Edith the E6 Persistomancer

[Cruiser1]

http://www.astrolog.org/other/edith.jpg

The persistomancer, or a build that persists a large number of buffs, is strong for the simple reason that “magic wins D&D”, and the persistomancer makes use of the most magic simultaneously. Indeed, builds like Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) demonstrate the potential power of the persistomancer and having hundreds of buffs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15110369&postcount=6), which can result in things like infinite standard actions in a row (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15115968&postcount=10) and being just shy of Pun-Pun in power. However, builds like that are level 20, and most real games never get that far. What about low level characters, such as in E6? Yes, a level 6 persistomancer is possible, and can be a strong build for that level. :smallsmile:

The Build
Human Cloistered Cleric 5, Spelldancer 1

Domains (both available from Boccob, or support a cause):

Planning: To get Extend Spell for free.
Magic: So can activate CL 3 arcane wands of Heroics.

Cleric is a good base class because it has automatic access to the entirety of a quality list with numerous buffs. Spelldancer (MoF) is a powerful PrC allowing applying metamagic with no spell level adjustment after a single level, and has no hard per-day limits.

Assumption: Metamagic feats stack in the order you want, and influence existing effects. For example, Extend applied to Persist lasts 48 hours. More importantly, Ocular Spell applied to a touch or variable range spell (which normally isn't valid for Persistent Spell) makes the result a fixed range spell, which can then be persisted.

Feats
SourceFeatNeeded for
Planning domainExtend SpellPersistent Spell qualification
Flaw #1NoncombatantCasters usually don't melee
Flaw #2VulnerableCasters usually don't get hit
Flaw #1 bonusCombat CastingSpelldancer qualification
Flaw #2 bonusEnduranceSpelldancer qualification
Level 1Apprentice (Entertainer)Spelldancer qualification
Human bonusPersistent SpellPersisting buffs
Level 3Ocular SpellPersisting varied buffs
Level 6Repeat SpellPersisting multiple buffs

In an actual E6 campaign, you get extra feats at later “levels”. That allows this build to still work in more restricted environments. If flaws aren’t available, the build comes online later after two more bonus feats are obtained. Similarly, if it’s ruled that PrC’s must be qualified for with natural unbuffed feats, the build also works once two additional feats are obtained.

Equipment
Spend your 13K WBL as follows:

PriceItemUse
4420Eternal Wand of HeroicsActivate twice in order to get Dodge and Mobility, in order to Spelldance.
4000Sandals of the Vagabond (CC)Make yourself immune to exhaustion, in order to Spelldance repeatedly.
2500Bag of Holding IUseful for Greater Teleport.
2080Gold remaining

Stats
Using the standard 32 point buy in E6 for a LA +0 character, select something like STR 8, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 15 (increase to 16 at level 4), CHA 14. STR can be dumped unless you intend to melee. DEX needs to be at least 13 to quality for Dodge. CON is of course always useful. INT is useful for skill points. WIS can actually be as low as 13 to cast 3rd level spells, since you aren’t attacking with them and hence save DC’s don’t matter, although WIS 16 does give you a bonus 3rd level spell. CHA is useful for Perform bonus.

Qualifying for Spelldancer
Feats: Spelldancer has an extensive four feat tax: Combat Casting, Endurance, Dodge, and Mobility. Take Combat Casting and Endurance as actual feats. Use your Eternal Wand of Heroics to cast it twice to gain the two feats Dodge and Mobility. They will only last for 30 minutes, but that’s more then enough time to get your buffs Persisted.

Skills: Spelldancer requires Perform (Dance) 8 ranks, Tumble 4 ranks, and Concentration 4 ranks. Concentration is an easy class skill, Tumble can be taken cross-class, however Perform needs to be a class skill to get 8 ranks by level 6. Therefore spend a feat on Apprentice (Entertainer), to make Perform a class skill for all classes.

Using Spelldancer
Spelldancing allows applying any number of metamagic feats to a spell (that isn’t Evocation or Necromancy) without adjusting the spell slot. However, afterward you have to make a high Fort save or else take 2 CON damage and become fatigued or exhausted. What we’d really like to do is cast Sheltered Vitality (LM), a level 3 Cleric spell which makes you immune to all ability damage/drain, and fatigue/exhaustion, which prevents all downsides. Unfortunately it was reprinted as a level 4 spell in SC, meaning we can’t cast it at level 6.

Instead of trying to make increasing Fort saves, Edith just absorbs the downsides and deals with the CON damage and fatigue. (After all, receiving those negative effects doesn’t lose the spell or prevent the metamagic, with the only downside being that you can’t Spelldance if exhausted.) What we do is: Cast Body Ward (CC) to absorb the CON damage. Cast it twice in a row (i.e. once with Repeat spell) and it absorbs 8 CON damage, or 4 Spelldanced buffs. After buffing is complete that day, cast Ray of Resurgence (LEoF) once to remove fatigue, and you’re back at 100% power.

