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View Full Version : Gamer Drama I need to borrow an angel...



RandomLunatic
2014-06-13, 04:35 PM
…Because both of my shoulders are currently occupied by LE outsiders.

God I’m a nerd.

Slight vent warning. TL;DR version in the spoiler below if you are pressed for time.

****ty GM’s ****ty GMing drove me to quit his game. Is it worth the fallout of making things easier on his remaining players while also tweaking his nose out of joint?

So this group of guys I play with had one guy, whom I shall designate Sam in order to protect the innocent, pitched a neat campaign idea with a homebrew system. And so I was really excited when I joined.

Then the honeymoon ended and I gradually started realizing I was really upset with the way Sam was running the game.

For starters, Sam belongs to the school of DMing that is absolutely petrified that players will, if given any information at all, metagame the game into the ground. So combat that, Sam goes to positively insane lengths to keep players in the dark at all times. To give you an idea just how little Sam tells players, grab an RPG you have never played or even read before and open to the weapons table. Now cover up everything except the names of the weapons, and the prices for a small, random selection of weapons. The prices for the other weapons can be revealed by paying a small fee, but it will probably cost more than a comparable weapon with an already revealed price. The only way to reveal the stats of a weapon is to buy it, and even then, your ability to make sense of the data is limited to reading the abbreviations at the top of the table columns and guessing. This is how you buy gear in Sam’s games, and it is not even Sam at his craziest. In another campaign of his, which I was not in, he actively refused to tell players stuff their PCs not only should but needed to know, instead urging them to “figure it out!” While telling them no more than usual.

Sam is also nearly 100% resistant to player feedback. Usually he just ignores it in favor of letting The Old Guard jump down the throat of anyone making constructive criticism and call them five different kinds of dumbass. If he feels particularly verbose, he will point out that our modifications ignore the entire back end of the game (NO **** SHERLOCK, YOU BARELY LET US SEE THE FRONT!) and it would ruin everything forever. Two rounds of this was all it took to cure me of trying to improve the game at all.

Then there is his running of the sessions proper. Fights ranged in difficulty from very hard to friggin’ impossible, yet awarded almost no treasure or XP. We usually lost more than we gained. And seeing how almost every turn became a proof of Murphy’s Law, I cannot help but question if Sam was “cooking” the dice.

The part that got to me most, though, was the lying. On several occasions, while attempting to pry rulings for things I wanted to do out of Sam (which would be an excellent candidate for the 13th labor of Hercules), several times he straight up lied to me about the rule, and then when I got around to doing the thing, he sprung the correct rule on me, and adamantly refused to allow takebacks. I was very, very, pissed each time.

So I finally hit my breaking point, and decided to call in Captain Haveachat. I sent Sam an E-mail detailing the problems I was having, which is mostly a more detailed version of the things I just covered above, with less snark. I was not hopeful even as I wrote it (see “Not responsive to player input”), but Sam still managed to fall short of my expectations. Instead of trying to work things out privately, or even just a “put up or shut up” response, he publicly presented an extremely distorted version of my list to the group and wrote it off as, and I quote, “a hissy fit”. I will at least give him credit for not identifying the perpetrator.

Since he addressed a grand total of zero of the problems I had, I quit. Which finally brings me back around to my opening line. See, despite all of Sam’s efforts, I was able to reverse-engineer a non-insignificant portion of the system. I kept it under my hat because it gave me an edge, and since Sam seemed determined to screw me over at every opportunity, I needed all the edge I could get. Since I obviously no longer need it, it has occurred to me to give my notes to the other players. So I have one devil telling me to do it would make it easier for the other players and help prove a point I once made to Sam about how players knowing things is not the end of the world. The other shoulder has a devil telling me to do it because SCREW YOU SAM. SCREW. YOU.

What I lack is someone telling me to take the high road, and I am wondering if it is just because I am bad person or if Sam really sucks that badly.

Airk
2014-06-13, 04:47 PM
I think really this comes down to how much you liked the other players in the game. By the sound of it, they were none too supportive, so I don't see why they and Sam don't deserve each other. I would refrain from releasing the rules.

SirKibblesnbits
2014-06-13, 05:18 PM
if i was i your situation, id get the support of the other players to help with sam, gather together and say that you guys wont play if things dont change. you cant be dm without players.
of course if they dont care then i guess just leave them be, best not to release the rules.

Gavran
2014-06-13, 05:51 PM
It doesn't sound like the other players care one way or another. I think was just a bad group for you overall. Move on. :)

Lorsa
2014-06-13, 05:53 PM
Just walk away. That group is not worth your time or effort.

Raimun
2014-06-13, 06:07 PM
Were you the only one in the group that had a problem with that? I would imagine most anyone (except totally new players, who don't know any better) would have words with the GM after stuff like that.

I guess such an information blackout about the rules of the game would be detrimental to roleplaying, since you can't have a rough estimate about the limits of your capabilities... especially if he also tweaked the hardness of challenges.

