Mounted Combat (In General, not the skill)

[LordHavelock]

So, my question is in regards to two specific Feats, the RAW rules being very clear, but perhaps somewhat . . . exploitable to my mind. Now, as a GM I'm of the mind that mounted combat is a pretty niche specialization as it stands, with lots of times it's just not possible, applicable, or practical, but as a player, I am absolutely in love with this particular cavalier concept I've been trying to run in a game to completion for ages (so far he's only ever managed a few scenes till the game died on me). Suffice to say, I have a conflict of interests as the two feats are separately or in conjunction very favorable for a cavalier, or anyone else taking advantage of the classic image of a mounted warrior/knight/etc. and I want to put it to you all whether these make sense to you as fair rulings, obviously exploitative, not what Paizo intended, yadda-yadda-yadda.

The Feats in question are Furious Focus (on the Power Attack Tree) and Death From Above (standalone Feat). As for how they interact with mounted combat, well . . .

1) Furious Focus- So Read-As-Written Text for the Feat is as follows: "When you are wielding a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon with two hands, and using the Power Attack feat, you do not suffer Power Attack’s penalty on melee attack rolls on the first attack you make each turn." My question is how this relates to the use of a Lance. Clearly this is a gem of a Feat at lower levels when Power Attack is most valuable and you only have one attack each round anyway, but the benefit to utilizing this particular Feat on a Charge, with a Lance, while Mounted, seems to increase it's value several fold to my mind. The advantage being that the +2 bonus you receive from Power Attack is multiplied just like the rest of your damage with a lance on a charge (I'm fairly certain about that point), and since a Lance is a Two-Handed weapon, the opportunity to use it every time you charge at no penalty to attack seems simply too good to pass up. The text however does seem to suggest that the spirit of this feat is intended specifically for wielding weapons in both hands (whether necessary or not) rather than a couched lance. What say you playgrounders?

2) Death from Above- This one seems mostly for flavor, and seriously niche as it specifically applies to "Whenever you charge an opponent from higher ground, or from above while flying . . ." the latter of which might be more common at higher levels, but for the most part isn't something players are usually in a position to take advantage of (unless they're really making a point of it, using barricades, etc.). Thing is, if you read through the rules for mounted combat (not the Feat, the subsection of the Combat Rules) it states "When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground." Now, I know plenty of players (and GMs) who forget to apply that particular +1 bonus, because it's easy to forget, but assuming you're riding a Large horse, that +1 applies to every Medium creature you could care to face. Furthermore, it's explicitly stated as an application of the bonus from Higher Ground. So, by taking the Death from Above Feat, that would give you a +5 bonus on all charge attacks you make, yes?

Let me know what you guys think, I'd love to start a little discourse about this, as mounted characters so rarely get a spotlight and in my humble opinion could benefit from a little optimization.

Who knows, I might take what can be learned here and write up my own Mounted Combat Guide for Cavaliers and the like.

[avr]

Even if you can and do use it in one hand a lance is a two-handed weapon in PF. So yes, you can use Furious Focus with a lance.

On point 2 I think you're right also but I'd have to check the books to be sure.

[Snowbluff]

I just want to point out that Furious Focus is a huge waste. You want to grab pretty much all of the mounted combat feats first. If this was 3.5, I'd strongly suggest it.

Death From Above should work with mounted combat. Depending on your level, Furious Focus might be better.

Paladins make better mounted fighters than cavaliers, since they can add Saddle Surge and Litany of Righteousness as buffs. These two spells are incredibly powerful for mounted combat (melee and archery), and are available to most divine classes via Samsaran's Mystic Past Life. Clerics are pretty good for this, especially with the animal domain or the chivalry inquisition for a mount. A roc is ideal, for the high fly speed.

I've played a few Halfing Paladins, and I can tell you that mounted combat is pretty good. The lance's reach is very handy.

I made Cleric2/ZenArcher1 build for an adventure path that will utilize Abundant Ammunition + (Greater) Named Bullet, Saddle Surge, and Litany of Righteousness at higher levels to get x6 CL to damage.