Spelldancing also requires a Perform (Dance) check equal to 10+final spell level, which is pretty easy. The most extreme case (a Repeat Ocular Extended Persistent level 3 spell) has an adjusted level of 15, for a DC 25 check. Edith’s Perform (Dance) check is 26: 9 ranks + 4 CHA bonus + 2 morale (Ray of Hope) + 1 luck (Prayer) + take 10 since buffing takes place out of combat each morning.

Spells persisted
Each buff lasts for 48 hours or 2 days when both Persisted and Extended. That basically doubles your spell slots, meaning you can prepare a different set of spells every other day. With 16 WIS, your 0-3rd level spell slots are 5,4+1,4+1,3+1. Prepare and cast the following spells over each two day period. All spells are persistable except those marked with "*":

LevelSpellBonus
0ResistanceSave +1 resistance
0Detect MagicUseful divination
0VirtueHP +1 temp
0LightIt can be persisted
0* Other x63 other cantrips per day
1Lesser VigorFast healing 1
1Ray of HopeSave +2 morale; Skill +2 morale; Attack +2 morale
1Shield of FaithAC +3 deflection
1Protection from EvilImmune to charm and possession
1Detect EvilUseful divination
1Eyes of the AvoralSkill Spot +8 racial
1Detect Secret Doors (domain)Useful divination
1Magic Aura (domain)Make sandals not appear magical
1* Ray of Resurgence x2Remove fatigue after Spelldancing
2Bear’s EnduranceCON +4 enhancement
2Elation (BoED)STR, DEX +2 morale; Speed +5 untyped
2Detect Thoughts (domain)Useful divination
2Luminous Armor (use domain)AC +5 armor; -4 enemy melee attack
2* Body Ward (CC) x6Absorb 8 CON damage each, or 4 Spelldanced buffs each
3Celestial AspectSpeed fly 100 ft (good)
3Channeled Divine Shield (PHB2)DR 10/evil
3Blindsight (BoED)Blindsight 30 ft
3Lesser Visage of the DeityCHA +4 enhancement; resist acid, cold, electricity 10
3PrayerSave +1 luck; Skill +1 luck; Attack +1 luck
3Battlemagic Perception (HoB)Counterspell as free action
3* Dispel Magic x2 (domain)Counterspell as free action

Bonuses: The above gives the following bonuses continuously…

Save +4: +1 resistance (Resistance), +2 morale (Ray of Hope), +1 luck (Prayer)
AC +8 [+12 versus melee due to -4 penalty to enemies]: +5 armor (Luminous Armor), +3 deflection (Shield of Faith)
Attack +3: +2 morale (Ray of Hope), +1 luck (Prayer)
Skill +3: +2 morale (Ray of Hope), +1 luck (Prayer)

Summary: With persisted DR 10/evil, fast healing 1, and 100 ft fly speed (good), it’s difficult to catch or hurt you. With 30 ft blindsight (not just blindsense) you effectively see invisibility and are unblindable, and penetrate all illusions except those that provide tactile feedback (like Veil). With Protection from Evil you’re not affected by charms and compulsions. With Detect Thoughts, Detect Evil, Detect Secret Doors, and Battlemagic Perception up all the time it’s harder for anybody to hide anything from you. You can even resist a Dispel Magic (which could bring down all your buffs) since you can 100% detect and counterspell it as a free action with Battlemagic Perception.

Celestial Aspect: This is a powerful level 3 spell. You get a 100 ft fly speed (good). With Repeat Spell you get two instances of it persisted, meaning you can maintain flight and also select one of its combat benefits. For example, the free 2d6 fire nuke that never misses is a nice “reserve feat-ish” way to plink at anything not able to deal with fliers. The ram’s horns and +1 flaming sword or +1 holy sword are nice if you want to fight in melee.

Greater Teleport: Cast Call Lantern Archon (CoV) to call a Lantern Archon. Climb in your Bag of Holding I (which you can fit in as a medium character). A Bag of Holding always weighs 20 lbs, so a Lantern Archon can lift it even with STR 1, especially if you buff it with Bull’s Strength. Have the Lantern Archon Greater Teleport you to whatever destination (because it’s called and not just summoned, it can use its teleportation ability). You may need another Body Ward to absorb the CON drain from Call Lantern Archon, but that’s still just 2-3 low level spells for a guaranteed Greater Teleport, which is quite powerful in E6.

Alternative builds
Spell domain: Instead of Magic Domain, take Spell Domain and you can cast Anyspell to prepare and cast Heroics directly. A spellbook containing Heroics is cheaper than the Eternal Wand, however it’s harder to get started from a completely unbuffed state. (There’s a bit of a “chicken and egg” scenario: You want to cast Repeat Heroics to cover Dodge and Mobility with one instance of Anyspell, but you need those feats to be able to Spelldance Repeat Spell.)