About your question, if you care about any of the other players, ask them if they want your info.

Kalmageddon
2014-06-13, 06:19 PM
I don't think it's worth it, it sounds like you are done.
In the words of Lord Humungus...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttKJwvFIgw

Jay R
2014-06-13, 06:51 PM
A. Based on your description of Sam, I would expect the game to change as soon as the players have your work.

B. Even if having your work helps, the game will still be broken. There is nothing to be gained by replacing Broken Game Mark 1 with Broken Game Mark 2.

I can simulate an angel when the situation calls for a Lawful Good approach, but my advice in this case is purely practical. Don't do more work that will help nobody. You left this game because you didn't want to interact with it.

Therefore, stop interacting with it.

Ionbound
2014-06-13, 06:56 PM
Jay, the sticking point I have with your point is that we don't know is the system is broken, or the GM is just being truly awful. While I agree for all intents and purposes that OP should certainly walk away from the game he's playing right now, if he likes the System, then it's worth trying to back-engineer, play with it with some people unrelated to this group, and actually playtest it properly.

RandomLunatic
2014-06-13, 07:42 PM
I think really this comes down to how much you liked the other players in the game. By the sound of it, they were none too supportive, so I don't see why they and Sam don't deserve each other. I would refrain from releasing the rules.With the exception of The Old Guard, I like these guys. Even Sam is pretty chill when he is not GMing.


Were you the only one in the group that had a problem with that? I would imagine most anyone (except totally new players, who don't know any better) would have words with the GM after stuff like that.

I guess such an information blackout about the rules of the game would be detrimental to roleplaying, since you can't have a rough estimate about the limits of your capabilities... especially if he also tweaked the hardness of challenges.

About your question, if you care about any of the other players, ask them if they want your info.There were a couple of guys who were more vocal about their dissatisfaction. The Old Guard eventually drove most of them to leave and form a new group on a different night, which I also go to.

LokiRagnarok
2014-06-14, 12:55 AM
I am confused. Who is The Old Guard?

DM Nate
2014-06-14, 05:26 AM
People would pay good money to see a leaked version of Sam's homebrew system.

Wait, no they wouldn't.

The Oni
2014-06-14, 02:40 PM
If you like the GM and the other players are having fun, there's no reason to mess with his game. Really. Sounds like you just have a diametrically opposed playstyle (and to be fair, I'm not a huge fan of in-the-dark-constantly games either, but some are. For that, I'd just go play Paranoia).

Mr Beer
2014-06-14, 04:36 PM
Just walk away, trying to get him back by revealing his rules or whatever is just silly.

TheThan
2014-06-14, 05:35 PM
I’d have some fun with it. Tell him you’ve been working on a system and you’d like his impute, then show him your notes you made on his. Watch is reaction. Then tell him that knowing the rules of the game is not a bad thing. Since you’ve already left his game it won’t hurt.

Glimbur
2014-06-14, 08:49 PM
I’d have some fun with it. Tell him you’ve been working on a system and you’d like his impute, then show him your notes you made on his. Watch is reaction. Then tell him that knowing the rules of the game is not a bad thing. Since you’ve already left his game it won’t hurt.

I was all set to advocate just walking away, but this idea also sounds like fun. It is kind of rude to reveal a bunch of information he is trying to keep secret, though I agree that it is silly to keep the base rules secret. Be classy and don't leak your reverse-engineering; showing him what you managed to figure out might be amusing or just keep you interacting with something you don't enjoy. And it might make Sam not like you as much, which sounds like it would be a problem.

Alberic Strein
2014-06-15, 07:18 AM
I’d have some fun with it. Tell him you’ve been working on a system and you’d like his impute, then show him your notes you made on his. Watch is reaction. Then tell him that knowing the rules of the game is not a bad thing. Since you’ve already left his game it won’t hurt.

Yes.

That is just so completely beautiful. And karmic.

Jay R
2014-06-15, 08:57 AM
I’d have some fun with it. Tell him you’ve been working on a system and you’d like his impute, then show him your notes you made on his. Watch is reaction. Then tell him that knowing the rules of the game is not a bad thing. Since you’ve already left his game it won’t hurt.

Sam has not been shown to be analytical, fair-minded, or to have a sense of humor. The reactions I expect from this are either for him to triumphantly believe it's all wrong because of one incorrect detail, or to get extremely irate.

"nearly 100% resistant to player feedback"
"several times he straight up lied to me"
"he publicly presented an extremely distorted version of my list to the group and wrote it off as, and I quote, “a hissy fit”."
"he addressed a grand total of zero of the problems I had"

There's no point provoking a reaction from somebody whose reactions you're trying to get away from

Kish
2014-06-15, 09:10 AM
Walk away. If any of the other players express dissatisfaction with the game to you, respond supportively (along the lines of, "Yeah, I left because I wasn't having fun and didn't see that changing"). If you'd spent the whole time you were playing announcing the rules you figured out, or even privately sending them to the other players right after you figured them out, I wouldn't see a problem with that, but if you approach the other players with, "So, I didn't share this with the group when I was playing because it gave me an edge, but now that I'm not playing anymore I don't need the edge and I want to screw Sam over," you'll look petty.