[LordHavelock]

Even if you can and do use it in one hand a lance is a two-handed weapon in PF. So yes, you can use Furious Focus with a lance.

On point 2 I think you're right also but I'd have to check the books to be sure.

Right? I'm pretty sure the only catch on Death From Above is that it applies only to the rider, not the mount, and of course, only so long as whatever they're charging is Medium or smaller.


I just want to point out that Furious Focus is a huge waste. You want to grab pretty much all of the mounted combat feats first. If this was 3.5, I'd strongly suggest it.

Death From Above should work with mounted combat. Depending on your level, Furious Focus might be better.

Paladins make better mounted fighters than cavaliers, since they can add Saddle Surge and Litany of Righteousness as buffs. These two spells are incredibly powerful for mounted combat (melee and archery), and are available to most divine classes via Samsaran's Mystic Past Life.

What makes you say so about Furious Focus? I mean, I obviously wouldn't take it before Spirited Charge, but I'd probably take it before say Trample. Unless you're saying you think it loses it's utility too quickly (with Power Attack) and should be dropped in favor of getting . . . what Improved Overrun that much earlier? What other Mounted Combat Feats are you talking about? In my humble opinion, the Tree drops off fast after Spirited Charge (Wheeling Charge and Charge Through being the other standouts).

Death from Above though, definitely seems like a good investment, especially at lower level when you're likely to face more enemies who are smaller than you and your mount. Assuming you can figure out a way to let your mount Fly or get an outright flying mount, it should continue to serve pretty well into higher levels (anywhere there's room to use it . . . said every mounted character ever).

Phew! Saddle Surge is almost outrageously good for a Paladin in the saddle, but is Divine Bond with a mount the definitive way to go for Pallys? Don't have a lot of experience playing them, and assuming you want to have a horse ever it's a great spell, but the Cavalier offers a lot more flexibility, and I don't just mean the fact you can play one of an alignment South of Lawful Good. Personally, I think if the goal is really to optimize, you have to take advantage of the Gendarme Archetype, which offers you Feat progression more akin to a Fighter in exchange for the

[Snowbluff]

I mean the Trick Riding line, Spirited Charge, and Ride-by Attack. Improved Overrun kind of sucks, since you're enemy may not opt to judge let you through.

DFA is great for low levels.

If you're unhappy with the mount options, Skill Focus and then Eldritch Heritage for the Sylvan Bloodline would get you can actual AnC (not the limited Cavalier/Pally options) without being a Druid or Cleric. The RAW is a bit iffy this way.

Paladin is much better in my opinion. The spells and class features are very much conducive to a survivable party environment.

[LordHavelock]

I mean the Trick Riding line, Spirited Charge, and Ride-by Attack. Improved Overrun kind of sucks, since you're enemy may not opt to judge let you through.

DFA is great for low levels.

If you're unhappy with the mount options, Skill Focus and then Eldritch Heritage for the Sylvan Bloodline would get you can actual AnC (not the limited Cavalier/Pally options) without being a Druid or Cleric. The RAW is a bit iffy this way.

Paladin is much better in my opinion. The spells and class features are very much conducive to a survivable party environment.

We're in agreement then about Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attack being the peaks of that tree. Trick Riding though? But you need to be wearing Light Armor to take advantage of it don't you? So Mithral Breastplate would work out for that I guess, which is a great option overall, but supposing you absolutely have to play that Adamantine Full Plate character?

It's not that I'm unsatisfied with Mount Options at all . . . Actually I take that back, but it's in a very specific way, as I really wish there was an easier way to get oneself a Pegasus or a Nightmare for a mount. Failing that, is there an easy Magic Item solution to give a grounded mount some altitude?

I'm not going to argue that the Paladin isn't the higher tier class all around, I'm more just looking for the best options when you want to play something with a more martial feel (or you know, you don't want to play Lawful Good).

[Snowbluff]

Trick Riding is a prereq for Mounted Skirmisher. Though, you can not get the multiplied damage from your lance more than once.

I'll look into items. Horeshoes of Flame are what I would suggest if this was 3.5.

