/day (Cloudkill deals 1d4 Con damage/round for ten rounds/level), and amazing metamagic shenanigans from Incantatrix. Note that if you don't care for the overpowered, game-breaking Incantatrix you can replace it with any ten levels that advance Wizard spellcasting. You can even continue the pattern of Spellsword 7,9// Dusk Blade X and Wizard X// Spellsword 8,10, though I honestly wouldn't bother with the tenth level of that. Good choices to replace Incantatix include Mage of the Arcane Order, Paragnostic Apostle, Abjurant Champion, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Archmage.

[Justicar]

Again. Wizard isn't allowed. None of the Core Classes from PHB 1 is unless it is a variant from one of the allowed books. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Again. Wizard isn't allowed. None of the Core Classes from PHB 1 is unless it is a variant from one of the allowed books. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Just replace the Wizard levels with Wu-Jen, then, and be sure to get six levels in it instead of stopping at 5th. Your spell list will be considerably different, but note the following from Spell Compendium page 4: "Wu Jen (Complete Arcane): Add spells with element (except air), wood, and metal themes." Basically anything in SC with a fire, earth, water, wood, or metal theme gets added to the Wu-Jen spell list.

[Kennisiou]

You know what could be really interesting here? Duskblade/Arcane Archer//Full caster. I'm serious. The biggest problem with both duskblade and arcane archer that keeps them from being really strong is lack of a strong casting list. Gestalt can fix that and lets both classes really shine. You can output heavy ranged or melee damage by channeling spells through both forms of attack and can provide tons of utility with your leftover spells. It seems like it could be a cool gestalt. Alternately you could go duskblade 20//ranger x/Arcane Archer 10/choice class x. Ranger X to get some of the feats you need out of the way. Fighter x also applicable. This build gets fewer powerful spells and less versatility, but is also probably more in line with what you were looking to do originally with swashbuckler/duskblade, which appeared to be being a warrior first and a caster second.

Heck, if you aren't too attached to the idea of spells as a tool for versatility and only want them as a tool for damage, gestalt warmage on the other side and let duskblade cover some of the basic utility spells.

[Justicar]

Just replace the Wizard levels with Wu-Jen, then, and be sure to get six levels in it instead of stopping at 5th. Your spell list will be considerably different, but note the following from Spell Compendium page 4: "Wu Jen (Complete Arcane): Add spells with element (except air), wood, and metal themes." Basically anything in SC with a fire, earth, water, wood, or metal theme gets added to the Wu-Jen spell list.

Sounds interesting, but when it was run by the DM, he responded "please note that i still believe the you should not be able to have a class constantly moving around among the sides". So the switching of Human Paragon/Spellsword between Wizard/Wu Jen and Duskblade is being being frowned upon.


You know what could be really interesting here? Duskblade/Arcane Archer//Full caster. I'm serious. The biggest problem with both duskblade and arcane archer that keeps them from being really strong is lack of a strong casting list. Gestalt can fix that and lets both classes really shine. You can output heavy ranged or melee damage by channeling spells through both forms of attack and can provide tons of utility with your leftover spells. It seems like it could be a cool gestalt. Alternately you could go duskblade 20//ranger x/Arcane Archer 10/choice class x. Ranger X to get some of the feats you need out of the way. Fighter x also applicable. This build gets fewer powerful spells and less versatility, but is also probably more in line with what you were looking to do originally with swashbuckler/duskblade, which appeared to be being a warrior first and a caster second.

Heck, if you aren't too attached to the idea of spells as a tool for versatility and only want them as a tool for damage, gestalt warmage on the other side and let duskblade cover some of the basic utility spells.

That does sound interesting as well. Do you know a good non-Dragon Magazine variant for Ranger or Fighter I could use?

[Grod_The_Giant]

That does sound interesting as well. Do you know a good non-Dragon Magazine variant for Ranger or Fighter I could use?
How much variant do we need to be legal?

[Justicar]

How much variant do we need to be legal?

