Crown of the White Ravens and Martial Scripts

[Segev]

The Crown mentions having to meet the prerequisite in order to choose a Martial Maneuver from its repertoire. Is that referring ONLY to the "must know X maneuvers of this discipline already" rules, or is the initiator level a prerequisite, too?

Similarly, the Martial Scripts mention that they don't let you break the rules for using maneuvers, but the example is that you can't use a script to have more than one Stance up if you don't have some other feature that already lets you have up more than one Stance. Is using a maneuver for which your IL is too low breaking the normal rules in a way the Scripts do not allow?

The crux of what I'm getting at is: if using the maneuver-granting magic items, is your Initiator Level a limitation, or can you use a Crown or a Script to get a maneuver of a level you could not otherwise access? e.g. could a 10th level Paladin with a Master Devoted Spirit Amulet pick up the 8th level Devoted Spirit Stance Aura of Triumph (assuming he somehow had the prerequisite two Devoted Spirit maneuvers already), despite the fact that he is only IL 5? Could that same Paladin use a Martial Script of the same Stance despite his IL?

[Darrin]

The Crown mentions having to meet the prerequisite in order to choose a Martial Maneuver from its repertoire. Is that referring ONLY to the "must know X maneuvers of this discipline already" rules, or is the initiator level a prerequisite, too?


This question has not been definitively answered by WotC (or the unofficial ToB errata project (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0), either, curiously enough). I believe the consensus on these forums is Initiator Level is part of the prereqs, but you should ask your DM for a definitive ruling.



Similarly, the Martial Scripts mention that they don't let you break the rules for using maneuvers, but the example is that you can't use a script to have more than one Stance up if you don't have some other feature that already lets you have up more than one Stance. Is using a maneuver for which your IL is too low breaking the normal rules in a way the Scripts do not allow?


I think it's safe to say that having a high enough Initiator Level is part of the "normal usage rules for maneuvers". I can see maybe one or two threads that could possibly be tugged or mangled into a loophole of sorts, but they're probably not worth pursuing.



The crux of what I'm getting at is: if using the maneuver-granting magic items, is your Initiator Level a limitation, or can you use a Crown or a Script to get a maneuver of a level you could not otherwise access? e.g. could a 10th level Paladin with a Master Devoted Spirit Amulet pick up the 8th level Devoted Spirit Stance Aura of Triumph (assuming he somehow had the prerequisite two Devoted Spirit maneuvers already), despite the fact that he is only IL 5? Could that same Paladin use a Martial Script of the same Stance despite his IL?

Crown: Possibly, but probably not. Ask your DM.
Script: No.

[Segev]

A disappointing but not altogether unsurprising answer. Thanks for it, though.

Ironically, I think this makes the Crown and Scripts arguably worse than a simple magic item that uses Heroics to grant access to the Martial Maneuver or Martial Stance feats. Such an item would be 6*3000 = 18,000 gp for a continuously-active one (which wouldn't have the Crown's 24 hour atunement requirement). Only a little more than the Scholar level crown, and thus only a little more than a third the price of the Master level crown, grants access to the same suite of abilities (and arguably to any fighter feat you want, if you don't want a maneuver or stance) as the Master crown.

(Seriously, those 24 hour atunement requirements coupled with "and if you take it off, you have to do it again" sound ludicrously unpleasant. Do people regularly wear equipment even when sleeping and bathing?)

[HammeredWharf]

Most of the time, people use the 3K versions of those items. For example, one could use a 3K Shadow Hand item to get a Shadow Hand maneuver and fill the prereqs of Martial Stance [Assassin's Stance]. Or get a handy teleportation effect from Shadow Jaunt.

Also, stances aren't maneuvers. They only count as maneuvers for prereqs. So, you can't take a stance with the crown.

[Segev]

Also, stances aren't maneuvers. They only count as maneuvers for prereqs. So, you can't take a stance with the crown.

Huh, really? Are you sure? The Martial Scripts only talk about granting maneuvers, but give getting stances in their examples.

[HammeredWharf]

Stance: A stance is not a maneuver, but a specific fighting method that you maintain from round to round. [...] Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites for learning higher-level maneuvers, or qualifying for prestige classes or feats.