Wizard levels: With early entry cheese, you can do a build like Cloistered Cleric 2, Wizard (Transmuter) 1, Mystic Theurge 2, Spelldancer 1. Take Sanctum Spell to meet the spell level requirements of Mystic Theurge and Spelldancer, and retrain it afterward. That gives you 2nd level Wizard spells (i.e. the ability to cast Heroics directly) along with 3rd level Cleric spells, which gives access to additional Wizard buffs.

E7: If you can take just one more level, you get much more powerful. You can cast 4th level spells, so you can definitely persist Sheltered Vitality (SC), which saves you 4 spell slots per day (3 level 2 and 1 level 1) that had been devoted to overcoming CON damage and fatigue, which means eight more buffs. You can also cast Unfailing Endurance (DotF) to get the Endurance feat, gaining a feat slot. In general 4th level spells means persisting powerful buffs like Freedom of Movement and Lesser Holy Transformation. You’re now immune to grappling and paralysis, and have full Outsider type which gives all kinds of benefits. :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An Eternal Wand is not a wand, it's a wondrous item, and it doesn't use a spell trigger or spell completion method, it only requires that you be able to cast arcane spells to activate it. So the Magic domain doesn't help you use this. You could get Magical Training (PGtF) to cast a few 0-level arcane spells each day to use it. You could get the Spell domain, since Anyspell allows you to prepare and cast an arcane spell, "just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level" so it's still an arcane spell when you cast it instead of a divine spell. This can also give you access to Shield, Wraithstrike, and various other choice Wizard spells to persist, just use a Pearl of Power to recover Anyspell for multiple uses/day.

While using Heroics to gain Dodge and Mobility will enable you to use Spelldancer, I don't think it will enable you gain your first level of Spelldancer. Metagame events like gaining xp and leveling up are unknown to characters in-game, so your character wouldn't know when to activate the wand in order to take that prestige class level.

Furthermore, the material component for Heroics is impossible to obtain in E6: "A bit of a weapon or armor that has been used in combat by a fighter of at least 15th level." While Eschew Materials can remove the requirement for this, it goes against the spirit of E6, just like using incantations to call outsiders with 4th+ level spell-like abilities to meet prerequisites of creating items, or finding a Midgard Dwarf to craft weapons/armor, rings, and wondrous items that should not be obtainable in E6. Just like E6 has its restricted item list based on what PCs would be able to create themselves with their own abilities, despite what the setting could produce outside of the 6th level cap, a spell that could not have existed in the first place in a setting lacking 15th level Fighters should not be available in E6.

[toapat]

or finding a Midgard Dwarf to craft weapons/armor, rings, and wondrous items that should not be obtainable in E6.

do RHD even qualify as an XP pool? because the Midgard Dwarf cant craft in E6 otherwise because the XP and gold costs are not part of what they get to ignore

i think shattered remains of a solar's armor and gear would count for the material component for heroics

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

do RHD even qualify as an XP pool? because the Midgard Dwarf cant craft in E6 otherwise because the XP and gold costs are not part of what they get to ignore

i think shattered remains of a solar's armor and gear would count for the material component for heroics

Heroics says 15th level Fighter, so that means any creature with 15 levels of the Fighter class, which cannot exist in an E6 setting. Every spell came from somewhere, whether Otiluke or Otto or Bigby or Evard or Mordenkainen or Tenser or some other mage whose name is lost to the ages, every spell was initially researched and created before it was first cast. Eschew Materials allows you to ignore noncostly material components when casting a spell, but this benefit does not extend to researching spells. Whoever first created Heroics had to have that material component to use in his experiments, that it cannot exist means that the spell was never researched in the first place and thus it also cannot exist.

[Nightraiderx]

There is a way to get free metamagic through using psionics/incarnum feats, although persist may be tough due to needing essentia capacity 6.
Race: Human/Incarnate
Cleric (Extend Spell through planning domain)
F Pesist Spell
F Midnight Metamagic
1 Extra Essentia Capacity
H Extra Essentia Capacity
3 Extra Essentia Capacity
6 Extra Essentia Capacity

MIC has Essentia Helms, in which for one round they fill up to three incarnum receptacles per day for 3K.
Oh look, you have midnight metamagic open and have 6 slots. For 3K you can have three spells per day persisted.

Two more feats until infinite loop. 1. Wild Talent 2. Psycarnum Infusion.

Now you don't need the incarnum receptacles, every time you drop your psionic focus (free action)
to fill your midnight metamagic (free action) so that you can persist that spell.

Of course this combo is easier for epic play (when you have 4 slots open)

If I'm missing something, or for some reason a ECL 6 character wouldn't get a essentia capacity of 2 then this falls apart.