I honestly don't know. He's approved a Thug (Fighter Variant from Unearthed Arcana) for another player, but turned down one of my ideas because it used Sentinel and Solitary Hunter, because they were Dragon Magazine-based variants. As far as I can tell, if it is in one of the approved books, go hogwild.

[deuxhero]

Warblade//Psion is considered one of the strongest gestalts out there and completely open to you.

[Klarth]

Well there's Martial Rogue from Unearthed Arcana that trades sneak attack for fighter feats. You also get a nice bump to skills and reflex save.

[Svata]

No need to worry about Wu Jen. You can still go wizard, and use the build given above, it just has to be a variant, right? Unearthed Arcana, Page 57. Domain Wizard. Its a non-dragon variant class, so you should be able to use it.

[Gwendol]

And if that's still not accepted you can pick one of the fixed spell-list casters (Beguiler, Warmage, Necro).

[Justicar]

No need to worry about Wu Jen. You can still go wizard, and use the build given above, it just has to be a variant, right? Unearthed Arcana, Page 57. Domain Wizard. Its a non-dragon variant class, so you should be able to use it.

The biggest problem with that buid for DM is the crossing of core/prestige classes, i.e. going from Spellsword/Dusk Blade for one level and Spellsword/Wizard the next. Honestly, the Duskblade/Arcane Archer concept sounds kinda intriguing. Maybe if I use either the Non-Spellcasting Ranger/Planar Ranger or Elusive Attack/Overpowering Figher, I guess...

[Kennisiou]

Right, no PHB without variants... Well you could do a feat rogue to get the feats (rogue that gets fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack). Would probably work out pretty okay, actually, since you get your BaB and HP from the duskblade side of the gestalt and feat rogue's extra skill points and class skills will be useful. Duskblade 20//Feat Rogue X/Arcane Archer 10/Choice Prestige X, with feat rogue being taken for as long as necessary until you get to arcane archer.

Alternately, beguiler and warmage are both good choices for giving you another spell list full of goodies to exploit with duskblade and arcane archer. For the duskblade 10/arcane archer 10//full caster 20 version of the build those two are probably your coolest options. Wu Jen is definitely the most powerful.

[Justicar]

I'm kinda torn between the Duskblade/Feat Rogue (for the skills and abilities) and Duskblade/Warmage (Spells and abilities) with Arcane Archer later. If I go with the latter, I am tempted to stay more Duskblade than Warmage since, at lvl 13, the Duskblade gets Arcane channeling (full attack). In order to get Arcane Archer, I'll have to go either Elf or Half-Elf and my first three FEATs are spoken for (Point Blank Shot , Precise Shot , Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow)), but seems simple enough from there...

[Justicar]

Okay... The DM wants to use Pathfinder races and point buy system. With 20 points, how should I distribute them? Intelligence is the most important if I want to have access to all of the Warmage spells. I believe I need decent Strength and Dexterity for the Duskblade/Arcane Archer. I believe I'm going with Half-Elf, which gives me +2 to a single stat.

Are there any good FEATs that allow ability substition for attack rolls?

[lytokk]

If you're still looking for variant rangers for use, I believe non-spellcasting is an appropriate variant. Its in the complete warrior. The only problem with ranger is you're going to need to always be in light armor, otherwise you no longer have the feats needed for arcane archer. Of course if you're using your archery strongly you'll prb stay light anyway.

[Gwendol]

I think Duskblade/Arcane Archer//Warmage/Sandshaper will be a lot of fun.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sounds interesting, but when it was run by the DM, he responded "please note that i still believe the you should not be able to have a class constantly moving around among the sides". So the switching of Human Paragon/Spellsword between Wizard/Wu Jen and Duskblade is being being frowned upon.

There's no such thing as a 'side' in gestalt, it's just an easy way to illustrate what your character gains from a given class on a given level. A level of Wu-Jen//Human Paragon is no different from a level of Human Paragon//Wu-Jen. It would be the same thing if it was written Spellsword 6// Duskblade 1/ Wizard 1/ Duskblade 1/ Wizard 1/ Duskblade 1/ Wizard 1, it's just easy to keep track of how many levels advance Wizard casting when you line them up together.

