Good paladin prestige classes?

[Kaeso]

Paladins don't get a lot of love, but I still like the class. Even though the cleric and crusader both do it better, I love the concept of an unwavering, objectively good knight. A champion of righteousness who will selflessly and fearlessly put himself between the weak and the evil, one who will carry the burden of the entire world on his shoulders simply to see justice served.

Sadly, as I've said, they get no real love. Nowhere is this more true than the prestige class department. So I was wondering what some decent paladin prestige classes are. And please, don't use sorcadin builds. They're more sorcerer than they are paladin IMHO.

[Red Fel]

Behold the handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html). Prestige classes are listed towards the bottom. It also includes ACFs, racial substitution levels, and other useful nuggets.

With regard to specific PrCs, on these boards you tend to hear a lot about two particular ones: Hellreaver and Fist of Raziel.

Hellreaver (FC II) is less about being a "holy warrior" and more about "murdering the ever-loving crap out of Evil Outsiders." The capstone literally causes them to explode with holy energy. It's awesome. But the class neither requires nor advances divine casting; in fact, it can be entered even by a Fighter. Still, it's great to consider.

Fist of Raziel (BoED) is the ultimate smiting machine. It gives you a permanent Magic Circle Against Evil. It advances divine casting. Plus it gives you an additional (at max) 5 smites per day. On top of that, it enhances those smites (along with every smite you have from other sources) with potent effects, and ultimately renders your weapon automatically holy. It's a truly exceptional class if you're looking for the "bastion of good and destroyer of evil" archetype.

[Rebel7284]

I like divine crusader. :)

[ColossusCrusher]

Seconding Fist of Raziel, but the text on the smite-enhancing effects say "whenever the Fist of Raziel smites evil" - which means that they don't apply to things like the Ordained Champion's Smite ability. It'd have to be a Smite Evil ability. I might be wrong, but a strict reading would rule it that way. Still an amazing class though. I love it.

[lytokk]

I always liked Cavalier. Keeps advancing the mount, but not much else a paladin has to offer. If you're always dungeon crawling though, would be pretty useless to you.

[Kaeso]

Thanks for all the advice, guys. The Fist of Raziel looks really interesting. I'll check it out.

[3drinks]

I've always liked Knight of the Chalice from Complete Warrior. Might be more fluff but the image of being a demon-slayer has always appealed to me.

[Arc_knight25]

I personally liked dipping into an Arcane caster to get into Dragon Disciple. Lots of stat increases that you will be using(Str, Con, Cha) Also can add a lot of flavour to your background and build.

[Red Fel]

I've always liked Knight of the Chalice from Complete Warrior. Might be more fluff but the image of being a demon-slayer has always appealed to me.

Gah! I always forget KotC. Yeah, Knight of the Chalice is also a popular choice. It gives passive boosts to your melee and spellcasting against Evil Outsiders. It also has spellcasting, but note that it doesn't advance existing casting; it uses its own progression. (Which is odd, because it has spellcasting as a prerequisite.) But yeah, it's a very "exorcist"-style class.

[Flickerdart]

Knight of the Raven is a very cool class, but it's oriented more towards cleric entry. Still, a paladin can get in at level 5, so you never have the chance to get the mount - the only time I would consider multiclassing as a paladin without some way to progress your special mount. Seriously, that horse is gold - though it's best when it's not a horse. Check out the rules in the back of the DMG for alternative mounts, which allow you to pick any appropriately shaped creature (as long as its CR is under your paladin level -3, or -4 if it flies). With a cooperative DM that lets you use these rules (and let's face it, you shouldn't play a paladin under an uncooperative DM for obvious reasons) you can get something that actually makes you a threat on the battlefield.

[toapat]

Really there are more classes that boost paladin or its themes then probably anything else, but they largely fall into about 5 groups:

1: paladin upgrades: Grey Guard and Fist of Raizel, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Blackguard, Pious Templar, and Bone Knight. Straight upgrades to the paladin class features or versatility. RKV is even more broken for a paladin then a cleric, as a paladin can combine Divine Impetus with Sword of the Arcane Order to create a rather absurdly powerful nova.

2: Slayers of Evil: Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Raven. Hellraiser, Knight of the Challice, Vassal of Bahamut and several more. Dedicated anti-specific enemy PrCs. all have paladin fluff for their specific enemy.

3: Healer expansion: Hospitalier is the only one i can name right now, but i know a few continue LoH progression.

4: Horselord: Cavalier, Halfling Outrider, Wild plains Outrider, several more. When it comes to sitting on a horse, a paladin can become unmatched in sitting on top. It also allows them to kick all the ass.

[Peelee]

My wife's about to start long-haul campaign my friend and I are making up, and she's pretty well settled on Paladin for 6 levels, then Child of Mechanus (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Child_of_Mechanus_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)). It's in the homebrewed section, so you'd have to OK it with your DM, but it's a pretty sweet PrC. It also turns you into a walking incarnation of steampunk, which was a big draw to my wife; may or may not be for you.