[Jeff the Green]

An Eternal Wand is not a wand, it's a wondrous item, and it doesn't use a spell trigger or spell completion method, it only requires that you be able to cast arcane spells to activate it. So the Magic domain doesn't help you use this. You could get Magical Training (PGtF) to cast a few 0-level arcane spells each day to use it. You could get the Spell domain, since Anyspell allows you to prepare and cast an arcane spell, "just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level" so it's still an arcane spell when you cast it instead of a divine spell. This can also give you access to Shield, Wraithstrike, and various other choice Wizard spells to persist, just use a Pearl of Power to recover Anyspell for multiple uses/day.

While using Heroics to gain Dodge and Mobility will enable you to use Spelldancer, I don't think it will enable you gain your first level of Spelldancer. Metagame events like gaining xp and leveling up are unknown to characters in-game, so your character wouldn't know when to activate the wand in order to take that prestige class level.

Furthermore, the material component for Heroics is impossible to obtain in E6: "A bit of a weapon or armor that has been used in combat by a fighter of at least 15th level." While Eschew Materials can remove the requirement for this, it goes against the spirit of E6, just like using incantations to call outsiders with 4th+ level spell-like abilities to meet prerequisites of creating items, or finding a Midgard Dwarf to craft weapons/armor, rings, and wondrous items that should not be obtainable in E6. Just like E6 has its restricted item list based on what PCs would be able to create themselves with their own abilities, despite what the setting could produce outside of the 6th level cap, a spell that could not have existed in the first place in a setting lacking 15th level Fighters should not be available in E6.

Mirror move works, though. I can imagine some shenanigans like retraining that might allow qualifying depending on what order things happen, though your best bet is waiting on Occular and Repeat until after 6th.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If I'm missing something, or for some reason a ECL 6 character wouldn't get a essentia capacity of 2 then this falls apart.

You are missing something, the first three words of the Benefit section of Midnight Metamagic is once per day. Even though the essentia spent on Midnight Metamagic is available for use again once you've cast the spell it modified, you can only invest essentia into Midnight Metamagic once per day. To use it to persist three spells, you would have to invest 18 essentia at once.


Mirror move works, though. I can imagine some shenanigans like retraining that might allow qualifying depending on what order things happen, though your best bet is waiting on Occular and Repeat until after 6th.

Mirror Move (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a) allows you to reproduce a use of a feat that you already possess the prerequisites for. It does not allow you to count as having the feat, only to use the feat's active effect. Furthermore, you cannot use that spell to gain both Dodge and Mobility, because you must have Dodge already to gain Mobility from it.

[Darrin]

You are missing something, the first three words of the Benefit section of Midnight Metamagic is once per day. Even though the essentia spent on Midnight Metamagic is available for use again once you've cast the spell it modified, you can only invest essentia into Midnight Metamagic once per day.


That shouldn't matter. Psycarnum Infusion doesn't invest essentia, so it doesn't violate the "once per day" rule:

"Until the start of your next turn, one of your soulmelds, incarnum feats, class features, or other incarnum receptacles is treated as if it had essentia invested in it equal to its maximum essentia capacity." (emphasis added)

So you start the day investing essentia to tie a particular metamagic feat to a particular spell. After that essentia has been used, you can use Psycarnum Infusion to treat the feat as if it were at full capacity.



To use it to persist three spells, you would have to invest 18 essentia at once.


Well, there's the rub: the link between the metamagic feat and the spell selected is created when the essentia is invested. You could link Persistent Spell to let's say a blink spell. Once the 6 essentia are spent, the feat is empty. Psycarnum Infusion lets you treat it as if it were full... but only if you're trying to cast a persisted blink again. But you probably don't need to, since your blink is probably still there. You could not use Psycarnum Infusion to cast a different persisted spell because the link between Persistent Spell and blink was created when the initial essentia was invested, and you can't change this until the next day.

This trick would only be useful if you wanted to cast multiples of the same spell. To cast three different persisted spells, yes, you'd have to invest 18 essentia.

[Gemini476]

Do note that you can still get into Spelldancer if you bump up Ocular Spell and Repeat Spell to +5,000xp and +10,000xp and take Dodge and Mobility at 1st and 3rd level. (Take Persistent Spell at 6th so you can still do stuff.)
And then you have 4,420gp to spend on whatever you want!

(Also, do note that Heroics as a spell could still exist - it's just that the material component would come from someone like Kord [a Fighter 20/Barbarian 20] rather than your run-of-the-mill 15th level Fighter [which is still a pretty rare occurrence in the Standard D&D World].)

[Nightraiderx]

Ah I see, then it would be more useful for a blastomancer than a persistamancer.
But reading that feat over again, there would be no reason to initially fill the receptacle and lock it in to a specific spell.
The Essentia helm also treats a receptacle as filled for 1 round per use of charge, similar to how psycarnum infusion treats it.
I see you can apply it to different spells but I think the capacity limits the amount you can add up to. Not only would need 18 points
of essentia would need to have that large of a capacity pool for it. So nvm, definately better for a singular blast-type spell, which is still pretty cool in it's own right.

