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View Full Version : Drilbus, force dragons, decanters of endless water



Illiterate Scribe
2007-02-22, 05:00 AM
Right, seeing the other thread about science, I’ve been thinking about a theory from the WotC boards - the one which involved making an object fall through a contained vacuum through teleportation circles to get an arbitrarily high speed. It does, however, require the definition of several points -

1. How long does a teleportation circle take to transport from one place to another? Specifically, is the travel instantaneous?

2. Can the entry and exit points be coterminous?

3. Can anything wear down a creature of force?

4. If someone traps themself in an infinite time loop in the past, and I then travel back to them, how many loops have they made?

Da Plan

My character creates a drilbu of time regression with 1 charge remaining. When he manifests Time Regression from the drilbu, it does not cost him XP (the XP cost was paid when the drilbu was created). It also does not use up the charge from the wand (well, it does, but the charge is restored when the power takes effect). This is because the charge disappears when the power is manifested, but all events in that round (except the XP cost, which is circumvented by using a drilbu) are undone. Essentially, the wielder of the drilbu can manifest Time Regression at will.

I then use an epic spell/psionic power to permanently enslave a great wyrm force dragon to my will. I give it the drilbu, a scroll of teleportation circle, and a decanter of endless water, and tell it to go back to a predetermined area of ‘safe time’ (one round’s worth, where it will not be disturbed or, if possible, observed), and cast the ‘permanencied’ teleportation circle on its tail (so that it becomes part of it, and hence regresses with the dragon), making the exit point exactly the same as the entry point (2). It is then to hold the decanter of endless water above the teleportation circle that it has created, and use the drilbu again every round, to infinity (3). If the plan works, the water will be held in stasis, as it hits the circle, is teleported back into it, and phases into and out of the circle incredibly quickly (1). Since it is only in the circle for an infinitely small amount of time, an infinite amount of water can be in it, as it will never encounter any other water to push it out.

I then travel back to the dragon, which has now been pouring out water for an infinite amount of time (4) (or at least, an arbitrary amount of time, since time is progressing for me in relation to the universe at an infinitely higher rate, 1 round of my time:1 round of real time, whereas he will only progress 1 round of real time for the rest of his infinite life), and order him to dispel the circle, which he can do automatically as a free action since he cast it. The infinite amount of water then has nowhere to go - it will encounter an infinite amount of other water, thus either turning the Prime Material Plane into the Elemental Plane of Water or creating a black hole, which with its infinite mass and thus infinitely strong and infinitely far reaching gravitational field, will destroy everything.

Thank you in advance for your advice.
EDIT: improved readability

Rigeld2
2007-02-22, 07:30 AM
My character creates a drilbu of time regression with 1 charge remaining. When he manifests Time Regression from the drilbu, it does not cost him XP (the XP cost was paid when the drilbu was created). It also does not use up the charge from the wand (well, it does, but the charge is restored when the power takes effect). This is because the charge disappears when the power is manifested, but all events in that round (except the XP cost, which is circumvented by using a drilbu) are undone. Essentially, the wielder of the drilbu can manifest Time Regression at will.
I think this is where it breaks down - I'm not sure it works. I'll have to do some research.

Dark
2007-02-22, 08:10 AM
What makes you think that the teleportation circle will hold an arbitrary amount of water? What you've described is a circle that will, in zero time, transport the water to exactly the same place it was already. That's the same thing as nothing happening at all. Personally, I often take zero time to not move at all, and it doesn't seem to do anything strange :)

Point the second, why doesn't the water regress along with everything else? Come to think of it, why doesn't the dragon and the teleportation circle? The Time Regression power only says that you retain knowledge of what happened. Presumably, if you'd gotten hit during that round, the damage would regress as well, so there's no clause that your body remains unchanged.

Point the third... it's entirely possible that the whole multiverse will remain stuck at that round in time, since the dragon keeps regressing it :) Congratulations, game over.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-22, 08:36 AM
What Dark says. Everything is turned back a round. You just keep your memories. SO your dragon would only get 1 rounds worth of water at any given time.

NullAshton
2007-02-22, 08:43 AM
But it makes an interesting paradox. What if you connect two teleportation circles, with one on the force dragon? Then continue the cycle of regression for all of eternity. Now then, what would the other teleportation circle go to?

The teleportation circle outside the time loop, where does it lead to? Since the destination only exists before a certain moment, what happens? Do you somehow teleport back in time to that one location?

Now what if a person teleported back in time using said teleportation circle, and broke the infinite loop? Then the dragon would exist in time beyond that certain moment in time. But in doing so, the teleportation circle in the future would no longer teleport back to the past. Thus, the infinite loop could never have been broken, and you're back to the teleportation circle going back in time...

oriong
2007-02-22, 09:12 AM
Well, the explosive teleportation circle doesn't actually work, because it assumes that you simply fall through a 'hole' in space which isn't what teleportation circle actually does. A creature would hit the surface, be teleported, and fall again. Therefore you end up with a series of very short falls for eternity.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-02-22, 02:18 PM
Well, the explosive teleportation circle doesn't actually work, because it assumes that you simply fall through a 'hole' in space which isn't what teleportation circle actually does. A creature would hit the surface, be teleported, and fall again. Therefore you end up with a series of very short falls for eternity.
Ring Gates, on the other hand...

Sardia
2007-02-22, 08:01 PM
Well, the explosive teleportation circle doesn't actually work, because it assumes that you simply fall through a 'hole' in space which isn't what teleportation circle actually does. A creature would hit the surface, be teleported, and fall again. Therefore you end up with a series of very short falls for eternity.

