Department of Redundancy Department

[Angelalex242]

If a Paladin chooses the noble kit, he has proficiency with mounts (land) twice.

What happens with the extra mounts proficiency?

Does he get mounts (air) to go with it?

Does he get double his proficiency bonus with mounts (land)?

Or does he get an extra language, as if he'd only gotten two proficiencies?

Hint:For my campaign, at least, 'you lose a proficiency' is not an acceptable answer.

[Townopolis]

In my campaign, I directed everyone to the "create a background" sidebar that explains what the actual components of a background are and let them design their own. Most folks just took one of the samples and fiddled with the proficiencies a bit to suit their individual tastes.

Alternately, you could say that the noble paladin gets expertise in land mounts (which is apparently going to just be 2x proficiency mod in the final game, so you've actually already thought of this). Normally, only rogues and bards have access to expertise at all, and this would allow a way for other classes to pick that up in one or two skills by doubling down on core elements of their character concept. That could be interesting.

[da_chicken]

The background pdf of my playtest documents says if you gain proficiency in a skill from two sources, you instead choose a different skill proficiency. That, combined with the "design your own background" kind of reinforces the idea that the rules in 5e are morphable by design. The rules aren't meant to be carved in stone.

For my campaigns, I'll just tell my players to choose a tool proficiency that they can justify with their background or class. Maybe the character served as a healer instead of training to ride with the church. Perhaps he learned herbalism, or spent spare time fishing, mountain climbing, or studying navigation tools. I would probably question a noble paladin who wanted to take disguise kit, poisoner's kit, or thieves tools. Nobles tend to hire that kind of thing out, and it doesn't seem like something a devotion paladin would be interested in.


Alternately, you could say that the noble paladin gets expertise in land mounts (which is apparently going to just be 2x proficiency mod in the final game, so you've actually already thought of this). Normally, only rogues and bards have access to expertise at all, and this would allow a way for other classes to pick that up in one or two skills by doubling down on core elements of their character concept. That could be interesting.

I would avoid this simply because it allows all characters to access class features meant to make rogue and bard distinct.

[rlc]

I haven't really seen too much from the packets except for what i've read, but does proficiency or expertise = advantage? If not, while the rules say pick something else, you can always go with expertise as was already said, or just turn it into advantage while mounted (which i kind of planned to make a background for on day 1, but if it already exists, i won't have to).

[Chaosvii7]

I haven't really seen too much from the packets except for what i've read, but does proficiency or expertise = advantage? If not, while the rules say pick something else, you can always go with expertise as was already said, or just turn it into advantage while mounted (which i kind of planned to make a background for on day 1, but if it already exists, i won't have to).

Proficiency means you add your proficiency bonus(which is listed in every class' chart) to rolls with that skill. Expertise currently means you get a +5 bonus on top of that, but in the final version of the game it now means that you get double the proficiency bonus with that skill. Rogues and Bards are currently the only ones with access to Expertise, to keep their versatile array of skills unique to them. Everybody gets proficiency with skills of some sort, though.

[Angelalex242]

To be fair, the only thing a Paladin (or Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian) could ever have expertise with is Landbased mounts.

It's not like the rogue or the bard is going to feel overshadowed if the melee classes all have expertise on horseback.

But if you can pick a different skill...

Why not have Mounts (Airborne) or something cool like that? That means you can hop on a Pegasus as soon as you can find one. Or a griffon. Or something.

Best of all if that noble Paladin someday gets to hop on a DRAGON.

[rlc]

You could make an argument for every class to have expertise in at least one skill, like warlords and knowledge (warfare), for example.

[Angelalex242]

Well, expertise for non rogues and bards should depend entirely on redundancies in class and background.

If your background includes riding, and your class includes riding, then you can be an expert rider. If your background and class both include persuasion, you can be an expert persuader too.

But when background and class don't stack, you have a wider ranger of skills, but you're less good at any one of them.

Of course, to make it fair, there should then be a 'mastery' option available to bards and rogues, where they can get +10 if their background, class abilities, and expertise all stack together to create a 'best in the world' at a specific task.

[da_chicken]

Why not have Mounts (Airborne) or something cool like that? That means you can hop on a Pegasus as soon as you can find one. Or a griffon. Or something.

Has your first level Paladin had some chance to train with flying mounts? That strikes me as very unlikely in most settings. Flying mounts typically cost several orders of magnitude more than land mounts and are so rare as to be nearly unique. If you owned a flying mount that cost literally 100 times what the average soldier makes in a year and it was the only one in your entire kingdom, would you use it to train first level characters?


Of course, to make it fair, there should then be a 'mastery' option available to bards and rogues, where they can get +10 if their background, class abilities, and expertise all stack together to create a 'best in the world' at a specific task.

So triple proficiency with the new expertise rules? That's not a good idea. That means characters will get +23 to the die roll without magical aid (+6 proficiency * 3 + 5 ability modifier). That's running off the end of the RNG again, which is a problem both 3e and 4e had.

With DC 35 listed as "Nearly Impossible" and described as requiring demigods and creatures more powerful than that to accomplish, that seems outside the realms of mundane skill. This would be on the order of riding a mount across the heads of your own army without harming any of them, remaining hidden in broad daylight standing in an open field while holding a flame tongue sword less than 50' from those searching for you, or persuading a town guard that you're not doing anything wrong as you thrust a dagger into his stomach. With a bonus this large you would be able to accomplish such a task 2 times in 5.

At best, I would say mastery always gives you advantage on die rolls. Adding more bonus would be problematic.

[Angelalex242]

Well, it is a NOBLE Paladin.

Just how wealthy IS that Paladin's family, anyway? Wealthy enough to afford a Pegasus or a Griffon?

Very possibly. Sure, it'd probably take the son of a Duke, at least, to be that wealthy, but I don't see anything in the Noble Background specifying the maximum title the noble can have. (Though presumably King/Prince is too much)