[Rebel7284]

You can also pick up mobility from the armor of mobility.
That way you can even qualify with a single flaw.

1. Apprentice Entertainer
H. Dodge
F. Combat casting
Bonus: Extend Spell
3. Endurance
5. Purchase Armor of Mobility.
6. Persistent Spell

[Cruiser1]

An Eternal Wand is not a wand, it's a wondrous item, and it doesn't use a spell trigger or spell completion method, it only requires that you be able to cast arcane spells to activate it.
An Eternal Wand sure seems like a wand. It requires the Craft Wand feat to make. Even the descriptive fluff calls it a "long, tapered wand" and "a new form of wand", just with 2 charges that recharge each day. (In that respect it's similar to a Pathfinder staff vs. a 3.5 staff, with fewer charges but a way to restore them.) Anyway, Eternal Wands don't actually say they're spell trigger items, but they certainly behave like them. Even if not, the important thing is whether they're wands. Magic domain says you can use all scrolls and wands (along with other items that are spell completion or spell trigger, like say scepters and minor schemas).


You could get the Spell domain, since Anyspell allows you to prepare and cast an arcane spell, "just as though cast by a wizard of your cleric level" so it's still an arcane spell when you cast it instead of a divine spell. just use a Pearl of Power to recover Anyspell for multiple uses/day.
Indeed, the OP suggests Spell domain as an alternative to Magic domain for the build. Heroics is a 2nd level spell (even if prepared in the 3rd level domain slot) so only needs a 2nd level Pearl of Power to bring back. That costs 4000 gp, which fits WBL if you skip the Bag of Holding (which isn't needed for Spelldancing).


While using Heroics to gain Dodge and Mobility will enable you to use Spelldancer, I don't think it will enable you gain your first level of Spelldancer. Metagame events like gaining xp and leveling up are unknown to characters in-game, so your character wouldn't know when to activate the wand in order to take that prestige class level.
Characters can choose to not level up, even if they have enough XP to. For example, they want to spend XP on crafting or spells, or take advantage of faster XP gain when down a level. Therefore leveling up seems very character based, and an aspiring Spelldancer should know to not level up until they've buffed themselves with magic to make themselves more agile. The only issue is how long leveling up takes. If it's more than 30 minutes, then temporary magic won't last. A character could always take Dodge and Mobility as real feats long enough to enter Spelldancer, then retrain them afterward.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Characters can choose to not level up, even if they have enough XP to. For example, they want to spend XP on crafting or spells, or take advantage of faster XP gain when down a level. Therefore leveling up seems very character based, and an aspiring Spelldancer should know to not level up until they've buffed themselves with magic to make themselves more agile. The only issue is how long leveling up takes. If it's more than 30 minutes, then temporary magic won't last. A character could always take Dodge and Mobility as real feats long enough to enter Spelldancer, then retrain them afterward.

PHB p58 disagrees:

Advancing a Level: When your character’s XP total reaches at
least the minimum XP needed for a new character level (see Table
3–2), he or she “goes up a level.” For example, when Tordek obtains
1,000 or more XP, he becomes a 2nd-level character. As soon as he
accumulates a total of 3,000 XP or higher (2,000 more than he had
when he gained 2nd level), he reaches 3rd level. Going up a level
provides the character with several immediate benefits (see below).

Leveling up is immediate, you are not given the choice to delay it. As I said, metagame events like gaining xp and advancing levels are completely unknown to the characters themselves. Even if you could delay gaining a level, your character wouldn't know to use Heroics to gain those feats just prior to leveling up. It's 100% metagaming, and basing a character build on metagaming just does not work. Anyone can make a Kobold Paladin 1 and have him say Pazuzu three times, but if that character doesn't have any ranks in Knowledge: the Planes, then there's no chance that he's even aware of Pazuzu's existence, isn't aware of his name, and it's within a DM's power to tell him that he simply cannot do that. Using Heroics or any other game mechanics that require action from your character to temporarily meet a prerequisite just prior to gaining a level does not work because characters have no concept of levels, classes, experience points, or any other metagame concepts, and are not capable of coordinating the activation of an ability with the acquisition of a character level.

[Anthrowhale]

Edith seems nice. The ingredient I hadn't noticed before is the apprentice feat.

I'm skeptical that you can alter the effect of the second cast of a repeat spell, implying that you only get 5 con protection.