[Faily]

Personally, I think Pious Templar is a worthy few-levels dip for Paladins. It gives 2 good Saves, full BAB and d10 HD, at first level it gives you Mettle, and you will gain a faster spell-progression than you would've normally recieved from straight Pally, iirc.

Pious Templar + Fist of Raziel make a nice combo for Paladins. Just make sure to take Paladin to level 5 to unlock the Charging Smite ACF (PHB2, I believe).

[toapat]

Personally, I think Pious Templar is a worthy few-levels dip for Paladins. It gives 2 good Saves, full BAB and d10 HD, at first level it gives you Mettle, and you will gain a faster spell-progression than you would've normally recieved from straight Pally, iirc.

Pious Templar + Fist of Raziel make a nice combo for Paladins. Just make sure to take Paladin to level 5 to unlock the Charging Smite ACF (PHB2, I believe).

honestly its better to just convince the DM to give you Pious templar as the base class. Barring the really fast spell progression, it wouldnt break anything to the same extent as with a paladin. Paladin 10/RKV 10 with SotAO can reasonably get a single turn of 4 standard actions to completely destroy a foe

[Angelalex242]

Fist of Raziel rules everything. Just don't forget to take 1 lousy cleric level so you can put all the Fist's Divine Casting into clerical casting instead of Paladin casting.

[Flickerdart]

RKV is even more broken for a paladin then a cleric, as a paladin can combine Divine Impetus with Sword of the Arcane Order to create a rather absurdly powerful nova.
If you intend to use SotAO with Battle Blessing, think again - spells you get from SotAO are not paladin spells, and gain no benefit from Battle Blessing.

[toapat]

If you intend to use SotAO with Battle Blessing, think again - spells you get from SotAO are not paladin spells, and gain no benefit from Battle Blessing.

Celerity is an immediate action. Considering you can have 2+1 maneuvers readied you can go pretty hard in a round that way

[Flickerdart]

Celerity is an immediate action. Considering you can have 2+1 maneuvers readied you can go pretty hard in a round that way
Celerity and Favor of the Martyr (for daze immunity) are both 4th level spells, of which you don't exactly get that many slots - and spreading yourself thin between basically all of the ability scores, you're not going to have very many bonus slots.

[toapat]

Celerity and Favor of the Martyr (for daze immunity) are both 4th level spells, of which you don't exactly get that many slots - and spreading yourself thin between basically all of the ability scores, you're not going to have very many bonus slots.

Dynamic Priest or Serenity deals with the 5 necessary attributes. although thicket is ridiculous i dont think its really worth going for either. Not that i dont want thicket just that theres no way to afford combat reflexes and the dex it needs.

[RedMage125]

Now imagining a Cleric 7/Prestige Paladin 3/Fist of Raziel 10...

+18 BAB
Cast spells as an 18th level cleric
Since you're LG, take the Planning and Glory domains, Glory getting you nice spells like Holy Smite, and the normally Paladin exclusive Holy Sword (5 levels before a Paladin can get it).
You'd only turn undead as a 10th level cleric, but that's what Divine feats are for...like DMM

That character would be a BEAST against evil outsiders and undead

[Sir Grave]

Theres also the Platinum Knight from Draconomicon and the Vassal of Bahamut from the Book of Exhalted Deeds if you're interested in smiting evil dragons. I've played with both of these prestige classes before, and let me tell you: there's nothing quite like a paladin going toe-to-toe with THE monster of D&D.:smallcool:

[Angelalex242]

The trick with Platinum Knight and Vassal of Bahamut...

is figuring out how to use both of them in an optimal way.

I should make a thread for that.

[Sir Grave]

The trick with Platinum Knight and Vassal of Bahamut...

is figuring out how to use both of them in an optimal way.

I should make a thread for that.

OOOH! Yes please! That would be awesome!:smallbiggrin:

[PraxisVetli]

I've pitched two of my players against a monk/cleric/prc pally/sacred Fist/fist of raziel, and he was hilariously fun to play.
So +1 to Sacred Fist, and a huge +1 to Fist of Raziel.

Also, always always a giant flaming +9001 to Hellreaver. That class has got to be one of the coolest ever.
It's so awesome, I squeal like a six year-old girl everytime I think about the day my gestalt Bardsader hits lvl 6.
I mean, it has everything.
Mechanics? Check.
Fluff? Check.
Awesome factor? So many checks.

[Red Fel]

Theres also the Platinum Knight from Draconomicon and the Vassal of Bahamut from the Book of Exhalted Deeds if you're interested in smiting evil dragons. I've played with both of these prestige classes before, and let me tell you: there's nothing quite like a paladin going toe-to-toe with THE monster of D&D.:smallcool:

I'm going to go in the other direction on these; they don't impress me.

First, the Platinum Knight. The plusses: It's a full BAB class with good Fort and Will saves, has extremely reasonable prereqs, and gives 5/10 caster progression (if you have caster levels coming into the class, which you don't have to). It grants natural armor, a Cha boost, a highly specialized Smite, a double-down on Divine Grace, and True Seeing 1/day.