[Justicar]

There's no such thing as a 'side' in gestalt, it's just an easy way to illustrate what your character gains from a given class on a given level. A level of Wu-Jen//Human Paragon is no different from a level of Human Paragon//Wu-Jen. It would be the same thing if it was written Spellsword 6// Duskblade 1/ Wizard 1/ Duskblade 1/ Wizard 1/ Duskblade 1/ Wizard 1, it's just easy to keep track of how many levels advance Wizard casting when you line them up together.

I'm aware of that. Just repeating the reason he turned down someone else's build.

[Pluto!]

I really like Archivist opposite Duskblade in Gestalt, and Psion is as powerful as ever.

If the full caster route isn't for you, Feat Rogue, Psychic Rogue and Lurk can all be fun and relatively synergistic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I really like Archivist opposite Duskblade in Gestalt, and Psion is as powerful as ever.

If the full caster route isn't for you, Feat Rogue, Psychic Rogue and Lurk can all be fun and relatively synergistic.

Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) is indeed a superb choice, regardless of what books you own. It lets you get all the spells (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1023251) and its class features are good enough to stick with it until 11th level.

[Justicar]

So the DM is using PF races and point-buy. I have 20 points. Since it lookes like I'm going with Half-Elf Duskblade/Warmage/Arcane Archer, I'm thinking Int 18 (with the racial +2), Str 14, Dex 14 and the rest 10. Is there a more optimal stat array? I'll need an Int of 19 at some point to get access to all of the War Mage's spells. Str and Dex are needed for the more martial portion and AC. Any suggestions on how to improve this, ie FEATs, different arrays, etc?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So the DM is using PF races and point-buy. I have 20 points. Since it lookes like I'm going with Half-Elf Duskblade/Warmage/Arcane Archer, I'm thinking Int 18 (with the racial +2), Str 14, Dex 14 and the rest 10. Is there a more optimal stat array? I'll need an Int of 19 at some point to get access to all of the War Mage's spells. Str and Dex are needed for the more martial portion and AC. Any suggestions on how to improve this, ie FEATs, different arrays, etc?

Warmage spellcasting is Cha-based, you need Cha 19 to get 9th level Warmage spells. Int is only useful for adding extra damage to your Warmage spells, and it doesn't benefit spells from other classes.

Arcane Archer is pretty bad past the 2nd level. Its greatest class feature is made completely obsolete by Greater Magic Weapon, since enhancement bonuses on arrows don't stack with the enhancement bonus of your bow. If you're going to take AA, only get two levels of it unless your group house rules it to work like it did in 3.0 when it was at least moderately useful.

[Justicar]

Warmage spellcasting is Cha-based, you need Cha 19 to get 9th level Warmage spells. Int is only useful for adding extra damage to your Warmage spells, and it doesn't benefit spells from other classes.

Arcane Archer is pretty bad past the 2nd level. Its greatest class feature is made completely obsolete by Greater Magic Weapon, since enhancement bonuses on arrows don't stack with the enhancement bonus of your bow. If you're going to take AA, only get two levels of it unless your group house rules it to work like it did in 3.0 when it was at least moderately useful.

Good catch, sir. Duskblade's spells were Int-based, so I assumed Warmage was as well. So... if I want to be able to use all of my spells, I'll need an Int of 15 and Cha of 19...

You'll have to remind me. How is 3.0 AA different from the 3.5 AA?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Good catch, sir. Duskblade's spells were Int-based, so I assumed Warmage was as well. So... if I want to be able to use all of my spells, I'll need an Int of 15 and Cha of 19...

You'll have to remind me. How is 3.0 AA different from the 3.5 AA?

In 3.0, using +5 arrows with a +5 bow would give you +10 to attack and damage. In 3.5, those don't stack, +5 arrows with a +5 bow is only +5 to attack and damage, the same as +0 arrows with a +5 bow. Greater Magic Weapon gives you a +5 bow for a 3rd level spell slot, and you can (Lesser Rod of) Extend it so it lasts all day.