It is a question of timing. If the merest contact is sufficient to activate the circle, and it teleports before the incoming critter can destroy the circle by collilding with it at high speed _and_ the velocity is maintained, you simply keep falling toward the circle over and over at gradually higher velocity.
It does require a lot of assumptions about how the circle works.
On a rotating world, there's less problem- eventually the "ammunition" hits the side of the cylinder and is slowed by friction. Ew.

Sardia
2007-02-22, 08:49 PM
Ring Gates, on the other hand...

OOoh...suggests a particularly nasty particle accelerator about one light-day long.

Arceliar
2007-02-22, 09:16 PM
Well, the explosive teleportation circle doesn't actually work, because it assumes that you simply fall through a 'hole' in space which isn't what teleportation circle actually does. A creature would hit the surface, be teleported, and fall again. Therefore you end up with a series of very short falls for eternity.

I would argue the opposite.

From the original post:


1. How long does a teleportation circle take to transport from one place to another? Specifically, is the travel instantaneous?

From the Description:
You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot.

Greater Teleport:
Duration: Instantaneous

From the Duration section of the Magic section:
Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

This would mean, at least the way I'm seeing it, that as soon as a creature/object comes in contact with the surface it is instantly transported to the designated location. Hitting the surface causes an impulse of force over a short duration of time, but as the duration for GT is "Instantaneous" one would have to assume that no momentum is lost between the time the object touches the surface and the time it is teleported.

I cannot say for certain weather or not momentum is conserved during teleportation. However, in any and all ACTUAL teleportations I am aware of, light has been teleported short distances without losing momentum. Given the properties of wave-particle duality on light, I would argue that there's at least a good chance it can be assumed that the momentum is conserved for objects of mass (as opposed to light's relativistic mass). To assume otherwise would cause problems for thermodynamics.

Now, D&D/d20 teleportation obviously isn't required to follow the same principles. But if you're using it to make a unusual but effective particle accelerator, then you may as well use what you can of real physics.

Now somebody help me bury these catgirls...

oriong
2007-02-22, 11:39 PM
It explicitly says that only targets standing on the circle are teleported. In fact, an extremely anal aproach means that it's impossible to actually be teleported unless you are literally standing.

But clearly you are at least required to be supported by the ground the teleportation circle is on. It doesn't really matter how brief the contact is so long as it's there, you might accellerate (Since the time spent decelerating as you 'hit' the ground is extremely brief) but you're still hitting it. Eventually either the person teleporting or the surface of the teleportation circle is going to be killed/destroyed (at which point the teleportation stops).

Also of course the slightest motion of the cylinder will result in disaster as well since the angle of the faller's descent has been very slightly altered, and considering the rate of speeds you're hoping to get even an immeasurably small alteration will lead to a major direction change within a matter of seconds.

NinjaClarinet
2007-02-23, 12:10 AM
Two words: Terminal Velocity

oriong
2007-02-23, 12:16 AM
Not an issue, the thing takes place in a vacuum filled cylinder.

Sardia
2007-02-23, 10:28 AM
But clearly you are at least required to be supported by the ground the teleportation circle is on. It doesn't really matter how brief the contact is so long as it's there

If the unfortunate creature in the cylinder has to apply pressure to activate the circle, there's a use for that too-- just set the circle to teleport to the top of the cylinder and put a similar cylinder on the other end of a balance. You now have a perpetual motion, two-piston engine. Got to be a good use for that.

More sophisticated wizards would of course just load a zombie down with lodestone or magnetize an iron golem, wrap copper wire around the outside of the cylinder and figure out how to make a good capacitor...

KoDT69
2007-02-23, 02:43 PM
Actually I'm an Electronic Engineer, so I am fully confident that the Iron Golem wrapped in copper wire is an inductor, which could be very useful in a delayed trigger application, kinda like Delayed Blast Fireball. I guess in your application adding a makeshift capacitor can store a few Chain Lightnings or something :smallwink:
It's actually true though :smallsmile:

Jayabalard
2007-02-23, 03:13 PM
From the Description:
You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot.Coming into contact with an item while falling is not the same thing as standing on it. Standing implies, at least to me, that you are relatively motionless (ie: no momentum).

Gamebird
2007-02-23, 03:38 PM
You can't attach a teleportation circle to the tail of a creature.

Besides, the whole thing's dumb.

Have you seen the film Primer? It was quite good and dealt with time travel and paradox.

Sardia
2007-02-23, 10:55 PM
Coming into contact with an item while falling is not the same thing as standing on it. Standing implies, at least to me, that you are relatively motionless (ie: no momentum).

Fortunately, as has been mentioned, you can do some similar tricks with ring gates. Unfortunately, you need an awful lot of them linked in series to make a city go away, or a huge amount of space to "recycle" the shot after its acceleration phases so you only pass 100lb/day through each gate--like separating the two gate-ends a light day apart.
Pesky weight limit/day spoils the really good fun.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-26, 08:28 AM
Wouldn't it be simpler to just plant the circles yourself, place some kind of sloping ramp+platform for your decanter, then dispel circles when ready to drop it on someone?

Eg:
___ represents your circle. D is the decanter, . is the water(or space), but mostly there so I can put in spaces.

__________A
...................D|
................../..|
................./...|
................/....|
__________B

B opens at the top, exits at A, which opens at the bottom.