Some modifications could make a more powerful Edith.
1) Using Archivist instead of cleric. This opens up all divine spells, and can be broadened to all spells via scribe scroll + spells donated by an arcane caster. The cost is the planning domain (= - 1 feat).
2) Use Church Inquisitor to get an extra domain and use substitute domain to pick up Planning / extend spell (+ 1 feat).
3) Use two levels of Devil bloodline to get the Dodge feat (+1 feat).
4) Edit: doesn't work Use 3 levels of bloodline to enable buying perform 6 cross-class (+1 feat).
5) A Twin Maximized Lesser Restoration recovers 8(-2) ability score damage from a level 1 slot using the paladin version of the spell.

[Rebel7284]

Note that if your DM allows Nightsticks to stack, it may be much simpler to just go with DMM.

[Cruiser1]

Leveling up is immediate, you are not given the choice to delay it.

upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

you may, on gaining enough XP to achieve a new level, immediately spend the XP on casting the spell rather than keeping it to advance a level.
No, leveling up is not necessarily immediate. :smallsmile: As mentioned above, you can also use XP for crafting or spellcasting. The question is, how long is "immediate", and what can you do before you must spend XP on one of the three choices: Level up, crafting, or spellcasting?

Suppose my character wants to craft an expensive item: If she slays a dragon and gains enough XP to level up, does she have to start crafting right in its lair, or can she spend a few actions to teleport back to her magical workshop first (which is required for crafting in the first place)? Can she rest and prepare the spells she actually needs to expend in crafting, or if she doesn't have them prepared at the time the dragon drops, is she somehow forbidden from ever starting that magic item? Same with XP spells: My character wants to gain an inherent bonus from a few consecutive castings of Wish. She slays a dragon and can level up, but doesn't have Wish prepared right then. Can she wait until the next morning, or does she have to keep track of her XP total and when she gets close to leveling up, start fighting monsters without her 9th level slots that have been prefilled with the Wishes she wants to cast?

Again that suggests there's at least an overnight delay before you must spend your XP. A character definitely knows when they have the opportunity to level up, and works with XP for crafting and spells, which means XP is not a metagame concept but is active and measurable in any campaign world. A character who wants to be a Spelldancer (or any other class) should be able to know its requirements through a knowledge check (presumably Knowledge Arcana). That lets the character be aware they need to apply Heroics before leveling up and taking that first Spelldancer level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, leveling up is not necessarily immediate. :smallsmile: As mentioned above, you can also use XP for crafting or spellcasting. The question is, how long is "immediate", and what can you do before you must spend XP on one of the three choices: Level up, crafting, or spellcasting?

Suppose my character wants to craft an expensive item: If she slays a dragon and gains enough XP to level up, does she have to start crafting right in its lair, or can she spend a few actions to teleport back to her magical workshop first (which is required for crafting in the first place)? Can she rest and prepare the spells she actually needs to expend in crafting, or if she doesn't have them prepared at the time the dragon drops, is she somehow forbidden from ever starting that magic item? Same with XP spells: My character wants to gain an inherent bonus from a few consecutive castings of Wish. She slays a dragon and can level up, but doesn't have Wish prepared right then. Can she wait until the next morning, or does she have to keep track of her XP total and when she gets close to leveling up, start fighting monsters without her 9th level slots that have been prefilled with the Wishes she wants to cast?

Again that suggests there's at least an overnight delay before you must spend your XP. A character definitely knows when they have the opportunity to level up, and works with XP for crafting and spells, which means XP is not a metagame concept but is active and measurable in any campaign world. A character who wants to be a Spelldancer (or any other class) should be able to know its requirements through a knowledge check (presumably Knowledge Arcana). That lets the character be aware they need to apply Heroics before leveling up and taking that first Spelldancer level.

You did not quote the whole thing, you're intentionally taking this out of context:


XP Cost
Experience that the spellcaster would normally keep is expended when making a magic item. The XP cost equals 1/25 of the cost of the item in gold pieces. A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

Cast a Spell
Most spells require 1 standard action to cast. You can cast such a spell either before or after you take a move action.

Note: You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC while casting.
Spell Components

To cast a spell with a verbal (V) component, your character must speak in a firm voice. If you’re gagged or in the area of a silence spell, you can’t cast such a spell. A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell he tries to cast if that spell has a verbal component.

To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component, you must gesture freely with at least one hand. You can’t cast a spell of this type while bound, grappling, or with both your hands full or occupied.

To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these materials are elaborate preparing these materials is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.

Some spells have an experience point (XP) component and entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the lost XP. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to achieve a new level, immediately spend the XP on casting the spell rather than keeping it to advance a level. The XP are expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.
You're only allowed to delay leveling up to instead spend the xp on a spell or on magic item creation that costs so much xp it would otherwise have caused you to lose a character level. When you gain enough xp to gain a level, you either immediately pick what level you gain, or you immediately decide what you're spending that xp on instead of that level. The rules on gaining levels are clear that your level is gained "as soon as" you have the xp required, with the above exception to that only being permitted when you're 100% certain that you would rather spend it on something that costs more than an entire level's worth of xp. Once that decision is made there's no takesies-backsies, you get the level immediately or you must spend the xp.