EDIT: Improved Eldritch Heritage. Heavy Horse with a +4 Cha item and a stat point in Int (for enough to take whatever feats you want). Celestial Bloodline or the like for wings.

[LordHavelock]

Trick Riding is a prereq for Mounted Skirmisher. Though, you can not get the multiplied damage from your lance more than once.

I'll look into items. Horeshoes of Flame are what I would suggest if this was 3.5.

Ahhhh, I see now. A full attack at mounted speed is always going to have statistical advantage over a charge. Plus, you can wear your armor while doing it.

Is there anything wrong with just making what would otherwise be humanoid shoes into horse-shoes?

Eldritch Heritage huh? Seems straightforward enough (for what is already a work around) but it seems like it might be easier just to ask your gm about getting on friendly terms with a Pegasus (or Nightmare if that's the way you swing).

[Snowbluff]

Ahhhh, I see now. A full attack at mounted speed is always going to have statistical advantage over a charge. Plus, you can wear your armor while doing it. You get the full attack even while charging. :smalltongue:

I think Spirited Charge was never errata'd, so you still get the x2 for the subsequent attacks.


Is there anything wrong with just making what would otherwise be humanoid shoes into horse-shoes?
I did a little digging, and here are the legal item slots for animals. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#table-magic-item-slots-for-animals) It looks to me that you are supposed to get the feet slot items made into horseshoes, but they may be referring to horseshoe-specific items.


Eldritch Heritage huh? Seems straightforward enough (for what is already a work around) but it seems like it might be easier just to ask your gm about getting on friendly terms with a Pegasus (or Nightmare if that's the way you swing).

It would be easier, but you have to remember that putting non-RAW stuff in a handbook could be messy.

[grarrrg]

EDIT: Improved Eldritch Heritage. Heavy Horse with a +4 Cha item and a stat point in Int (for enough to take whatever feats you want).

What does Imp. Eldritch get you from Sylvan bloodline?
Neither the 3rd nor 9th bloodline powers help your mount, and you still have the -2 Effective level penalty.

Wait...you mean have the _horse_ take Eldritch?
...nice.
Would take forever for Imp-Eldritch though. The Horse wouldn't qualify for Imp until you are at least level 13 (then the Horse has 11HD).
But if you run into strict RAW it won't work, because Eld-Heritage requires "character level".


Another less CHA intensive way for any character to get a companion/mount is Animal Ally (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally).

[Snowbluff]

A monster isn't an NPC? NPCs are not characters?

The horse needs to get flying via Improved Eldritch Heritage. :smalltongue:

Nice catch on Animal Ally.

[torrasque666]

If you're unhappy with the mount options, Skill Focus and then Eldritch Heritage for the Sylvan Bloodline would get you can actual AnC (not the limited Cavalier/Pally options) without being a Druid or Cleric. The RAW is a bit iffy this way.

I remember seeing a FAQ that you can't use Eldritch Heritage to get Wildblooded Bloodlines using either the "they don't technically have a skill associated with them" or "they are an archetype on a bloodline, not a bloodline itself" arguments.

[grarrrg]

Nice catch on Animal Ally.
Upsides to Animal Ally:
You don't need CHA
Nature Soul is mostly better than Skill Focus (Knowledge (Nature))
"Effective level penalty" is only -3 (whereas Sylvan is -3 and Eld-Heritage is another -2)

Downsides to Animal Ally:
Limited Companion choices
Eld-Heritage can be taken at level 3, Ally can't be taken until level 5 (unless you can get a free floating feat at level 4, or Retrain)


I remember seeing a FAQ that you can't use Eldritch Heritage to get Wildblooded Bloodlines using either the "they don't technically have a skill associated with them" or "they are an archetype on a bloodline, not a bloodline itself" arguments.

There is definitely NOT a FAQ on the subject.
There _might_ be an 'official' forum post, though last I checked there wasn't anything official yet.

And the main argument against, as far as I understand it, has to do with Sylvan replacing the Bloodline Power and the Arcana, and Eld-Heritage doesn't give you an Arcana, thus you can't 'trade' it for Sylvan.