I don't know why martial scripts use stances as an example. A stance script would be very questionable, anyway, because stances don't have durations, so using a stance once could give it to you for the rest of your life by RAW.

[Chronos]

Quoth Segev:

Ironically, I think this makes the Crown and Scripts arguably worse than a simple magic item that uses Heroics to grant access to the Martial Maneuver or Martial Stance feats. Such an item would be 6*3000 = 18,000 gp for a continuously-active one (which wouldn't have the Crown's 24 hour atunement requirement).
The Crown of White Ravens has one huge advantage over your hypothetical item: The Crown exists, and your item does not. Your DM could, of course, decide to homebrew such an item, and he could decide to give it the price tag you mention... but he could also give it any other price tag he wanted. The prices given for custom magic items are only guidelines, not rules, and even if your DM chooses to follow those guidelines, the spell level is not the most relevant guideline here: The primary guideline is to price an item accordingly with the prices of already-existing items, in this case the Crown of White Ravens itself.

[Darrin]

Huh, really? Are you sure? The Martial Scripts only talk about granting maneuvers, but give getting stances in their examples.

This is something else we don't have a definitive answer for. ToB contradicts itself: it says stances only count as maneuvers for the purposes of prereqs, and in other places it refers to them as maneuvers without any qualifying circumstances. Basically, it's another "Ask your DM" issue.

By RAW, Martial Scripts can add a maneuver or stance to your repertoire for the duration of an encounter, because the text specifically says it can grant maneuvers. For Crown of the White Raven, it's not so clear... some DMs only allow these items to grant strikes/boosts/counters, while some allow them to grant a stances as well.

(You'd think the Unofficial ToB Errata Project would have fixed this by now...)

[Emperor Tippy]

1) Prerequisite is a specific thing in regards to martial maneuvers. That is why is has a specific line in maneuvers descriptions. Likewise check page 44 of ToB where it says that prerequisites are in addition to any level requirements.
RAW you need not have sufficient IL to be granted a maneuver by a Crown or the like so long as you meet the requirements in the "Prerequisites" line of that maneuvers description.

2) Page 5 of ToB gives the official descriptions of the various rules terms introduced by ToB. Stances is one of those terms and the first sentence of that description is "Stance: A stance is a special type of maneuver.". The Crown can grant stances because it does not specify that it can't and Stances are a subset of maneuvers.

[Segev]

While I obviously like the rules you quote better, Emperor Tippy, how do you reconcile that with the rules on p. 47 quoted by HammeredWharf?

[Emperor Tippy]

While I obviously like the rules you quote better, Emperor Tippy, how do you reconcile that with the rules on p. 47 quoted by HammeredWharf?

That the editing in ToB is terrible and that in the case of a conflict you should go to the glossary. That would be page 5, where ToB lays out the definitions for various new ToB mechanics.

[Segev]

Didn't know the glossary had the highest priority. Good to know for future reference. Thanks!

[Firechanter]

I suggest to regard Martial Scripts as non-existent; it's a really dumb concept.
"Hang on, I'll be with you in a minute to beat the living daylight out of you, I just need to unfold and read this piece of... whoopsie..."

As for the Crown and its kin, while it's great to have those items, the way they are written is also dumb. Strictly by RAW, you can NEVER undress again as long as you want to use them. Take off the crown to sleep? Bam the maneuver is lost. Take off those slippers for a trip to the bath house? No way, you'll just have to remain stanky. I call this the "Foul Bachelor Warblade".

Thus, I have houseruled these items to have their attunement work slightly differently: The attunement remains until you replace the item with a different one in the same slot. Or you can also drop the attunement willingly, usually if you want to use the item for a different maneuver.

What I'd also like to know is whether you could - for the appropriate price tag - have those items grant several maneuvers simultaneously. For example, a Minor Crown for 2 maneuvers should cost 100%+150% = 7500GP. Would you guys say that's okay?

[Curmudgeon]

A stance script would be very questionable, anyway, because stances don't have durations, so using a stance once could give it to you for the rest of your life by RAW.
If you sleep, the stance ends. From page 43 of Tome of Battle:
Your stance ends if you are rendered helpless for any reason. If you later recover, you must use another swift action to initiate your stance once again.
Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.