Furthermore, the decision to either gain a level or spend the xp is a metagame decision which your character is not privy to. You decide what classes your character takes, you decide whether or not your character spends xp, these are absolutely not quantifiable to a given character ever and a character is not capable of making decisions based on it, despite what player knowledge you wish to bestow on her. When a character gains her first level of Spelldancer, it was because she spent weeks, even months, practicing the dances daily and trying to get it right consistently. That character has absolutely no way of knowing at what time of what day that it's finally going to click and they've got the moves down and the next time they go to practice they realize they've got it and excitedly exclaim, "I'm doing it!" Characters are aware that there are spelldancers, but they don't have any idea that it's a 'class' or a 'prestige class' or that it has 'prerequisites', only that every spelldancer they've seen has mastered a particular skill set prior to mastering spelldancing. The decisions you make for your character based on game mechanics that are not detectable by your character in any way are not an indication that your character is aware of metagame concepts.

[Erik Vale]

OOTS and any number of other games would like to take a moment to mock you for claiming that characters can't have metagame knowledge.

[RegalKain]

Furthermore, the decision to either gain a level or spend the xp is a metagame decision which your character is not privy to. You decide what classes your character takes, you decide whether or not your character spends xp, these are absolutely not quantifiable to a given character ever and a character is not capable of making decisions based on it, despite what player knowledge you wish to bestow on her. When a character gains her first level of Spelldancer, it was because she spent weeks, even months, practicing the dances daily and trying to get it right consistently. That character has absolutely no way of knowing at what time of what day that it's finally going to click and they've got the moves down and the next time they go to practice they realize they've got it and excitedly exclaim, "I'm doing it!" Characters are aware that there are spelldancers, but they don't have any idea that it's a 'class' or a 'prestige class' or that it has 'prerequisites', only that every spelldancer they've seen has mastered a particular skill set prior to mastering spelldancing. The decisions you make for your character based on game mechanics that are not detectable by your character in any way are not an indication that your character is aware of metagame concepts.

Sorry I'm feeling a bit lazy this evening, but can you cite and source where it says in the rules and books that a character is not aware of experience gain? And that it is purely 100% meta knowledge only? From a RAI/Logic standpoint which to be fair has little place in a RAW argument, the "level up as soon as" argument is a rather poor one, especially seeing as if you overcome a challenge powerful enough to instantly gain two levels, you're a level 1 fighter, and you choose Druid and Wizard (Which you are legally allowed to do.) your character has "magicially" grasped the concepts of nature and the tedious process of the arcane arts? Entering the class long before their standard class starting age would allow no less depending on the campaign. But yeah, official ruling/source that characters aren't aware of what you're calling meta-knowledge, I more just want to read up on it then anything.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorry I'm feeling a bit lazy this evening, but can you cite and source where it says in the rules and books that a character is not aware of experience gain? And that it is purely 100% meta knowledge only? From a RAI/Logic standpoint which to be fair has little place in a RAW argument, the "level up as soon as" argument is a rather poor one, especially seeing as if you overcome a challenge powerful enough to instantly gain two levels, you're a level 1 fighter, and you choose Druid and Wizard (Which you are legally allowed to do.) your character has "magicially" grasped the concepts of nature and the tedious process of the arcane arts? Entering the class long before their standard class starting age would allow no less depending on the campaign. But yeah, official ruling/source that characters aren't aware of what you're calling meta-knowledge, I more just want to read up on it then anything.

It's impossible to gain more than one level at once, PHB p58, second to the last paragraph on the left side, starting with the sentence, "A character can advance only one level at a time."

DMG Chapter 2 describes experience as 'a measure of accomplishment' and that it serves to represent that a character's power is proportionate to the extent of their personal experiences. It goes on to describe experience penalties and costs as a way to limit and control activities that have an xp cost attached, purely for game mechanics. Nowhere is it mentioned that characters could be aware of it, there are no knowledge or other skill checks related to it and it exists solely for purposes of game mechanics and not in-character interactions. Characters will be aware that certain spells and creating magic items is personally draining, they may know that one activity with an xp cost is more draining than another activity with an xp cost, but they certainly won't be able to put a number to it.

A comic about a game in which the characters of the comic deliver punchlines about the mechanics of the game is not how games are actually played. The characters don't discuss the mechanics of the game because game mechanics are in-character knowledge, they discuss the mechanics of the game because it's a comic about a game and the mechanics are being used as part of a joke.

If someone has convinced themselves that this works because they need it to work, I'm not going to be able to sway them. What's important is that some new player doesn't find their way into this thread a year or two down the road and think that they can make in-character decisions based on metagame knowledge to skirt the prerequisites of a prestige class, only to play from 1st to 6th level and be told by their DM that it doesn't work that way and they have to pick a different class to level up at 6th.