Dorian Gray
2014-06-15, 09:30 AM
Well, if you want non-lawful advice...
You could put what you have of the rules on this site. I estimate it would take the Playground community about thirty minutes of dedicated effort to exploit the rules to create a 1st level character with the power of several gods. I would certainly help, just for the challenge of exploiting a new ruleset.

Why yes, I am one of those players DMs complain about. :smalltongue:

RandomLunatic
2014-06-15, 12:31 PM
I am confused. Who is The Old Guard?A small but very vocal cadre of players who have been around forever and can be counted on to rally around Sam. They are also raging douchemongers.


I’d have some fun with it. Tell him you’ve been working on a system and you’d like his impute, then show him your notes you made on his. Watch is reaction. Then tell him that knowing the rules of the game is not a bad thing. Since you’ve already left his game it won’t hurt.


Sam has not been shown to be analytical, fair-minded, or to have a sense of humor. The reactions I expect from this are either for him to triumphantly believe it's all wrong because of one incorrect detail, or to get extremely irate.

"nearly 100% resistant to player feedback"
"several times he straight up lied to me"
"he publicly presented an extremely distorted version of my list to the group and wrote it off as, and I quote, “a hissy fit”."
"he addressed a grand total of zero of the problems I had"

There's no point provoking a reaction from somebody whose reactions you're trying to get away fromJay has the right of it. I also fear such a move would drive Sam to even greater depths of paranoid secrecy, even if I cannot imagine how such a thing is possible.


Well, if you want non-lawful advice...
You could put what you have of the rules on this site. I estimate it would take the Playground community about thirty minutes of dedicated effort to exploit the rules to create a 1st level character with the power of several gods. I would certainly help, just for the challenge of exploiting a new ruleset.

Why yes, I am one of those players DMs complain about. :smalltongue:I ma going to pass because I have been trying to avoid identifying any of the parties involved, which will obviously go out the window if I post a homebrew system.

Mr Beer
2014-06-15, 05:50 PM
There's no point provoking a reaction from somebody whose reactions you're trying to get away from

So much this

veti
2014-06-15, 06:16 PM
If you like the GM and the other players are having fun, there's no reason to mess with his game. Really. Sounds like you just have a diametrically opposed playstyle (and to be fair, I'm not a huge fan of in-the-dark-constantly games either, but some are. For that, I'd just go play Paranoia).

This. The style of GMing you describe - isn't necessarily "wrong". Keeping the players in the dark about the rules is a perfectly valid way to play. I bet early D&D games looked a bit like that - before the rules got published and anyone could buy them. Heck, from where I'm sitting, real life works pretty much like that.

But it's not for you. That's fine, that's your choice. So walk away and don't look back.

As for the rules you've worked out: either they're "correct" (i.e. a true reflection of what Sam has written down) or - and this is a possibility you absolutely need to remember - they're not. Either way, I wouldn't share them with the other players unless they take the initiative to ask you about them. It just makes you the douche.

icefractal
2014-06-19, 08:21 PM
This. The style of GMing you describe - isn't necessarily "wrong". Keeping the players in the dark about the rules is a perfectly valid way to play.Well ...
Some of it might be ok. But things like lying about the rules for an action? Or not saying what the prices for things were? (How did that one even makes sense? Were they buying them from an trickster spirit or something?) Or taking a "my way or the highway" approach and dismissing all problems as "whining"?

Those things aren't a "game style", they're just bull****. Even in Paranoia, they'd be bull****.


Anyway - regarding the notes -
I'd give them to anyone who wanted them. Don't just send them out unsolicited, but if you're in another group with any of the players (presumably not the "old guard"), you could mention that while you were playing you happened to reverse engineer some of the system. If they don't ask for it, fine. If they do, you can give it to them.

Mr Beer
2014-06-19, 08:28 PM
Well ...
Some of it might be ok. But things like lying about the rules for an action? Or not saying what the prices for things were? (How did that one even makes sense? Were they buying them from an trickster spirit or something?) Or taking a "my way or the highway" approach and dismissing all problems as "whining"?

Those things aren't a "game style", they're just bull****. Even in Paranoia, they'd be bull****.

Sounds terrible to me but OP said the GM has an OG posse that rabidly defend him, so whatever...they seem to be having fun and the others who weren't have bailed anyway. Let 'em be.

kyoryu
2014-06-19, 09:36 PM
Clearly your expectations of gaming differ from his.

Just walk away. There's nothing for you to gain by creating more drama. If the other guys are cool, and even Sam when he's not GMing, just say "yeah, you know, this game isn't really my style. I might play something else with you guys, but I'm bowing out of this one."

There is absolutely nothing for you to gain by going aggro.