The minuses: The Smite is overspecialized and underpowered. A normal Smite Evil adds Cha+1 damage, and is usable against any Evil enemy. If you went straight Paladin 20, you would have 5/day. If you went with Paladin 10/ FoR 10, you would have 8/day. But if you went Paladin 10/ PK 10, you would have 3 Smite Evils, with +Cha+1 damage, and 4 Smite Evil Dragons, with +Cha+2. That's not that useful an ability, and it gives you less than if you'd spend those levels in FoR. Further, 5/10 casting for a class with an already-slow casting progression is really not that impressive. Again, FoR gets you more. +2 natural armor isn't that hot. +2 Cha is certainly nice, and doubling down on your saves is helpful, but all-in-all, it's not a class that screams "effective dragon slayer."

Next, the Vassal of Bahamut. The biggest plus of this class is a pretty big plus: Dragonwrack. I admit that, for the money, this blows the doors off of Smite, even Smite Evil Dragons. Every time you hit an Evil Dragon, deal up to an additional 4d6. Every time it hits you, up to 2d6. Half of this is permanent hp drain. That's incredible. Admittedly, it doesn't sound like a lot, but once you realize that (1) it adds up and can never be healed (barring Wish or Miracle), and (2) a smart dragon will realize this and freak out, it becomes an incredibly potent power.

That's the good news. Now for the bad. First, it requires a Vow feat. Those are a hideous pain generally. Second, other features. It's kind of a bland class apart from Dragonwrack. It's like they didn't know what to do with it. Rather than advancing your spellcasting, it gives you a smattering of spells from a separate list. It dumps piles of loot on you, and a free suit of armor, and some bonus feats. It feels hastily cobbled-together, rather than cohesive.

Ultimately, it's a great dragonslaying class, but apart from requiring an LG alignment and Exalted feats, nothing about it actually says "Paladin." There are no smites. Paladin casting isn't progressed. No mount. None of your Paladin features. Technically, it doesn't even carry the typical "You may take levels of Paladin" disclaimer at the bottom. (At least I don't think it does. I'm away from book.)

If you play your Paladin as a champion of goodness against the generic forces of evil, neither Vassal nor Platinum is an effective class. Platinum gives you no additional utility apart from fighting Dragons; frankly, it barely even helps there. Vassal gives you very useful tools when it comes to dragonslaying, but when you're not up to that it's basically just a well-equipped Fighter with some useful divine spells.

[Karnith]

Technically, it doesn't even carry the typical "You may take levels of Paladin" disclaimer at the bottom. (At least I don't think it does. I'm away from book.)
Confirming that it does not. I think that it's fairly clear that the class is not intended for Paladins despite the lawful good alignment requirement; it looks intended for more mundane combat classes (particularly Fighter) that wish to become more Paladin-like. Also, another point on Dragonwrack - while permanent HP drain is neat and all, it's not that big of an advantage when used by PCs; most enemies that a melee-focused character is able to close with and attack are probably going to die soon anyway (or, less optimistically, are going to murder the PC), so permanently reducing the creature's HP isn't likely to have a noticeable impact. The extra damage is nice, certainly, and outpaces the bonus you'd get from, say, Dragonslayer, but I think generally I'd rather have more Smite uses and damage (say, from Fist of Raziel).

[Angelalex242]

Ya know...

Suppose you Gished Platinum Knight and Vassal of Bahamut. They're meant to do the same thing anyway.

Would a class with the powers of both be sufficiently badass to be a decent PrC?

And if that's still not enough, you can gish in Dragonslayer and Dragonrider into the build to be a metallic dragon's new best friend.

[Red Fel]

Ya know...

Suppose you Gished Platinum Knight and Vassal of Bahamut. They're meant to do the same thing anyway.

Would a class with the powers of both be sufficiently badass to be a decent PrC?

And if that's still not enough, you can gish in Dragonslayer and Dragonrider into the build to be a metallic dragon's new best friend.

Gished? Do you mean gestalted? Theurged? Is theurged even a verb? It's totally a verb now.

I would say no, the combination doesn't add up to much. One is an over-specialized and under-powered Paladin, and the other is a bag of loot and feats with Dragonwrack. The combination would just be an over-specialized and under-powered Paladin with a bag of loot and feats and Dragonwrack.

Adding Dragonslayer and Dragonrider? Well, Dragonslayer gets 5/10 spellcasting, an aura of courage that may or may not stack with the Paladin ability, a bonus to damage, a bonus to overcome SR (and why is a melee class casting spells that are stopped by SR?), some resistances and DR. Again, overspecialized, and not very Paladin-y (apart from the aura). Dragonrider... Is exactly what it says on the tin. It's a class that gets bonuses while riding a Dragon - although note that the class does not actually give you a Dragon to ride.

Honestly? A lot of the dragon-fighting classes don't impress all that much. Certainly, none of these four carry that certain Paladin flavor. Even if you threw them all into a pot, what you'd get would just be messy. Bunch of feats, nice armor, a few tricks while riding a dragon, a thoroughly confused spell list, some Smites and Dragonwrack. It's not cohesive, it's not dreadfully effective, it's not all that impressive.