[Justicar]

In 3.0, using +5 arrows with a +5 bow would give you +10 to attack and damage. In 3.5, those don't stack, +5 arrows with a +5 bow is only +5 to attack and damage, the same as +0 arrows with a +5 bow. Greater Magic Weapon gives you a +5 bow for a 3rd level spell slot, and you can (Lesser Rod of) Extend it so it lasts all day.

Hmm.... Interesting. You still get some nice special features with the class, but I can see you point about enhancement bonuses. Quick question: Since the DM seems to be borrowing from PF a bit, what's PF's take on arrow/weapon enhancements? I've never played a PF game before, so I'm a tad unfamilar with the changes from that system.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hmm.... Interesting. You still get some nice special features with the class, but I can see you point about enhancement bonuses. Quick question: Since the DM seems to be borrowing from PF a bit, what's PF's take on arrow/weapon enhancements? I've never played a PF game before, so I'm a tad unfamilar with the changes from that system.

Same for PF:
The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons)

If you want to do ranged attacks, consider including Scout and use Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) to add skirmish damage to multiple attacks after moving. Some sort of Swift Hunter build of Scout/Ranger gestalt with Archivist would actually be ideal, since divine casters are traditionally the best archers ever, especially Archivist as it can learn Ranger spells. You can use Planar Ranger or Urban Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantPlanarRan ger) or Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) since vanilla PHB classes are banned.

[Justicar]

Hmm... Maybe I should just drop Arcane Archer. As cool as the concept is, Duskblade/Warmage/Arcane Archer basically requires four decent stats (Cha, Int, Str and Dex) to be effective. While possible with a really lucky stat roll, we're using point-buy of 20 and I can't see it being pulled off.

What would be another good prestige class to go with Duskblade/Warmage then?

[Justicar]

Well, compared a list of prestige classes to the allowed books and I think I've narrowed it down to: Abjurant Champion, Argent Savant, Bladesinger, and Master Specialist. If you have any suggestions or alternate allowed prestige classes that would work with a Duskblade/Warmage, please let me know.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well, compared a list of prestige classes to the allowed books and I think I've narrowed it down to: Abjurant Champion, Argent Savant, Bladesinger, and Master Specialist. If you have any suggestions or alternate allowed prestige classes that would work with a Duskblade/Warmage, please let me know.

Only a specialist Wizard can take Master Specialist.

You're going to need Str, Con, Cha, and Int regardless, so consider gaining a template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp) as you level up. You don't have to take your template levels in uninterrupted succession (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a), and Half-Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a) or Half-Fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) (or both!) give you bonuses to the ability scores you need.

I'd go with the following:
1. Warmage 1// Duskblade 1
2. Warmage 2// Half-Dragon 1
3. Warmage 3// Duskblade 2
4. Warmage 4// Half-Dragon 2
5. Warmage 5// Duskblade 3
6. Abjurant Champion 1// Half-Dragon 3
7. Abjurant Champion 2// Half-Fiend 1
8. Abjurant Champion 3// Half-Fiend 2
9. Abjurant Champion 4// Half-Fiend 3
10. Abjurant Champion 5// Half-Fiend 4

At 11th-20th, I would actually go Warmage//Suel Arcanamach for ten levels, that would at least get you access to some proper buffs so you'll be better at melee. This also makes Int far less important, you can start out with it at 10 and it will go to 16 from your templates. Otherwise go with a ten level prestige class that advances Warmage with ten more levels of Duskblade. Ideally that Warmage prestige class should somehow give you access to additional spells, such as Mage of the Arcane Order or Rainbow Servant adapted to Phoenix Servant or similar (the text overrides the table when the two disagree per the core errata, and the text says all ten of its levels increase spellcasting). You'll need to take Arcane Preparation to be able to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor anyway, so Mage of the Arcane Order is an obvious choice.