[Gemini476]

I'm fairly certain that XP and levels and such could somewhat easily be imperically determined within D&Dland. All you need to assume is that you have someone who is willing to investigate the rules of the world as they are, which admittedly might not be a thing in a game modeled after medieval Europe. That's stereotypically more of a Renaissance thing.

I mean, Intelligence score can be determined by Detect Thoughts and Strength can be determined by lifting weights. Constitution can be determined by holding your breath, and Wisdom could probably be determined by how long you can stay awake (although you really need a better method, seriously). Caster level can be determined by one of the many spells that scale with it, probably by measuring duration or range. Hit dice have a variety of scalable effects that can check that, although it'd be pretty difficult. Fighter feats can be determined by pushing the limits on what Heroics can or can not do, and HP can be determined by things that do constant static (preferably non-lethal) damage - and, in turn, can be linked to Constitution and Hit Dice to figure out what types of HD a specific individual is likely to have. Or a specific class, for that matter, once you start categorizing all the various class features out there.

It's easiest to determine spellcasters, to be honest. Whether or not you can cast a certain spell says a lot, not to mention spells being focused on different things.

Things get tricky when you mix in multiclass characters and prestige classes, but the former are supposed to be fairly rare in D&Dland and the latter are very specific in their association to fluff. It might be hard to decipher the difference between prestige classes and other classes, though.

Oh yeah, and XP can be determined through crafting. Especially when combined with items that grant crafting XP - Ambrosia, for instance. That gets you fairly close. I also remember knowing some other methods, but can't recall them right now.


However, having temporary effects qualify you for PrCs is still pretty iffy since you don't know when you get the XP. Not just when you level up, but when you get the XP at all - is it immediately when a monster is defeated, as soon as the encounter is defeated, when he session is over, when the adventure is over, or just when the DM feels like it? It works if you have access to Restoration, but otherwise getting the timing right is really tricky.
Also, the DM might implement training rules. Beware that. Or downtime rules, in which case leveling up takes 1 to 1d4 days. Like I said, beware that.

[Cruiser1]

Edith seems nice. The ingredient I hadn't noticed before is the apprentice feat.
The feat Apprentice (Entertainer) helps for Spelldancing before level 10. (Diplomacy as a class skill for all classes is nice too for a character that doesn't dump CHA.) Once a character reaches level 10, you can pick up Spelldancer with Perform (Dance) cross-class the whole way. (6 ranks needed, spend 12 skill points cross-class through level 9, and take Spelldancer 1 at level 10.)


I'm skeptical that you can alter the effect of the second cast of a repeat spell, implying that you only get 5 con protection.
Twin Spell says "any variable characteristics (including attack rolls) or decisions you would make about the spell (including target and area), are applied to both spells". However, Repeat Spell (a few pages earlier in the same book) doesn't have this restriction, and only says "if the original spell designates a ranged target, the repeated spell affects the same target". Repeat Spell is actually a different spell cast the next round, and its only restriction is it has to have the same target, so you can make different decisions. Repeat Spell is a persistomancer trick, e.g. a single casting of Repeat Resist Energy can help you against two elements. Kerri the Merry Fairy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263905-Kerri-the-Merry-Fairy-A-Rainbow-of-Buffs) used Repeat Miracles to acquire two different buffs at a time. :smallsmile:


1) Using Archivist instead of cleric. This opens up all divine spells, and can be broadened to all spells via scribe scroll + spells donated by an arcane caster. The cost is the planning domain (= - 1 feat).
3) Use two levels of Devil bloodline to get the Dodge feat (+1 feat).
Good ideas. :smallsmile: Another cost of Archivist is the scrolls for spells you want (beyond the free level-up spells), which need to be tallied to ensure you remain within WBL. Devil bloodline to get Dodge feat is nice. Combine it with +1 armor of Mobility as another suggested, and that's a way to get both Dodge and Mobility permanently, if the DM doesn't allow using Heroics to qualify for taking Spelldancer.

[Cruiser1]

Note that if your DM allows Nightsticks to stack, it may be much simpler to just go with DMM.
The nice thing about Spelldancer is there's no limit to the number of times you can do it (as long as you resist or heal the CON damage). Other forms of metamagic reduction have strict per-day limits, such as Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic.

Edith maintains 22 buffs continually persisted, or 11 per day. A Nightstick provides 4 turn undead uses for 7500 gp. To Persist + Extend a spell requires (6+1)+(1+1) = 9 turn undead uses, or 99 per day. Edith has 7 turn undead uses normally, so needs 92 more, or 23 Nightsticks to get an equivalent level of buffing. That costs 172500 gp, which is well beyond the WBL of a level 6 character! That's why Edith and related builds like Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365) focus on making use of Spelldancer.